Great thread, LikeAnEagle – and great post on Romans 8 - one of my favorite books of the Bible - and a very appropriate passage for this thread! I love going over old TWI stuff and everybody thinking out loud on it. Once again I come to a mystery that frustrates my technical mind – because I always want to know how stuff works. How does God work in the world… in our lives? The Bible really doesn't say anything about how He does – it just simply asserts that He does…I was reading a couple of passages [shown below] where Jesus talks about Himself, the Father and the Spirit working in our lives. If I had to point out a "great principle" in these passages – I would have to say it's obedience to God's commands [like loving one another], remaining faithful to Him.
John 14:15-27 NIV
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"
23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
John 15:1-17 NIV
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.
The so-called Great Principle was based on Wierwille's doctrine that God could not speak to us directly, I think that Wierwille said something like "God can only speak to what he is, i.e, spirit", related to his assetion that God can only give what he is.
I don't think that either can be supported by the bible.
Not only can they not be supported by the Bible, they are both flat out contradicted by the Bible. Talk about putting God in a box! He can create everything from nothing, but he can't have a chat with someone what ain't born agin? Nonsense. God can speak to anyone directly. And He can give, say, manna, which means "what is it?" Well, I don't know what it was, but if they ate it, it wan't spirit.
Not only can they not be supported by the Bible, they are both flat out contradicted by the Bible. Talk about putting God in a box! He can create everything from nothing, but he can't have a chat with someone what ain't born agin? Nonsense. God can speak to anyone directly...
Good point, Raf…and in the case of how top TWI leadership run things – they not only put God in a box for yah – they’re the only ones authorized to open the box…It is the Priesthood of the Box…I know of Jack-in-the-Box but don’t think TWI knows jack squat about a god in the box…I dunno…maybe it’s my fault - - perhaps I should review the chapter Are You Limiting the Box?
Do you have scriptural to back up your comments?..We are making an honest attempt to look at scriptures...
Raf-
I understand what you are saying Raf, and there is alot of info in the bible, that can cause us to stumble in the limiting area. But, It does wide is the gate, but narrow is the way. As far as folks seeking, that is where God can work in someone..
But, yet, it is definitive how God looks at it. Im speaking of today and not yesteryear of the old testment...
I understand what you are saying Raf, and there is alot of info in the bible, that can cause us to stumble in the limiting area. But, It does wide is the gate, but narrow is the way. As far as folks seeking, that is where God can work in someone..
But, yet, it is definitive how God looks at it. Im speaking of today and not yesteryear of the old testment...
The Old Testiment is not yesteryear. Everything written in the New Testament was based on what was learned from the O.T. If one comes to a deeper understanding of the O.T., they will aslo come to a deeper understanding of the N.T. Jesus did not teach a New Testament, he just simpified and summed up what was already there.
While talking to Nicodemus, Jesus spoke of the Spirit's work:
John 3:8 NKJV
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.
I like the note in The MacArthur Study Bible on this verse and thought it would go well with this thread:
"3.8 The wind blows where it wishes. Jesus' point was that just as the wind cannot be controlled or understood by human beings but its effects can be witnessed, so also it is with the Holy Spirit. He cannot be controlled or understood, but the proof of His work is apparent. Where the Spirit works, there is undeniable and unmistakable evidence."
While talking to Nicodemus, Jesus spoke of the Spirit's work:
John 3:8 NKJV
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.
I like the note in The MacArthur Study Bible on this verse and thought it would go well with this thread:
"3.8 The wind blows where it wishes. Jesus' point was that just as the wind cannot be controlled or understood by human beings but its effects can be witnessed, so also it is with the Holy Spirit. He cannot be controlled or understood, but the proof of His work is apparent. Where the Spirit works, there is undeniable and unmistakable evidence."
Wow! That is a beautiful analogy!
The presence of spirit inside us obviously has more than one purpose, as we can all attest to with the scriptural knowledge and background that we have collectively. But in light of its use by God as a "communication" device it seems logical to me to think that it is primarily for our benefit than His. He after all is God and can do whatever He chooses, but we are not so powerful and sometimes our ability to grasp spiritual things is limited. Perhaps its presence alone allows our minds to comprehend things that we otherwise would not or could not whether they be spiritual or physical, (like science or mechanics or whatever as I have also had something "dawn" on me in those areas as well)
Anyway just thinking out loud. Reading all of your posts brought this to mind.
I don't mean to offend, but this works the same for me with many other topics. For example, something scientific that I don't understand but think about from time to time. One day something may happen and it helps me understand what I was thinking about. It just seems to be how the brain works.
Perhaps the spirit is a little more integrated in your being and not something "seperate" as Wierwille's definition seems to imply. He used to say "God's hands behind your hands, God's behind behind your behind..." or something like that. Martindale used to describe it as a well tailored shirt. Why behind? Why on you like a shirt? Why sperate from you? What does it mean for the spirit to be IN you? Is it something that you contain or something that is as much you as you?
You don't offend; I agree with you. I just didn't put all of that into the post. I didn't think of it at the time but it is true for me as well. I think the spirit is in me, like blood is in me or perhaps more like my genetic code is in me. It is not seperate in any way from me, but obviously not grafted to me...hard to explain. I never liked the whole hands behind my hands analogy. It sounded more like manipulation than inspiration to me. We are exhorted to "put on the mind of Christ" it would seem to me that the accomplishment of this would be easier if the spirit of Christ within were actually part of a person and not "behind" or even "on" them like a shirt. The logistics of that are still boggling my mind.
With that said I am going to finish my morning infusion of caffein and try to activate my brain to perhaps unboggle this thing. Maybe the spirit realm is simpler than we try to make it...like TBone said.
but I will not redefine its purpose..just looking to see if there is something im missing:)
Hiya Eagle!
Sorry did it sound like I was trying to redefine it? I was just thinking out loud. Obviously I need to drink more Diet Pepsi before I open my mouth in the morning. Especially after a late night.
While I readjust my DP IV drip...please continue the discussion. :D
It is the Priesthood of the Box…I know of Jack-in-the-Box but don’t think TWI knows jack squat about a god in the box…I dunno…maybe it’s my fault - - perhaps I should review the chapter Are You Limiting the Box?
:biglaugh:
thanks T-bone, from henceforth twi's upper eschelon shall be known as The Priesthood of The Box, or POB for short (at least for me).
LikeAnEagle, I hope you don't mind me posting more stuff on this John 3:8 passage – I swear I'm not trying to hijack your thread or anything – – just thought some things I found might be of interest in a discussion of how the Spirit works.
John 3:8 NASB
The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.
John 3:8 NET
The wind blows wherever it will, and you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.
Two notes The NET Bible gives on this verse are as follows:
The same Greek word, pneuvmato" (pneumatos), may be translated "wind" or "spirit."
Again, the physical illustrates the spiritual, although the force is heightened by the word-play here on wind-spirit (see the note on wind at the beginning of this verse). By the end of the verse, however, the final usage of pneuvmato" (pneumatos) refers to the Holy Spirit.
The Interlinear Bible, general editor and translator Jay P. Green has a literal translation in the side column – and for John 3:8 Green's literal translation reads:
The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice; but you do not know where He comes, and where He goes – so is everyone who has received birth from the Spirit.
I think Green's literal translation loses something eliminating the word-play of wind and Spirit. In my opinion keeping the comparison with the wind in the verse suggests the autonomy and mysteriousness of how the Sprit works.
And in thinking about this word-play by Jesus I found mention of the words for "spirit" used in the Old and New Testament in Understanding Christian Theology , general editors Charles Swindoll and Roy Zuck, Part VI: Humanity and Sin, Chapter 4, The Material Aspect of Human Nature, page 686:
…The most common word in the Old Testament for God's life-giving breath is the Hebrew ruah. This word is used elsewhere to refer to the wind, the breath [or spirit] of an individual, or the Spirit of God. Some commentators and translators have distinguished sharply between these referents, and that may be appropriate in places, but several verses make those distinctions difficult. For example, Genesis 1:2 speaks of the ruah on the surface of the waters. Is that the wind or the Spirit of God? The same difficulty exists in the New Testament with the Greek word pneuma. In John 3:8 Jesus said the pneuma blows where it wishes, and He compared that to those who are "born of the pneuma." We tend to translate one as "wind" and the other as "Spirit," but we probably overlook Jesus' association of the two images. Old Testament theologian Walter Eichrodt has appropriately summarized their interrelationship.
"Ruah has retained at all times – and in this it is akin to the Greek pneuma – the meaning "wind," denoting the movement of air both outside Man in Nature, and inside him, his own breath. Just as, in ancient popular belief, the wind was regarded as something mysterious, the bringer of life and fertility, so at an early stage primitive Man observed that breath also was an indispensable bearer of life, the origin of which he could not explain. Just as Man only comes to life in the first place because God breathes into him his own breath of life, so in order for him to succeed during life the ruah must not be impaired or dwindle away, or, if it does vanish, it must return to him. Morever, even the animal kingdom is called into existence by the same vital principle. Hence every living thing in the world is dependent on God's constantly letting his breath of life go forth to renew the created order; and when its vital spirit from God is withdrawn every creature must sink down in death." [Walter Eichrodt, Theology of the Old Testament, Old Testament Library, trans. John A. Baker, Philadelphia: Westminster, 1967, 2:46-47]
Another Wow..TBone..I can understand this so much better. I does fit my pea brain understanding. I can see how the One Body do need each other for the Spirit to regenerate folks, as a part of the whole picture. It more than one just being born again, but the purpose is to give life!! big stuff:)
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T-Bone
Great thread, LikeAnEagle – and great post on Romans 8 - one of my favorite books of the Bible - and a very appropriate passage for this thread! I love going over old TWI stuff and everybody thinking out loud on it. Once again I come to a mystery that frustrates my technical mind – because I always want to know how stuff works. How does God work in the world… in our lives? The Bible really doesn't say anything about how He does – it just simply asserts that He does…I was reading a couple of passages [shown below] where Jesus talks about Himself, the Father and the Spirit working in our lives. If I had to point out a "great principle" in these passages – I would have to say it's obedience to God's commands [like loving one another], remaining faithful to Him.
John 14:15-27 NIV
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"
23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
John 15:1-17 NIV
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.
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likeaneagle
Tbone- Yes, I always loved the section on the Comforter..God always makes a way out when we think there is no way.
also, twi's perpetual cycle of condemnation doesnt help...
But, I find the more I read the more I believe it...yet, I feel like I fall short...
THanks so much for providing more insight..from the scriptures.
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Raf
Not only can they not be supported by the Bible, they are both flat out contradicted by the Bible. Talk about putting God in a box! He can create everything from nothing, but he can't have a chat with someone what ain't born agin? Nonsense. God can speak to anyone directly. And He can give, say, manna, which means "what is it?" Well, I don't know what it was, but if they ate it, it wan't spirit.
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T-Bone
Good point, Raf…and in the case of how top TWI leadership run things – they not only put God in a box for yah – they’re the only ones authorized to open the box…It is the Priesthood of the Box…I know of Jack-in-the-Box but don’t think TWI knows jack squat about a god in the box…I dunno…maybe it’s my fault - - perhaps I should review the chapter Are You Limiting the Box?
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likeaneagle
Raf
Do you have scriptural to back up your comments?..We are making an honest attempt to look at scriptures...
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likeaneagle
Raf-
I understand what you are saying Raf, and there is alot of info in the bible, that can cause us to stumble in the limiting area. But, It does wide is the gate, but narrow is the way. As far as folks seeking, that is where God can work in someone..
But, yet, it is definitive how God looks at it. Im speaking of today and not yesteryear of the old testment...
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Abigail
The Old Testiment is not yesteryear. Everything written in the New Testament was based on what was learned from the O.T. If one comes to a deeper understanding of the O.T., they will aslo come to a deeper understanding of the N.T. Jesus did not teach a New Testament, he just simpified and summed up what was already there.
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T-Bone
While talking to Nicodemus, Jesus spoke of the Spirit's work:
John 3:8 NKJV
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.
I like the note in The MacArthur Study Bible on this verse and thought it would go well with this thread:
"3.8 The wind blows where it wishes. Jesus' point was that just as the wind cannot be controlled or understood by human beings but its effects can be witnessed, so also it is with the Holy Spirit. He cannot be controlled or understood, but the proof of His work is apparent. Where the Spirit works, there is undeniable and unmistakable evidence."
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Eyesopen
Wow! That is a beautiful analogy!
The presence of spirit inside us obviously has more than one purpose, as we can all attest to with the scriptural knowledge and background that we have collectively. But in light of its use by God as a "communication" device it seems logical to me to think that it is primarily for our benefit than His. He after all is God and can do whatever He chooses, but we are not so powerful and sometimes our ability to grasp spiritual things is limited. Perhaps its presence alone allows our minds to comprehend things that we otherwise would not or could not whether they be spiritual or physical, (like science or mechanics or whatever as I have also had something "dawn" on me in those areas as well)
Anyway just thinking out loud. Reading all of your posts brought this to mind.
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cman
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Eyesopen
You don't offend; I agree with you. I just didn't put all of that into the post. I didn't think of it at the time but it is true for me as well. I think the spirit is in me, like blood is in me or perhaps more like my genetic code is in me. It is not seperate in any way from me, but obviously not grafted to me...hard to explain. I never liked the whole hands behind my hands analogy. It sounded more like manipulation than inspiration to me. We are exhorted to "put on the mind of Christ" it would seem to me that the accomplishment of this would be easier if the spirit of Christ within were actually part of a person and not "behind" or even "on" them like a shirt. The logistics of that are still boggling my mind.
With that said I am going to finish my morning infusion of caffein and try to activate my brain to perhaps unboggle this thing. Maybe the spirit realm is simpler than we try to make it...like TBone said.
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likeaneagle
Welcome!! Eyesopen!!
There is alot to chew on in this subject..
but I will not redefine its purpose..just looking to see if there is something im missing:)
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Eyesopen
Hiya Eagle!
Sorry did it sound like I was trying to redefine it? I was just thinking out loud. Obviously I need to drink more Diet Pepsi before I open my mouth in the morning.
Especially after a late night.
While I readjust my DP IV drip...please continue the discussion. :D
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potato
thanks T-bone, from henceforth twi's upper eschelon shall be known as The Priesthood of The Box, or POB for short (at least for me).
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T-Bone
LikeAnEagle, I hope you don't mind me posting more stuff on this John 3:8 passage – I swear I'm not trying to hijack your thread or anything –
– just thought some things I found might be of interest in a discussion of how the Spirit works.
John 3:8 NASB
The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.
John 3:8 NET
The wind blows wherever it will, and you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.
Two notes The NET Bible gives on this verse are as follows:
The same Greek word, pneuvmato" (pneumatos), may be translated "wind" or "spirit."
Again, the physical illustrates the spiritual, although the force is heightened by the word-play here on wind-spirit (see the note on wind at the beginning of this verse). By the end of the verse, however, the final usage of pneuvmato" (pneumatos) refers to the Holy Spirit.
The Interlinear Bible, general editor and translator Jay P. Green has a literal translation in the side column – and for John 3:8 Green's literal translation reads:
The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice; but you do not know where He comes, and where He goes – so is everyone who has received birth from the Spirit.
I think Green's literal translation loses something eliminating the word-play of wind and Spirit. In my opinion keeping the comparison with the wind in the verse suggests the autonomy and mysteriousness of how the Sprit works.
And in thinking about this word-play by Jesus I found mention of the words for "spirit" used in the Old and New Testament in Understanding Christian Theology , general editors Charles Swindoll and Roy Zuck, Part VI: Humanity and Sin, Chapter 4, The Material Aspect of Human Nature, page 686:
…The most common word in the Old Testament for God's life-giving breath is the Hebrew ruah. This word is used elsewhere to refer to the wind, the breath [or spirit] of an individual, or the Spirit of God. Some commentators and translators have distinguished sharply between these referents, and that may be appropriate in places, but several verses make those distinctions difficult. For example, Genesis 1:2 speaks of the ruah on the surface of the waters. Is that the wind or the Spirit of God? The same difficulty exists in the New Testament with the Greek word pneuma. In John 3:8 Jesus said the pneuma blows where it wishes, and He compared that to those who are "born of the pneuma." We tend to translate one as "wind" and the other as "Spirit," but we probably overlook Jesus' association of the two images. Old Testament theologian Walter Eichrodt has appropriately summarized their interrelationship.
"Ruah has retained at all times – and in this it is akin to the Greek pneuma – the meaning "wind," denoting the movement of air both outside Man in Nature, and inside him, his own breath. Just as, in ancient popular belief, the wind was regarded as something mysterious, the bringer of life and fertility, so at an early stage primitive Man observed that breath also was an indispensable bearer of life, the origin of which he could not explain. Just as Man only comes to life in the first place because God breathes into him his own breath of life, so in order for him to succeed during life the ruah must not be impaired or dwindle away, or, if it does vanish, it must return to him. Morever, even the animal kingdom is called into existence by the same vital principle. Hence every living thing in the world is dependent on God's constantly letting his breath of life go forth to renew the created order; and when its vital spirit from God is withdrawn every creature must sink down in death." [Walter Eichrodt, Theology of the Old Testament, Old Testament Library, trans. John A. Baker, Philadelphia: Westminster, 1967, 2:46-47]
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likeaneagle
Another Wow..TBone..I can understand this so much better. I does fit my pea brain understanding. I can see how the One Body do need each other for the Spirit to regenerate folks, as a part of the whole picture. It more than one just being born again, but the purpose is to give life!! big stuff:)
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WordWolf
We discussed "The Great Principle" here...
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