Pillai said it was a Musht fish. It's scientific name is the Talapia Galilea.
The Catholics have a site talking about the relevance of fish and Christianity.
"They may also swallow coins with the pebbles and many coins have been found in the mouths of musht. This may have been what happened when Jesus asked Peter to find a coin in the mouth of a fish to pay taxes."
:unsure: Where? I see pictures showing what the coins from that time period looked like - some found in front of an oil press and another picture, but nothing showing any coins actually taken from fish. Am I missing another link?
1. It keeps the coins in a bag in its mouth. A bag in its mouth, not found in the stomach because it could not be eliminated once swallowed.
2. Fishermen did and still become rich when they catch such fish. Neither a shekel, nor tetradrachma will make you rich. In the Biblical story, the coin paid a simple tax, not made Peter and Jesus rich.
A tetradrachma may have been what Judas was paid- 30 of them. A tetradrachma was about 4 days' pay for a common laborer ("tetra" = 4).
Both Pillai and Lamsa mix myth and legend (we'd call it urban legend today) into their teachings and can't distinguish between the two, perhaps because their culture didn't distinguish them.
I've just checked the Lamsa article and have to correct what I said earlier. Lamsa quotes similar expressions that are still in use, but not that specific one. So it could be taken as speculation on his part.
I have no problem, therefore, with the biblical account about the coin (shekel) in the mouth of the fish, but as Wordwolf says, it is the padding that Pillai (and others) are putting around it that is the problem.
It's possible that Pillai heard about this by word of mouth - he doesn't mention that he had any first hand experience. So it could have been just an "Urban Myth" as has been mentioned before.
Just to mention a story that was told to me as if it was true: the story about the guy who purchases a Winnebago with cruise control. Shortly after he joins the freeway on his first journey in the brand new vehicle, he turns on the cruise control, and then pops into the back to make a cup of tea! Of course, the story is just an urban myth, there's no record that this actually happened. But when I was first told the story, it was hard not to believe that it actually happened, I mean you'd sort of want to believe that the story just had to be true!
However, if anyone else knows otherwise ................
"I have seen the clever little pieces of jewelry which were made with mustard seeds, and I wish to say that the seeds of the East are really about one-tenth of the size of the ones which grow in America and Europe. They are truly the smallest of seeds and the plants they produce grow as large as trees. I want to verify that fact, since I fear that Westerners may visualize a small shrub when they read this verse.
This mustard seed represents Spirit which we receive into ourselves when we believe.-------------This speck of Spirit is ours to nourish and cause to grow until we indeed flourish like the mustard plant which rises up into a tree so large that the birds nest in it!"
There are many urban legends regarding Bible verses. Another myth is the idea that "camel thru the eye of a needle" refers to a short door in a wall that a camel had to crawl through. Not true. Jesus was using hyperbole to say that riches don't get people into heaven and riches are not a sign that a person is righteous and being blessed by God. This is apparent from the reaction of the disciples, "who then can be saved?" That's the right reaction, because no one can be saved by their works, only by grace.
Legends I think arise in sermons and Bible teachings. People (with good intentions) spin a yarn or repeat a yarn they've heard to try to explain a verse that is hard to understand or to accept. If the disciples in the above story had done this, they would have instead said not "who can be saved, " but "oh yea, anyone who lowers himself like a camel and humbles himself on his knees can make it." Not the right answer, but easier for humans to accept.
"I have seen the clever little pieces of jewelry which were made with mustard seeds, and I wish to say that the seeds of the East are really about one-tenth of the size of the ones which grow in America and Europe. They are truly the smallest of seeds and the plants they produce grow as large as trees. I want to verify that fact, since I fear that Westerners may visualize a small shrub when they read this verse.
This mustard seed represents Spirit which we receive into ourselves when we believe.-------------This speck of Spirit is ours to nourish and cause to grow until we indeed flourish like the mustard plant which rises up into a tree so large that the birds nest in it!"
Hmmmm?
Is there a botanist in the house?
I believe that he was referring to a necklace where they put a seed into a little sealed ball or a glass holder of some sort not actually making the jewelry itself of the seed.
The point I'm trying to convey here is not whether mustard grew as big as a tree in biblical times or whether the parable is accurate.
The point I'm making is that Pillai is implying that he, himself, in the twentieth century, observed mustard plants of these tree-like proportions and said he wanted to make it clear to "Westerners" that this plant is capable of growing well beyond the size of what would be considered a large shrub.
Did he actually see these plants growing in this day and time as he says he did?
(Forget, for a moment, about the Biblical aspect of the issue.)
That, in my opinion, is the question that has bearing on his credibility.
Also, notice that in the second paragraph, he(Pillai) expresses his belief regarding "the spark of the divine" as it is commonly called.
VPW was adamant in his teaching that "Christ in you" is the total package, not a "speck" or "spark" to be stoked like a fire until it erupted into a full fledged fire. Yet, at the same time, he(VPW) taught that the spirit in the believer had to be nurtured via speaking in tongues daily to become spiritually strong.
So, out of one side of his mouth he scoffs at the "spark" idea while promoting it out of the other side of his mouth.
Has anyone here been to the Holy Lands and seen these tree sized mustard plants that Pillai says he saw?
( Not talking about Bible times, talking about in the twentieth century.)
If they do exist, surely someone else must have seen them.
The point I'm trying to convey here is not whether mustard grew as big as a tree in biblical times or whether the parable is accurate.
The point I'm making is that Pillai is implying that he, himself, in the twentieth century, observed mustard plants of these tree-like proportions and said he wanted to make it clear to "Westerners" that this plant is capable of growing well beyond the size of what would be considered a large shrub.
Did he actually see these plants growing in this day and time as he says he did?
(Forget, for a moment, about the Biblical aspect of the issue.)
That, in my opinion, is the question that has bearing on his credibility
.
It appears that the plants are around today and grow to the height mentioned in the link I posted earlier. I have never seen one and I can't say if Pillai ever saw one,but I have no reason to think he did not ,as it does not seem out of the realm of everyday things like seeing corn grow in the midwest. It's not like it was some unbelievable event. The seeds are commonly used in Indian cuisine, so it should not be a rare thing to see ,why would you think that he would have not seen one?
I have personally never seen mustard other than the type grown in the common garden.
That certainly does not mean other types don't exist.
It's not relevant whether they existed in Biblical times because Pillai's experience and comment encompasses the twentieth century, which is when he supposedly saw them growing.
I am merely saying that if he did see these plants growing in modern times, his claim to have seen them would be a simple observation of fact.
As such, it would seem there should be others who could also say" Yes, I've seen this plant too and it fits Pillai's description."
Who knows?
Maybe a hundred people will come forth immediately and validate his claim.
That would be great, in my opinion.
On the other hand, if no one at all comes forth, it still doesn't negate his claim.
GSC is by no means a cross section representative sampling of the general populace.
Mustard is an annual.
It only grows for one season.(as far as I know)
Trees and shrubs are woody plants and as such grow for multiple seasons, thus allowing for greater ultimate size.
Still, it would be nice if someone with knowledge in the botany field could comment on an academic level regarding current forms of mustard or plants that are called mustard.
...Christ spoke of the mustard seed as the tiniest seed from which grows a large tree. This has been puzzling me for a long time, because the mustard seeds we know are definitely NOT the tiniest seeds you can find, and Brassica nigra is an annual, not a tree. However, there is a mustard tree in Israel, Salvadora persica. Its seeds are real tiny, like dust specks. The tree's also known as toothbrush tree. Could that be the tree in question?
There are many urban legends regarding Bible verses. Another myth is the idea that "camel thru the eye of a needle" refers to a short door in a wall that a camel had to crawl through. Not true. Jesus was using hyperbole to say that riches don't get people into heaven and riches are not a sign that a person is righteous and being blessed by God. This is apparent from the reaction of the disciples, "who then can be saved?" That's the right reaction, because no one can be saved by their works, only by grace.
Legends I think arise in sermons and Bible teachings. People (with good intentions) spin a yarn or repeat a yarn they've heard to try to explain a verse that is hard to understand or to accept. If the disciples in the above story had done this, they would have instead said not "who can be saved, " but "oh yea, anyone who lowers himself like a camel and humbles himself on his knees can make it." Not the right answer, but easier for humans to accept.
BTW,
based on the book "The Aramaic Origin of the Four Gospels",
and the explanation they gave on the "rope" "camel" business,
I'm inclined to think that Lamsa's rendering,
"ROPE through the eye of a needle" is the correct one.
I examined the 2 words as rendered in Aramaic-for "rope" and "camel",
and was unable to see the difference between them.
Whether or not it was "rope" or "camel", however, the meaning is the same.
Jesus spoke a metaphor describing an impossible act.
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TheInvisibleDan
Indeed, do eagles in the middle east still practice this custom?
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Rejoice
Pillai said it was a Musht fish. It's scientific name is the Talapia Galilea.
The Catholics have a site talking about the relevance of fish and Christianity.
"They may also swallow coins with the pebbles and many coins have been found in the mouths of musht. This may have been what happened when Jesus asked Peter to find a coin in the mouth of a fish to pay taxes."
http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/SFS/an0704.asp
Pictures of this fish and some coins retrieved from them; in fact at the bottom of this web page are links to other parable insights.
http://dqhall59.com/fish_and_coin.htm
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Belle
:unsure: Where? I see pictures showing what the coins from that time period looked like - some found in front of an oil press and another picture, but nothing showing any coins actually taken from fish. Am I missing another link?
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Pete
Thanks, those are interesting links and seem to add weight to the possibility that a literal coin was found.
I especially liked the "St Anthony" search engine! (St Anthony is the Catholic patron saint of lost items).
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johnj
Note the details in Pillai's story:
1. It keeps the coins in a bag in its mouth. A bag in its mouth, not found in the stomach because it could not be eliminated once swallowed.
2. Fishermen did and still become rich when they catch such fish. Neither a shekel, nor tetradrachma will make you rich. In the Biblical story, the coin paid a simple tax, not made Peter and Jesus rich.
A tetradrachma may have been what Judas was paid- 30 of them. A tetradrachma was about 4 days' pay for a common laborer ("tetra" = 4).
Both Pillai and Lamsa mix myth and legend (we'd call it urban legend today) into their teachings and can't distinguish between the two, perhaps because their culture didn't distinguish them.
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WordWolf
After doing some checking online, I don't see anything substantial connecting the
fish people mention as a real fish, with the fish people SAY was in the story,
nor have I seen documentation proving those fish collect money.
A separate issue is the level of detail Pillai gave- which leapt into the category of myth.
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WordWolf
I found it more interesting- even when in twi- that "Strange Scriptures That Perplex
the Western Mind" gave an entirely DIFFERENT explanation of the eagle being
renewed, and even then I thought it was more plausible as an answer.
That book said that the eagle's beak continues to grow, and when it gets too
long (I'm typing from distant memory so don't consider this a quote),
the eagle pecks a rock until the current beak breaks off. Then the eagle hides
itself until a new beak grows and hardens into place.
While it waits, it can't eat, so it's essentially on a fast. During that time,
its old feathers typically fall out, leaving new feathers growing under it.
Eventually, the eagle steps forward again,
with a new, shorter beak, and new feathers,
looking like a much younger eagle.
Please note that a quick web-search on this shows that others have asked
about this, and bird students have said this isn't true either.
One pointed out that the verse works as a metaphor, and taking it too
literally isn't necessary.
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Pete
I've just checked the Lamsa article and have to correct what I said earlier. Lamsa quotes similar expressions that are still in use, but not that specific one. So it could be taken as speculation on his part.
I have no problem, therefore, with the biblical account about the coin (shekel) in the mouth of the fish, but as Wordwolf says, it is the padding that Pillai (and others) are putting around it that is the problem.
It's possible that Pillai heard about this by word of mouth - he doesn't mention that he had any first hand experience. So it could have been just an "Urban Myth" as has been mentioned before.
Just to mention a story that was told to me as if it was true: the story about the guy who purchases a Winnebago with cruise control. Shortly after he joins the freeway on his first journey in the brand new vehicle, he turns on the cruise control, and then pops into the back to make a cup of tea! Of course, the story is just an urban myth, there's no record that this actually happened. But when I was first told the story, it was hard not to believe that it actually happened, I mean you'd sort of want to believe that the story just had to be true!
However, if anyone else knows otherwise ................
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waysider
Light Through An Eastern Window
Chapter 8
"Plants and Trees"
Page 100
"I have seen the clever little pieces of jewelry which were made with mustard seeds, and I wish to say that the seeds of the East are really about one-tenth of the size of the ones which grow in America and Europe. They are truly the smallest of seeds and the plants they produce grow as large as trees. I want to verify that fact, since I fear that Westerners may visualize a small shrub when they read this verse.
This mustard seed represents Spirit which we receive into ourselves when we believe.-------------This speck of Spirit is ours to nourish and cause to grow until we indeed flourish like the mustard plant which rises up into a tree so large that the birds nest in it!"
Hmmmm?
Is there a botanist in the house?
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johnj
There are many urban legends regarding Bible verses. Another myth is the idea that "camel thru the eye of a needle" refers to a short door in a wall that a camel had to crawl through. Not true. Jesus was using hyperbole to say that riches don't get people into heaven and riches are not a sign that a person is righteous and being blessed by God. This is apparent from the reaction of the disciples, "who then can be saved?" That's the right reaction, because no one can be saved by their works, only by grace.
Legends I think arise in sermons and Bible teachings. People (with good intentions) spin a yarn or repeat a yarn they've heard to try to explain a verse that is hard to understand or to accept. If the disciples in the above story had done this, they would have instead said not "who can be saved, " but "oh yea, anyone who lowers himself like a camel and humbles himself on his knees can make it." Not the right answer, but easier for humans to accept.
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Ham
The version I heard was that the "rich man" had to be "unloaded" to make it..
i.e. shed the wealth..
Pretty noble and pious sounding, as long as you're not the guy with the money..
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WhiteDove
I believe that he was referring to a necklace where they put a seed into a little sealed ball or a glass holder of some sort not actually making the jewelry itself of the seed.
here
Some info on mustard seed
Here
Lightfoot also confirmed this information in his commentaries he said the enormous growth was because of the climate there.
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WordWolf
*does a search*
Ok, my preliminary search seems to confirm what was stated-
that the mustard plant in question grows and becomes a tall garden plant.
The impression that it makes a "tree" that can support birds, however, is incorrect.
It can SHADE birds that aren't IN the plant.
It can RESEMBLE a tree.
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waysider
The point I'm trying to convey here is not whether mustard grew as big as a tree in biblical times or whether the parable is accurate.
The point I'm making is that Pillai is implying that he, himself, in the twentieth century, observed mustard plants of these tree-like proportions and said he wanted to make it clear to "Westerners" that this plant is capable of growing well beyond the size of what would be considered a large shrub.
Did he actually see these plants growing in this day and time as he says he did?
(Forget, for a moment, about the Biblical aspect of the issue.)
That, in my opinion, is the question that has bearing on his credibility.
Also, notice that in the second paragraph, he(Pillai) expresses his belief regarding "the spark of the divine" as it is commonly called.
VPW was adamant in his teaching that "Christ in you" is the total package, not a "speck" or "spark" to be stoked like a fire until it erupted into a full fledged fire. Yet, at the same time, he(VPW) taught that the spirit in the believer had to be nurtured via speaking in tongues daily to become spiritually strong.
So, out of one side of his mouth he scoffs at the "spark" idea while promoting it out of the other side of his mouth.
Has anyone here been to the Holy Lands and seen these tree sized mustard plants that Pillai says he saw?
( Not talking about Bible times, talking about in the twentieth century.)
If they do exist, surely someone else must have seen them.
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WhiteDove
It appears that the plants are around today and grow to the height mentioned in the link I posted earlier. I have never seen one and I can't say if Pillai ever saw one,but I have no reason to think he did not ,as it does not seem out of the realm of everyday things like seeing corn grow in the midwest. It's not like it was some unbelievable event. The seeds are commonly used in Indian cuisine, so it should not be a rare thing to see ,why would you think that he would have not seen one?
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waysider
I have personally never seen mustard other than the type grown in the common garden.
That certainly does not mean other types don't exist.
It's not relevant whether they existed in Biblical times because Pillai's experience and comment encompasses the twentieth century, which is when he supposedly saw them growing.
I am merely saying that if he did see these plants growing in modern times, his claim to have seen them would be a simple observation of fact.
As such, it would seem there should be others who could also say" Yes, I've seen this plant too and it fits Pillai's description."
Who knows?
Maybe a hundred people will come forth immediately and validate his claim.
That would be great, in my opinion.
On the other hand, if no one at all comes forth, it still doesn't negate his claim.
GSC is by no means a cross section representative sampling of the general populace.
Mustard is an annual.
It only grows for one season.(as far as I know)
Trees and shrubs are woody plants and as such grow for multiple seasons, thus allowing for greater ultimate size.
Still, it would be nice if someone with knowledge in the botany field could comment on an academic level regarding current forms of mustard or plants that are called mustard.
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doojable
I found this:
Here's the site: Mustard Tree - scroll to near the bottom of the page
The answer in not conclusive - but at least it is handled honestly.
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WordWolf
BTW,
based on the book "The Aramaic Origin of the Four Gospels",
and the explanation they gave on the "rope" "camel" business,
I'm inclined to think that Lamsa's rendering,
"ROPE through the eye of a needle" is the correct one.
I examined the 2 words as rendered in Aramaic-for "rope" and "camel",
and was unable to see the difference between them.
Whether or not it was "rope" or "camel", however, the meaning is the same.
Jesus spoke a metaphor describing an impossible act.
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