1 John 3: 1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
How often do you think about The Hope? And what do you think it means in verse three when it says we are purified even as he is pure?
Interesting. Looking at this passage now, it seems like it may be an exhortation toward becoming something along the lines of an ascetic
(be it literally or figuratively, internally)
Those having this hope - (he) "purifies himself" - in contrast to those in the following passages "doing lawlessness"
and "sinning". All is dependant upon "remaining" in him - "doing" righteousness and loving their brother, "Keeping His precepts
and doing what is pleasing in His sight".
Similarly
"The Sons of this Eon marry. But those whom the God of the other Age has deemed worthy to take part in the resurrection
from the dead neither marry or are given in marriage. For they shall no longer die. For they are equal to the angels and are the sons of God,
being sons of the resurrection." (Luke/Marcion 20:34-36).
1 John 3: 1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
How often do you think about The Hope? And what do you think it means in verse three when it says we are purified even as he is pure?
A) Often, it's what keeps me going.
B) I think the most direct reading of this is that someone expecting Christ to return at any time,
with that immediacy fresh to them,
they will act like they expect him to return at any time,
and certainly not act like they want him to return at the moment they're doing something
they shouldn't be doing-
they want each moment to reflect a walk worthy of Jesus Christ's calling.
For me personally it isn’t so much a matter of living as if He were coming back any second as much as how would I live if there were no hope at all? There would be no point in anything. Because I know He is coming back sometime and this life is temporary, I do my best. I have a reason and a motive to live as godly as possible besides the fact that it is the right thing to do.
The phrase “hope in Him” caught my eye. Not THE hope, but hope in Him is the condition. Purify relates to commitment to refrain from sin with the purity of Jesus as an example. The idea originates with the Nazirite vow of the O.T.
Seems this 'Hope' is in us. And the appearing may not be what one might expect. Like some world wide drama, but more like what we 'see', cause it doth not yet appear but when 'he' shall appear we shall be like him seeing him as he is.
Doesn't say when or how here. Purifying himself even as he is pure. Sounds more like growth to me.
Why do you think 'this expectation is the 'return of Christ'.
Why do you think the hope is the 'return of Christ'.
I don't find the phrase 'return of Christ' in the bible.
The hope is not presented in that manner.
Though many think this way.
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.."
Would your faith suffer if the return of the Lord came during or after the great tribulation?
Since I believe (have faith) that he will return before the great tribulation this question has no relevance for me. However, perhaps someone else that believes we (Christians) will still be here at the time of the tribulation might have their faith suffer. I guess we'll just have to wait and see -- assuming the great tribulation happens anytime soon. I'm 52 yrs old and not getting younger.
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.."
Seems pretty self-explanatory to me. Context.
Not so self-explanatory to me. Read what is written. It does not say when he shall return, it says when he shall appear. Who says he shall appear to everyone at one time as in some great return, as opposed to him appearing to each individual at the proper time for that individual?
Wow, Clay, did I get that right? Is this what you have been trying to show me for so long???
Not so self-explanatory to me. Read what is written. It does not say when he shall return, it says when he shall appear. Who says he shall appear to everyone at one time as in some great return, as opposed to him appearing to each individual at the proper time for that individual?
Wow, Clay, did I get that right? Is this what you have been trying to show me for so long???
Well, Abi, if Christ has ascended into heaven unless he's capable of being in two places at the same time I'd say he would have to return to earth. If, as you say, it's about a personal appearance to individuals then I know of very few that have made that claim. And therefore they are unable to purify themselves even as he is pure. But you know what -- Some have claimed to have seen Elvis flipping hamburgers somewhere. ;)
Well, Abi, if Christ has ascended into heaven unless he's capable of being in two places at the same time I'd say he would have to return to earth. If, as you say, it's about a personal appearance to individuals then I know of very few that have made that claim. And therefore they are unable to purify themselves even as he is pure. But you know what -- Some have claimed to have seen Elvis flipping hamburgers somewhere. ;)
Having ascended to heaven is he now limited to heaven? Or did he appear to Paul? Or perhaps not, as has been implied in the Paulism thread.
Hey, he hasn't appeared to me visually either, nor do I know many who would make that claim. But maybe the appearing isn't necessarily or always a visual appearing. Maybe it is an appearing in the heart, in the mind, via sound, maybe it is different for every individual. Maybe he did appear and the individual didn't recognize what they saw and someday that appearing will click in their mind and heart and it will all fall together and make sense.
I don't know, Larry. I am speculating, thinking through ideas and possibilities. I still have the blinders of the teachings of TWI stuck in my brain when it comes to a lot of this NT stuff. I have a difficult time seeing past those teachings to consider other possiblities. Perhaps that is why I enjoy the OT so much - because TWI spent so little time there.
Look again at the pronouns, and the way different versions have rendered this.
I would prefer that you break it down for me. My "blinders" may still be on. :)
I don't know, Larry. I am speculating, thinking through ideas and possibilities. I still have the blinders of the teachings of TWI stuck in my brain when it comes to a lot of this NT stuff. I have a difficult time seeing past those teachings to consider other possiblities. Perhaps that is why I enjoy the OT so much - because TWI spent so little time there.
I respect that Abi. I speculate quite a bit myself. My views have "evolved" quite a bit since I left TWI. In fact I could easily say I learned more since my departure.
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.."
Seems pretty self-explanatory to me. Context.
"appearing" is not the same as "returning"
I do believe it says the hope is IN us.
Not so self-explanatory to me. Read what is written. It does not say when he shall return, it says when he shall appear. Who says he shall appear to everyone at one time as in some great return, as opposed to him appearing to each individual at the proper time for that individual?
Wow, Clay, did I get that right? Is this what you have been trying to show me for so long???
Run that by me again. How are the two translations saying two different things?
Breaking it down:
Everyone who has what? This expectation. What expectation? The return of the Christ.
Everyone who has what? This expectation in Him. His promise to return.
As a result of this expectation or this expectation in him everyone purifies themselves even as he is pure.
The difference depends on whom the pronoun 'him' is referring to. Is it referring to Larry having this hope in his (Larry's) heart or is it referring to Larry having this hope in Him (Christ)? It may be a difference that makes no difference, but another spot sparked my curiousity.
Oops, I forgot to check who was signed in again. It's me, not John.
Wow, Clay! That is really cool. I think I have been on the verge of seeing that for a couple years now, but missed it - getting caught up in the "return" theory. Appear - very very cool :)
Jean, oftentimes when I'm at work (I work from 4 to midnight) and taking a break I'll come here to just read through some of the responses and consider them. Something you said in your last post just stuck in my mind.
It may be a difference that makes no difference . . .
For years I have pretty much thought along this line. What difference does any of it really make? I had come to the conclusion long ago, that (for me) it makes no difference at all. And even if it were to make a difference to someone else, then God will have to open the eyes of their understanding through someone besides myself. I'm retired.
Jean, oftentimes when I'm at work (I work from 4 to midnight) and taking a break I'll come here to just read through some of the responses and consider them. Something you said in your last post just stuck in my mind.
For years I have pretty much thought along this line. What difference does any of it really make? I had come to the conclusion long ago, that (for me) it makes no difference at all. And even if it were to make a difference to someone else, then God will have to open the eyes of their understanding through someone besides myself. I'm retired.
I would never have guessed you were retired from reading your posts on other threads. I think some things are important enough to matter to God (JCING, TDANAN, etc.) About some things, I guess I would quote Mr. Spock; 'a difference that MAKES no difference IS no difference', or else write it off to the 'manifold wisdom of God'. I guess I'm not sure that the possible difference I cited is earthshaking enough to spend oodles of time on. I think it can be read either way without detracting too much from God's word. I was mildly curious, that's all.
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TheInvisibleDan
Interesting. Looking at this passage now, it seems like it may be an exhortation toward becoming something along the lines of an ascetic
(be it literally or figuratively, internally)
Those having this hope - (he) "purifies himself" - in contrast to those in the following passages "doing lawlessness"
and "sinning". All is dependant upon "remaining" in him - "doing" righteousness and loving their brother, "Keeping His precepts
and doing what is pleasing in His sight".
Similarly
"The Sons of this Eon marry. But those whom the God of the other Age has deemed worthy to take part in the resurrection
from the dead neither marry or are given in marriage. For they shall no longer die. For they are equal to the angels and are the sons of God,
being sons of the resurrection." (Luke/Marcion 20:34-36).
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WordWolf
A) Often, it's what keeps me going.
B) I think the most direct reading of this is that someone expecting Christ to return at any time,
with that immediacy fresh to them,
they will act like they expect him to return at any time,
and certainly not act like they want him to return at the moment they're doing something
they shouldn't be doing-
they want each moment to reflect a walk worthy of Jesus Christ's calling.
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another spot
For me personally it isn’t so much a matter of living as if He were coming back any second as much as how would I live if there were no hope at all? There would be no point in anything. Because I know He is coming back sometime and this life is temporary, I do my best. I have a reason and a motive to live as godly as possible besides the fact that it is the right thing to do.
The phrase “hope in Him” caught my eye. Not THE hope, but hope in Him is the condition. Purify relates to commitment to refrain from sin with the purity of Jesus as an example. The idea originates with the Nazirite vow of the O.T.
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cman
Seems this 'Hope' is in us. And the appearing may not be what one might expect. Like some world wide drama, but more like what we 'see', cause it doth not yet appear but when 'he' shall appear we shall be like him seeing him as he is.
Doesn't say when or how here. Purifying himself even as he is pure. Sounds more like growth to me.
Just like 'Him'.
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Jeaniam
That's an interesting point, another spot. It seems there are two ways to read verse 3, and neither one is necessarily inaccurate.
1). 'And every man that hath this hope in him (in his heart) purifieth himself, even as he (Christ) is pure'.
2). 'And every man that hath this hope in him (in Christ) purifieth himself, even as he (Christ) is pure'.
Does anyone have an opinion (or am I just being nitpicky)?
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TheInvisibleDan
You are absolutely right -
And everyone who has this expectation purifies himself, as he is pure. (Schonfield)
And everyone who has this expectation in Him is purifying himself, according as He is pure (Concordant Literal NT)
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Larry N Moore
Run that by me again. How are the two translations saying two different things?
Breaking it down:
Everyone who has what? This expectation. What expectation? The return of the Christ.
Everyone who has what? This expectation in Him. His promise to return.
As a result of this expectation or this expectation in him everyone purifies themselves even as he is pure.
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cman
Larry,
Why do you think 'this expectation is the 'return of Christ'.
Why do you think the hope is the 'return of Christ'.
I don't find the phrase 'return of Christ' in the bible.
The hope is not presented in that manner.
Though many think this way.
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Larry N Moore
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.."
Seems pretty self-explanatory to me. Context.
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def59
Would your faith suffer if the return of the Lord came during or after the great tribulation?
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Larry N Moore
Since I believe (have faith) that he will return before the great tribulation this question has no relevance for me. However, perhaps someone else that believes we (Christians) will still be here at the time of the tribulation might have their faith suffer. I guess we'll just have to wait and see -- assuming the great tribulation happens anytime soon. I'm 52 yrs old and not getting younger.
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Abigail
Not so self-explanatory to me. Read what is written. It does not say when he shall return, it says when he shall appear. Who says he shall appear to everyone at one time as in some great return, as opposed to him appearing to each individual at the proper time for that individual?
Wow, Clay, did I get that right? Is this what you have been trying to show me for so long???
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Larry N Moore
Well, Abi, if Christ has ascended into heaven unless he's capable of being in two places at the same time I'd say he would have to return to earth. If, as you say, it's about a personal appearance to individuals then I know of very few that have made that claim. And therefore they are unable to purify themselves even as he is pure. But you know what -- Some have claimed to have seen Elvis flipping hamburgers somewhere. ;)
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TheInvisibleDan
Look again at the pronouns, and the way different versions have rendered this.
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Abigail
Having ascended to heaven is he now limited to heaven? Or did he appear to Paul? Or perhaps not, as has been implied in the Paulism thread.
Hey, he hasn't appeared to me visually either, nor do I know many who would make that claim. But maybe the appearing isn't necessarily or always a visual appearing. Maybe it is an appearing in the heart, in the mind, via sound, maybe it is different for every individual. Maybe he did appear and the individual didn't recognize what they saw and someday that appearing will click in their mind and heart and it will all fall together and make sense.
I don't know, Larry. I am speculating, thinking through ideas and possibilities. I still have the blinders of the teachings of TWI stuck in my brain when it comes to a lot of this NT stuff. I have a difficult time seeing past those teachings to consider other possiblities. Perhaps that is why I enjoy the OT so much - because TWI spent so little time there.
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Larry N Moore
I would prefer that you break it down for me. My "blinders" may still be on. :)
I respect that Abi. I speculate quite a bit myself. My views have "evolved" quite a bit since I left TWI. In fact I could easily say I learned more since my departure.
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cman
"appearing" is not the same as "returning"
I do believe it says the hope is IN us.
Yes Abigail.
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TheInvisibleDan
As Jeaniam broke it down in her original post-
1).And every man that hath this hope in him (in his heart) purifieth himself, ...
2). And every man that hath this hope in Him (in Christ) purifieth himself, ...
It's a question of how a translator interprets "in him".
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johniam
The difference depends on whom the pronoun 'him' is referring to. Is it referring to Larry having this hope in his (Larry's) heart or is it referring to Larry having this hope in Him (Christ)? It may be a difference that makes no difference, but another spot sparked my curiousity.
Oops, I forgot to check who was signed in again. It's me, not John.
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cman
'every man' is clear enough-including women
'that hath' is not clear
one could have yet not know it, therefore no hope is had
so the verse about those without hope
haven't seen it yet...
if i had it and you didn't or you did and i didn't
what kind of God is that?
time to trade up I'd say...
this hope
seen in the heart as Abi pointed out,
as well as seen
no man hath seen God
blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God
who is in Christ
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Abigail
Wow, Clay! That is really cool. I think I have been on the verge of seeing that for a couple years now, but missed it - getting caught up in the "return" theory. Appear - very very cool :)
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Larry N Moore
Jean, oftentimes when I'm at work (I work from 4 to midnight) and taking a break I'll come here to just read through some of the responses and consider them. Something you said in your last post just stuck in my mind.
For years I have pretty much thought along this line. What difference does any of it really make? I had come to the conclusion long ago, that (for me) it makes no difference at all. And even if it were to make a difference to someone else, then God will have to open the eyes of their understanding through someone besides myself. I'm retired.
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Jeaniam
I would never have guessed you were retired from reading your posts on other threads. I think some things are important enough to matter to God (JCING, TDANAN, etc.) About some things, I guess I would quote Mr. Spock; 'a difference that MAKES no difference IS no difference', or else write it off to the 'manifold wisdom of God'. I guess I'm not sure that the possible difference I cited is earthshaking enough to spend oodles of time on. I think it can be read either way without detracting too much from God's word. I was mildly curious, that's all.
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