I'm so sorry! That group is not The Way International. They (the Belize BRC folks) are an "offshoot" group who uses the original teachings of Victor Paul Wierwille, the founder of TWI, but they are in no way affiliated with them. It sounds like the group running PFAL is also an offshoot since TWI does not use the PFAL class anymore.
The links that cman has provided will give you a lot of information on what folks here do know and have experienced with the group.
Maybe getting kicked out of one of the groups is a good thing for you and your daughter. :) Who wants to be part of a group that jumps through hoops to break the law (avoid copyright infringement) and controls what their members do?
I recommend reading Steve Hassan's book: Releasing The Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves
Those books will help you with the best way to communicate and keep the bond between you and your daughter. Of course, we're always here to help in any way we can.
May I offer you coffee and a danish to enjoy while you look around?
You didn't say how old your daughter is... (My answer if she is 17 might be quite different if she is 22).
But basically, your best option is to learn as much about what her Ohio group is, and teaches, and then to read through the books Belle recommended, so as to have informed conversations with your daughter. And then be calm, and patient, and POSITIVE with her.
My experience is that people have to see the corruption and error for themselves before they can "wake up" to what they've gotten involved with... some outsider (even Mom) trying to tell them they are in a bad group usually falls on deaf ears. People will not see and hear what they don't want to see and hear. And if you just push and push to try to get her to see what you see, you will only alienate her and make it harder for her to come back to you and admit you were right and she was wrong.
Bottom line -- don't push her away with your concern and fervent desire to get her out of the group. Keep the lines of communication open. No judgement. Just positive advice. She'll come around!!
I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who posted a reply. Im freaking out a little bit at the moment while at the same time trying to remain calm, its sort of working, but not really. I just feel a bit impotent at the moment. She's 18, so legally my hands are tied. She will be home this weekend. Ive talked with her father whose brining her down to me from the airport. We are going to present a united front, and just let her know we care, we're concerned, and see if we can get her to read from the sites Ive found. I will continue to research and read. From some responses, I'm wondering if I jumped too soon, im just really really confused.
I do have another question tho. She told me this morning that she was broke bla bla ba, and that she was going to have to take her abundent sharing and tithe and put it back in the bank so no checks would bounce. Also, she tells me she was sending her money to this Chris Geer or Greer guy. Who is he? Is that common? She said she stopped sending it to him because she wasn't comfortable doing so and is now sending is someplace in Tennessee. Just looking for direction here.
I am praying that you find a good resolution to this. One that will bring peace to your heart and one that keeps your daughter safe from wrong influences.
Please hang in there. God loves you and he loves your daughter and he doesn't want anything bad to happen to either of you.
point her to this website... she can learn all about "the man who taught the class" and what has happened since... appeal to her sense of fairness to look at both sides, perhaps have her take a look at The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse as well... and see for herself if anything she's run into with this "group" looks familiar...
I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who posted a reply. Im freaking out a little bit at the moment while at the same time trying to remain calm, its sort of working, but not really. I just feel a bit impotent at the moment. She's 18, so legally my hands are tied. She will be home this weekend. Ive talked with her father whose brining her down to me from the airport. We are going to present a united front, and just let her know we care, we're concerned, and see if we can get her to read from the sites Ive found. I will continue to research and read. From some responses, I'm wondering if I jumped too soon, im just really really confused.
I do have another question tho. She told me this morning that she was broke bla bla ba, and that she was going to have to take her abundent sharing and tithe and put it back in the bank so no checks would bounce. Also, she tells me she was sending her money to this Chris Geer or Greer guy. Who is he? Is that common? She said she stopped sending it to him because she wasn't comfortable doing so and is now sending is someplace in Tennessee. Just looking for direction here.
I don't send them money, she was sending her money to that guy, but is now sending it someplace else. Just another trigger for me to go OH NO. Continuing to freak out. My mom has her prayer group praying that I'll find the words to help her. I'm praying.
If it makes you feel any better, it doesn't sound to me like she's in too deep, yet... if she's willing to get information from different groups against her instructions, and if she's willing to NOT send in abundant sharing in order to make sure her bank isn't overdrawn... that means she is still thinking independently. She may really want to please the leaders of her group, but her common sense is still over-riding their extremism. Always a good thing!
Just how long was she affiliated with Geer's group?
The "girl's house" in Chicago is part of that group?
How long has she been in Chicago? Does she have a full-time job there? Or is her only reason for moving to be a part of this group home?
All of these answers can help to indicate where her head is at...
Wendy, she sounds like she's a bright young lady, especially since she has recognized that she needs to take care of her own needs before she sends any money anywhere - AND since she quit giving money to one aspect of her involvement because of her own concerns.
It sounds, also, like you and your husband are planning to handle things very responsibly. There IS a fine line between being too pushy and showing that you care. The unfortunate thing about that is that it's varies with each individual. Showing her that you are concerned about the group she's getting involved with is wonderful. Tell her that you've looked them up and done some research on the groups because you want to make sure that she's entrusting her "spiritual growth" with a trustworthy and integrity-minded organization.
Ask more questions than you do "telling" her what you think. Find out what she feels she's getting from these groups that she wasn't getting from her church. Ask her what she likes about the groups. Ask her what she doesn't like about the groups.
This is a website that looks into detail at what PFAL teaches and compares it with what the Bible really says versus what the class says the Bible says: PFAL Review / Jerry Barrax. Jerry started out as a staunch defender of PFAL and, through his honest, objective discussions and debates with others, came to the conclusion that most of what is taught is inaccurate..... which is amazing considering how many offshoots still use those teachings as the foundational platform for their organization.... and the fact that they pride themselves on accurate Biblical research.
As, WordWolf said, please feel free to PM me or anyone else you would like for more information or help.
(((((Wendy))))) (those are hugs) You are a good Mama! I was raised Southern Baptist and got involved with TWI when I was in my early 20's. My parents had considered paying for an intervention with Steve Hassan to try to save me from TWI. In many ways I wish they had, but I honestly can't say how effective it would have been given my pure/true devotion (and foolish pride). I do have a few friends who's children got involved with high demand religious groups similar to TWI and these offshoots. They organized interventions (not kidnapping or deprogramming) and they were very successful in getting their children back.
Bottom line -- don't push her away with your concern and fervent desire to get her out of the group. Keep the lines of communication open. No judgement. Just positive advice. She'll come around!!
Excellent advice, Highway. One of the reasons I stuck to twi so strongly for so long was that my mom and aunt were both trying so hard to get me out and as a 21 year old adult, I resented their attempt to manipulate me.
It is easier for me to listen when concern is voiced in a loving, non controlling way from family and friends.
My aunt passed away this week and I never got to tell her she was right about twi.
Hopefully, your daughter will learn some Bible and move on to a healthier group, Wendy.
First the good news: Their approach is typically slow, methodical and initially harmless.
Now the bad news: Their approach is typically slow, methodical and initially harmless.
Sorry. Just trying to inject a bit of humor into the situation.
There are lots of horror stories associated with TWI.
There are also lots of stories of people who escaped the grasp of TWI.
( Though many were not unscathed.)
Show her your concerns are about her safety and well being and not about whether your spiritual doctrine agrees with this new doctrine she has found.
You sound like a parent who really cares. That's a powerful ingredient to throw into the mix. Big changes usually evolve slowly and don't happen overnight so be patient and supportive.
Wendy, I live in the suburbs of Chicago and am involved with one offshoot and know some of the others. If you e-mail me I can probably talk to you about the people she's involved with as I may know them personally.
Recommended Posts
cman
welcome Wendy
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=6894
Edited by cmanLink to comment
Share on other sites
cman
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...ic=4397&hl=
http://www.livingtreeacademy.org/
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
or is this a trick deal from twi or something
can this be verifyed as an actual concern?
not many use this term-believer
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Wendy,
I'm so sorry! That group is not The Way International. They (the Belize BRC folks) are an "offshoot" group who uses the original teachings of Victor Paul Wierwille, the founder of TWI, but they are in no way affiliated with them. It sounds like the group running PFAL is also an offshoot since TWI does not use the PFAL class anymore.
The links that cman has provided will give you a lot of information on what folks here do know and have experienced with the group.
Maybe getting kicked out of one of the groups is a good thing for you and your daughter. :) Who wants to be part of a group that jumps through hoops to break the law (avoid copyright infringement) and controls what their members do?
I recommend reading Steve Hassan's book: Releasing The Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves
In the "Recommended Reading" booth here at the cafe his book: "Combatting Cult Mind Control: The #1 Best-selling Guide to Protection, Rescue, and Recovery from Destructive Cults " is recommended. I haven't read that one, but I suspect it's as good and helpful as the other one I recommended.
Those books will help you with the best way to communicate and keep the bond between you and your daughter. Of course, we're always here to help in any way we can.
May I offer you coffee and a danish to enjoy while you look around?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
cool post Belle
and Wendy i do hope you get help
twi are tricky little punks, so that's why i questioned it
no offense intended
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheHighWay
Wendy...
You didn't say how old your daughter is... (My answer if she is 17 might be quite different if she is 22).
But basically, your best option is to learn as much about what her Ohio group is, and teaches, and then to read through the books Belle recommended, so as to have informed conversations with your daughter. And then be calm, and patient, and POSITIVE with her.
My experience is that people have to see the corruption and error for themselves before they can "wake up" to what they've gotten involved with... some outsider (even Mom) trying to tell them they are in a bad group usually falls on deaf ears. People will not see and hear what they don't want to see and hear. And if you just push and push to try to get her to see what you see, you will only alienate her and make it harder for her to come back to you and admit you were right and she was wrong.
Bottom line -- don't push her away with your concern and fervent desire to get her out of the group. Keep the lines of communication open. No judgement. Just positive advice. She'll come around!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Wendy
I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who posted a reply. Im freaking out a little bit at the moment while at the same time trying to remain calm, its sort of working, but not really. I just feel a bit impotent at the moment. She's 18, so legally my hands are tied. She will be home this weekend. Ive talked with her father whose brining her down to me from the airport. We are going to present a united front, and just let her know we care, we're concerned, and see if we can get her to read from the sites Ive found. I will continue to research and read. From some responses, I'm wondering if I jumped too soon, im just really really confused.
I do have another question tho. She told me this morning that she was broke bla bla ba, and that she was going to have to take her abundent sharing and tithe and put it back in the bank so no checks would bounce. Also, she tells me she was sending her money to this Chris Geer or Greer guy. Who is he? Is that common? She said she stopped sending it to him because she wasn't comfortable doing so and is now sending is someplace in Tennessee. Just looking for direction here.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
don't send them money!!!!!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Out There
Wendy:
I am praying that you find a good resolution to this. One that will bring peace to your heart and one that keeps your daughter safe from wrong influences.
Please hang in there. God loves you and he loves your daughter and he doesn't want anything bad to happen to either of you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
point her to this website... she can learn all about "the man who taught the class" and what has happened since... appeal to her sense of fairness to look at both sides, perhaps have her take a look at The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse as well... and see for herself if anything she's run into with this "group" looks familiar...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Wendy
I don't send them money, she was sending her money to that guy, but is now sending it someplace else. Just another trigger for me to go OH NO. Continuing to freak out. My mom has her prayer group praying that I'll find the words to help her. I'm praying.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
logic-
if you don't have abundant sharing or tithe to give
and you have been giving-
IT AIN'T WORKING!!!!!!!!!!
sorry to yell
but perhaps she can see something that simple
those guys should get a real job and quit taking others money and giving out nothing
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...spiritual+abuse
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...spiritual+abuse
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
Wendy The Belizean BRC group is located in Tennessee she may have purchased some materials from their bookstore.
HERE
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
A) You did not "jump too soon."
Although there's a few people who still insist that their experiences in twi were the greatest
things since sliced bread, nearly everybody who was ever exposed to it is happy to be
out.
B) Yes, the Belizean BRC people are an offshoot who is using the original materials
from vpw.
Here's a quick thumbnail of the life of vpw.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=218978
Specifically, they're using his taped pfal class, now converted to DVDs.
C) Whether or not she's connected with the current twi,
or some nostalgic offshoot that still adores vpw,
she's NOT involved in something psychologically healthy,
ESPECIALLY if it's still lauding vpw to the skies.
(The man plagiarized while claiming to produce books based on a connection with God,
drugged and raped women, set up a structure to cover his tracks when he
drugged and raped women, often showed a toxic personality when not in public,
chainsmoked and drank alcohol DAILY while complaining youths didn't know how to
practice self-control, and sometimes taught harmful errors.
He was well below the minimum standard for ANY kind of leader, let alone
one purported to represent God.)
D) Both twi and some groups that spun off from twi use leaders that were trained
to command and bark orders and not tolerate free thinking and disagreement.
Both twi and some offshoots see "crushing dissent" and "humiliating dissenters"
as perfectly acceptable practices, especially once a veneer of godliness has been
added to it. So, she won't be allowed to think, and when she gets sick and tired
of being sick and tired, and tries to leave, they'll try to take her down emotionally
and/or psychologically. In twi, it was common to try to convince people that they
or their loved ones would drop dead if they left-
they'd be a "greasespot by midnight".
So, anticipate this. The practices are predictable, ungodly, and tiresome.
But then, this hardly qualifies as news to many people.
Feel free to send pm's to me or anyone else you think is making sense here.
(The worst they can do is say "No, I don't want to talk to you.")
Feel free to make up your own mind. If you don't think I or anyone else makes
sense, hey, your conclusions. Feel free to reassess your conclusions if later events
seem to support our claims.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/conten...ategory/120/51/
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/conten...ogsection/5/33/
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...l=actual+errors
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
My Guess is that they are headed to the Christian Family Fellowship Youth Advance in Tipp City Ohio You can read about CFF
Here
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
By definition,
that means you have no "abundance".
According to twi's pamphlet "Christians Should be Prosperous"
(which was often assigned to read as homework when beginning pfal),
you're supposed to be prospering if you're giving them money.
If you're giving them money and you are not prospering, then their doctrine does not work.
As the mathematicians would write that,
~Q -> ~P.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheHighWay
If it makes you feel any better, it doesn't sound to me like she's in too deep, yet... if she's willing to get information from different groups against her instructions, and if she's willing to NOT send in abundant sharing in order to make sure her bank isn't overdrawn... that means she is still thinking independently. She may really want to please the leaders of her group, but her common sense is still over-riding their extremism. Always a good thing!
Just how long was she affiliated with Geer's group?
The "girl's house" in Chicago is part of that group?
How long has she been in Chicago? Does she have a full-time job there? Or is her only reason for moving to be a part of this group home?
All of these answers can help to indicate where her head is at...
Edited by TheHighWayLink to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Wendy, she sounds like she's a bright young lady, especially since she has recognized that she needs to take care of her own needs before she sends any money anywhere - AND since she quit giving money to one aspect of her involvement because of her own concerns.
It sounds, also, like you and your husband are planning to handle things very responsibly. There IS a fine line between being too pushy and showing that you care. The unfortunate thing about that is that it's varies with each individual. Showing her that you are concerned about the group she's getting involved with is wonderful. Tell her that you've looked them up and done some research on the groups because you want to make sure that she's entrusting her "spiritual growth" with a trustworthy and integrity-minded organization.
Ask more questions than you do "telling" her what you think. Find out what she feels she's getting from these groups that she wasn't getting from her church. Ask her what she likes about the groups. Ask her what she doesn't like about the groups.
This is a website that looks into detail at what PFAL teaches and compares it with what the Bible really says versus what the class says the Bible says: PFAL Review / Jerry Barrax. Jerry started out as a staunch defender of PFAL and, through his honest, objective discussions and debates with others, came to the conclusion that most of what is taught is inaccurate..... which is amazing considering how many offshoots still use those teachings as the foundational platform for their organization.... and the fact that they pride themselves on accurate Biblical research.
As, WordWolf said, please feel free to PM me or anyone else you would like for more information or help.
(((((Wendy))))) (those are hugs) You are a good Mama! I was raised Southern Baptist and got involved with TWI when I was in my early 20's. My parents had considered paying for an intervention with Steve Hassan to try to save me from TWI. In many ways I wish they had, but I honestly can't say how effective it would have been given my pure/true devotion (and foolish pride). I do have a few friends who's children got involved with high demand religious groups similar to TWI and these offshoots. They organized interventions (not kidnapping or deprogramming) and they were very successful in getting their children back.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waterbuffalo
Excellent advice, Highway. One of the reasons I stuck to twi so strongly for so long was that my mom and aunt were both trying so hard to get me out and as a 21 year old adult, I resented their attempt to manipulate me.
It is easier for me to listen when concern is voiced in a loving, non controlling way from family and friends.
My aunt passed away this week and I never got to tell her she was right about twi.
Hopefully, your daughter will learn some Bible and move on to a healthier group, Wendy.
You and your daughter are in my prayers.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Wendy
There is good news and bad news.
First the good news: Their approach is typically slow, methodical and initially harmless.
Now the bad news: Their approach is typically slow, methodical and initially harmless.
Sorry. Just trying to inject a bit of humor into the situation.
There are lots of horror stories associated with TWI.
There are also lots of stories of people who escaped the grasp of TWI.
( Though many were not unscathed.)
Show her your concerns are about her safety and well being and not about whether your spiritual doctrine agrees with this new doctrine she has found.
You sound like a parent who really cares. That's a powerful ingredient to throw into the mix. Big changes usually evolve slowly and don't happen overnight so be patient and supportive.
Just my opinion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TOMMYZ
Wendy, I live in the suburbs of Chicago and am involved with one offshoot and know some of the others. If you e-mail me I can probably talk to you about the people she's involved with as I may know them personally.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.