Excellent points, Goey !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For ol' VPW and following it was the lordship of his skewed interpretation of the Bible. I can remember lots of meetings where he'd yammer on about what he might allow in his life maybe wouldn't be right for someone else, it's just a walk, or "I've so renewed my mind that I can handle _ _ _ _ _" [and any TWI follower can use this as well, just fill in the blank with the sin of your choice]."… This is some risky business for anyone that takes their Christian Faith seriously. Just because there's always the possibility of a wrong interpretation or misapplication of a passage…Your post really got me excited pointing out how TWI's version of renewed mind pretty much killed any personal relationship with Christ. And what a powerful sedative to the conscience this TWI-renewed-mind really is!!!
*Ever searching but never coming unto a knowledge of the truth* comes to mind
This is what was wrong with life in twi.
they no longer search, they now just coast, so it's even worse. there's nothing left there to passionately embrace except a bunch of dumb rules and lame sunday school-style teachings. I was left with the feeling that there was no possibility of being anything but lukewarm if I stayed, because it was obviously not a christian ministry.
What has "renewed mind" come to in twi these days? Anyone know?
I ask because I was just talking with a close relative yesterday talking about my boys (1 & 3 y/o) and how they are at eachother constantly taking toys, pushing, etc, especially the 3 year old. I was told I could teach him not to do that (duh) and that this was basically just lack of renewing his mind. :blink: My first thought was "Are you insane", but I didn't say that.
WTF does that mean? I know what I was taught in twi and how it was misused over the years to me and others, but WTF does this mean in light of a 3 year old acting.....3. I do remember my young brother getting yelled at to renew his mind, but this made no sense to me.
I think what it has evolved into is "control your mind." I also remember my young bro getting yelled at from a young age to "control his thinking." A tall order for a little boy who is getting whacked with a spoon in the proccess.
Sad thing is, I think this is exactly what the Bible is talking about and what many of you are talking about, except probably not in the context of a young child. Of course, on the other hand, in the Bible we are constantly refered to as children or young children, so prehaps I see where they were getting it from.
Bliss, quite frankly, the quote from the site you posted raises the hair on the back of my neck. I actually agree with the general point the person was making, but the language sounds more like, "don't let others control your mind, give up control to God." Perhaps that makes a lot of sense to many of you and that is fine, but for me I think there is a reason I have a brian, a mind, and I agree "as a man thinketh, so is he."
To me that statement is about as simple as anyone can put it. I don't really see the confusion. Change your thinking---> changes your actions----> changes you life. "As a man thinketh so is he." That is how you are transformed.
I am no seller of formula, but that is how life works. Our words and actions protray who we are and it all starts in the mind. New thoughts energize new actions and if you do it long enough, the old will pass away.
It is like going on a diet or exercise regimen. At first it may be hard and you have to constantly tell yourself, "don't eat that," or "get up you lazy piece of sh t and go run!" As you continue to do it these reminders are no longer neccessary and running becomes a need in you life and chocolate cake is unappealing to you.
I can see how one might read Rom. 12: 1,2 and say the "transforming" is all God's job. Now I don't know Greek, but a simple read of the verse tells me that the transforming is BY the renewing of the mind, and I see no other way to read it other than ME and YOU do our own renewing.
The problem is that as Geoy said, I think it has little to do with explitcit fundamental reading of the Bible and more to do with general ideas that are repeated over and over again in it (last part not what Geoy said). Nor IMO does it have anything to do with spirit. Spirit does not make you new person. Well, some may think that but I think most agree it doesn't in terms of your thoughts and actions. People can change who they are as a person for the better or not, do a total 180 or not, throw a whole new pot or not, regardless of whether you or I or they think they have spirit or not.
I see no other way to read it, please show me one if you can. Verse one beseaches YOU to "PRESENT YOUR body" as a living sacrafice "holy, acceptable, unto God" and this is YOUR reasonable service. WE are not to be conformed but WE are to be "transformed BY the renewing of YOUR mind" so that YOU prove what is the good and acceptable will of God. It is about controling our thinking and thereby our actions and REASONING through those thoughts and then our actions to prove what is good and acceptable.
So when I said earlier, "the sad thing is..." I was not talking about sad that we have to control our thinking but that twi used and still uses this as a legalistic devise to lord over people. Sad thing is many times people read this verse and give up the control either to the book or to other people. To me the verse clearly puts the ball in our court.
Put away bad things that are hurtful to you and to others and reason through what is good and acceptable and prove it with your actions.
Renewing you mind is such a vital part of human growth
Evaluating your opinions- their validity, their foundations their role in your life.
do they hinder you?
do they harm others?
how do you change them?
do you want to change them/
Is God part of your equation?
Who do you regard as influential in your decision making?
Is pleasing others always paramount?
these are a mere handful of questions that are part of that process
TO insist that one book,. one ministry, one set of thought patterns in accomplishing this is all encompassing for all people at all times is completely ludicrous
I look at Rom 12:2, as we all do with everthing, with the filter of my experiences and observations, although i think there are certain universal truths, which is a phrase that is really a little redundant.
Take for example, conformity. It does not take much thought to conform to the mainstream. In fact in most cases it probably requires no thought at all. It is more of a reactionary response to pressure, however little or great, subtle or blatant, it may be. So, if that is how we have lived then what do we do?
We take all that crap and wipe the mental slate clean, we renew it and start over with a fresh look, much the same way many of us have done here concerning twi. And crazy enough as it is....it changes your life.
Correct me folks if I'm wrong. I think what you are referring to as renewing your mind is still an influence of twi thinking (I'm not trying to be critical, I'm still working on it too.) We do control our thinking. Yes we do tramsform our thinking, but it's not a regimented life time process that we try to get better at doing. That would be works.
God did a one time thing in Jesus Christ when he made available holy spirit to us. I'ts up to us to believe it or not. That's what I believe the transforming means. We endeavor to think on the finished work of Jesus Christ in each situation. But we are not perfect, far from it. I believe God knows we are frail creatures with many faults. He doesn't expect us to be perfect all the time. That's why he sent Jesus Christ, he did it for us.
I believe Twi has twisted the context of this phrase in a legalistic sense that we should't do anythng wrong and if we do we haven't renewed our mind. Thus to renew the mind it to believe in the accomplished works of Jesus Christ.
Here I am. In the forbidden topic. I have supposively vowed to refrain from topics regarding doctrine. It seems I always offend someone because of my lack of understanding something and then spouting off and in the process, offending someone.
So much for refraining.
Notawafer hit the nail on the head when he/she posed the question,
Renew our mind to what???
That was one of the many breakdowns in TWI. The assumption (and we know assumption is the mother of all catastrophes[this is a family show]) was that everyone knew what to 'renew our minds to". The fact is the one telling us to renew our minds was guilty of not telling us the verse they were thinking. As soon as doctrinal issues became vague, there was only one road left. DOWN! ! !
I know many of you here took the renewed mind class. Don't be offended with my remaining post. I'm not trying to insult your intelligence. The question was raised.
The term in Romans 12:2 is 'renewing of your mind'. Breaking it down gramatically, to renew simply is to make new again. Since 'renewing' is a pariciple, it would indicate a constant action in the present. It appears there could be two contexts to consider. One, not conforming to this world, and if there is a second, it would have to revert back to chapter 10, possibly verse 17 or 9
In general terms and application, wouldn't it make sense that the first time you hear a particular verse in it's proper context with understanding, that as life confronts us with the errors of the culture, that we would then make new again that verse as it applies to our situation?
I know.... someone is going to spin off of "proper context" but to be more clear, I submit the following example;
The world is full of lies. So, an event occurs in my life in which I would fit right in by lying. However, because someone showed me Ephesians 4:15 which says:
"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:"
So, I then have a decision to make; to speak the truth or to lie.
Correct me folks if I'm wrong. I think what you are referring to as renewing your mind is still an influence of twi thinking (I'm not trying to be critical, I'm still working on it too.)
Perhaps you are right, although, I did say that I am reading this throught he filter of my experiences and observations. That said, I do try to wipe the slate clean occasionally and look at things with fresh eyes. THAT said, I still think I am reading this correctly and I think you acutally see it the same way, just with a different emphasis. I also think you might have misunderstood my poorly written post, which looks a little contradictory in parts now as I re-read it. Oh well.
We do control our thinking. Yes we do tramsform our thinking, but it's not a regimented life time process that we try to get better at doing. That would be works.
That is basically what I was saying. I didn't mean to imply that it needed to be regimented. Although, that does work in most other areas of life. The problem with TWI was and is (maybe to a lesser degree at the moment) that they did this for you and DEMANDED it of you. Many of the self-help, motivational speaker, guru, techniques VPW and LCM turned into a religion actually do work at times, with some people, to certain degrees. It should not be taught as a religion, universally applied and required, though, IMO, and a religion should not teach the valuable and helpful teachings in the Bible in this way either.
God did a one time thing in Jesus Christ when he made available holy spirit to us. I'ts up to us to believe it or not. That's what I believe the transforming means. We endeavor to think on the finished work of Jesus Christ in each situation. But we are not perfect, far from it. I believe God knows we are frail creatures with many faults. He doesn't expect us to be perfect all the time. That's why he sent Jesus Christ, he did it for us.
This is what I mean by different emphasis. You state that we are not perfect and that God doesn't expect us to be. How is this not "a regimented life time process that we try to get better at doing." Maybe not reginmented, but if we are not trying to become better human beings or sons of God then we obviously are thinking that we are pretty damn good as is, perhaps "higher than we ought to think." We shouldn't try to become better people to try and prove something about ourselves to others or to God as if our works make us holy. But "show me your faith without works...." Show me anything worth anything that doesn't require works. Show me how you prove what is good and acceptable without works.
You said that JC's accomplishments was the "transforming," but that transformation was a one time occuance when you believed, but it says "renewING" to "prove" and that the transformation is by the renewing. The transformation you speak of requires believing not renewing and the context is to those that have already made THAT transformation.
I may be using less specific and religous words but I think we are talking about the same things. Whether you emphisize JC's accomplishments or whether I emphisize the congnative impetus to prove what is morally right there will be a transformation regardless. Because if niether of us do either of those things, then we will become conformed to the mainstream downward spiral of the world. Because conformity is a brainless, fear driven, yet comfortable and acceptable accomplishment on this planet. Transformation will happen becuase we renew our minds to something better than that, because the mediocrity of conformity is the destination of the life on autopilot.
Look at the verses on either side of ROm 12: 1,2, on both sides you have mention of "not thinking too highley of oneself" and in verse one you have "living sacrifice." "Grafted on an olive tree" is on one side and the "one body" is on the other. In the middle you have renewing your mind and transformation. I think this is about going from the old "worldly, high-minded" you to the "good and acceptable, humble" you who looks at yourself in relation to those around you, whether that be on the olive tree or in the one body. Recognizing your humble position and the importants of others no matter their position and your connection to them can be a life changing and transforming outlook.
Here I am. In the forbidden topic. I have supposively vowed to refrain from topics regarding doctrine. It seems I always offend someone because of my lack of understanding something and then spouting off and in the process, offending someone.
So much for refraining.
Notawafer hit the nail on the head when he/she posed the question,
That was one of the many breakdowns in TWI. The assumption (and we know assumption is the mother of all catastrophes[this is a family show]) was that everyone knew what to 'renew our minds to". The fact is the one telling us to renew our minds was guilty of not telling us the verse they were thinking. As soon as doctrinal issues became vague, there was only one road left. DOWN! ! !
I know many of you here took the renewed mind class. Don't be offended with my remaining post. I'm not trying to insult your intelligence. The question was raised.
The term in Romans 12:2 is 'renewing of your mind'. Breaking it down gramatically, to renew simply is to make new again. Since 'renewing' is a pariciple, it would indicate a constant action in the present. It appears there could be two contexts to consider. One, not conforming to this world, and if there is a second, it would have to revert back to chapter 10, possibly verse 17 or 9
In general terms and application, wouldn't it make sense that the first time you hear a particular verse in it's proper context with understanding, that as life confronts us with the errors of the culture, that we would then make new again that verse as it applies to our situation?
I know.... someone is going to spin off of "proper context" but to be more clear, I submit the following example;
The world is full of lies. So, an event occurs in my life in which I would fit right in by lying. However, because someone showed me Ephesians 4:15 which says:
"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:"
So, I then have a decision to make; to speak the truth or to lie.
That should be all I have to say about that.
Great post.
But one little thing I'd like to correct for you is that "renewing" is (yet again another) mistranslation in the King James Version.
The Greek word for "renewing" is the word "anakainosis." It is a noun. As used, it is in the Dative (indirect object) case. It means a renovation, renewal. The related verb is "transform," which is used in the passive voice.
The bottom line is that is that you are being transformed (by a source unnamed) by the renovation of your mind. The renovation of your mind is the "what" that occurs when the transformation (action) takes place. It is reasonable to imply that the entity doing the transforming is God.
This is not to say that the Christian shouldn't control his thinking...but that the renovation (renewal) of the mind is something accomplished for the Christian (enabling that control of the thinking) is accomplished FOR him, not BY him.
I can see how that would also make sense to the Christian, Mark, but what would the admonishion of "be not conformed to this world" matter much if the Christian is being transformed beyond their control. And what is that "but" doing there in between the two?
I can see how that would also make sense to the Christian, Mark, but what would the admonishion of "be not conformed to this world" matter much if the Christian is being transformed beyond their control. And what is that "but" doing there in between the two?
One has to allow the transformation. That little buggaboo about free will. (By the way, the conformed to the world should be translated "conform yourself to this age") -- conform is in the middle voice, while transform is in the passive voice.
The word "but" simply means "but"
You conform yourself to the current age or you allow yourself to be transformed
Much of Romans is about ''It is NOT OF WORKS" GRACE GRACE GRACE, NOT OF WORKS NOT OF WORKS.....
(don't get me started on ''works'' based Christianity)
Paul emphasizes this tremendously here. So, why then, would this verse state now YOU have to do this BIG thing, (and it is BIG) seeing that so many of us are challenged here............and DO A WORK!(Renew YOU MIND DARNIT!)
It wouldn't make sense. The work we do is to ''allow'' it to happen. I know, so not TWI. That is the beauty of it.
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do HIS good pleasure'' Phill 2:13
How do you ''do God's will," if you don't allow HIM to do it? That way, HE gets the glory. He's always seeking it. Everytime we say ''I renew my mind in such and such case", who gets the credit for being such a good little Christian? That whosever is the ''best'' at ''renewing their mind'' shall be the best WAYFER moving up the tree!
None of this implies we stop thinking, on the contrary. It just requires a surrendering, yeilding heart, like the one Christ had for HIS FATHER. In complete obedience to HIM, even unto death.
Lindy, when I first left and went to a church, and I heard the words, ''Jesus, we just love you''.
The hairs stood up on the back of my neck too.
Until I took the Way glasses off.
Now, I kick myself for not having said that ALL THOSE YEARS!
Rmember the verse ''I can do all things...........through Christ which stregnthens me" Phill 4:13?
I use to say the first part a lot. "I" can do all things.
But, its through Christ, and through Him, He does the stregnthening.
When?
When I let him.
I didn't allow that because of wrong teaching. I had the power, the control, (cuz, you don't want a devil spirit sneaking in there you know), so it was still all about ME. Even though we said with our lips, ''Christ in me", we emphasized the ME part above Christ.
At least in my life.
I am the first to say, I don't know much. It is a learning process for all of us. I have learned and prayed about this since leaving, and it's been the biggest blessing and ''transformation'' for Mr. Bliss and I.
Never been happier, never been more peaceful and close with God.
But, everyone has their own perspective and observations. I just rest on the fact that God does the teaching, not me or any of us. I just allow Him room to move through my hands and feet now.(oh, and lips, lol)
For example, the implication in a sympathetic tone of waybrain. No offence taken, but clearly my points have been thought through and considered and not just parroted back as I might have done in my Way daze.
Mark I can see what you are saying and that your assumption that God is doing the transformation is indeed reasonable due to the fact that this is the Bible we are reading. Although, strictly grammatically speaking, assuming that being in the passive voice automatically means that one is being acted upon is an incorrect assumption. One clue is that there is not an active counterpart in this context. The reason we know this is passive tense is the use of an auxiliory verb in "transformed by the renewing." That is the only reason. That being the case, "transformed" is an ergative verb and is used in an intransitive construciton, meaning that no agent is mentioned and that the subject can be acting on itself. This can still be considered passive voice, but could more accurately be considered middle voice or mediopassive voice.
We could also look at this a little differently, seeing that the English and Greek use periphrastic passive. The figure of speach periphrasis is using many phrases or words to express the meaning of another word or concept. So that basically means that in this case "transform" and "renewing your mind" are the same things said two different ways conveying the change. This is what I think many of you are implying that it is God who is both renewing and transforming in one proccess which we allow. I can see that in the context of the Bible and of Romans, but I don't see that in this immediate context. I see a context of what an individual should do in their head: not be high-minded, remember your place in the body and that you were graphed on this "tree" and can be broken off it just the same, prove what is the good and acceptable will of God. So I see the transformation and the renewing, renewal, renovation (doesn't really matter) as being done by the subject in this case...you and I.
I can also see that in the context of the Bible being read a certain way that one cannot perform this proving without first being transformed by being born again. I disagree, but I can see that. It doesn't seem that any of you have a problem with one controling their thinking even though, as I pointed out, that alone can be a transforming act. It seems the big problem is the idea that we have to do this "BIG thing" of transformation, even though this big thing is made up of very simple small steps over time, step by step thought by thought. Consider the exercise analogy again. The huge transformation of loosing fifty pounds is accomplished by small steps, one by one, pound by pound, thought by thought, day by day exercising, the pounds come off and the transformation takes place. TAKES PLACE. The transformation is both the final destination and the process. It is very doable
But I am not going to convince anyone here of this. So lets compromise. So lets look at the New Living Translation. (BTW, in all major mainstream translations I see renewing, renewal, or transformed in the newness [Latin].) The NLT puts it this way,
Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think.
God will not change the way you think, free will, you allow him to transform you by YOU changing the way you think. In my non-professional opinion, this puts it very well in the immediate context and the context of Romans and the Bible, I just disagree with a few words, like God.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Oh, and bye Bliss. You and your family have a Merry Christmas
Dear Lindyhopper- Nice work, I think we are on the same page. I see where you are coming from. I think what Mark and Bliss referred to help me put it together. In a nutshell-we control our thinking but we are renewed by grace not works.
Thanks for the correction. In all the years in the Corps, 10th for 1 year and the full 14th Copse term, I was never privy to a Greek class. I took the Aramaic class and ate it up.
So, I failed to go to the Greek text. Thanks for pointing this out.
2 Corinthians 10:5 "Casting down every imagination and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ."
or is it
2 TWI CP1 "Casting down every imagination and every high thing that exalts the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of TWI."
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T-Bone
Excellent points, Goey !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For ol' VPW and following it was the lordship of his skewed interpretation of the Bible. I can remember lots of meetings where he'd yammer on about what he might allow in his life maybe wouldn't be right for someone else, it's just a walk, or "I've so renewed my mind that I can handle _ _ _ _ _" [and any TWI follower can use this as well, just fill in the blank with the sin of your choice]."… This is some risky business for anyone that takes their Christian Faith seriously. Just because there's always the possibility of a wrong interpretation or misapplication of a passage…Your post really got me excited pointing out how TWI's version of renewed mind pretty much killed any personal relationship with Christ. And what a powerful sedative to the conscience this TWI-renewed-mind really is!!!
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rascal
Brilliant Goey!
Scripture is no replacement or substitute for Jesus Christ!!!!
*Ever searching but never coming unto a knowledge of the truth* comes to mind
This is what was wrong with life in twi.
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potato
they no longer search, they now just coast, so it's even worse. there's nothing left there to passionately embrace except a bunch of dumb rules and lame sunday school-style teachings. I was left with the feeling that there was no possibility of being anything but lukewarm if I stayed, because it was obviously not a christian ministry.
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lindyhopper
What has "renewed mind" come to in twi these days? Anyone know?
I ask because I was just talking with a close relative yesterday talking about my boys (1 & 3 y/o) and how they are at eachother constantly taking toys, pushing, etc, especially the 3 year old. I was told I could teach him not to do that (duh) and that this was basically just lack of renewing his mind. :blink: My first thought was "Are you insane", but I didn't say that.
WTF does that mean? I know what I was taught in twi and how it was misused over the years to me and others, but WTF does this mean in light of a 3 year old acting.....3. I do remember my young brother getting yelled at to renew his mind, but this made no sense to me.
I think what it has evolved into is "control your mind." I also remember my young bro getting yelled at from a young age to "control his thinking." A tall order for a little boy who is getting whacked with a spoon in the proccess.
Sad thing is, I think this is exactly what the Bible is talking about and what many of you are talking about, except probably not in the context of a young child. Of course, on the other hand, in the Bible we are constantly refered to as children or young children, so prehaps I see where they were getting it from.
Bliss, quite frankly, the quote from the site you posted raises the hair on the back of my neck. I actually agree with the general point the person was making, but the language sounds more like, "don't let others control your mind, give up control to God." Perhaps that makes a lot of sense to many of you and that is fine, but for me I think there is a reason I have a brian, a mind, and I agree "as a man thinketh, so is he."
To me that statement is about as simple as anyone can put it. I don't really see the confusion. Change your thinking---> changes your actions----> changes you life. "As a man thinketh so is he." That is how you are transformed.
I am no seller of formula, but that is how life works. Our words and actions protray who we are and it all starts in the mind. New thoughts energize new actions and if you do it long enough, the old will pass away.
It is like going on a diet or exercise regimen. At first it may be hard and you have to constantly tell yourself, "don't eat that," or "get up you lazy piece of sh t and go run!" As you continue to do it these reminders are no longer neccessary and running becomes a need in you life and chocolate cake is unappealing to you.
I can see how one might read Rom. 12: 1,2 and say the "transforming" is all God's job. Now I don't know Greek, but a simple read of the verse tells me that the transforming is BY the renewing of the mind, and I see no other way to read it other than ME and YOU do our own renewing.
The problem is that as Geoy said, I think it has little to do with explitcit fundamental reading of the Bible and more to do with general ideas that are repeated over and over again in it (last part not what Geoy said). Nor IMO does it have anything to do with spirit. Spirit does not make you new person. Well, some may think that but I think most agree it doesn't in terms of your thoughts and actions. People can change who they are as a person for the better or not, do a total 180 or not, throw a whole new pot or not, regardless of whether you or I or they think they have spirit or not.
I see no other way to read it, please show me one if you can. Verse one beseaches YOU to "PRESENT YOUR body" as a living sacrafice "holy, acceptable, unto God" and this is YOUR reasonable service. WE are not to be conformed but WE are to be "transformed BY the renewing of YOUR mind" so that YOU prove what is the good and acceptable will of God. It is about controling our thinking and thereby our actions and REASONING through those thoughts and then our actions to prove what is good and acceptable.
So when I said earlier, "the sad thing is..." I was not talking about sad that we have to control our thinking but that twi used and still uses this as a legalistic devise to lord over people. Sad thing is many times people read this verse and give up the control either to the book or to other people. To me the verse clearly puts the ball in our court.
Put away bad things that are hurtful to you and to others and reason through what is good and acceptable and prove it with your actions.
Thats the way I see it anyway.
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templelady
Renewing you mind is such a vital part of human growth
Evaluating your opinions- their validity, their foundations their role in your life.
do they hinder you?
do they harm others?
how do you change them?
do you want to change them/
Is God part of your equation?
Who do you regard as influential in your decision making?
Is pleasing others always paramount?
these are a mere handful of questions that are part of that process
TO insist that one book,. one ministry, one set of thought patterns in accomplishing this is all encompassing for all people at all times is completely ludicrous
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lindyhopper
Amen to that, Dipsey Farkletush.
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lindyhopper
I look at Rom 12:2, as we all do with everthing, with the filter of my experiences and observations, although i think there are certain universal truths, which is a phrase that is really a little redundant.
Take for example, conformity. It does not take much thought to conform to the mainstream. In fact in most cases it probably requires no thought at all. It is more of a reactionary response to pressure, however little or great, subtle or blatant, it may be. So, if that is how we have lived then what do we do?
We take all that crap and wipe the mental slate clean, we renew it and start over with a fresh look, much the same way many of us have done here concerning twi. And crazy enough as it is....it changes your life.
And here we are.
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waterbuffalo
Beautiful, Bliss, Beautiful!!!!!!!!
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polar bear
Dear Lindyhopper-Here's the way I see it.
Correct me folks if I'm wrong. I think what you are referring to as renewing your mind is still an influence of twi thinking (I'm not trying to be critical, I'm still working on it too.) We do control our thinking. Yes we do tramsform our thinking, but it's not a regimented life time process that we try to get better at doing. That would be works.
God did a one time thing in Jesus Christ when he made available holy spirit to us. I'ts up to us to believe it or not. That's what I believe the transforming means. We endeavor to think on the finished work of Jesus Christ in each situation. But we are not perfect, far from it. I believe God knows we are frail creatures with many faults. He doesn't expect us to be perfect all the time. That's why he sent Jesus Christ, he did it for us.
I believe Twi has twisted the context of this phrase in a legalistic sense that we should't do anythng wrong and if we do we haven't renewed our mind. Thus to renew the mind it to believe in the accomplished works of Jesus Christ.
Does this make sense, anyone?
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YIdon'tgotochurch
Here I am. In the forbidden topic. I have supposively vowed to refrain from topics regarding doctrine. It seems I always offend someone because of my lack of understanding something and then spouting off and in the process, offending someone.
So much for refraining.
Notawafer hit the nail on the head when he/she posed the question,
That was one of the many breakdowns in TWI. The assumption (and we know assumption is the mother of all catastrophes[this is a family show]) was that everyone knew what to 'renew our minds to". The fact is the one telling us to renew our minds was guilty of not telling us the verse they were thinking. As soon as doctrinal issues became vague, there was only one road left. DOWN! ! !
I know many of you here took the renewed mind class. Don't be offended with my remaining post. I'm not trying to insult your intelligence. The question was raised.
The term in Romans 12:2 is 'renewing of your mind'. Breaking it down gramatically, to renew simply is to make new again. Since 'renewing' is a pariciple, it would indicate a constant action in the present. It appears there could be two contexts to consider. One, not conforming to this world, and if there is a second, it would have to revert back to chapter 10, possibly verse 17 or 9
In general terms and application, wouldn't it make sense that the first time you hear a particular verse in it's proper context with understanding, that as life confronts us with the errors of the culture, that we would then make new again that verse as it applies to our situation?
I know.... someone is going to spin off of "proper context" but to be more clear, I submit the following example;
The world is full of lies. So, an event occurs in my life in which I would fit right in by lying. However, because someone showed me Ephesians 4:15 which says:
"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:"
So, I then have a decision to make; to speak the truth or to lie.
That should be all I have to say about that.
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lindyhopper
That is basically what I was saying. I didn't mean to imply that it needed to be regimented. Although, that does work in most other areas of life. The problem with TWI was and is (maybe to a lesser degree at the moment) that they did this for you and DEMANDED it of you. Many of the self-help, motivational speaker, guru, techniques VPW and LCM turned into a religion actually do work at times, with some people, to certain degrees. It should not be taught as a religion, universally applied and required, though, IMO, and a religion should not teach the valuable and helpful teachings in the Bible in this way either.
This is what I mean by different emphasis. You state that we are not perfect and that God doesn't expect us to be. How is this not "a regimented life time process that we try to get better at doing." Maybe not reginmented, but if we are not trying to become better human beings or sons of God then we obviously are thinking that we are pretty damn good as is, perhaps "higher than we ought to think." We shouldn't try to become better people to try and prove something about ourselves to others or to God as if our works make us holy. But "show me your faith without works...." Show me anything worth anything that doesn't require works. Show me how you prove what is good and acceptable without works.
You said that JC's accomplishments was the "transforming," but that transformation was a one time occuance when you believed, but it says "renewING" to "prove" and that the transformation is by the renewing. The transformation you speak of requires believing not renewing and the context is to those that have already made THAT transformation.
I may be using less specific and religous words but I think we are talking about the same things. Whether you emphisize JC's accomplishments or whether I emphisize the congnative impetus to prove what is morally right there will be a transformation regardless. Because if niether of us do either of those things, then we will become conformed to the mainstream downward spiral of the world. Because conformity is a brainless, fear driven, yet comfortable and acceptable accomplishment on this planet. Transformation will happen becuase we renew our minds to something better than that, because the mediocrity of conformity is the destination of the life on autopilot.
Look at the verses on either side of ROm 12: 1,2, on both sides you have mention of "not thinking too highley of oneself" and in verse one you have "living sacrifice." "Grafted on an olive tree" is on one side and the "one body" is on the other. In the middle you have renewing your mind and transformation. I think this is about going from the old "worldly, high-minded" you to the "good and acceptable, humble" you who looks at yourself in relation to those around you, whether that be on the olive tree or in the one body. Recognizing your humble position and the importants of others no matter their position and your connection to them can be a life changing and transforming outlook.
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markomalley
Great post.
But one little thing I'd like to correct for you is that "renewing" is (yet again another) mistranslation in the King James Version.
The Greek word for "renewing" is the word "anakainosis." It is a noun. As used, it is in the Dative (indirect object) case. It means a renovation, renewal. The related verb is "transform," which is used in the passive voice.
The bottom line is that is that you are being transformed (by a source unnamed) by the renovation of your mind. The renovation of your mind is the "what" that occurs when the transformation (action) takes place. It is reasonable to imply that the entity doing the transforming is God.
This is not to say that the Christian shouldn't control his thinking...but that the renovation (renewal) of the mind is something accomplished for the Christian (enabling that control of the thinking) is accomplished FOR him, not BY him.
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lindyhopper
I can see how that would also make sense to the Christian, Mark, but what would the admonishion of "be not conformed to this world" matter much if the Christian is being transformed beyond their control. And what is that "but" doing there in between the two?
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markomalley
One has to allow the transformation. That little buggaboo about free will. (By the way, the conformed to the world should be translated "conform yourself to this age") -- conform is in the middle voice, while transform is in the passive voice.
The word "but" simply means "but"
You conform yourself to the current age or you allow yourself to be transformed
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bliss
Nice posts everyone.
Much of Romans is about ''It is NOT OF WORKS" GRACE GRACE GRACE, NOT OF WORKS NOT OF WORKS.....
(don't get me started on ''works'' based Christianity)
Paul emphasizes this tremendously here. So, why then, would this verse state now YOU have to do this BIG thing, (and it is BIG) seeing that so many of us are challenged here............and DO A WORK!(Renew YOU MIND DARNIT!)
It wouldn't make sense. The work we do is to ''allow'' it to happen. I know, so not TWI. That is the beauty of it.
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do HIS good pleasure'' Phill 2:13
How do you ''do God's will," if you don't allow HIM to do it? That way, HE gets the glory. He's always seeking it. Everytime we say ''I renew my mind in such and such case", who gets the credit for being such a good little Christian? That whosever is the ''best'' at ''renewing their mind'' shall be the best WAYFER moving up the tree!
None of this implies we stop thinking, on the contrary. It just requires a surrendering, yeilding heart, like the one Christ had for HIS FATHER. In complete obedience to HIM, even unto death.
Lindy, when I first left and went to a church, and I heard the words, ''Jesus, we just love you''.
The hairs stood up on the back of my neck too.
Until I took the Way glasses off.
Now, I kick myself for not having said that ALL THOSE YEARS!
Rmember the verse ''I can do all things...........through Christ which stregnthens me" Phill 4:13?
I use to say the first part a lot. "I" can do all things.
But, its through Christ, and through Him, He does the stregnthening.
When?
When I let him.
I didn't allow that because of wrong teaching. I had the power, the control, (cuz, you don't want a devil spirit sneaking in there you know), so it was still all about ME. Even though we said with our lips, ''Christ in me", we emphasized the ME part above Christ.
At least in my life.
I am the first to say, I don't know much. It is a learning process for all of us. I have learned and prayed about this since leaving, and it's been the biggest blessing and ''transformation'' for Mr. Bliss and I.
Never been happier, never been more peaceful and close with God.
But, everyone has their own perspective and observations. I just rest on the fact that God does the teaching, not me or any of us. I just allow Him room to move through my hands and feet now.(oh, and lips, lol)
Have a Merry Christmas and God bless you all!
I will be gone for a little while.
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lindyhopper
For example, the implication in a sympathetic tone of waybrain. No offence taken, but clearly my points have been thought through and considered and not just parroted back as I might have done in my Way daze.
Mark I can see what you are saying and that your assumption that God is doing the transformation is indeed reasonable due to the fact that this is the Bible we are reading. Although, strictly grammatically speaking, assuming that being in the passive voice automatically means that one is being acted upon is an incorrect assumption. One clue is that there is not an active counterpart in this context. The reason we know this is passive tense is the use of an auxiliory verb in "transformed by the renewing." That is the only reason. That being the case, "transformed" is an ergative verb and is used in an intransitive construciton, meaning that no agent is mentioned and that the subject can be acting on itself. This can still be considered passive voice, but could more accurately be considered middle voice or mediopassive voice.
We could also look at this a little differently, seeing that the English and Greek use periphrastic passive. The figure of speach periphrasis is using many phrases or words to express the meaning of another word or concept. So that basically means that in this case "transform" and "renewing your mind" are the same things said two different ways conveying the change. This is what I think many of you are implying that it is God who is both renewing and transforming in one proccess which we allow. I can see that in the context of the Bible and of Romans, but I don't see that in this immediate context. I see a context of what an individual should do in their head: not be high-minded, remember your place in the body and that you were graphed on this "tree" and can be broken off it just the same, prove what is the good and acceptable will of God. So I see the transformation and the renewing, renewal, renovation (doesn't really matter) as being done by the subject in this case...you and I.
I can also see that in the context of the Bible being read a certain way that one cannot perform this proving without first being transformed by being born again. I disagree, but I can see that. It doesn't seem that any of you have a problem with one controling their thinking even though, as I pointed out, that alone can be a transforming act. It seems the big problem is the idea that we have to do this "BIG thing" of transformation, even though this big thing is made up of very simple small steps over time, step by step thought by thought. Consider the exercise analogy again. The huge transformation of loosing fifty pounds is accomplished by small steps, one by one, pound by pound, thought by thought, day by day exercising, the pounds come off and the transformation takes place. TAKES PLACE. The transformation is both the final destination and the process. It is very doable
But I am not going to convince anyone here of this. So lets compromise.
So lets look at the New Living Translation. (BTW, in all major mainstream translations I see renewing, renewal, or transformed in the newness [Latin].) The NLT puts it this way,
God will not change the way you think, free will, you allow him to transform you by YOU changing the way you think. In my non-professional opinion, this puts it very well in the immediate context and the context of Romans and the Bible, I just disagree with a few words, like God.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Oh, and bye Bliss. You and your family have a Merry Christmas
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polar bear
Dear Lindyhopper- Nice work, I think we are on the same page. I see where you are coming from. I think what Mark and Bliss referred to help me put it together. In a nutshell-we control our thinking but we are renewed by grace not works.
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YIdon'tgotochurch
MarkOMalley;
Thanks for the correction. In all the years in the Corps, 10th for 1 year and the full 14th Copse term, I was never privy to a Greek class. I took the Aramaic class and ate it up.
So, I failed to go to the Greek text. Thanks for pointing this out.
That is all I have to say about that.
(Forest Gump we be proud of me)
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Twinky
or is it
2 TWI CP1 "Casting down every imagination and every high thing that exalts the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of TWI."
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