Here is a link to the United Presbyterian Church's finances last year- and this is TYPICAL of religious organizations. Thirty-three pages, independantly audited.. and "available"- to someone who is NOT EVEN A MEMBER of their church (me).
I'm finding it's very typical for non-profits to make their financial information available. obviously twi has reasons to hide what happens to the money. as long as no one knows, no one can question.
Google - Church Financial Statements and you'll see that just about every church in the USA and Canada is represented on there - either their local church financial statements are public or the smaller ones are included in the "Organizational Parent" church, or there's an announcement about when the congregation can come by to look at the books and audits.
I'm going to really upset some. I talked to a friend who sits on the foundation board for a western college and I was informed that even though it may say cumulative, that applies to THAT year. If the information is in one or more reports, it is because that much was donated EACH YEAR!!!!!
So, it looks like someone's kids are having a good old time with our $$$. Belle, you or potato may be able to dig a bit deeper on this. I don't have the contacts I used to. I think they have been scared away from talking to me due to what I've been into because of them.....
It cannot mean that TWI gave this much money each year, nor did anyone else listed there. Their 2005 report states they received 10.2 million in donations, yet there are 3 companies listed as giving between 5 and 9.9 million. If those three companies only gave 5 million each during the year, then total donations would be over 15 million. The numbers don't add up.
The report does say it lists everyone who gave at least $100 during the year, so TWI would have had to given at least $100 for that year. But the number listed for their giving between $100,000 and $500,000 is cumulative over the years. Even so, it's a big number.
tuition payments aren't listed at all. this is definitely a donation, and donations often come with strings attached.
since twi doesn't disclose financial things to anyone, the only way to find out is to ask the University, and I don't know yet how much they can reveal. whatever I find out, I'll post here.
But I managed to get myself a degree and a fledgling career which was stomped on quite severely. If I dared to question anything (to do with what was taught, ask doctrinal questions, etc), what I got was, that I was thinking carnally and exalting myself against the knowledge of God blah blah (not that I was using my God-given brain to think things through!!). (It always seemed weird to me that so many obviously intelligent people were doing such menial and boring jobs in TWI and not fully utilizing their skills unless they were in say Way Builders - but that's thinking carnally...)
Now they are paying for their kids to be trained at Uni level which should encourage them to think things through and develop their carnal thinking??!
Yes they said anyone could look at finances. Once I did wander into the Finance Office and was met smilingly. I was shown around but not shown anything of substance, ie, financial dealings. And throughout my time in rez there was this unspoken thought that it was "bad form" to ask (that would be, if we'd had the time).
I went to a local church recently. They were setting their budget for the year. First was their need for people, to look after burgeoning children and YP groupsl. Then there on big screens for all to see was a note of income and expenditure for the last two years. Also their plans for the next couple of years and where and how the money will be spent. A finance pack with more detail was handed out to all after the meeting, regular attenders getting their named packs, but unnamed packs handed out to anyone who asked. Accompanied by an excellent teaching from 2 Chron about building the temple - laying by stocks, supplies - we are God's dwelling place now. Building and outreach to the local community. Chatted with a member of the finance committee afterwards and he pointed out the treasurer and suggested I also speak with him if I had any questions.
To a total stranger they explain all this.
Yet as a "member" (?) of TWI and one who tithed, such stuff was never offered and it would be carnal to ask.
Good on the kids for getting an education out of TWI, nice for them, God bless 'em.
ok everybody, I got the dirt on what exactly was donated, from UT:
"In 2002, The Way International made an in-kind gift of an acoustic band shell for UT's Doermann Theatre. (Gifts-in-kind are donated goods, rather than monetary contributions.) The one-time gift, valued at approximately $100,000, also qualified the organization for recognition as a "Partner" in the University's cumulative giving society."
so, it was a tax write-off and probably a PR move with the school, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn there was some wheel greasing, too.
so, our ABS only indirectly went to UT. still makes me wonder... why?
Sounds kind of like the way they donated all the ROA stuff to the city and other organizations after it was cancelled.
I never knew that... bet that greased a lot of wheels... end result is money was brought in from all over the world to make it easier for a small group of people to get along with their neighbors, even though they're wackos. no benefit to the rest of the organization's followers that I can see.
Now I have a question for you and Belle or one of the others that understands accounting better than I do.
How can that be used as a tax write-off when TWI is " supposed " to be a tax exempt organization according to IRS code and I wonder what IRS would really have to say about this one???
How can that be used as a tax write-off when TWI is " supposed " to be a tax exempt organization according to IRS code and I wonder what IRS would really have to say about this one???
good point... they got their tax exempt status back after losing it for getting involved in politics. I don't know what monies are exempt, and I don't know what concessions Ohio makes, so I don't know if they would have got any benefit from the donation in that regard.
Acts 5:32 Neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had all things common
:34 For as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that wer sold
:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet...
Clearly doesn't apply to "acoustic band shells" (not "lands or houses") but neither was it their own.
Wouldn't it have been more appropriate to sell it and recover the ABS spent on acquiring it, and use that for "moving the Word"?
What happened with the airplane when that was disposed of? Was it sold or given away? What happens with other items that are surplus to requirements? Emporia campus and all that was in it was (rightly) sold, not given away.
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WordWolf
That's funny-
you were told it was available.
When you asked, you were specifically told it was no longer available.
And yet, from the mainstage at ROA '79,
vpw himself said-3 years after YOU were told it WASN'T- he said it WAS.
(Even if the policy changed 20 minutes before your letter was received,
that's still 3 years' difference.)
Seems like crowds were told it WAS,
but anyone who ASKED was told it WASN'T.
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oldiesman
Wordwolf, I think you are mistaken.
This is why I attempt to get things in writing, because people make mistakes.
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WordWolf
Well, since it's on the tapes from ROA '79, and vpw said, proudly,
"It Is Available",
I consider that as authoritative as vpw putting it in writing.
Perhaps HE was mistaken.
Perhaps he didn't know that the policies had changed at least 3 years ago.
If so, he suddenly seems to know a LOT less than he usually did....
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oldiesman
I have to listen to the tape to get the context.
Can you mail me a copy?
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Ham
Yeah WordWolf.. I remember that too. the "invitation" was extended to ANY standing PFAL grad.
But I never knew anyone who even dared to ask..
didn't want to hurt Moggy's feelings ya know..
I'd send you a copy OM.. but I threw mine out about five years ago.
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Ham
Widespread misuse and abuse?
What happened? Did somebody send a copy to the IRS or something?
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oldiesman
I guess I should have DEMANDED to see it, but being only 20 years old, wasn't as near as obnoxious as I am today... :)
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oldiesman
Actually knowing me, it probably caused me to fork over less mooolah.
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Ham
Here is a link to the United Presbyterian Church's finances last year- and this is TYPICAL of religious organizations. Thirty-three pages, independantly audited.. and "available"- to someone who is NOT EVEN A MEMBER of their church (me).
PDF file, if you really want to see it..
They don't seem to be afraid that anyone out there will missuse or abuse the information.
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potato
I'm finding it's very typical for non-profits to make their financial information available. obviously twi has reasons to hide what happens to the money. as long as no one knows, no one can question.
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Belle
Google - Church Financial Statements and you'll see that just about every church in the USA and Canada is represented on there - either their local church financial statements are public or the smaller ones are included in the "Organizational Parent" church, or there's an announcement about when the congregation can come by to look at the books and audits.
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Tom Strange
WOW... they called you "Oldiesman" even way back then??? ...and you were only 20???
Obviously you were a head of your time!
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waysider
Hmmmmm?
Was that"ahead of your time" or " a 'head' of your time"?
Well, it WAS the dawning of the age of Aquarius, dontcha know!
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GT
It cannot mean that TWI gave this much money each year, nor did anyone else listed there. Their 2005 report states they received 10.2 million in donations, yet there are 3 companies listed as giving between 5 and 9.9 million. If those three companies only gave 5 million each during the year, then total donations would be over 15 million. The numbers don't add up.
The report does say it lists everyone who gave at least $100 during the year, so TWI would have had to given at least $100 for that year. But the number listed for their giving between $100,000 and $500,000 is cumulative over the years. Even so, it's a big number.
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penguin
ok Here's my question...if TWI was paying tuition for students, Wouldn't it be listed as tuition payments and not actually a donation?
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potato
tuition payments aren't listed at all. this is definitely a donation, and donations often come with strings attached.
since twi doesn't disclose financial things to anyone, the only way to find out is to ask the University, and I don't know yet how much they can reveal. whatever I find out, I'll post here.
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Twinky
(Spitting tacks and steam coming out of my ears)
Shouldn't be surprised at this really.
But I managed to get myself a degree and a fledgling career which was stomped on quite severely. If I dared to question anything (to do with what was taught, ask doctrinal questions, etc), what I got was, that I was thinking carnally and exalting myself against the knowledge of God blah blah (not that I was using my God-given brain to think things through!!). (It always seemed weird to me that so many obviously intelligent people were doing such menial and boring jobs in TWI and not fully utilizing their skills unless they were in say Way Builders - but that's thinking carnally...)
Now they are paying for their kids to be trained at Uni level which should encourage them to think things through and develop their carnal thinking??!
Yes they said anyone could look at finances. Once I did wander into the Finance Office and was met smilingly. I was shown around but not shown anything of substance, ie, financial dealings. And throughout my time in rez there was this unspoken thought that it was "bad form" to ask (that would be, if we'd had the time).
I went to a local church recently. They were setting their budget for the year. First was their need for people, to look after burgeoning children and YP groupsl. Then there on big screens for all to see was a note of income and expenditure for the last two years. Also their plans for the next couple of years and where and how the money will be spent. A finance pack with more detail was handed out to all after the meeting, regular attenders getting their named packs, but unnamed packs handed out to anyone who asked. Accompanied by an excellent teaching from 2 Chron about building the temple - laying by stocks, supplies - we are God's dwelling place now. Building and outreach to the local community. Chatted with a member of the finance committee afterwards and he pointed out the treasurer and suggested I also speak with him if I had any questions.
To a total stranger they explain all this.
Yet as a "member" (?) of TWI and one who tithed, such stuff was never offered and it would be carnal to ask.
Good on the kids for getting an education out of TWI, nice for them, God bless 'em.
Bad on TWI for this further example of hypocrisy.
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potato
ok everybody, I got the dirt on what exactly was donated, from UT:
"In 2002, The Way International made an in-kind gift of an acoustic band shell for UT's Doermann Theatre. (Gifts-in-kind are donated goods, rather than monetary contributions.) The one-time gift, valued at approximately $100,000, also qualified the organization for recognition as a "Partner" in the University's cumulative giving society."
so, it was a tax write-off and probably a PR move with the school, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn there was some wheel greasing, too.
so, our ABS only indirectly went to UT. still makes me wonder... why?
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Belle
Sounds kind of like the way they donated all the ROA stuff to the city and other organizations after it was cancelled.
Thanks a bunch, Potato!
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potato
I never knew that... bet that greased a lot of wheels... end result is money was brought in from all over the world to make it easier for a small group of people to get along with their neighbors, even though they're wackos. no benefit to the rest of the organization's followers that I can see.
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railroader II
Potato, thank you...
Now I have a question for you and Belle or one of the others that understands accounting better than I do.
How can that be used as a tax write-off when TWI is " supposed " to be a tax exempt organization according to IRS code and I wonder what IRS would really have to say about this one???
Thanks people.......
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potato
good point... they got their tax exempt status back after losing it for getting involved in politics. I don't know what monies are exempt, and I don't know what concessions Ohio makes, so I don't know if they would have got any benefit from the donation in that regard.
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Twinky
Acts 5:32 Neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had all things common
:34 For as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that wer sold
:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet...
Clearly doesn't apply to "acoustic band shells" (not "lands or houses") but neither was it their own.
Wouldn't it have been more appropriate to sell it and recover the ABS spent on acquiring it, and use that for "moving the Word"?
What happened with the airplane when that was disposed of? Was it sold or given away? What happens with other items that are surplus to requirements? Emporia campus and all that was in it was (rightly) sold, not given away.
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GT
The only taxes TWI is subject to is revenue from their bookstore and employer payroll taxes.
Giving money to U of T would be of no use to them as a tax write off. There is no tax to write off.
BTW: This topic made the front page of GreaseSpot.
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