over and over, your husband calls you names then ignores you, then expects sex at bedtime. you don't want to, you hate him but you can't say no because a good wife never withholds sex and you've been programmed by years of verbal and emotional abuse, and a few punches, to do whatever your husband wants. to fulfill your wifely duty, you detach from reality and go numb to be able to bear his disgusting self imposed on you.
We all know the guy in the mask invading your life thru a window with a knife – then forcing themselves on you is rape.
But what other things are and are not rape in your opinion?
Two fifteen year-olds have consensual sex. They are both under age. Are they raping each other?
A fifteen-year-old sexually active girl and an 18-year-old boy date and have sex. They had sex when he was 17 – but now that he is 18 does it become rape?
If a person gets a person drunk with the intent to "have sex " is that rape or should the girl/guy not have drank so much?
If a person has sex with a person who is mentally challenged is it rape?
If someone is seeking help, say with a Doctor, a psychiatrist and he is attracted to her and has sex with her is it rape? If she started it does it change things?
Suppose a 60-year-old minister entices an 18-year-old with the taunt of you'd be blessing the man of God, or your body is your ministry. Manipulation. Unethical. Is that rape?
If they offer her a drink with a little something in it, then have sex with her is that rape? She would not have been willing without the drink.
What and where are the lines? What and who should be punished, criminally?
Is this just a casual discussion or did you have a particular purpose in mind when you started this thread?
Recently there was a young guy who had sex as a teen with an underage girl and he is going to jail.
But what if they were both underage?
Or what if they were both underage and a day later one was 18 -- does a birthday then make the sex act rape? It was sex yesterday and rape today.
If you get someone drunk to have sex with them and you know they didn't want it when they are sober -- is that just manipulation... or some form of an acceptable rape in society? I hear, well she did not have to drink -- and that is true.
So, what makes it rape? The act of sex when it is unwanted? But then two teens may consent and a birthday may make it legally rape.
Or is rape about intent? If I set you up to use you for sex is that a form of rape? Or is that simply someone too stupid to see they were being used.
Through the years we have discussed rape usually around TWI. Some think to be lied to and mislead and taken to bed is rape. Some think it is unfortunate.
I am curious where people see the lines. Are we harder on TWI people? Or are we easier?
Is rape more about what the person is thinking than what they are doing. Sex is a penis and vagina (mostly)
But is rape intent?
I intend to get sex from you so I will get you drunk.
I intend to get waht I want from you so I will lie.
I intend to get what I want so I will force you
When does it become rape in those cases where there is no mask and weapon.
When I was about 18 I got stoned on some great weed. I was with a guy I liked but had NO intention of having sex with him. This weed almost stopped my body from being able to move. I was saying "No" but I could not move.
He had sex with me.
Was that rape?
I think it was stupidity on my part.
But if he intended to "get me" and gave me something extra that day then I think it was rape...
That is a personal example.
But there are many examples...
The lines are not always clear.
let's add this one, too, while we're at it:
over and over, your husband calls you names then ignores you, then expects sex at bedtime. you don't want to, you hate him but you can't say no because a good wife never withholds sex and you've been programmed by years of verbal and emotional abuse, and a few punches, to do whatever your husband wants. to fulfill your wifely duty, you detach from reality and go numb to be able to bear his disgusting self imposed on you.
is it rape?
Yeah, that is what I mean.
I think the intend is terrible so does that make it rape...
On the age thing it could be helpful to look at acceptable ages of consent in other countries. I think these 17 year olds agreeing to sex might not even be a question other places.
Mentally disabled individuals need to be protected from the predators in society
Reality check --anyone in our society who is 15 or older, of sound mind, who has consensual sex-no matter the age of the other party hasn't been raped.
!4 years old is iffy judged by a case by case basis.
I would say 13 and under if the partner is 17 or older a case could be made for statutory rape
Other than that I define rape as any sex act that is forced on an unwilling and/or unsuspecting partner by the use of threat, physical intimidation, or drugs and alcohol provided for the purpose of making the other party more compliant no matter the previous nature of the relationship
What rape isn't is a person seeking to gain an advantage at work, competition, or lifestyle by providing sex for another person. Who are we kidding here-A contestant in a pageant who goes to a judges room at 2 in the AM is there for one reason and one reason only-- changing your mind after you have decided to bribe your way to the position you want by use of your body-- well sorry, you bought the bed, you made the bed, if you now don't want to lie in it you should have thought of that sooner.
The intent of the person forcing themselves on another is paramount in this I believe.
A wife claiming rape because she doesn't want to consent to sex with her husband doesn't sit well with me. Too much of that can cheapen genuine rape situations perhaps.
Little children being taken advantage of sexually is always rape in my opinion. A child can't begin to understand that world.
Some acts can't even be done unless there is some degree of consent I would also think. Yet a male can be raped even if he does become aroused because that is physical and not controlled by the mind necessarily.
Parents using rape to punish a boy they never agreed with their daughter dating when she willing gave herself over is rape from the parents I feel. Providing we are talking teenagers not children.
Date rape drugs where the girl is actually unconsciences and cannot consent or fight is rape.
Putting yourself in a situation where you know there is a chance of being forced sexually is liable on the one being taken advantage of to some degree.
Doing drugs and drinking in situations that are inappropriate places some liability on the one taken advantage of also.
I would imagine that most states have applicable laws. Such laws more than likely address many but not all possible scenarios. If I wanted to know what really constitutes rape, I'd start with:
Which state?
What are the ages of the individuals in the scenario(s).
What are the sex(es) of the individuals (it's probably fair to say that this is no longer exclusively a male committing an act (of violence, or whatever else) against a female).
What other factors are involved, for example:
capacity to grant consent (age and physical and/or mental/emotional disability and other things could be involved)
nature of the (if any) prior relationship of the individuals
specific communications that may or may not have taken place between the individuals.
--------
There's probably more factors, but each possible combination of factors should FIRST be analyzed to determine if any applicable law exists, and if none, what things could influence any potential ambiguities in the situation.
As for me, as a male, I know I have to respect all applicable boundaries, including but not necessarily limited to: consent, age, etc. and it's better to keep out of potential trouble than to push the limits of acceptible conduct in hopes not to get in trouble (or caught).
Other than that, it occurs to me that the reason for such an inquiry, in the mind/intent of the inquirer WILL significantly influence the structure of any discussion of the topic.
And other than helping any person, potential victim or perpetrator, to avoid a dangerous situation, I don't understand the need for such a discussion. There may be a need, but I don't see it.
But what other things are and are not rape in your opinion?
Two fifteen year-olds have consensual sex. They are both under age. Are they raping each other?
Legally, it depends on the state. Morally/ethically, I can't say that it is
A fifteen-year-old sexually active girl and an 18-year-old boy date and have sex. They had sex when he was 17 – but now that he is 18 does it become rape?
No, but legally, it depends.
If a person gets a person drunk with the intent to “have sex “ is that rape or should the girl/guy not have drank so much?
They should not have drunk so much, but that is basically irrelevant. If one of them says or indicates "No", and it is done anyway, yes, its rape.
If a person has sex with a person who is mentally challenged is it rape?
Unequiveably yes!
If someone is seeking help, say with a Doctor, a psychiatrist and he is attracted to her and has sex with her is it rape? If she started it does it change things?
Largely, yes, or at least it should be professionally inappropriate, casing the professional to lose his/her license. If the patient starts it, it doesn't matter.
Suppose a 60-year-old minister entices an 18-year-old with the taunt of you’d be blessing the man of God, or your body is your ministry. Manipulation. Unethical. Is that rape?
Yup.
If they offer her a drink with a little something in it, then have sex with her is that rape? She would not have been willing without the drink.
Yes.
What and where are the lines? What and who should be punished, criminally?
Basically the person who crossed the sexual line should be punished. How much is dependent upon the situation.
over and over, your husband calls you names then ignores you, then expects sex at bedtime. you don't want to, you hate him but you can't say no because a good wife never withholds sex and you've been programmed by years of verbal and emotional abuse, and a few punches, to do whatever your husband wants. to fulfill your wifely duty, you detach from reality and go numb to be able to bear his disgusting self imposed on you.
is it rape?
Regardless of who might feel uncomfortable with it being considered rape, it is rape. What? You think that just because the woman is now married, that she no longer has the right to determine whether she has sex or not? ... Don't think so.
But if you still live under the same roof and are still a wife-
I bet the courts will not see it as rape.
But if you talk to the husband and tell him you no longer want to do this and it is forced
Well, rape
There is the word force again.
What about the con man lover. The guy who loves the (say) woman and swindles her out of her funds. He lies to get her money, the same lies got her in bed. Is that ethically a rape or just a stupid woman. OR forget ehtically is it just a rape.
Garth
Two fifteen year-olds have consensual sex. They are both under age. Are they raping each other?
Legally, it depends on the state. Morally/ethically, I can't say that it is
Isn't it weird that in one state you can are a rapist and one you are not.
Makes me wonder what goes into the thought process of making the laws...
Is it a discussion like this? People sitting around disscussing ethics, what crosses the line, what is bad judgement or actual rape.
This is a very charged topic for me...not only because of my 'history', but also because of having raised a daughter who 'consensually' had sex with a man 7 years her senior and became pregnant, having been there with so many girls and women after being raped, having friends who have been caught in many of the exampled situations.
I will do my best to check my emotions at the door.
When I was 14 I had sex once with a 15yo boy from school. This was the first time I had 'consensual' sex. It was in the woods behind an apartment complex where he and I had met at my youth pastor's place for bible study...then left after opening prayer. I felt nothing. Had no clue that anything had happened. Never felt any penetration or anything. But I got pregnant. When my mother asked me if I had any "sticky stuff" on my legs or panties, I had no idea what she was talking about...she had to explain to me about semen. I truly had no clue about the actual physical reality of sex.
Was that rape? No. Was it consensual? I had no clue what I was consenting to, so how could it be consensual?
Until then, I did not understand that what my dad had done to me from age 4 to age 9 would be in any way similar to what someone I 'liked' or 'loved' would do to me.
Once I understood, I also understood all the other stuff...like being told that because I was so fat (ha! I can only wish that I weighed 140 lbs again!) the only boys that would have anything to do with me were the boys that knew fat girls were easy. What did easy mean to me before that time? I figured it meant that I'd kiss them and let them touch me. After that time, I understood...and for too many years felt that all I had to offer to a boy or a man was the use of my body.
So when I began offering that at the age of 15, was I then 'consenting'?
consent
1. To give assent, as to the proposal of another; agree. See Synonyms at assent.
2. Archaic To be of the same mind or opinion.
assent:
1. to agree or concur; subscribe to (often fol. by to): to assent to a statement.
2. to give in; yield; concede: Assenting to his demands, I did as I was told.
–noun
3. agreement, as to a proposal; concurrence.
4. acquiescence; compliance.
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law
Main Entry: 1as·sent
Pronunciation: &-'sent
Function: intransitive verb
: to agree to something esp. freely and with understanding : give one's assent
Synonyms: These verbs denote acceptance of and often belief in another's views, proposals, or actions. Assent implies agreement, especially as a result of deliberation: They readily assented to our suggestion.
Agree and accede are related in the sense that assent has been reached after discussion or persuasion, but accede implies that one person or group has yielded to the other: "It was not possible to agree to a proposal so extraordinary and unexpected" (William Robertson). "In an evil hour this proposal was acceded to" (Mary E. Herbert).
Acquiesce suggests passive assent because of inability or unwillingness to oppose: I acquiesced in their decision despite my misgivings.
Often laymen forget that consent does not immediately imply agreement, understanding, or willingness.
(Edited to add "not" before "immediately" in my last sentence.)
over and over, your husband calls you names then ignores you, then expects sex at bedtime. you don't want to, you hate him but you can't say no because a good wife never withholds sex and you've been programmed by years of verbal and emotional abuse, and a few punches, to do whatever your husband wants. to fulfill your wifely duty, you detach from reality and go numb to be able to bear his disgusting self imposed on you.
is it rape?
Very close to it, potato. The woman's conditioning that prevented her from refusing disqualifies the treatment as outright rape IMO; but if she had refused, who's to know whether it would not quickly have become true rape?
Definitely assault, even if "only" emotional assault.
FACT: forty years ago this world was a very different place. Girls and even boys were much more sexually naive for a much longer period of time--
But now---
Sorry
You'd be hard pressed to find a normal, as in not mentally handicapped, kid who didn't know what sex was--
In Alaska let us say you as a freshman girl in high school go to the junior prom with a 17 year old. You continue to date and be sexually active. IN your sophomore year you are 15 and your boyfriend is now a senior and turns 18. You continue to have sex. NOW under the law he is a rapist and can be prosecuted as such. For the rest of his life he will wear the sex offender label
YOU are 29 two of your co-workers are a father and daughter. She is 19 and you start to date with the fathers full consent. The relationship becomes sexual and talk of marriage ensues. Then one day you are led away in handcuffs--WHY?? because she is actually 16 and the father used false documents so she could work because they needed the income. You go to jail for the next 5 years as a child molester.
YOU are 21 sitting in a bar and this gorgeous girl comes up to you --you spend a great evening talking and that weekend you meet her for dinner. You meet again at the bar the following week and it leads to sex. Next thing you know you are in a squad car --shes 16 using her sisters ID--- You Child Molester You!
Hypothetical, I wish--these are actual men I have encountered. Decent guys who for the rest of their lives will not be able to find jobs and housing, who will be mistrusted by their neighbors because theyare Registered Sex Offenders.
IN all these situations there is a sex offender all right -- but imo it isn't the guy!
That's really sad, Templelady. I understand and agree that there needs to be a law to protect children, but those examples prove to me that the law needs to be revised.
Potato, according to what you wrote, and what Templelady posted about the law's definition of assent, I would consider the act between the husband and wife a rape.
Rape is one of the offences I believe should be punished by imprisonment for life at the very least.
If a person is imature, naieve, even at age 17, 18 this sometimes can be considered rape. In fact age might not matter in some case. Take for example many of young men that were raped by Catholic Priests...most of them were 16 and over...the media doesn't tell you this they want to use the word pedephilia to suggest that these preditors were after children...that was not the case. When a person has spiritual authority over another, and the victom doesn't know better, they lack the freedom of will in this situation.
Another thing that can be considerd rape is for example, I will do such and such to you or your family if you don't have sex with me...that is rape in my book.
Any adult who has sex with a child is guilty of rape.
OF course the classical forced rape is always Rape big time.
Sex with mentally disabled persons is rape too, when they don't have the faculty of reason that is necessary to know what is appropiate and what it not.
Isn't it weird that in one state you can [be]are a rapist and one you are not.
No, it is NOT weird. It's fundamental civics in America. IF the federal government (Congress) passed (a) law(s) on rape, it would be standardized. However, it's NOT a federal law. However, there are efforts, likely in every state, by state legislatures, to conform to model legislation on various issues/topics. That includes criminal laws. Many state lawmakers are members of groups such as NCSL or ALEC. That would be the National Conference of State Legislatures http://www.ncsl.org which offers a variety of services to help lawmakers tailor policies that will work for their states/constituents; and the American Legislative Exchange Council http://www.alec.org which says it advances the Jeffersonian principles of free markets, limited government, federalism and individual liberty among America's state legislators.
Makes me wonder what goes into the thought process of making the laws...
Is it a discussion like this? People sitting around disscussing ethics, what crosses the line, what is bad judgement or actual rape.
Most definitely NOT. A "reader's digest" summary of the process goes something like this:
A problem presents itself in society, which through perhaps a media outlet causes concern in at least a small group of individuals who either are lawmakers or who communicate with their lawmakers. Someone does research on related state laws and writes a piece of legislation for introduction to the formal lawmaking process. That someone could be an activist (concerned citizen), lobbyist, a lawmaker her/himself, or a staff person/group of the legislature. Or an idea might be subject to interest in other states, made known on a widespread basis to members of NCSL or ALEC.
Once a bill is introduced in at least one chamber of the state's lawmaking body, it is (if it is to be seriously considered) assigned to one or more committee for a public hearing. Notice is given publicly (check your state's legislature for specifics), then is presented for discussion and public input in the committee. Discussion entails a Q&A by members of the committee and testimony by experts and concerned citizens to consider what current law exists, how/why it is not addressing the problem, explanation of how the bill WILL address the situation, related ramifications as far as foreseeable (such as the cost to the government and the public), changes (fine tuning perhaps) to the bill are considered, votes taken in the committee and in the COW (committee of the whole), and if passed in one chamber (in all states except Nebraska, which is UNIcameral... having only one chamber of the state legislature) it is sent to the other chamber for a repeat of the process. When a bill passes both chambers (with the exact same wording) it is sent to the governor to sign, veto or just let it become law without the governor's signature. IF the two chambers modify the bill differently, the versions must be conformed (submitted again for a final vote by one or the other or both chambers) before sending it on to the governor.
If it becomes law (signed by governor, or no action taken by governor), citizens have, in most cases, a few months to consider whether to force a vote by registered voters on whether or not to accept the bill as passed and signed (referendum). Few bills (only the most controversial) are ever actually subject to a referendum vote.
------------
Bottom line is that lawmaking does NOT start with casual discussions that happen just for kicks. It entails FIRST recognition of a problem, then deliberation in a formal setting, on what the problem is and how to address it with changes to existing state statue and/or session law.
And rather than simply asking everyone in the state to ponder some nebulous concept, people with an interest in the issue work to get the attention of lawmakers -- concerned citizens, lobbyists, other lawmakers -- trying to convince enough people about the problem and proposed solution.
FACT: forty years ago this world was a very different place. Girls and even boys were much more sexually naive for a much longer period of time--
But now---
Sorry
You'd be hard pressed to find a normal, as in not mentally handicapped, kid who didn't know what sex was--
In Alaska let us say you as a freshman girl in high school go to the junior prom with a 17 year old. You continue to date and be sexually active. IN your sophomore year you are 15 and your boyfriend is now a senior and turns 18. You continue to have sex. NOW under the law he is a rapist and can be prosecuted as such. For the rest of his life he will wear the sex offender label
YOU are 29 two of your co-workers are a father and daughter. She is 19 and you start to date with the fathers full consent. The relationship becomes sexual and talk of marriage ensues. Then one day you are led away in handcuffs--WHY?? because she is actually 16 and the father used false documents so she could work because they needed the income. You go to jail for the next 5 years as a child molester.
YOU are 21 sitting in a bar and this gorgeous girl comes up to you --you spend a great evening talking and that weekend you meet her for dinner. You meet again at the bar the following week and it leads to sex. Next thing you know you are in a squad car --shes 16 using her sisters ID--- You Child Molester You!
Hypothetical, I wish--these are actual men I have encountered. Decent guys who for the rest of their lives will not be able to find jobs and housing, who will be mistrusted by their neighbors because theyare Registered Sex Offenders.
IN all these situations there is a sex offender all right -- but imo it isn't the guy!
Temple lady
I know what you mean, a-father-friend-of-mine had a teen daughter who allowed her female teen friend to spend the night. The next day, unbeknownst to him they cut school.
When the shcool called the father (my friend), he notified the mother of the teen who spent the night. That teen got so angry she said, "Well, her father touched me in the middle of the night."
The short story:
The father lost his job, lost his home, lost his daughter and had to get an atty to represent him in court. Fortunately, the girl had written a note to a school friend who said she was going to accuse the father to "get even," if that note had not surfaced he'd be in jail.
Also, he still has it on his record that he was up on charges. To have it wiped off his record he needs to pay some sort of cost, he does not have. The only job he could get was at a deli his friend owned -- money is tight and the recovery slow.
I think it really has to be looked at on a case by case basis.
For example:
With a 15 year old - What could be considered "consensual" for one girl could be considered "rape" for another girl, depending on the maturity level and circumstances.
I think it's impossible to make blanket decisions, but some situations are obviously rape whereas others are in a more "gray" area.
Thank you Rocky for the grammar lesson. I'm glad somebody took me seriously last week when I brought it up. If anybody gets his nose out of joint when Rocky, or some other knowledgeable person corrects your grammar, please remember it's not against you, but some of us need to improve, and a couple of us requested help, so please don't take it personally because that's not the way it is intended.
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potato
let's add this one, too, while we're at it:
over and over, your husband calls you names then ignores you, then expects sex at bedtime. you don't want to, you hate him but you can't say no because a good wife never withholds sex and you've been programmed by years of verbal and emotional abuse, and a few punches, to do whatever your husband wants. to fulfill your wifely duty, you detach from reality and go numb to be able to bear his disgusting self imposed on you.
is it rape?
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Rocky
Is this just a casual discussion or did you have a particular purpose in mind when you started this thread?
And what might that purpose be?
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Dot Matrix
I just want to know what people think rape is...
Casual I guess.
Recently there was a young guy who had sex as a teen with an underage girl and he is going to jail.
But what if they were both underage?
Or what if they were both underage and a day later one was 18 -- does a birthday then make the sex act rape? It was sex yesterday and rape today.
If you get someone drunk to have sex with them and you know they didn't want it when they are sober -- is that just manipulation... or some form of an acceptable rape in society? I hear, well she did not have to drink -- and that is true.
So, what makes it rape? The act of sex when it is unwanted? But then two teens may consent and a birthday may make it legally rape.
Or is rape about intent? If I set you up to use you for sex is that a form of rape? Or is that simply someone too stupid to see they were being used.
Through the years we have discussed rape usually around TWI. Some think to be lied to and mislead and taken to bed is rape. Some think it is unfortunate.
I am curious where people see the lines. Are we harder on TWI people? Or are we easier?
Is rape more about what the person is thinking than what they are doing. Sex is a penis and vagina (mostly)
But is rape intent?
I intend to get sex from you so I will get you drunk.
I intend to get waht I want from you so I will lie.
I intend to get what I want so I will force you
When does it become rape in those cases where there is no mask and weapon.
When I was about 18 I got stoned on some great weed. I was with a guy I liked but had NO intention of having sex with him. This weed almost stopped my body from being able to move. I was saying "No" but I could not move.
He had sex with me.
Was that rape?
I think it was stupidity on my part.
But if he intended to "get me" and gave me something extra that day then I think it was rape...
That is a personal example.
But there are many examples...
The lines are not always clear.
Yeah, that is what I mean.
I think the intend is terrible so does that make it rape...
I think it might.
But I am sure he doesn't think so...
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ChattyKathy
On the age thing it could be helpful to look at acceptable ages of consent in other countries. I think these 17 year olds agreeing to sex might not even be a question other places.
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templelady
Mentally disabled individuals need to be protected from the predators in society
Reality check --anyone in our society who is 15 or older, of sound mind, who has consensual sex-no matter the age of the other party hasn't been raped.
!4 years old is iffy judged by a case by case basis.
I would say 13 and under if the partner is 17 or older a case could be made for statutory rape
Other than that I define rape as any sex act that is forced on an unwilling and/or unsuspecting partner by the use of threat, physical intimidation, or drugs and alcohol provided for the purpose of making the other party more compliant no matter the previous nature of the relationship
What rape isn't is a person seeking to gain an advantage at work, competition, or lifestyle by providing sex for another person. Who are we kidding here-A contestant in a pageant who goes to a judges room at 2 in the AM is there for one reason and one reason only-- changing your mind after you have decided to bribe your way to the position you want by use of your body-- well sorry, you bought the bed, you made the bed, if you now don't want to lie in it you should have thought of that sooner.
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ChattyKathy
The intent of the person forcing themselves on another is paramount in this I believe.
A wife claiming rape because she doesn't want to consent to sex with her husband doesn't sit well with me. Too much of that can cheapen genuine rape situations perhaps.
Little children being taken advantage of sexually is always rape in my opinion. A child can't begin to understand that world.
Some acts can't even be done unless there is some degree of consent I would also think. Yet a male can be raped even if he does become aroused because that is physical and not controlled by the mind necessarily.
Parents using rape to punish a boy they never agreed with their daughter dating when she willing gave herself over is rape from the parents I feel. Providing we are talking teenagers not children.
Date rape drugs where the girl is actually unconsciences and cannot consent or fight is rape.
Putting yourself in a situation where you know there is a chance of being forced sexually is liable on the one being taken advantage of to some degree.
Doing drugs and drinking in situations that are inappropriate places some liability on the one taken advantage of also.
I don't know that I am done yet.
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Rocky
I would imagine that most states have applicable laws. Such laws more than likely address many but not all possible scenarios. If I wanted to know what really constitutes rape, I'd start with:
Which state?
What are the ages of the individuals in the scenario(s).
What are the sex(es) of the individuals (it's probably fair to say that this is no longer exclusively a male committing an act (of violence, or whatever else) against a female).
What other factors are involved, for example:
capacity to grant consent (age and physical and/or mental/emotional disability and other things could be involved)
nature of the (if any) prior relationship of the individuals
specific communications that may or may not have taken place between the individuals.
--------
There's probably more factors, but each possible combination of factors should FIRST be analyzed to determine if any applicable law exists, and if none, what things could influence any potential ambiguities in the situation.
As for me, as a male, I know I have to respect all applicable boundaries, including but not necessarily limited to: consent, age, etc. and it's better to keep out of potential trouble than to push the limits of acceptible conduct in hopes not to get in trouble (or caught).
Other than that, it occurs to me that the reason for such an inquiry, in the mind/intent of the inquirer WILL significantly influence the structure of any discussion of the topic.
And other than helping any person, potential victim or perpetrator, to avoid a dangerous situation, I don't understand the need for such a discussion. There may be a need, but I don't see it.
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coolchef
what potato went through imo was and is rape
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ChattyKathy
I would call that abuse in more than one form coolchef. She was not talking about a wife being a prude and finally the husband saying enough of this.
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GarthP2000
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Dot Matrix
But if you still live under the same roof and are still a wife-
I bet the courts will not see it as rape.
But if you talk to the husband and tell him you no longer want to do this and it is forced
Well, rape
There is the word force again.
What about the con man lover. The guy who loves the (say) woman and swindles her out of her funds. He lies to get her money, the same lies got her in bed. Is that ethically a rape or just a stupid woman. OR forget ehtically is it just a rape.
Garth
Isn't it weird that in one state you can are a rapist and one you are not.
Makes me wonder what goes into the thought process of making the laws...
Is it a discussion like this? People sitting around disscussing ethics, what crosses the line, what is bad judgement or actual rape.
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CoolWaters
This is a very charged topic for me...not only because of my 'history', but also because of having raised a daughter who 'consensually' had sex with a man 7 years her senior and became pregnant, having been there with so many girls and women after being raped, having friends who have been caught in many of the exampled situations.
I will do my best to check my emotions at the door.
When I was 14 I had sex once with a 15yo boy from school. This was the first time I had 'consensual' sex. It was in the woods behind an apartment complex where he and I had met at my youth pastor's place for bible study...then left after opening prayer. I felt nothing. Had no clue that anything had happened. Never felt any penetration or anything. But I got pregnant. When my mother asked me if I had any "sticky stuff" on my legs or panties, I had no idea what she was talking about...she had to explain to me about semen. I truly had no clue about the actual physical reality of sex.
Was that rape? No. Was it consensual? I had no clue what I was consenting to, so how could it be consensual?
Until then, I did not understand that what my dad had done to me from age 4 to age 9 would be in any way similar to what someone I 'liked' or 'loved' would do to me.
Once I understood, I also understood all the other stuff...like being told that because I was so fat (ha! I can only wish that I weighed 140 lbs again!) the only boys that would have anything to do with me were the boys that knew fat girls were easy. What did easy mean to me before that time? I figured it meant that I'd kiss them and let them touch me. After that time, I understood...and for too many years felt that all I had to offer to a boy or a man was the use of my body.
So when I began offering that at the age of 15, was I then 'consenting'?
Often laymen forget that consent does not immediately imply agreement, understanding, or willingness.
(Edited to add "not" before "immediately" in my last sentence.)
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Siouxzahn
Very close to it, potato. The woman's conditioning that prevented her from refusing disqualifies the treatment as outright rape IMO; but if she had refused, who's to know whether it would not quickly have become true rape?
Definitely assault, even if "only" emotional assault.
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templelady
FACT: forty years ago this world was a very different place. Girls and even boys were much more sexually naive for a much longer period of time--
But now---
Sorry
You'd be hard pressed to find a normal, as in not mentally handicapped, kid who didn't know what sex was--
In Alaska let us say you as a freshman girl in high school go to the junior prom with a 17 year old. You continue to date and be sexually active. IN your sophomore year you are 15 and your boyfriend is now a senior and turns 18. You continue to have sex. NOW under the law he is a rapist and can be prosecuted as such. For the rest of his life he will wear the sex offender label
YOU are 29 two of your co-workers are a father and daughter. She is 19 and you start to date with the fathers full consent. The relationship becomes sexual and talk of marriage ensues. Then one day you are led away in handcuffs--WHY?? because she is actually 16 and the father used false documents so she could work because they needed the income. You go to jail for the next 5 years as a child molester.
YOU are 21 sitting in a bar and this gorgeous girl comes up to you --you spend a great evening talking and that weekend you meet her for dinner. You meet again at the bar the following week and it leads to sex. Next thing you know you are in a squad car --shes 16 using her sisters ID--- You Child Molester You!
Hypothetical, I wish--these are actual men I have encountered. Decent guys who for the rest of their lives will not be able to find jobs and housing, who will be mistrusted by their neighbors because theyare Registered Sex Offenders.
IN all these situations there is a sex offender all right -- but imo it isn't the guy!
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VeganXTC
That's really sad, Templelady. I understand and agree that there needs to be a law to protect children, but those examples prove to me that the law needs to be revised.
Potato, according to what you wrote, and what Templelady posted about the law's definition of assent, I would consider the act between the husband and wife a rape.
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CoolWaters
What sexual abuse does to a child's mind hasn't changed in 40 years. What people think of those children as adults has, though.
Any abuse, really.
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JoePascha
Rape is one of the offences I believe should be punished by imprisonment for life at the very least.
If a person is imature, naieve, even at age 17, 18 this sometimes can be considered rape. In fact age might not matter in some case. Take for example many of young men that were raped by Catholic Priests...most of them were 16 and over...the media doesn't tell you this they want to use the word pedephilia to suggest that these preditors were after children...that was not the case. When a person has spiritual authority over another, and the victom doesn't know better, they lack the freedom of will in this situation.
Another thing that can be considerd rape is for example, I will do such and such to you or your family if you don't have sex with me...that is rape in my book.
Any adult who has sex with a child is guilty of rape.
OF course the classical forced rape is always Rape big time.
Sex with mentally disabled persons is rape too, when they don't have the faculty of reason that is necessary to know what is appropiate and what it not.
Well that is my story and I am sticking to it.
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Rocky
No, it is NOT weird. It's fundamental civics in America. IF the federal government (Congress) passed (a) law(s) on rape, it would be standardized. However, it's NOT a federal law. However, there are efforts, likely in every state, by state legislatures, to conform to model legislation on various issues/topics. That includes criminal laws. Many state lawmakers are members of groups such as NCSL or ALEC. That would be the National Conference of State Legislatures http://www.ncsl.org which offers a variety of services to help lawmakers tailor policies that will work for their states/constituents; and the American Legislative Exchange Council http://www.alec.org which says it advances the Jeffersonian principles of free markets, limited government, federalism and individual liberty among America's state legislators.
Most definitely NOT. A "reader's digest" summary of the process goes something like this:
A problem presents itself in society, which through perhaps a media outlet causes concern in at least a small group of individuals who either are lawmakers or who communicate with their lawmakers. Someone does research on related state laws and writes a piece of legislation for introduction to the formal lawmaking process. That someone could be an activist (concerned citizen), lobbyist, a lawmaker her/himself, or a staff person/group of the legislature. Or an idea might be subject to interest in other states, made known on a widespread basis to members of NCSL or ALEC.
Once a bill is introduced in at least one chamber of the state's lawmaking body, it is (if it is to be seriously considered) assigned to one or more committee for a public hearing. Notice is given publicly (check your state's legislature for specifics), then is presented for discussion and public input in the committee. Discussion entails a Q&A by members of the committee and testimony by experts and concerned citizens to consider what current law exists, how/why it is not addressing the problem, explanation of how the bill WILL address the situation, related ramifications as far as foreseeable (such as the cost to the government and the public), changes (fine tuning perhaps) to the bill are considered, votes taken in the committee and in the COW (committee of the whole), and if passed in one chamber (in all states except Nebraska, which is UNIcameral... having only one chamber of the state legislature) it is sent to the other chamber for a repeat of the process. When a bill passes both chambers (with the exact same wording) it is sent to the governor to sign, veto or just let it become law without the governor's signature. IF the two chambers modify the bill differently, the versions must be conformed (submitted again for a final vote by one or the other or both chambers) before sending it on to the governor.
If it becomes law (signed by governor, or no action taken by governor), citizens have, in most cases, a few months to consider whether to force a vote by registered voters on whether or not to accept the bill as passed and signed (referendum). Few bills (only the most controversial) are ever actually subject to a referendum vote.
------------
Bottom line is that lawmaking does NOT start with casual discussions that happen just for kicks. It entails FIRST recognition of a problem, then deliberation in a formal setting, on what the problem is and how to address it with changes to existing state statue and/or session law.
And rather than simply asking everyone in the state to ponder some nebulous concept, people with an interest in the issue work to get the attention of lawmakers -- concerned citizens, lobbyists, other lawmakers -- trying to convince enough people about the problem and proposed solution.
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Dot Matrix
Temple lady
I know what you mean, a-father-friend-of-mine had a teen daughter who allowed her female teen friend to spend the night. The next day, unbeknownst to him they cut school.
When the shcool called the father (my friend), he notified the mother of the teen who spent the night. That teen got so angry she said, "Well, her father touched me in the middle of the night."
The short story:
The father lost his job, lost his home, lost his daughter and had to get an atty to represent him in court. Fortunately, the girl had written a note to a school friend who said she was going to accuse the father to "get even," if that note had not surfaced he'd be in jail.
Also, he still has it on his record that he was up on charges. To have it wiped off his record he needs to pay some sort of cost, he does not have. The only job he could get was at a deli his friend owned -- money is tight and the recovery slow.
edit for typo
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Belle
I think it really has to be looked at on a case by case basis.
For example:
With a 15 year old - What could be considered "consensual" for one girl could be considered "rape" for another girl, depending on the maturity level and circumstances.
I think it's impossible to make blanket decisions, but some situations are obviously rape whereas others are in a more "gray" area.
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krys
Thanks Rocky.
rock on
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coolchef
dot
how sad
imo that teenage sl*t abused that guy
where is the justice
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potato
no kidding. he should be able to sue the brat's family for damages.
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excathedra
i personally can live without the grammar lessons
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