Might I suggest, What the Hey, that VPW got this idea kinda scewed? Man's basic spiritual problem is sin, not the "accuracy and intergrity of God's Word."
The statement VPW made in PFAL that you quoted, was a "hook," one of many that baited people into believing that VPW had all the answers.
The whole Bible is about the problem of sin, and God's answer to it, Jesus Christ.
ex10.......thanks for pointing this out. Ya know, that statement about "man's basic spiritual problem is the integrity and accuracy of The Word"....never set right with me. Even though I'd heard it hundreds of times, I never really accepted vpw's answer. The premise was off.
The carnal man's basic dilemma is one of separation and enmity towards God.....a void and spiritual wholeness that Jesus Christ fulfilled via God's plan of salvation and redemption.
Don't care to delve into all of it....else this might as well be in the doctrinal forum.
Thanks Ex10, Hamm, SkyRider, and Tom – for returning our discussion to the previously scheduled program of the importance of character and of the importance of Bible practice compared to just Bible knowledge. SkyRider mentioning the doctrinal forum – got me thinking how doctrine influences practice.
Now I'm thinking about how even at the beginning of PFAL he was "softening up" a strict interpretation of the ten commandments. He goes through the mock survey of asking people what's the greatest sin a person can commit. Then refers to Jesus' answer to the question what is the greatest commandment, Jesus saying to love God is the first and greatest, the second is like it – love your neighbor as yourself. Then VPW says by sheer logic the greatest sin a man can commit is to break the greatest commandment – to love something more than God. Now I'll give him this -he does throw in if you love God and your neighbor you won't go around breaking the ten commandments. But he leaves an open-ended thought by saying if you love God and your neighbor you can do as you full well please.
What would you label the sin of breaking the first and greatest commandment? I'm thinking "idolatry." Where does it say in the Bible that idolatry is the greatest sin to commit? Why does I Corinthians 5:11 mention believers should not allow in the church the sinful behavior of the sexually immoral or greedy, or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler as well as an idolater? I don't know where I'm going with this – other than it hits me as wrong to play games with a moral scale of values. I'm not trying to minimize the sin of idolatry – but I'm trying to understand what Jesus meant by saying the Law revolved around loving God and neighbor.
Interesting to think about - how you would nail someone on committing idolatry? It's all in the mind. I know one of the commandments does specify not to make a graven image of God. There's Old Testament accounts of physical idols being destroyed. But the very first commandment says not to have any other gods before Him. I don't know how my not loving God with all my heart could hurt Him – but I think it does in some way. I most certainly know if I don't love my neighbor – it will issue in some form of harm to him - even if all it amounted to was harboring ill will or not having his best interest in mind if I should negotiate with him. Be it envying his stuff, stealing his stuff, lusting after his wife, committing adultery with his wife [just think of the harm to a lot of people – my wife and kids, my neighbor's family, etc.]. I could go on – but what I'm getting at is maybe the ten commandments and Jesus' summation of them teach about love from both a positive [Jesus' summation] and negative angle [the ten commandments]. Jesus said "this is what love is" and Moses said "this is what love is not." And just in case some people didn't realize it all starts in the mind - Jesus did talk about holding murderous/hateful thoughts towards someone or having lustful thoughts toward a woman.
To blur or weaken a literal interpretation of the ten commandments is to blur or weaken the meaning of love. To say "as long as you love God and neighbor you can do whatever you want" is to remove one eye. I'd lose the ability of depth perception. I'm unable to gauge how close or far I was to loving God or neighbor without those reference points. Am I having lustful thoughts about my neighbor's wife? I'd say I'm not holding to the two great commandments – loving God or neighbor…Well – it's a different kind of "loving" I'm thinking of - a sexual "loving"– but bottom line – I'm sinning.
T-bone, this is really easy, after reading what you wrote. :) Our worship of God is evidenced in our love for our neighbor, by our treatment of those whom God also loves. The bottom line of my life as a living sacrifice to Him, is carried out in my treatment of others. I John 2:10 comes to mind: "Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble."
We are "called" to be in relationship with God as our Father, Creator, and Jesus as our Lord and Saviour. And then we live out our "calling" in our dealings with others. All these things imply relationships built on light, truth, and love.
Our treatment of others, especially those close to us, is a reflection of our worship of God. This is the essence of the teachings of Jesus. And then the church epistles specifically instruct us on how to do that in day to day life. The bottom line is, I have to allow Jesus Christ to transform me, from the inside out, so that my life will bring honor and glory to him. That's what God views as an acceptable sacrifice. All of our lives should be the evidence in the real world, that God exists and came to life, entered our world, in Jesus Christ, who is the word made flesh.
One we are "saved," we pass from death unto eternal life, and now belong to Jesus Christ. Our life is not our own. (Seems I've heard that once or twice, even in the cult.) But part 2 of the plan God has for our lives, is not just that we are "born again," so we can do whatever we want. He wants us to be changed into his living image, alive and real for others to be able to see, hear, and touch. The whole Bible indicates to me that God and Jesus both are very concerned about our "character."
Sinning against our brothers is not part of the plan. God tells us specifically what to do when that happens in I John, as well as other places in the Bible. Seems VP and company liked to twist the meaning of "sin." Remember the whole "in fellowship, out of fellowship" baloney? VP twisted that for his own wicked ends, ie to justify his horrible sin against others. The old "hey, if I don't think it's sin, it's not" teaching. And it's wicked step sister, "if I don't 'break fellowship' it ain't sin." That's got to be the biggest bunch of garbage, and some of the most damaging of VP's spin on the Bible.
My oh my, I'm feeling preachy today. But I only quoted one Bible verse, so maybe we won't get banished to the dungeon.
Man's basic spiritual problem...haven't thought about that in years.
"The Word" either has integrity or it doesn't, what difference does it make what we think about it?
Man's basic spiritual problem isn't cramming one's head full of arcane knowledge and hair-splitting about Greek words, it's how one acts, what one does.
...I can't speak for you, but it's extremely difficult for me to believe Christianity is in a pickle and VPW's character as a Christian is invalid because he failed to properly cite his sources...
It’s very easy to understand how TWI is in a pickle – its founder was a real “character” who was pickled half the time. Among one of the many sources he “failed” to cite was the distillery where he bought his Drambui.
Is NJ Refuge a place? Kind of like a retreat? Or one of those wildlife parks?
That is my understanding also, Oak. I'm from Nordern Noo Joisey. But perhaps our 'refugee' is from Southern Jersey (below 195), where it is more or less, 'Deliverance' country.
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ex10.......thanks for pointing this out. Ya know, that statement about "man's basic spiritual problem is the integrity and accuracy of The Word"....never set right with me. Even though I'd heard it hundreds of times, I never really accepted vpw's answer. The premise was off.
The carnal man's basic dilemma is one of separation and enmity towards God.....a void and spiritual wholeness that Jesus Christ fulfilled via God's plan of salvation and redemption.
Don't care to delve into all of it....else this might as well be in the doctrinal forum.
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T-Bone
Thanks Ex10, Hamm, SkyRider, and Tom – for returning our discussion to the previously scheduled program of the importance of character and of the importance of Bible practice compared to just Bible knowledge. SkyRider mentioning the doctrinal forum – got me thinking how doctrine influences practice.
Now I'm thinking about how even at the beginning of PFAL he was "softening up" a strict interpretation of the ten commandments. He goes through the mock survey of asking people what's the greatest sin a person can commit. Then refers to Jesus' answer to the question what is the greatest commandment, Jesus saying to love God is the first and greatest, the second is like it – love your neighbor as yourself. Then VPW says by sheer logic the greatest sin a man can commit is to break the greatest commandment – to love something more than God. Now I'll give him this -he does throw in if you love God and your neighbor you won't go around breaking the ten commandments. But he leaves an open-ended thought by saying if you love God and your neighbor you can do as you full well please.
What would you label the sin of breaking the first and greatest commandment? I'm thinking "idolatry." Where does it say in the Bible that idolatry is the greatest sin to commit? Why does I Corinthians 5:11 mention believers should not allow in the church the sinful behavior of the sexually immoral or greedy, or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler as well as an idolater? I don't know where I'm going with this – other than it hits me as wrong to play games with a moral scale of values. I'm not trying to minimize the sin of idolatry – but I'm trying to understand what Jesus meant by saying the Law revolved around loving God and neighbor.
Interesting to think about - how you would nail someone on committing idolatry? It's all in the mind. I know one of the commandments does specify not to make a graven image of God. There's Old Testament accounts of physical idols being destroyed. But the very first commandment says not to have any other gods before Him. I don't know how my not loving God with all my heart could hurt Him – but I think it does in some way. I most certainly know if I don't love my neighbor – it will issue in some form of harm to him - even if all it amounted to was harboring ill will or not having his best interest in mind if I should negotiate with him. Be it envying his stuff, stealing his stuff, lusting after his wife, committing adultery with his wife [just think of the harm to a lot of people – my wife and kids, my neighbor's family, etc.]. I could go on – but what I'm getting at is maybe the ten commandments and Jesus' summation of them teach about love from both a positive [Jesus' summation] and negative angle [the ten commandments]. Jesus said "this is what love is" and Moses said "this is what love is not." And just in case some people didn't realize it all starts in the mind - Jesus did talk about holding murderous/hateful thoughts towards someone or having lustful thoughts toward a woman.
To blur or weaken a literal interpretation of the ten commandments is to blur or weaken the meaning of love. To say "as long as you love God and neighbor you can do whatever you want" is to remove one eye. I'd lose the ability of depth perception. I'm unable to gauge how close or far I was to loving God or neighbor without those reference points. Am I having lustful thoughts about my neighbor's wife? I'd say I'm not holding to the two great commandments – loving God or neighbor…Well – it's a different kind of "loving" I'm thinking of - a sexual "loving"– but bottom line – I'm sinning.
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ex10
T-bone, this is really easy, after reading what you wrote. :) Our worship of God is evidenced in our love for our neighbor, by our treatment of those whom God also loves. The bottom line of my life as a living sacrifice to Him, is carried out in my treatment of others. I John 2:10 comes to mind: "Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble."
We are "called" to be in relationship with God as our Father, Creator, and Jesus as our Lord and Saviour. And then we live out our "calling" in our dealings with others. All these things imply relationships built on light, truth, and love.
Our treatment of others, especially those close to us, is a reflection of our worship of God. This is the essence of the teachings of Jesus. And then the church epistles specifically instruct us on how to do that in day to day life. The bottom line is, I have to allow Jesus Christ to transform me, from the inside out, so that my life will bring honor and glory to him. That's what God views as an acceptable sacrifice. All of our lives should be the evidence in the real world, that God exists and came to life, entered our world, in Jesus Christ, who is the word made flesh.
One we are "saved," we pass from death unto eternal life, and now belong to Jesus Christ. Our life is not our own. (Seems I've heard that once or twice, even in the cult.) But part 2 of the plan God has for our lives, is not just that we are "born again," so we can do whatever we want. He wants us to be changed into his living image, alive and real for others to be able to see, hear, and touch. The whole Bible indicates to me that God and Jesus both are very concerned about our "character."
Sinning against our brothers is not part of the plan. God tells us specifically what to do when that happens in I John, as well as other places in the Bible. Seems VP and company liked to twist the meaning of "sin." Remember the whole "in fellowship, out of fellowship" baloney? VP twisted that for his own wicked ends, ie to justify his horrible sin against others. The old "hey, if I don't think it's sin, it's not" teaching. And it's wicked step sister, "if I don't 'break fellowship' it ain't sin." That's got to be the biggest bunch of garbage, and some of the most damaging of VP's spin on the Bible.
My oh my, I'm feeling preachy today. But I only quoted one Bible verse, so maybe we won't get banished to the dungeon.
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Oakspear
Man's basic spiritual problem...haven't thought about that in years.
"The Word" either has integrity or it doesn't, what difference does it make what we think about it?
Man's basic spiritual problem isn't cramming one's head full of arcane knowledge and hair-splitting about Greek words, it's how one acts, what one does.
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T-Bone
It’s very easy to understand how TWI is in a pickle – its founder was a real “character” who was pickled half the time. Among one of the many sources he “failed” to cite was the distillery where he bought his Drambui.
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Ham
The university I go to, they require engineering majors to take a class (at least one) that specifically deals with ETHICS.
Even the "unbeliever" knows WHO you are is as if not more important than WHAT you know..
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NJ Refuge
Hey Yuz guys. I dont knwo about you but I am tired of followin men. I want to get to know Jesus Christ. He still is Lord.
I'm tired of taking men as my Lord period.
Hope the Lord is with yuz guys
Refuge
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Oakspear
I thought the accepted spelling was "youse"
Is NJ Refuge a place? Kind of like a retreat? Or one of those wildlife parks?
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Sushi
That is my understanding also, Oak. I'm from Nordern Noo Joisey. But perhaps our 'refugee' is from Southern Jersey (below 195), where it is more or less, 'Deliverance' country.
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Tom Strange
...and isn't there a goat-man running around there somewhere in the swamps of Jersey?
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