Posted this on the other thread, thought it would bear repeating:
And by the by....
If the person extending the so-called "apology" to me was PAID MINISTRY STAFF at the time of the offense, I would be asking specifically if they are specifically NOW acting in the capacity of an agent for The Way International in the act of the apology, or speaking solely for themselves.
If they are acting in the capacity of an agent for The Way International in extending their apology, then TWI might be seen to be admitting guilt. And if they do, there's a legal door that just opened. So perhaps they had better get all their ducks in a row before they let people loose to apologize...
I agree with the second part of Lornas' post about the blessings of abs, but disagree with her first part about the apologies.
IMO, what went on (and still is) is 'spiritual'. It is a 'spiritual problem' they had/have, so without any 'godly repentance' which I believe is much more than an " I'm sorry" statement , it is nothing less than another 'sham'.
You and I and they know when there is real 'godly sorrow unto repentance'. How about a bit of 'tears' and 'hand-wringing' and yeah..even a bit of sackcloth and ashes and I might begin to believe them.
Look, I am definitely a man who respects and almost always accepts a sincere apology. Heck, I've had to give my fair share over the years, and probably will.
Still, I believe that apologies should be given because it is the right thing to do, and not to win back others who left. That seems too much like the proverbial "Trojan Horse." And, if now the innies are apologizing to the outies, how sincere are they really? They had to come up in an official STS teaching, by an approved minister, before people had their marching orders to go apologize? Not to be insulting, but are the twi rank-and-file folks really that slow? Sheep to the extent of not doing it until led to by an official?
So yes - I would accept a sincere apology. Yet I will have doubts about what constitutes "sincerity." I'll be holding my breath, in a patriotic fashion (turning red, white, and blue) while I await the golden apology.
Still, I believe that apologies should be given because it is the right thing to do, and not to win back others who left. That seems too much like the proverbial "Trojan Horse." And, if now the innies are apologizing to the outies, how sincere are they really? They had to come up in an official STS teaching, by an approved minister, before people had their marching orders to go apologize? Not to be insulting, but are the twi rank-and-file folks really that slow? Sheep to the extent of not doing it until led to by an official?
So yes - I would accept a sincere apology. Yet I will have doubts about what constitutes "sincerity." I'll be holding my breath, in a patriotic fashion (turning red, white, and blue) while I await the golden apology.
I think there have always been 2 TWIs, the one giving out edicts from New Knoxville and the one operating out on the "field." Back when twigs were pretty autonomous, fellowships could be loving and nurturing without interference. In recent years, more has been done to close the control gap, resulting in the massive exodus out of TWI. Still, some home fellowships have been able to do their own thing somewhat.
I agree with you, people apologizing to people can have a huge healing effect on family and friends. I hope it results in "more harmony in the home." I just don't want it to result in the expansion of financial giving to a cult.
Regards,
Shaz
PS -- David, I understood what you meant, and thanks! Please tell my son, "Shaz is always right....Shaz is always right...." ;)
Having to deal with TWIts (or "disciples of The Way"), I certainly would welcome an apology and an improved attitude -- removing the condescension. To be treated as a person, not a cop-out.
I share the skepticism but faked sincerity is better than the status quo. But if it is sincere, all the better.
I agree the leaders should take the initiative and own up for what they have done first, not putting it on their followers. Lead by example. If it opens you up to lawsuits, so what? If it's the right thing to do, then pay for what you've done wrong.
One problem with this is that we haven't heard what was said. It's difficult to form an objective opinion without.
If TWI is reading this (as they will), how about making that teaching public? If it's truly about extending an olive branch, then there should be nothing to hide. If it's about trying to sucker people back in, well then you might want to keep it to yourselves. Otherwise, dump it to an mp3 file and put it on your web site so we can hear it. If you don't want to pay for bandwidth so ex-followers can download it, then ship it over to Paw and he'll host it.
I think we have to cut some slack here so you don't thwart possible reconnections by those that have shunned their families. At least if the believers that are still in do this, it will certainly solidify for them that TWI has made huge mistakes. That in itself is a big step in the right direction.
A lot of good things have been brought up on this thread, but I’m not sure about this one. If the only reason that a follower of twi stops shunning their family or friends and opens their arms towards them is because its the latest edict of the bod, then how can you trust it? I’m not insinuating that an apology from an inni to an ex would be insincere, but what I believe could happen is that the edict could be over turned at any point. And then what are people left with? It goes deeper there than a memo “to whom it may concern, apologize to the ex-wayfers you know”. The beliefs of shunning and superiority within twi would need to change first. And I also believe that wayfers would not only need to begin to think for themselves, but also to following what they believe is right. In other words, they would need to have their own walk and stand with God and JC. If not, as soon as a new directive came down the tube…
Another thought, Just because twi bod decides its ok to welcome your family into your home, even after all that was taught against it, does not mean that followers will think ill of the organization and the people running it. One of the main things that attracted me to twi was that they would (supposedly) change what they taught if they found new evidence to the fact. And, after everything that has happened thus far, people have stuck with them. I was raised in a religious organization (one in which I left once I hit teenage) that believed that the leader was speaking for God, and one leader would and could contradict another (once a leadership change took place) by changing the rules. It didn’t happen often and honestly I didn’t even know it did until I did some digging up on its history later in life. This organization is still very large, rich and powerful.
Just my 2 cents worth. This was a SNT. The teachings need to be approved. I wonder who approves these teachings? If it is a BOT member that approves teachings I would say that is as close to an apology as your gonna get.
Second cent. Same old same old. The BOT's do not have to live up to the standards that other believers have to live up to.
I can see what you're saying, but I know that a lot of TWIts are hurting and have broken hearts. A lot of them cut ties with family members because that's what they were told to do. IF they do indeed come back to these family members with apologies and open arms, THEN the family's response to the TWIt will show them a million times over how much they are loved by their family members and how they've always been there for them. It could be a "heaping coals" kind of revelation for those TWIts and, perhaps, start the scales falling from their eyes.
Also, there are those who are divorced and still have TWIt vs. Smart Non-TWIt fights over custody, visitation, child support, etc. This could be a great opportunity for the non-TWIt parent to have some pressure taken off and some of the difficulty of having to deal with a TWIt relieved somewhat.
I know my ex was welcomed back with open arms when he approached his family. That kind of response from a family can melt the coldest of hearts whether or not the apology was sincere.
I pray to God that more and more people will find healing, opening eyes and the map to the door if they decide to follow what seems to have been advised. I still pray for the total destruction of the TWIt organization, but if more and more folks can get out with lives and families as in tact as possible, I'm all for that, too. :)
What the heck is the little thing at the bottom of Safari-Vista's last post that keeps giving me smart remarks and my own address or something? It is very scary and I wish it would stop.
What the heck is the little thing at the bottom of Safari-Vista's last post that keeps giving me smart remarks and my own address or something? It is very scary and I wish it would stop.
:unsure:
That was my posts. It was just a goof. I could not tell what your address was or anything else about you. It was not spy ware or anything else. It was there for fun. It has been removed since it was spooking some people.
If TWI is reading this (as they will), how about making that teaching public? If it's truly about extending an olive branch, then there should be nothing to hide. If it's about trying to sucker people back in, well then you might want to keep it to yourselves. Otherwise, dump it to an mp3 file and put it on your web site so we can hear it. If you don't want to pay for bandwidth so ex-followers can download it, then ship it over to Paw and he'll host it.
I feal the same way GreasyTech. IF the leadership is offering an olive branch, it should be put into an mp3 file or an official document from the main leadership as an official "We're sorry." document. Otherwise they can recant and say it wasn't oficially "sanctioned" by any of the leadership.
If any apologies were extended from twi leadership (ie twi's bod) its.........SEVEN YEARS TOO LATE. Back in 1999, when martindale's sexcapades came front and center on Waydale and martindale made his "public confession of a one-time affair".......Craig, Howard, Don, Rosalie and Donna all walked in darkness and deception to keep the rank-and-file from a mass exodus.
[unless one wants to go back and consider "the fog years fiasco"........].........
Who could ever trust those folk with their spiritual lives????? Not me!
Seven years later, the bod and president's cabinet members STILL walk in darkness and do not the truth. Unwilling to accept responsibility for demented doctrines that bear putrid fruit, the manipulation from the podium lays this well-placed "forgiveness teaching" on the shoulders of their followers. If it weren't so pathetically sick........it would be laughable.
And, besides the obvious $$$$$$$$$ factor..............I would think that it is really embarrassing to see the dwindling numbers in the limbs, the same faces at sunday teachings, the skeleton corps program, and another foundational class to attempt to boost the paper totals.
Just one more strike against Rosalie's deceptive leadership. Imo, this new wrinkle is just one more way to divert attention FROM hq......and back onto the people.
[/i]I think it could be very easy for TWI to apologize to us.
Just come in here
Get a handle likeWE ARE BORG
Tell us who they are in a post and tell us they regret our experiences and wish they could assimilate us again because we were so good with our abundant sharing.
Give us a few email addresses of cabinet and above members
Allow us to email them and abuse them the way they abused us.
POOF! ! ! !
Sorry, I just woke up and found myself drueling on my keyboard. I dreamed TWI wanted to make ammends with us. What a weird thing. I think I need to "believe" for this dream to go away.
Glad I woke up.
Now I think I'll take a real sleeping pill and go to bed.
Friends always said I was in a perpectual state of dormant mental awareness
Sorry, I just woke up and found myself drueling on my keyboard. I dreamed TWI wanted to make ammends with us. What a weird thing. I think I need to "believe" for this dream to go away.
I would be happy to if I can find it. I have not as of yet heard anything to that effect. I'm a few tapes behind - I think that I might have to catch up now.
I can't go back to previous tapes because I throw them away after I listen. But if someone could give me a time frame from when this happened I could ask a friend to look through their tapes.
I need........
Teachers name
Date - if available
I'll type up the teaching - well most of it surrounding that particular area. We'll get the context of what was said.
Quote "And, besides the obvious $$$$$$$$$ factor..............I would think that it is really embarrassing to see the dwindling numbers in the limbs, the same faces at sunday teachings, the skeleton corps program, and another foundational class to attempt to boost the paper totals."
According to thier anual reports submitted to the Arizona Corporate Commission, TWI's balance sheet has not changed much in the last three years. It remains right around the 50 million mark. If there is a money crunch, is has been in the last 6 months or so. Too bad we can't see what TWI's actual ABS income is.
TWI generates revenue from 2 basic sources. Interest income on investments and donations (ABS).
ABS is undoubtedly the financial life-blood if TWI. 2000 people giving only $100 per month amounts to about $2.4 million in income per year. 2000 people giving $200 per month is twice that or about 5 million.
Interest income on $25 million ( asuming a nice 8 percent interest rate) amounts to about 2 million. Less than even the most conservative estimate of ABS
When and if ABS ever becomes less than interest income, TWI will really begin to feel the crunch. They will have to make some hard financial decisions. Reduce staff, sell property, etc. OR ....they could go all out and actually try to recruit some new mullets... er followers. (which is not likely to happen)
Maybe they are at that point now. Maybe they see it coming in the future ... we can only speculate.
Apologies? TWI as an organization will never apologize. The BOD, past and present will never apologize.
Even if they did, I doubt that it would make a difference as far as getting anyone to return, especially in the face of declining numbers and revenue.
As for me, I would buy an apology from TWI about like I would buy one from Robert Tilton or Jimmy Swaggert.
If the cost of living, wages and fuel (to a great degree) have risen each of the past few years, would those figures be significant if they remained static?
I wonder if, as cost of living and fuel prices continue to rise, we'll see more people sent packing, especially those with college tuition to pay and lots of kids. That's why the Brooks family will never be full time staff again. Too many kids for TWI to have to pay for.
They'll cut the seniors with health bills and the families first, keeping the single folk and middle-aged couples who don't have kids and are past child-bearing age.
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Posted this on the other thread, thought it would bear repeating:
And by the by....
If the person extending the so-called "apology" to me was PAID MINISTRY STAFF at the time of the offense, I would be asking specifically if they are specifically NOW acting in the capacity of an agent for The Way International in the act of the apology, or speaking solely for themselves.
If they are acting in the capacity of an agent for The Way International in extending their apology, then TWI might be seen to be admitting guilt. And if they do, there's a legal door that just opened. So perhaps they had better get all their ducks in a row before they let people loose to apologize...
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allan w.
I agree with the second part of Lornas' post about the blessings of abs, but disagree with her first part about the apologies.
IMO, what went on (and still is) is 'spiritual'. It is a 'spiritual problem' they had/have, so without any 'godly repentance' which I believe is much more than an " I'm sorry" statement , it is nothing less than another 'sham'.
You and I and they know when there is real 'godly sorrow unto repentance'. How about a bit of 'tears' and 'hand-wringing' and yeah..even a bit of sackcloth and ashes and I might begin to believe them.
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Patriot
Look, I am definitely a man who respects and almost always accepts a sincere apology. Heck, I've had to give my fair share over the years, and probably will.
Still, I believe that apologies should be given because it is the right thing to do, and not to win back others who left. That seems too much like the proverbial "Trojan Horse." And, if now the innies are apologizing to the outies, how sincere are they really? They had to come up in an official STS teaching, by an approved minister, before people had their marching orders to go apologize? Not to be insulting, but are the twi rank-and-file folks really that slow? Sheep to the extent of not doing it until led to by an official?
So yes - I would accept a sincere apology. Yet I will have doubts about what constitutes "sincerity." I'll be holding my breath, in a patriotic fashion (turning red, white, and blue) while I await the golden apology.
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dmiller
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shazdancer
Dear Lorna,
I think there have always been 2 TWIs, the one giving out edicts from New Knoxville and the one operating out on the "field." Back when twigs were pretty autonomous, fellowships could be loving and nurturing without interference. In recent years, more has been done to close the control gap, resulting in the massive exodus out of TWI. Still, some home fellowships have been able to do their own thing somewhat.
I agree with you, people apologizing to people can have a huge healing effect on family and friends. I hope it results in "more harmony in the home." I just don't want it to result in the expansion of financial giving to a cult.
Regards,
Shaz
PS -- David, I understood what you meant, and thanks! Please tell my son, "Shaz is always right....Shaz is always right...." ;)
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GT
Having to deal with TWIts (or "disciples of The Way"), I certainly would welcome an apology and an improved attitude -- removing the condescension. To be treated as a person, not a cop-out.
I share the skepticism but faked sincerity is better than the status quo. But if it is sincere, all the better.
I agree the leaders should take the initiative and own up for what they have done first, not putting it on their followers. Lead by example. If it opens you up to lawsuits, so what? If it's the right thing to do, then pay for what you've done wrong.
One problem with this is that we haven't heard what was said. It's difficult to form an objective opinion without.
If TWI is reading this (as they will), how about making that teaching public? If it's truly about extending an olive branch, then there should be nothing to hide. If it's about trying to sucker people back in, well then you might want to keep it to yourselves. Otherwise, dump it to an mp3 file and put it on your web site so we can hear it. If you don't want to pay for bandwidth so ex-followers can download it, then ship it over to Paw and he'll host it.
Edited by GreasyTechLink to comment
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gc
A lot of good things have been brought up on this thread, but I’m not sure about this one. If the only reason that a follower of twi stops shunning their family or friends and opens their arms towards them is because its the latest edict of the bod, then how can you trust it? I’m not insinuating that an apology from an inni to an ex would be insincere, but what I believe could happen is that the edict could be over turned at any point. And then what are people left with? It goes deeper there than a memo “to whom it may concern, apologize to the ex-wayfers you know”. The beliefs of shunning and superiority within twi would need to change first. And I also believe that wayfers would not only need to begin to think for themselves, but also to following what they believe is right. In other words, they would need to have their own walk and stand with God and JC. If not, as soon as a new directive came down the tube…
Another thought, Just because twi bod decides its ok to welcome your family into your home, even after all that was taught against it, does not mean that followers will think ill of the organization and the people running it. One of the main things that attracted me to twi was that they would (supposedly) change what they taught if they found new evidence to the fact. And, after everything that has happened thus far, people have stuck with them. I was raised in a religious organization (one in which I left once I hit teenage) that believed that the leader was speaking for God, and one leader would and could contradict another (once a leadership change took place) by changing the rules. It didn’t happen often and honestly I didn’t even know it did until I did some digging up on its history later in life. This organization is still very large, rich and powerful.
Just my opinion
gc
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justloafing
Just my 2 cents worth. This was a SNT. The teachings need to be approved. I wonder who approves these teachings? If it is a BOT member that approves teachings I would say that is as close to an apology as your gonna get.
Second cent. Same old same old. The BOT's do not have to live up to the standards that other believers have to live up to.
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Belle
I dunno, GC. :unsure:
I can see what you're saying, but I know that a lot of TWIts are hurting and have broken hearts. A lot of them cut ties with family members because that's what they were told to do. IF they do indeed come back to these family members with apologies and open arms, THEN the family's response to the TWIt will show them a million times over how much they are loved by their family members and how they've always been there for them. It could be a "heaping coals" kind of revelation for those TWIts and, perhaps, start the scales falling from their eyes.
Also, there are those who are divorced and still have TWIt vs. Smart Non-TWIt fights over custody, visitation, child support, etc. This could be a great opportunity for the non-TWIt parent to have some pressure taken off and some of the difficulty of having to deal with a TWIt relieved somewhat.
I know my ex was welcomed back with open arms when he approached his family. That kind of response from a family can melt the coldest of hearts whether or not the apology was sincere.
I pray to God that more and more people will find healing, opening eyes and the map to the door if they decide to follow what seems to have been advised. I still pray for the total destruction of the TWIt organization, but if more and more folks can get out with lives and families as in tact as possible, I'm all for that, too. :)
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Watered Garden
What the heck is the little thing at the bottom of Safari-Vista's last post that keeps giving me smart remarks and my own address or something? It is very scary and I wish it would stop.
:unsure:
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justloafing
That was my posts. It was just a goof. I could not tell what your address was or anything else about you. It was not spy ware or anything else. It was there for fun. It has been removed since it was spooking some people.
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nandon
Who gave the teaching?
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Jim
Catcup - your perception and wit is exquisite.
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Catcup
Why, thank you, Jim!
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danteh1
What GreasyTech said
I feal the same way GreasyTech. IF the leadership is offering an olive branch, it should be put into an mp3 file or an official document from the main leadership as an official "We're sorry." document. Otherwise they can recant and say it wasn't oficially "sanctioned" by any of the leadership.
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skyrider
Hmmmmm.
If any apologies were extended from twi leadership (ie twi's bod) its.........SEVEN YEARS TOO LATE. Back in 1999, when martindale's sexcapades came front and center on Waydale and martindale made his "public confession of a one-time affair".......Craig, Howard, Don, Rosalie and Donna all walked in darkness and deception to keep the rank-and-file from a mass exodus.
[unless one wants to go back and consider "the fog years fiasco"........].........
Who could ever trust those folk with their spiritual lives????? Not me!
Seven years later, the bod and president's cabinet members STILL walk in darkness and do not the truth. Unwilling to accept responsibility for demented doctrines that bear putrid fruit, the manipulation from the podium lays this well-placed "forgiveness teaching" on the shoulders of their followers. If it weren't so pathetically sick........it would be laughable.
And, besides the obvious $$$$$$$$$ factor..............I would think that it is really embarrassing to see the dwindling numbers in the limbs, the same faces at sunday teachings, the skeleton corps program, and another foundational class to attempt to boost the paper totals.
Just one more strike against Rosalie's deceptive leadership. Imo, this new wrinkle is just one more way to divert attention FROM hq......and back onto the people.
How connnnnnnvenient........................ <_<
Same trick, different day. :)
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YIdon'tgotochurch
[/i]I think it could be very easy for TWI to apologize to us.
Just come in here
Get a handle like WE ARE BORG
Tell us who they are in a post and tell us they regret our experiences and wish they could assimilate us again because we were so good with our abundant sharing.
Give us a few email addresses of cabinet and above members
Allow us to email them and abuse them the way they abused us.
POOF! ! ! !
Sorry, I just woke up and found myself drueling on my keyboard. I dreamed TWI wanted to make ammends with us. What a weird thing. I think I need to "believe" for this dream to go away.
Glad I woke up.
Now I think I'll take a real sleeping pill and go to bed.
Friends always said I was in a perpectual state of dormant mental awareness
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dmiller
Ha!
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Patriot
We really need to find out who was the teacher, what the date was of the STS, and the exact quote if possible.
Anyone with connections up for this challenge? Anyone? Buller?
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djs
I would be happy to if I can find it. I have not as of yet heard anything to that effect. I'm a few tapes behind - I think that I might have to catch up now.
I can't go back to previous tapes because I throw them away after I listen. But if someone could give me a time frame from when this happened I could ask a friend to look through their tapes.
I need........
Teachers name
Date - if available
I'll type up the teaching - well most of it surrounding that particular area. We'll get the context of what was said.
djs
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outofdafog
Quote "And, besides the obvious $$$$$$$$$ factor..............I would think that it is really embarrassing to see the dwindling numbers in the limbs, the same faces at sunday teachings, the skeleton corps program, and another foundational class to attempt to boost the paper totals."
Ah, dontcha know, these are the faithful remnant.
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Catcup
Wish I had the name and date, but I don't. Waiting for an innie to confirm this was a STS or Staff meeting?
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M. D. Vaden
If the cost of living, wages and fuel (to a great degree) have risen each of the past few years, would those figures be significant if they remained static?
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Belle
Good question. :)
I wonder if, as cost of living and fuel prices continue to rise, we'll see more people sent packing, especially those with college tuition to pay and lots of kids. That's why the Brooks family will never be full time staff again. Too many kids for TWI to have to pay for.
They'll cut the seniors with health bills and the families first, keeping the single folk and middle-aged couples who don't have kids and are past child-bearing age.
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