I'm pretty sure there hasn't been a generation in existence - EVER - that didn't believe they were in the "end times". Even in the Bible there's ample evidence that they believed they would see the "end" soon.
Another noteworthy example of the endtimes thinking was the Reverend Miller in upstate New York in the 1830's and 40's. He had worked out the timetable and concluded that 1843 would be the earth's last year. All the congregation got together on a specific day to meet the Lord and be taken away to Neverland. Musta got a tad awkward after a few too many hours of waiting. Anyway, the Reverend - still unabashed in his prophetic beliefs gathered his followers again a few months later, as he had revised his calculations and was sure this time. Alas, the results were about the same as before, save having surely alienated a few more parishoners by then.
Eventually the whole "ministry" broke up over the failed predictions and formed up into "splinter" groups, the most noteable being The Seventh-Day Adventist Church and the Jehovah's Witnesses...
Very good Kit ! With all the guesses/guessers someones bound to get it right eventually. I like Revvels synopsis about end times; I think how could anyone really be prepared for the second advent ?
As Revvel says " what if you woke up one morning and the world as you knew it had changed forever ? "
In America, USA, where I live, there has been very little cruel bodily torture, which is the routine for such places as Iran, China, and India (Persecution.com or Open Doors for example).
I have long thought that people who were being tortured, burned at the stake, and otherwise killed because they loved the Lord Jesus Christ, would not be wont to engage in an "is this an end times" discussion. And that maybe this is what believing it's the end times is all about: Coming to the place where the importance of everything except Christ is ended.
The little Amish girl who said, "shoot me first" to buy time for the others, the little girl at Columbine who did not deny the Lord Jesus as well as the Christian whose "distinctive barritone" voice could be heard singing hymns from outside the prison where he was incarcerated -- these all had reached that place where they lived only for Christ other things were ended in their lives.
I think that's how we need to be ready for "the end times."
A lot of people spend a lot of energy and time calculating when the end will come. As vague as the bible is on the subject, to me it doesn't make sense to try and figure it out. If the world is going to end it will end whether anyone has figured the date out or not. I would much rather spend my time enjoying the day rather than worrying if it is going to end.
With so many countries enamoured with nukes and other deadly weapons that poison soils and atmosphere, I suspect that we could all go at any time. Or maybe it'll take a couple generations, with families dying off from radiation caused cancers etc. Not the Biblical end, and maybe not really the end of the human race, but end of life as we know it. The God of the Bible doesn't stop man from cruel and evil decisions, after all.
always only moves and flows in cycles within cycles of birth and death
which are always also eventually followed by rebirth into some higher order of birthing and rebirthing
a galaxy
a moon
a leaf
a forest
a life
a faith
a perspective
and this is so stubbornly
faithfully
ignorantly
purely
truly
stupidly
tenaciously so...
that one could even call it something like divine
and it seems that as we find all the ways there are to basically stop flinching at all the gazillion aspects of this most awesome and violent kind of truth, we can come to rely upon the endless waves of transformation that are always already upon us and will never stop coming.
never
ever
ever
sigh
:blink:
as for the sign of the times o changing
there is no need to look reall hard for mysterious hidden signs
cuz signs of any eternal and radical passing are everywhere
always
flash
flash
flash
flash
and in one sense
in the blink of an eye
the big bang happens again
genesis happens again
and not because the world finally changed
but because we finally opened the eye to see such a thing
and like a newborn babe's....it was an eye that was already always only here
the we see that the end of time is always now
and the moment you realize that
the very awareness of Christ is here
and you are here
and we are here
and so is God
and everything that is
is simply here
as it always is
time itself vanishes
but remains as the usefull illusion it always was and will ever be
as it always has been
prior to our forgetting
the names and words we use to remember
and to tell the story of our remembering
simply always only ever changes
...
and so sure enough
as it is for every single person
and as it is for every single nation, tribe, or CULTure
the earth itself has its many many cycles of death and rebirth
many ages and times and come and gone
violently
brilliantly
horrifically
wonderfully
as always
yada yada yada...til the end of time
i think most anyone could agree
that some part of most everyone started to die on the year 2000
or on 9-11
or when the internet came together
or when we dropped the bomb
or invented the stirrup
just as they did in 1492
just as they did in the first century
just as they did at the dawn of humanity
in the twinkle of an eye
worlds are born
and worlds die
...
and so these days are different
no one can deny
many things are new
obviously
no, we dont fight and kill each other the same ways in which we used to
but we have surely gotten better at finding ways to kill each other more slowly
overpopulation of addictions, delusions, news ways to be crazy
and new things to be crazy about
widespread societal loss of adequate meaning and hope
and in mechanical, uncreative, unimaginative ways
is a kind of programmable poisonous hell on earth
that far outweighs any pagan experience of slavery and genocide
...
so yeah, it seems to me that are obviously in the end of many big somethings all at once
as always, but bigger then before, as always
and never what we thought it would be
and never when we thought is should be
but always now
and always coming
and alway passing
...
my advice...we need to find better ways to stop flinching so much
as the world dies again again again in so many infinite pieces and ways
some how
some way
cuz regardless of anything else we learn
if we learn at least this little kind of thing
we wont be such jerks to our neighbors
which is helpful if the world is falling apart around us again
If I am going to live until the age of 70 and I am now 46 it not the end of times for me but if I am going to live until age of 46 and I am now age 46 it is the end of times for me
When it is close to the time I will take my last breath then to me it will be the end of times to me
What if there are many returns of Christ and many first comings of Christ?
one first coming of Christ into your life and one return to lead you into changed -- the new body
While it seems by numbers time will run out before we enter the seven 1,000 year as we are now in the 6th 1000 year of hisory or the 6th day of God
For God's 7th day will be a day of rest
but there do we begin to count
at creation, or the day sin came
from Adam creation day in God's measurement day 1 to the 1st 1,000 years for one day or from Adam sin day in God's measurement day 1 to the 1st 1,000 years ?
The year 1997 was the 6th day to God by God's measurement from the creation begining
But 2027 will be the the 6th day to God by God's measurement from the ministry of sin
While I personally believe we are in the last days for me there are too many questions to answer
so what I say watch and be ready as if you might die the next 1,000,0000 of a second -- as a figure of speech
Yes I think we're getting closer to the end times. I remember the day of 9/11 – I actually thought it was happening! It's scary how quickly reason can go out the window in a major catastrophic event!
When it comes to the topic of the Rapture, the Return of Christ, end times, etc. I often recall the irresponsible attitudes TWI's teachings fostered. I remembered traveling to a big area meeting with our branch coordinator – the whole trip he kept encouraging me to loosen up on my purse strings at restaurants [what little money my wife and I had living the "more than abundant TWI lifestyle" ] – and it was usually chipping in more than our share towards the check. As always he'd launch into one of his polished, slick salesman mode of monologues referring to the imminent return of Christ justifying such a cavalier attitude towards finances. Sorry to bring this up in doctrinal but I thought it's an important aspect – how doctrine affects practice.
Since I left TWI I try to focus more on the here and now – and what my Lord wants me to do – and the short answer is ---- live responsibly! That is His point in Matthew 25:1-13 about the 10 bridesmaids – 5 wise bridesmaids brought extra oil since they didn't know when the bridegroom was returning. And I also think about Paul's words in II Thessalonians 3:7-13. After talking about the Rapture and the Return of Christ [in both I and II Thessalonians] Paul in this passage mentions how he and the others with him did not live an undisciplined life – but they actually worked for a living! Not like the busybodies in verse 11 that didn't work.
I think sometimes when we focus on end times stuff – we forget about our own "end time" – what time we each have left to live. I think of Jesus' parable in Luke 12:16-21 of the rich man planning to build more storage barns – not knowing he will die that night. Jesus' comment was that the man didn't plan on storing any riches with God. This passage makes me add some forward thinking to the idea of living responsibly here and now from Matthew 25 and II Thessalonians 3. I'm to gear up for whatever is next on God's timetable – by living responsibly for God right now!
Even if you believed in a literal second coming , Im hard pressed to think Bush has all that much power to stop JC from doing his thing, but then again he is the devil isnt he?
Strange
This guy is taking donations and flying around in his own 747 to preach this.
Voters should oust congressional Republican leaders because U.S. foreign policy is delaying the second coming of Jesus Christ, according to a evangelical preacher trying to influence closely contested political races.
He is probably making the IRS sit up and take notice since he's directly calling for the voting out of specific politicians, and the IRS don't like that coming from groups who are exempt from paying taxes.
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dancing
the end is experienced by the individual
and it's another beginning
world events have little to do with it
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George Aar
I'm pretty sure there hasn't been a generation in existence - EVER - that didn't believe they were in the "end times". Even in the Bible there's ample evidence that they believed they would see the "end" soon.
Another noteworthy example of the endtimes thinking was the Reverend Miller in upstate New York in the 1830's and 40's. He had worked out the timetable and concluded that 1843 would be the earth's last year. All the congregation got together on a specific day to meet the Lord and be taken away to Neverland. Musta got a tad awkward after a few too many hours of waiting. Anyway, the Reverend - still unabashed in his prophetic beliefs gathered his followers again a few months later, as he had revised his calculations and was sure this time. Alas, the results were about the same as before, save having surely alienated a few more parishoners by then.
Eventually the whole "ministry" broke up over the failed predictions and formed up into "splinter" groups, the most noteable being The Seventh-Day Adventist Church and the Jehovah's Witnesses...
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Kit Sober
I was looking at a diet book, and the author had another one she'd written, "How to have a great bottom."
I think it's important, not when the Lord returns, but that we have our bottom covered -- we are good to go from the bottom to the top of us.
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allan w.
Very good Kit ! With all the guesses/guessers someones bound to get it right eventually. I like Revvels synopsis about end times; I think how could anyone really be prepared for the second advent ?
As Revvel says " what if you woke up one morning and the world as you knew it had changed forever ? "
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TheInvisibleDan
It is certainly by the grace of God
that "the end" of the world
has not occurred by now.
With all the nuclear arms in existence,
we have the capacity to still
wipe each other out and effectively
end the world as we know it.
I'm truly amazed it hasn't happened by now.
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allan w.
Well that's true too...the fulness of the Gentiles not yet 'fully in' ??
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Kit Sober
In America, USA, where I live, there has been very little cruel bodily torture, which is the routine for such places as Iran, China, and India (Persecution.com or Open Doors for example).
I have long thought that people who were being tortured, burned at the stake, and otherwise killed because they loved the Lord Jesus Christ, would not be wont to engage in an "is this an end times" discussion. And that maybe this is what believing it's the end times is all about: Coming to the place where the importance of everything except Christ is ended.
The little Amish girl who said, "shoot me first" to buy time for the others, the little girl at Columbine who did not deny the Lord Jesus as well as the Christian whose "distinctive barritone" voice could be heard singing hymns from outside the prison where he was incarcerated -- these all had reached that place where they lived only for Christ other things were ended in their lives.
I think that's how we need to be ready for "the end times."
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Stayed Too Long
A lot of people spend a lot of energy and time calculating when the end will come. As vague as the bible is on the subject, to me it doesn't make sense to try and figure it out. If the world is going to end it will end whether anyone has figured the date out or not. I would much rather spend my time enjoying the day rather than worrying if it is going to end.
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Bramble
With so many countries enamoured with nukes and other deadly weapons that poison soils and atmosphere, I suspect that we could all go at any time. Or maybe it'll take a couple generations, with families dying off from radiation caused cancers etc. Not the Biblical end, and maybe not really the end of the human race, but end of life as we know it. The God of the Bible doesn't stop man from cruel and evil decisions, after all.
Where's that hundredth monkey!
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sirguessalot
hi all
plz pardon the thickness of this simple rant
but it seems to me
that any such divine or ultimate reality
always only moves and flows in cycles within cycles of birth and death
which are always also eventually followed by rebirth into some higher order of birthing and rebirthing
a galaxy
a moon
a leaf
a forest
a life
a faith
a perspective
and this is so stubbornly
faithfully
ignorantly
purely
truly
stupidly
tenaciously so...
that one could even call it something like divine
and it seems that as we find all the ways there are to basically stop flinching at all the gazillion aspects of this most awesome and violent kind of truth, we can come to rely upon the endless waves of transformation that are always already upon us and will never stop coming.
never
ever
ever
sigh
:blink:
as for the sign of the times o changing
there is no need to look reall hard for mysterious hidden signs
cuz signs of any eternal and radical passing are everywhere
always
flash
flash
flash
flash
and in one sense
in the blink of an eye
the big bang happens again
genesis happens again
and not because the world finally changed
but because we finally opened the eye to see such a thing
and like a newborn babe's....it was an eye that was already always only here
the we see that the end of time is always now
and the moment you realize that
the very awareness of Christ is here
and you are here
and we are here
and so is God
and everything that is
is simply here
as it always is
time itself vanishes
but remains as the usefull illusion it always was and will ever be
as it always has been
prior to our forgetting
the names and words we use to remember
and to tell the story of our remembering
simply always only ever changes
...
and so sure enough
as it is for every single person
and as it is for every single nation, tribe, or CULTure
the earth itself has its many many cycles of death and rebirth
many ages and times and come and gone
violently
brilliantly
horrifically
wonderfully
as always
yada yada yada...til the end of time
i think most anyone could agree
that some part of most everyone started to die on the year 2000
or on 9-11
or when the internet came together
or when we dropped the bomb
or invented the stirrup
just as they did in 1492
just as they did in the first century
just as they did at the dawn of humanity
in the twinkle of an eye
worlds are born
and worlds die
...
and so these days are different
no one can deny
many things are new
obviously
no, we dont fight and kill each other the same ways in which we used to
but we have surely gotten better at finding ways to kill each other more slowly
overpopulation of addictions, delusions, news ways to be crazy
and new things to be crazy about
widespread societal loss of adequate meaning and hope
and in mechanical, uncreative, unimaginative ways
is a kind of programmable poisonous hell on earth
that far outweighs any pagan experience of slavery and genocide
...
so yeah, it seems to me that are obviously in the end of many big somethings all at once
as always, but bigger then before, as always
and never what we thought it would be
and never when we thought is should be
but always now
and always coming
and alway passing
...
my advice...we need to find better ways to stop flinching so much
as the world dies again again again in so many infinite pieces and ways
some how
some way
cuz regardless of anything else we learn
if we learn at least this little kind of thing
we wont be such jerks to our neighbors
which is helpful if the world is falling apart around us again
as usual
happy Sunday
yawn
Edited by sirguessalotLink to comment
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sirguessalot
and to add
i think that for some
newness = the devil
which is sad
and somewhat troubling
i think that just as predictors throughout the millenia seemed to be saying
is how its easy to spot those who reject the newness of a world being reborn
is because they cannot stand to lose the old world
there is a reaction that is akin to reacting to a mortal threat
such as a death grip on a doctrine
or a person
or a food
or a drug
or an enemy
etc...
and of course,
this is true in any age or time
"the coming of the lord is always terrifying"...naturally
especially if "the lord" simple means that wave which is simply inevitably and unavoidably coming
regardless of what we say or do about it
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sirguessalot
and so, Dot
so as not to speak around you
or above you
i just want to say that i can also understand this fear of the end times
that, in and of itself, seems an obvious sign of the times
a lot of big changes have just passed
and we are reeling like drunks in pain
and there are more shockwaves of change upon us
and we are not ready
technological changes
environmental changes
social changes
personal changes
floods of new information
new kinds of crazy
and god knows everyone's pool of dear family and friends and enemies wont stop changing on us
we need an anchor that is real
and something better than what we have now
which is what drives us to reach deeper and higher than before
of course
because out of the collapse of any system comes a higher order
and out of new problems come newer solutions
and it seems to me
that the way of Christ is always some radically new way to die and be reborn
and so the good news is not always considered good
to those who simply dont want to die and be reborn
so we go kicking and screaming, instead
those parts of us that dont want to die
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lindyhopper
Nice post, +/-ODD
Living in the moment would definitely be the end of time(s).
The moment of truth.
Knowing your way with words, I assume this was not a typo
But if it was, it made my day anyway.
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sirguessalot
thanks, Lindy
and yeah, that is a typo
but it does seem to work either way, duznt it...
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TheInvisibleDan
"So ya-
Tell meeeeee
over 'n over 'n over
and over a-gain,
my friend -
ya don't be-lieve me -
we're on the Eve of -
DESTRUCTION!"
Love that old, happy sounding
apocalyptic music.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Friends
God loves you my dear friend
Are these the end times?
first I must ask for who?
If I am going to live until the age of 70 and I am now 46 it not the end of times for me but if I am going to live until age of 46 and I am now age 46 it is the end of times for me
When it is close to the time I will take my last breath then to me it will be the end of times to me
What if there are many returns of Christ and many first comings of Christ?
one first coming of Christ into your life and one return to lead you into changed -- the new body
While it seems by numbers time will run out before we enter the seven 1,000 year as we are now in the 6th 1000 year of hisory or the 6th day of God
For God's 7th day will be a day of rest
but there do we begin to count
at creation, or the day sin came
from Adam creation day in God's measurement day 1 to the 1st 1,000 years for one day or from Adam sin day in God's measurement day 1 to the 1st 1,000 years ?
The year 1997 was the 6th day to God by God's measurement from the creation begining
But 2027 will be the the 6th day to God by God's measurement from the ministry of sin
While I personally believe we are in the last days for me there are too many questions to answer
so what I say watch and be ready as if you might die the next 1,000,0000 of a second -- as a figure of speech
but we all reach to live long lives on this earth
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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sirguessalot
:)
i especially love the way you started that, Roy
cuz i think it really points at a few really important things
especially how one's very sense of identity is found in how we answer that first question
and how we have found amazingly diverse range of ways to answer it throughout the history of human experience
the shape of our perceived place in time seems very closely connected to the shape and texture of our self-sense
i mean...are we not also made of star dust?
which is already billions of years old?
are we not also the clear space between our thoughts?
btw...when did that sense of self first enter time?
did we not also mostly think the world was closing in on us
and coming to a violent end on our original birth day?
some people find their sense of identity in their physical bodies alone
and some include their clothes
and some include their house and car
some people identify with their dreams
and visit their body as a guest would visit a house
some identify strongly with their tribe, or team, or nation
and react much like a flock of birds turn as one on a breeze
and back when we were all little perinatel podlings
we thought that when our bodies were being pushed out of the womb
we identified with the womb at the time, and thought we were being ripped out of our own bodies
any such "coming of the lord" is awesome and terrifying, indeed
of course, whether we scream bloody murder or not
depends on a lot of lot of lot of things
and the end of time, it seems
comes differently to each whole
in waves and streams
and cycles and seasons
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year2027
God first
Beloved Todd or sirguessalot
God loves us all my dear friend
I wanted to just say yes but something within me moved for me to say more
O how I see a endness amount of questions on many things
Like when I was talking about the age of the earth on another board
I said more or less to true-ly answer that qustion can not be done because the math problem is so big
just for one grain of dust
one would have to know its born?
what is its purest state?
how pure is it now?
how long is it in the womb or egg?
how long is it in the stage of baby, child, in its prime, middle age, and old age?
the differ in health of a grain of dust?
does it have enough to eat?
how many things does it need to live?
what kind is it? dirt dust, mental dust, the list is endness
how fast did it decay it its purest state?
how fast does it decay now?
and everything above on the needs it needs
and this is just one thing and one have to do this on all things a lone and in every way they are mixed.
I believe everything is born, lives, and dies,
I believe everything eats, drinks, breaths and has offspring
just not in the same way we do like birds used egg out layed outside the body and we just eggs inside the body
than we could get into things like the spirit within us
how healthy is it?
how must do we feed it?
how fast is it growing?
do we know its there?
this is endless to
and how well we watch for the coming depends on how in tone we are with our spirit
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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WordWolf
Every minute that passes bring us closer to "the end times".
If Jesus is to be believed, no man knows the hour.
I like to say that this means the longest warning we could get would be 59 minutes,
since that would mean a man knew in LESS than an hour.
Now, soon, or far in the future, I am confident there WILL be such a time.
Others are confident there will not. Some aren't sure.
Somebody's right.
No matter how you slice it, none of the positions affect how I live my life.
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T-Bone
Yes I think we're getting closer to the end times. I remember the day of 9/11 – I actually thought it was happening! It's scary how quickly reason can go out the window in a major catastrophic event!
When it comes to the topic of the Rapture, the Return of Christ, end times, etc. I often recall the irresponsible attitudes TWI's teachings fostered. I remembered traveling to a big area meeting with our branch coordinator – the whole trip he kept encouraging me to loosen up on my purse strings at restaurants [what little money my wife and I had living the "more than abundant TWI lifestyle"
] – and it was usually chipping in more than our share towards the check. As always he'd launch into one of his polished, slick salesman mode of monologues referring to the imminent return of Christ justifying such a cavalier attitude towards finances. Sorry to bring this up in doctrinal but I thought it's an important aspect – how doctrine affects practice.
Since I left TWI I try to focus more on the here and now – and what my Lord wants me to do – and the short answer is ---- live responsibly! That is His point in Matthew 25:1-13 about the 10 bridesmaids – 5 wise bridesmaids brought extra oil since they didn't know when the bridegroom was returning. And I also think about Paul's words in II Thessalonians 3:7-13. After talking about the Rapture and the Return of Christ [in both I and II Thessalonians] Paul in this passage mentions how he and the others with him did not live an undisciplined life – but they actually worked for a living! Not like the busybodies in verse 11 that didn't work.
I think sometimes when we focus on end times stuff – we forget about our own "end time" – what time we each have left to live. I think of Jesus' parable in Luke 12:16-21 of the rich man planning to build more storage barns – not knowing he will die that night. Jesus' comment was that the man didn't plan on storing any riches with God. This passage makes me add some forward thinking to the idea of living responsibly here and now from Matthew 25 and II Thessalonians 3. I'm to gear up for whatever is next on God's timetable – by living responsibly for God right now!
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mstar1
HERE"S a guy with a really strange take on the matter, that I found while reading the papers today.
GOP delaying 2nd coming
Even if you believed in a literal second coming , Im hard pressed to think Bush has all that much power to stop JC from doing his thing, but then again he is the devil isnt he?
Strange
This guy is taking donations and flying around in his own 747 to preach this.
gee who woulda guessed?
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GarthP2000
He is probably making the IRS sit up and take notice since he's directly calling for the voting out of specific politicians, and the IRS don't like that coming from groups who are exempt from paying taxes.
<_<
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