Wow, this subject hasn't come up here in a long time. I'm glad it has because I'm one of those family members that has a loved one buried on their sacred grounds, in the way woods, at the campfire area and it's been a rough road some days since my choice to wave buhbye to TWI, knowing full well that I was also leaving the cremated remains of my husband behind also.
I thank Doug, and have personally, for his tenacity and willingness to take the action he took as it afforded my eldest daughter a little more freedom to visit TWI grounds shortly after Doug's legal matters and she was able to, with TWI permission, get some of the dirt from where her dad is buried.
Some of the things that have changed, allegedly because of Doug's actions, however, hurt our heart too, but of TWI's decision, not Doug's.
They removed the names of the dead from the cabin in the woods wall. Remember those plaques on that west wall? They're gone, which is very sad to us.
If we want to travel and make a visit to TWI grounds and pay our respects like a family might at the cemetary, we do have to contact them and make arrangements and jump through some of their hoops, but we, as a family, have decided that it's better than the possibility that we'd flat be turned away.
My youngest daughter was only 23 months when her daddy died, so she has no memory of those woods, we were not there when his remains were interred into that ground and she's never visited; therefore it comforts this mama to know that she can visit now if she so chooses, even if it means she has to follow some protocol.
I accepted then as well as now that I was making a choice when the Board of Trustees invited me and my mother in law to have his remains buried there. I was not without understanding that, even while in TWI, the area would not be accessible to me and my girls, simply because of distance. I accepted the invitation because my husband loved those woods, period. Well, there was the ease of dealing with the gypsy life of a TWI person; it did give me security of location at the time.
When Doug invited me and my eldest to participate in the court proceedings, that put me in a place of decision making, as well and I chose not to ask my eldest to testify as to her father's death in terms of where he's buried and getting to the area, etc. Additionally, my husband's family was still involved at that time. However,the decision(s) weren't made without a LOT of consideration and I supported Doug 100% and was thankful for someone having the guts to try to facilitate change.
Yes, one might suggest that anyone proceeding with legal matters could be looking for publicity, but on the other hand, publicity pointed at this issue did some good.
I am not sure how I might have considered Doug's actions differently were I not a widow and mama involved.
I just don't understand why he went about it the way he did. He was looking for public sympathy. The legal system was waiting for him. Either he had other motives, or he was just sloppy.
I just don't understand why he went about it the way he did. He was looking for public sympathy. The legal system was waiting for him. Either he had other motives, or he was just sloppy.
I dunno about all of this.. while I tread lightly regarding individuals here who have loved ones interred on way grounds..
I really really think.. mac was an opportunist..
I think he wanted back in the organization, at whatever capacity possible. Including trespass "rights". Does this make sense? Or am I seeing something really off base here?
Maybe he was trying to stage a coup of sorts. Look at one of the other players involved, about the same time period.. jp. He brought accusations of neglect, indifference and harshness of the then way in regards to.. his ma. While I have compassion in regards to Mrs. Wierwille..
Would he possibly use the heart-tugging situation to his advantage?
Its just a thought.
Is there any coincidence here that these two players somehow seem to converge on a Mississippi farm? And the new tactic- from what I perceive.. if you can't join them, (try to) beat them. They have a new wierwille to develop, who has a strikingly familiar name (assigned to him by pa) for the twenty-first century.. they resurrect the old program, and merely copy the goals, the objectives, the methods..
Honestly, in my opinion, people have been "played" here..
The bad thing about all of this.. da way made both of them. They could have EASILY defused the situation. Just let mac wander in the woods once a year or something.. let him do whatever he wanted.. he wouldn't give them a REASON to run him off grounds.. and practically nobody would have known. He would come, do his thing.. quietly leave and that would be the end of it..
I really think.. of two individuals, to be on some kind of board, assigned arbitrary power over other people's lives.. in this situation, one could not name a worse choice.
I would go as far to say that it is frightening.
there are way too many unresolved issues.. unanswered questions.
I dunno about all of this.. while I tread lightly regarding individuals here who have loved ones interred on way grounds..
I really really think.. mac was an opportunist..
I think he wanted back in the organization, at whatever capacity possible. Including trespass "rights". Does this make sense? Or am I seeing something really off base here?
. . .
yeah, I think he wanted a foothold for something else. He may have not even known what he was up to.
Is anyone aware of a family requesting to move remains from TWI grounds? Not a simple matter but it might be less painful than facing TWI every time. Just curious.
Is there any laws about gravesites on private property? You'd think twi would give family members a "whenever" pass.
I would think you're right. This seems like an easy win in court. Unless the objective is to get publicity. I don't know Doug and have never met or seen him in my life so I can't comment on his motives.
I do not feel that publicity was the goal. He was, in part, attempting to help a young mother who's infant was interred on the grounds and she wanted to visit.
TWI property is private property, as much as if I were expected to allow someone to enter my property when ever they wished to do so.
Doesn't seem right to us, I know that, but it is. Would seem that our Abundant Sharing provided for years should give us freedom to do as we pleased, especially those of us that have a loved one interred there.
Seems like it, but it's not so.
TWI, to my understanding, entered into an agreement, court ordered or not, that states that we can visit when we wish so long as we call ahead and ask them to put on the coffee, we're staying awhile.
Just like I'd hope someone would do if they wished to enter my property for any reason.
Do I or my children like it? Certainly not, but it is where we agreed to have the man interred and I knew going into the agreement with them that it was not public. It's not like I can say now "hey!" Additionally, cremated remains are not as much my "property" as if there were a body buried.
There was no contract signed, there was no agreement discussed, as it were, like a cemetary would offer.
Do I or my children like it? Certainly not, but it is where we agreed to have the man interred and I knew going into the agreement with them that it was not public. It's not like I can say now "hey!" Additionally, cremated remains are not as much my "property" as if there were a body buried.
Shellon,
Either way, I'm sorry you have to even think about the whole thing.
Thank you JT, it's appreciated. In hindsight, might I have done differently, I can't really say. As I've said, he loved that place and it was some honor then.
Life is good, we've found our new normals for our family and each as individuals, we're happy.
I do not feel that publicity was the goal. He was, in part, attempting to help a young mother who's infant was interred on the grounds and she wanted to visit.
TWI property is private property, as much as if I were expected to allow someone to enter my property when ever they wished to do so.
Doesn't seem right to us, I know that, but it is. Would seem that our Abundant Sharing provided for years should give us freedom to do as we pleased, especially those of us that have a loved one interred there.
Seems like it, but it's not so.
TWI, to my understanding, entered into an agreement, court ordered or not, that states that we can visit when we wish so long as we call ahead and ask them to put on the coffee, we're staying awhile.
Just like I'd hope someone would do if they wished to enter my property for any reason.
Do I or my children like it? Certainly not, but it is where we agreed to have the man interred and I knew going into the agreement with them that it was not public. It's not like I can say now "hey!" Additionally, cremated remains are not as much my "property" as if there were a body buried.
There was no contract signed, there was no agreement discussed, as it were, like a cemetary would offer.
McMullan called the News cameras out of Lima. They did interviews with twi before the incident happened I believe. Everyone new he was coming. There Sheriff's deputies were waiting.
Everyone knew that you could call HQ to visit. There are a lot of dangerous yahoos who would also like to get on grounds freely. There are children who live there.
On the news I don't remember McMullan talking about a mom's baby. He talked about his relationship with vpw I thought. He looked like a looney. (Not that Lima News made twi look any good either.)
If there was a large enough demand I would think twi would set aside even a parking spot for visitors of the sites. They still spend time caring for the Way Woods and fountain because they are grave sites.
Hi Bolshevik, I understand your comments and concerns, truly. I am aware of another parent and her own desires regarding wanting to see the burial spot of her dead child because I, too, was invited to be part of the court proceedings and before I made my decision, I researched as completely as I found possible, needed to understand motives, other involved, why, etc.
I'm afraid it would be imprudent, impolite and simply rude of me to share her name here without her permission. It was given in the newspaper articles which I do not have at my disposal at the moment; perhaps I can find that for you at another time.
Yes, Mr. McMullan did mention his relationship with Mr. Wierwille, as they had what was purported to be a close, kind and good relationship back in the day and Mr. McMullan was, as are so many others, appalled at the treatment he, the mother he was assisting and others like myself were handed.
Since I've told Mr. McMullan straight up I can, then tell you the same here. I opted out of acting in a court of law as a witness because I would have had to involve my children in a mess that they had no more to do with than where their daddy was buried. Additionally, my inlaws were, at that time, still very involved.
So my personal agenda, if there was one, was one of concern and thought, but certainly NOT without concern and thought for the reality that those same children might not be able to visit daddy's grave if they so chose.
I can not, shall not, speak for Mr. McMullan but I do understand the original idea and supported it, however he got there. If he wanted publicity, I agreed to that too, to bring it to media's light, drawing attention to those that had dead buried there and no access, perhaps.
Why not? Any PR is still PR and it did do some good; TWI had some questions to answer regarding such a delicate issue as grieving family members.
If I were to attempt to visit a place I believed I had proper right to visit and was denied, I'm sure media would be a high enough consideration for me as well, if for no other reason than to draw attention.
Heck, I'm asking media to come to a school board meeting in three weeks as I anticipate some uncomfortable Board Members that we want answers from and we believe they'll feel more required to if a camera is pointed in their direction and we're not getting anything on our own.
Mr. McMullan took a shot and it didn't go exactly as planned, but he did take a shot and for that I'm grateful, as are my children.
I'll assume that you do not have a loved one buried there and count you as fortunate in that regard; truly, blessed to not have to say to your children, for instance, that they can not visit a parents grave because of sheer mean-ness on the part of religious leaders. If you were to be in that place, as I am, you and I both could now answer them with something to the effect of "yes you can visit, but there is a policy in place for that particular property because it's private". (say that three times fast :) )
Best case scenerio it is not, but it's what we have and it's better than nothing. As for me and my children, we'll take it and say thank you.
I do not feel that publicity was the goal. He was, in part, attempting to help a young mother who's infant was interred on the grounds and she wanted to visit.
TWI property is private property, as much as if I were expected to allow someone to enter my property when ever they wished to do so.
Doesn't seem right to us, I know that, but it is. Would seem that our Abundant Sharing provided for years should give us freedom to do as we pleased, especially those of us that have a loved one interred there.
Seems like it, but it's not so.
TWI, to my understanding, entered into an agreement, court ordered or not, that states that we can visit when we wish so long as we call ahead and ask them to put on the coffee, we're staying awhile.
Just like I'd hope someone would do if they wished to enter my property for any reason.
Do I or my children like it? Certainly not, but it is where we agreed to have the man interred and I knew going into the agreement with them that it was not public. It's not like I can say now "hey!" Additionally, cremated remains are not as much my "property" as if there were a body buried.
There was no contract signed, there was no agreement discussed, as it were, like a cemetary would offer.
And, back when we were involved with the cult, we believed it when the trustees said that we were always welcome at the way, that there were no strangers there, that the way was OURS, the grounds were OUR HOME, and that we could take the PFAL classes for free once we were grads...
I know I couldn't have imagined a time when I'd not only not be welcome at the way, but would have no desire to go there 5 or 6 times every year!
I was floored to hear people couldn't just go visit their loved ones buried in the woods - seems that was the last nail on the twi coffin for me. I don't even have anyone buried there - it just rattled my cage so terribly to hear that. Even for twi, that was low.
Hi Box, me too, what a shame eh? And then let us consider how they treated Don's family (siblings) when he died. They originaly gave them one hour to visit and say goodbye to their brother, then under public scrutiny and media spotlight, added 30 more minutes.
It was then, for me, I wasn't shocked at anything done, said or directed at us regarding our loved ones buried there.
Sad, hurt, angry, ashamed of some of my decisions, yes.
Not allowing people to visit graves...good grief! Why should this be a threat to them?...or is it out of pure mean-ness? How do they reconcile this policy with their purported Christian faith? The truth be told...Wierwille's "kids" have turned into vipers who devour each other. Mean spiritedness is the order of the day, I wonder if these people even pray anymore...
Groucho, my thoughts exactly. I read the posts and thought what do they have to hide? Who are these people? Then I realized it is all about the same ole control thing.
Shellon, honey, my heart was torn reading your posts.
Thank you, Kimberly, it's just our lives and our new normal and like so many things we adapt to it, but your thoughtfulness is appreciated.
For me, I struggle with my choices and re-think things that can't be changed no matter how much I re-think; it's futile mostly. I find myself most thankful for amazing children who don't also grieve the loss of a proper place where daddy is buried, who don't lament about 'why can't we move to Ohio to be closer to daddy' or any of that. They are women of strength and understanding and good, for which I'm thankful.
I'm ok with having to contact someone in a TWI office if we did choose to return, simply because I do understand it is a business, a property not my own and therefore I have to extend them the courtesy. It's a part of my choice to have his remains buried there. For now, it's what we've got but we've also got a "daddy tree", a little blue spruce planted and happily growing in memory of a good husband and father. :)
Not allowing people to visit graves...good grief! Why should this be a threat to them?...or is it out of pure mean-ness? How do they reconcile this policy with their purported Christian faith? The truth be told...Wierwille's "kids" have turned into vipers who devour each other. Mean spiritedness is the order of the day, I wonder if these people even pray anymore...
Wouldn't they view visiting grave sites as a form of worshiping the dead? The dead are dead, wash your face and move on?
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Shellon
Thank you, Twinky and Waterbuffalo (nice to see you ~!) it has been a beautiful thing for my girls. Samantha was 15 and Kelly 23 months when their father died and so having a memorial tree is importa
Bolshevik
McMullan called the News cameras out of Lima. They did interviews with twi before the incident happened I believe. Everyone new he was coming. There Sheriff's deputies were waiting. Everyone kne
Shellon
Thank you, Kimberly, it's just our lives and our new normal and like so many things we adapt to it, but your thoughtfulness is appreciated. For me, I struggle with my choices and re-think things that
Shellon
Wow, this subject hasn't come up here in a long time. I'm glad it has because I'm one of those family members that has a loved one buried on their sacred grounds, in the way woods, at the campfire area and it's been a rough road some days since my choice to wave buhbye to TWI, knowing full well that I was also leaving the cremated remains of my husband behind also.
I thank Doug, and have personally, for his tenacity and willingness to take the action he took as it afforded my eldest daughter a little more freedom to visit TWI grounds shortly after Doug's legal matters and she was able to, with TWI permission, get some of the dirt from where her dad is buried.
Some of the things that have changed, allegedly because of Doug's actions, however, hurt our heart too, but of TWI's decision, not Doug's.
They removed the names of the dead from the cabin in the woods wall. Remember those plaques on that west wall? They're gone, which is very sad to us.
If we want to travel and make a visit to TWI grounds and pay our respects like a family might at the cemetary, we do have to contact them and make arrangements and jump through some of their hoops, but we, as a family, have decided that it's better than the possibility that we'd flat be turned away.
My youngest daughter was only 23 months when her daddy died, so she has no memory of those woods, we were not there when his remains were interred into that ground and she's never visited; therefore it comforts this mama to know that she can visit now if she so chooses, even if it means she has to follow some protocol.
I accepted then as well as now that I was making a choice when the Board of Trustees invited me and my mother in law to have his remains buried there. I was not without understanding that, even while in TWI, the area would not be accessible to me and my girls, simply because of distance. I accepted the invitation because my husband loved those woods, period. Well, there was the ease of dealing with the gypsy life of a TWI person; it did give me security of location at the time.
When Doug invited me and my eldest to participate in the court proceedings, that put me in a place of decision making, as well and I chose not to ask my eldest to testify as to her father's death in terms of where he's buried and getting to the area, etc. Additionally, my husband's family was still involved at that time. However,the decision(s) weren't made without a LOT of consideration and I supported Doug 100% and was thankful for someone having the guts to try to facilitate change.
Yes, one might suggest that anyone proceeding with legal matters could be looking for publicity, but on the other hand, publicity pointed at this issue did some good.
I am not sure how I might have considered Doug's actions differently were I not a widow and mama involved.
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Bolshevik
I just don't understand why he went about it the way he did. He was looking for public sympathy. The legal system was waiting for him. Either he had other motives, or he was just sloppy.
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Tzaia
Some people just like raising a stink.
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Ham
I dunno about all of this.. while I tread lightly regarding individuals here who have loved ones interred on way grounds..
I really really think.. mac was an opportunist..
I think he wanted back in the organization, at whatever capacity possible. Including trespass "rights". Does this make sense? Or am I seeing something really off base here?
Maybe he was trying to stage a coup of sorts. Look at one of the other players involved, about the same time period.. jp. He brought accusations of neglect, indifference and harshness of the then way in regards to.. his ma. While I have compassion in regards to Mrs. Wierwille..
Would he possibly use the heart-tugging situation to his advantage?
Its just a thought.
Is there any coincidence here that these two players somehow seem to converge on a Mississippi farm? And the new tactic- from what I perceive.. if you can't join them, (try to) beat them. They have a new wierwille to develop, who has a strikingly familiar name (assigned to him by pa) for the twenty-first century.. they resurrect the old program, and merely copy the goals, the objectives, the methods..
Honestly, in my opinion, people have been "played" here..
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Ham
The bad thing about all of this.. da way made both of them. They could have EASILY defused the situation. Just let mac wander in the woods once a year or something.. let him do whatever he wanted.. he wouldn't give them a REASON to run him off grounds.. and practically nobody would have known. He would come, do his thing.. quietly leave and that would be the end of it..
no "compromise" with da "adversary" I guess..
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Ham
I really think.. of two individuals, to be on some kind of board, assigned arbitrary power over other people's lives.. in this situation, one could not name a worse choice.
I would go as far to say that it is frightening.
there are way too many unresolved issues.. unanswered questions.
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Bolshevik
yeah, I think he wanted a foothold for something else. He may have not even known what he was up to.
Give a mouse a cookie . . .
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JustThinking
Is anyone aware of a family requesting to move remains from TWI grounds? Not a simple matter but it might be less painful than facing TWI every time. Just curious.
JT
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Shellon
We moved some of the site dirt, yes. Five years after the burial, but at least the dirt, with their permission.
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Bolshevik
Is there any laws about gravesites on private property? You'd think twi would give family members a "whenever" pass.
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JustThinking
I would think you're right. This seems like an easy win in court. Unless the objective is to get publicity. I don't know Doug and have never met or seen him in my life so I can't comment on his motives.
JT
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Shellon
I do not feel that publicity was the goal. He was, in part, attempting to help a young mother who's infant was interred on the grounds and she wanted to visit.
TWI property is private property, as much as if I were expected to allow someone to enter my property when ever they wished to do so.
Doesn't seem right to us, I know that, but it is. Would seem that our Abundant Sharing provided for years should give us freedom to do as we pleased, especially those of us that have a loved one interred there.
Seems like it, but it's not so.
TWI, to my understanding, entered into an agreement, court ordered or not, that states that we can visit when we wish so long as we call ahead and ask them to put on the coffee, we're staying awhile.
Just like I'd hope someone would do if they wished to enter my property for any reason.
Do I or my children like it? Certainly not, but it is where we agreed to have the man interred and I knew going into the agreement with them that it was not public. It's not like I can say now "hey!" Additionally, cremated remains are not as much my "property" as if there were a body buried.
There was no contract signed, there was no agreement discussed, as it were, like a cemetary would offer.
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JustThinking
Shellon,
Either way, I'm sorry you have to even think about the whole thing.
JT
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Shellon
Thank you JT, it's appreciated. In hindsight, might I have done differently, I can't really say. As I've said, he loved that place and it was some honor then.
Life is good, we've found our new normals for our family and each as individuals, we're happy.
:)
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Bolshevik
McMullan called the News cameras out of Lima. They did interviews with twi before the incident happened I believe. Everyone new he was coming. There Sheriff's deputies were waiting.
Everyone knew that you could call HQ to visit. There are a lot of dangerous yahoos who would also like to get on grounds freely. There are children who live there.
On the news I don't remember McMullan talking about a mom's baby. He talked about his relationship with vpw I thought. He looked like a looney. (Not that Lima News made twi look any good either.)
If there was a large enough demand I would think twi would set aside even a parking spot for visitors of the sites. They still spend time caring for the Way Woods and fountain because they are grave sites.
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Shellon
Hi Bolshevik, I understand your comments and concerns, truly. I am aware of another parent and her own desires regarding wanting to see the burial spot of her dead child because I, too, was invited to be part of the court proceedings and before I made my decision, I researched as completely as I found possible, needed to understand motives, other involved, why, etc.
I'm afraid it would be imprudent, impolite and simply rude of me to share her name here without her permission. It was given in the newspaper articles which I do not have at my disposal at the moment; perhaps I can find that for you at another time.
Yes, Mr. McMullan did mention his relationship with Mr. Wierwille, as they had what was purported to be a close, kind and good relationship back in the day and Mr. McMullan was, as are so many others, appalled at the treatment he, the mother he was assisting and others like myself were handed.
Since I've told Mr. McMullan straight up I can, then tell you the same here. I opted out of acting in a court of law as a witness because I would have had to involve my children in a mess that they had no more to do with than where their daddy was buried. Additionally, my inlaws were, at that time, still very involved.
So my personal agenda, if there was one, was one of concern and thought, but certainly NOT without concern and thought for the reality that those same children might not be able to visit daddy's grave if they so chose.
I can not, shall not, speak for Mr. McMullan but I do understand the original idea and supported it, however he got there. If he wanted publicity, I agreed to that too, to bring it to media's light, drawing attention to those that had dead buried there and no access, perhaps.
Why not? Any PR is still PR and it did do some good; TWI had some questions to answer regarding such a delicate issue as grieving family members.
If I were to attempt to visit a place I believed I had proper right to visit and was denied, I'm sure media would be a high enough consideration for me as well, if for no other reason than to draw attention.
Heck, I'm asking media to come to a school board meeting in three weeks as I anticipate some uncomfortable Board Members that we want answers from and we believe they'll feel more required to if a camera is pointed in their direction and we're not getting anything on our own.
Mr. McMullan took a shot and it didn't go exactly as planned, but he did take a shot and for that I'm grateful, as are my children.
I'll assume that you do not have a loved one buried there and count you as fortunate in that regard; truly, blessed to not have to say to your children, for instance, that they can not visit a parents grave because of sheer mean-ness on the part of religious leaders. If you were to be in that place, as I am, you and I both could now answer them with something to the effect of "yes you can visit, but there is a policy in place for that particular property because it's private". (say that three times fast :) )
Best case scenerio it is not, but it's what we have and it's better than nothing. As for me and my children, we'll take it and say thank you.
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Bolshevik
ah, it was a strange event.
. . . .
wasn't McMullen vpw's bodyguard? I believe we were told to stay away from him cause he knew karate and would break us in half or something.
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Shellon
I believe he was something like that, yeah. :)
(edited cuz I suck at quoting)
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bowtwi
And, back when we were involved with the cult, we believed it when the trustees said that we were always welcome at the way, that there were no strangers there, that the way was OURS, the grounds were OUR HOME, and that we could take the PFAL classes for free once we were grads...
I know I couldn't have imagined a time when I'd not only not be welcome at the way, but would have no desire to go there 5 or 6 times every year!
I was floored to hear people couldn't just go visit their loved ones buried in the woods - seems that was the last nail on the twi coffin for me. I don't even have anyone buried there - it just rattled my cage so terribly to hear that. Even for twi, that was low.
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Shellon
Hi Box, me too, what a shame eh? And then let us consider how they treated Don's family (siblings) when he died. They originaly gave them one hour to visit and say goodbye to their brother, then under public scrutiny and media spotlight, added 30 more minutes.
It was then, for me, I wasn't shocked at anything done, said or directed at us regarding our loved ones buried there.
Sad, hurt, angry, ashamed of some of my decisions, yes.
edited to cite my source
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/waydale/waydale-miscellaneous/dr.-donald-e.-wierwille-burial-arrangements.html
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GrouchoMarxJr
Not allowing people to visit graves...good grief! Why should this be a threat to them?...or is it out of pure mean-ness? How do they reconcile this policy with their purported Christian faith? The truth be told...Wierwille's "kids" have turned into vipers who devour each other. Mean spiritedness is the order of the day, I wonder if these people even pray anymore...
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kimberly
Groucho, my thoughts exactly. I read the posts and thought what do they have to hide? Who are these people? Then I realized it is all about the same ole control thing.
Shellon, honey, my heart was torn reading your posts.
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Shellon
Thank you, Kimberly, it's just our lives and our new normal and like so many things we adapt to it, but your thoughtfulness is appreciated.
For me, I struggle with my choices and re-think things that can't be changed no matter how much I re-think; it's futile mostly. I find myself most thankful for amazing children who don't also grieve the loss of a proper place where daddy is buried, who don't lament about 'why can't we move to Ohio to be closer to daddy' or any of that. They are women of strength and understanding and good, for which I'm thankful.
I'm ok with having to contact someone in a TWI office if we did choose to return, simply because I do understand it is a business, a property not my own and therefore I have to extend them the courtesy. It's a part of my choice to have his remains buried there. For now, it's what we've got but we've also got a "daddy tree", a little blue spruce planted and happily growing in memory of a good husband and father. :)
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Bolshevik
Wouldn't they view visiting grave sites as a form of worshiping the dead? The dead are dead, wash your face and move on?
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