When I read the "nice stories" I don't hate them, but I do bristle. Why? I had some idyllic moments. I had those times when I felt that I finally had seen what true Christianity should look and feel like. Yet that nagging voice inside keeps asking: "WHY do these nice stories make my stomach do flip-flops?"
I finally realized that these good times were the motivation for me to look past the BS I encountered in days to come.
It seems to me the point of this site is largely to point out those CULT like aspects that made TWI different than your average ups and downs life experience. So when you read just a few of the stories, it is hard to set them in the framework of the isolated cult life we lived back then.
Perhaps every poster and even every post needs to be marked as to its setting. First it would be good to know when or if the person got out of TWI. Two years and twenty years is a big difference. Then if it is a positive story about TWI days, is it something positive brought about by TWI, or that happened despite the oppressiveness of servitude in the cult.
I don't think I ever got the ruby slippers (ruby is not my color anyway), but the vision was alluring. Some of the communal aspects were interesting, health food ideas not so bad, school of the prophets theory ... but the reality was heavy handed authority where people were manipulated for a few people's personal gain.
So those that relish the good times, I suppose that is not so bad. But hopefully they are fully aware of the cult aspects that made TWI so devastating to so many. Any revisionist history that glosses over that is insulting to those that were harmed.
I sometimes look at it from the "what was I thinking" view, but the "what would have made it work" view is thought provoking as well. Then there is the "I want to unload on those effers" type posts, set against the "sheet happens, forget about it, move on" types.
But yeah, there is value in looking back at what for many of us was a decade of living some existential (?) utopian dream. After we get over it emotionally, there may be value in looking at what fooled us into getting in and staying so long. Maybe there is even value in looking at the positive aspects that we envisioned but that were pushed aside by "tyranny".
Or there is the value of just reminiscing with old acquaintances. But I agree there can be some richness in a civil discourse about those times.
Some of the value I see in the civil public discourse of our combined experiences lies in the realization at how many of my decisions over the past 14 or so years in my life were directly influenced by lingering aspects of twi. Insidious, that is what cult thinking is, insidious. It seeps into your mind and life like water in a sponge and every little bit of pressure for good or ill it comes oozing out all over the place. And the really horrifying thing is that one can never quite get that sponge clean again.
But it is wonderful to have other sponges to chat with about it all.
Some of the value I see in the civil public discourse of our combined experiences lies in the realization at how many of my decisions over the past 14 or so years in my life were directly influenced by lingering aspects of twi. Insidious, that is what cult thinking is, insidious.
That is true, but I'm really not yet clear how much of our "corrupted" decision making process can be laid on TWI. How do you break out what part was part of our nature pre-TWI, and perhaps that pre existing weakness is what opened me up to the TWI invasion into my brain.
And how much difference is there between TWI and the more hard core Baptist church? Certainly TWI had more of the cult aspect than most, but in looking around the real world, it seems most people are subject to powers around them. It might be the boss or spouse or parent or child or church. Control of others happens frequently.
Regardless of VP's original intent, whether pure or pure evil, there was a lot of the good stuff, that doojable noted. It was the willingness of "leaders" to overlook the bad stuff that really compromised the organization. Or perhaps it was the intent from the start, to lure people with Bible talk, only to use them.
But I am looking at the 20-30 years ago TWI ... they seem to have grown into a more vicious and calculating group after that. It seems they became more of a big head barking orders, than a body working together.
Anyway .. TWI was willing to chew people up and spit them out when they were done with them. But there is a whole world out there not unlike that. Is it just the pretense of being a charitable organization that makes them more evil?
That is true, but I'm really not yet clear how much of our "corrupted" decision making process can be laid on TWI. How do you break out what part was part of our nature pre-TWI, and perhaps that pre existing weakness is what opened me up to the TWI invasion into my brain.
I wasn't referring so much to "corrupt" decision making as much as I was referring to decisions made or based upon false or incorrect teaching. Such as believing = recieving.
Your other observations concerning twi are IMHO correct as well.
I'm really not yet clear how much of our "corrupted" decision making process can be laid on TWI. How do you break out what part was part of our nature pre-TWI, and perhaps that pre existing weakness is what opened me up to the TWI invasion into my brain.
We all had something that attracted us to TWI.
Somebody relayed to me what another Greasespotter had said to her long ago: "TWI was like Miraclegro on our personality faults" or something like that. That just about sums it up.
If something is overgrown, it needs pruning. Lovingly. We can learn to prune out our more unpleasant behavior. We can start by pruning some of our posts before we hit the Add Reply button.
Would be interesting to consider why it wasn't also Miraclegro on our good bits (well, perhaps it was for some of us, at least in some areas) but everything "negative" was shoved under the carpet.
I recall when asking for some help/need - some emotional wrangle I was in, can't remember the details, too long ago - that it was the squeaky wheel that got the attention and we should aim not to be squeaky wheels. Real helpful, that was. Not that the squeak could be oiled, but that we shouldn't be "squeaking" or needy in any way.
From EyesOpen -
...that is what cult thinking is, insidious. It seeps into your mind and life like water in a sponge and every little bit of pressure for good or ill it comes oozing out all over the place.
It does appear under pressure, doesn't it?! Still, enough pressure and all that thinking should eventually be squeezed out. Can't agree with you, Eyes, that you can't get the sponge clean again, just needs lots of washing (with the Word perhaps, but not with Da Verd).
thank you, dooj. your post is very enlightening! I think that's why I get sick to my stomach when I try to remember good times in twi: because they always preceded someone's heart getting broken and trust being violated. good times built closeness with people, and closeness meant they could hurt you... and hurt you they did.
Twinky, the irony!!! before I left twi, I ran into an old FC who got on my case about divorcing my ex, like, why didn't I go to them for help? I pointed out that I did... they said I shoulda kept coming back because the squeaky wheel gets the grease...
riiiiiiiiiiggggggghhhhhhhht.
the fact is, the squeaky wife wheel gets lectured on why it was her fault. wtf.
It seems they became more of a big head barking orders, than a body working together.
That is more of the beauty of civil public discourse. We can work together and share it all, thus severing the barking head and working together. It may be it to work out some aspect of life (past or present,) or to play a game, share music, or debate the end of the world because of the current administration - whoever it may belong to. ;)
Or maybe dooj said it all :)
Nah...
Oh and Bluze - I just added to what you and Groucho started... so high fives all around are in order, I'd say.
thank you, dooj. your post is very enlightening! I think that's why I get sick to my stomach when I try to remember good times in twi: because they always preceded someone's heart getting broken and trust being violated. good times built closeness with people, and closeness meant they could hurt you... and hurt you they did.
Potato,
I'm sorry that you had to go through all that. I'd have to say that friends and closeness and trust kept me in TWI - but for different reasons. I didn't want to disappoint them, or lose them, or hurt them by leaving. I didn't want to abandon some of them.
Now is the time to have friends and relationships that aren't toxic.
I'm sorry that you had to go through all that. I'd have to say that friends and closeness and trust kept me in TWI - but for different reasons. I didn't want to disappoint them, or lose them, or hurt them by leaving. I didn't want to abandon some of them.
Now is the time to have friends and relationships that aren't toxic.
It seeps into your mind and life like water in a sponge and every little bit of pressure for good or ill it comes oozing out all over the place. And the really horrifying thing is that one can never quite get that sponge clean again.
But it is wonderful to have other sponges to chat with about it all.
I think the nature of one’s departure from TWI and to what depth the individual drank the Kool-aid comes into play too.
The more viscous, the more personally one was attacked, the more isolated the individual was, how public the dressing down was, how much one bought into TWI being the only ministry with the truth and where The Word was, and how much loyalty the individual had to TWI as an organization helped determine how devastated the individual was once they were given the bums rush and kicked out.
If one had their whole life pegged around TWI and made a commitment of their life to the Way Corps, and then was told essentially they were a failure to God, to themselves, to the ministry, and with no mercy and no pardon was then stripped of their position, slandered and humiliated publicly and with their peers, then was cast aside to sort it out by themselves or were subject to the scarlet letter treatment by all their former friends and leaders…then I would say it might be harder to just get over it, one might never get over it….that is until they get to Greasespot and take the red pill……
I see Greasespot as sort of a rehab for a lot of people, the informal discussions we can have about our past might help restore many for the future. To censure those who are recovering would not be supportive in our little “group therapy”, those who would say get over it, or lets just talk about the good times, would be “blocking”, and not contributing to good sharing. Any good rehab will always bring up the past and take the skeletons out of the closet.
The more viscous, the more personally one was attacked, the more isolated the individual was, how public the dressing down was, how much one bought into TWI being the only ministry with the truth and where The Word was, and how much loyalty the individual had to TWI as an organization helped determine how devastated the individual was once they were given the bums rush and kicked out.
If one had their whole life pegged around TWI and made a commitment of their life to the Way Corps, and then was told essentially they were a failure to God, to themselves, to the ministry, and with no mercy and no pardon was then stripped of their position, slandered and humiliated publicly and with their peers, then was cast aside to sort it out by themselves or were subject to the scarlet letter treatment by all their former friends and leaders…then I would say it might be harder to just get over it, one might never get over it….that is until they get to Greasespot and take the red pill……
I see Greasespot as sort of a rehab for a lot of people, the informal discussions we can have about our past might help restore many for the future. To censure those who are recovering would not be supportive in our little “group therapy”, those who would say get over it, or lets just talk about the good times, would be “blocking”, and not contributing to good sharing. Any good rehab will always bring up the past and take the skeletons out of the closet.
That was me. I was a fool. I was completely desolate when they kicked me out. I had no-one and no thing. "Burn your bridges," my CC said. So I did. Homeless, friendless, very little money, no career prospects (had given up a professional career), vilely besmeared by certain people - WTF?
I was told to come back in six months, so I went back, grovelling, only to face a barrage of more of the same, in fact, including further false allegations. If I felt gruesome to start with, this magnified it.
Caring? Compassion?? (SCREAM!!!!!)
It was GSC that opened my eyes to the assault on me as a pattern most often against women. And began to restore some of my crushed self-esteem.
The haranguing here frightens me a bit (too reminiscent of old times, still dealing with some aspects of that) but it's great to be able to shrug it off. At least I can take off and not read such threads any more. Please bicker politely!
Once again, Doojable demonstrates great wisdom and understanding.
I guess it's not a secret how (or rather who) first got me involved with TWI. Because of that same wisdom and understanding, in the very beginning, my family and I were treated to a wonderful experience which I tried to find again for the next 15 years but to no avail. It was a once in a lifetime experience which I will always treasure, and what TWI would, could and should have been had they been the real deal.
I was never treated all that badly...mostly because something occurred during my WOW year that affected things for the next couple of years, and as a result, I never allowed myself to be vulnerable again and always stayed fairly close to the exit sign, but I saw plenty of tears shed and hurt people, never really understanding what was happening...or maybe just not wanting to recognize it...always thinking that original experience might be duplicated just around the next bend.
I'll never discount or challenge the veracity of ANYTHING anyone says regarding their experience there. I think everyone's experience has merit and should be shared as people see fit. We can all learn from these experiences.
To quote another wonderful friend, my time there was the best thing I ever did and it was the worst thing I ever did. Had I never gotten involved, I'd never have met the people here and made all the great friends I have here.
There was the best thing I ever did and it was the worst thing I ever did. Had I never gotten involved, I'd never have met the people here and made all the great friends I have here.
Echoed. I met some of the most wonderful people and I met some of the most vile people in TWI.
The GSC started up as a continuation of Waydale when it closed down...I believe the original purpose for both of these sites was to reveal the "other side" of twi, exposing them as a harmful cult.
...Over time, it took on a secondary purpose...it became a social gathering place.
One of the differences between the GSC and twi is that twi will not allow dissenting voices to be heard. The GSC allows for differing opinions to be posted and honest debates to take place...problems arise when personal attacks arise...NOT when there are differing opinions.
The value of civil public discourse?...I could probably go on and on about personal freedom and individuality versus groupthink...it's important that people can express their own ideas openly...as long as they keep it "civil"...I think that a person should expect to be treated respectfully and should treat others likewise...but I am also of the opinion that if you are entering into a debate, you should not have thin skin when someone disagrees with you...
Now you're talking! Put food in my mouth and I'll concede almost any argument. At least until I finish chewing.
If one had their whole life pegged around TWI and made a commitment of their life to the Way Corps, and then was told essentially they were a failure to God, to themselves, to the ministry, and with no mercy and no pardon was then stripped of their position, slandered and humiliated publicly and with their peers, then was cast aside to sort it out by themselves or were subject to the scarlet letter treatment by all their former friends and leaders…then I would say it might be harder to just get over it, one might never get over it….that is until they get to Greasespot and take the red pill……
This is where I was at...then I took the red pill and so much of the self condemnation and self incrimination evaporated. I didn't know that I had problems to deal with until I saw the error for myself. You know this stuff pops up when under pressure because, as any good cop will tell you, a person reacts under pressure as they have been trained to react. They don't have time to think, they will do exactly what they were taught and what they trained to do. To change how you react you need to retrain yourself and practice the retraining until it becomes the "default".
I'll go back to my biscuits and gravy now...is there going to be seconds? Hey Twinky are you going to eat that biscuit or watch it grow mold?
To quote another wonderful friend, my time there was the best thing I ever did and it was the worst thing I ever did. Had I never gotten involved, I'd never have met the people here and made all the great friends I have here.
This corresponds with "The good times don't erase the bad, and the bad times don't erase the good"
The "bad" folks usually did the bad things and visa-versa.
Life itself is like a building. The foundation is not the only important part of the building. Each floor of the structure directly affects what comes after it. If we were to chuck all of the bad times and only live in a rose colored world, our life, our building would be all rose colored windows, easily broken and relatively distorted in its view. Conversely if we discard all of the good times our building would be a windowless dark, and forboding structure. All damage to this structure would occure within the walls.
To be balanced we actually need some of the bad things (at least to percieve them) to help us survive in this world as a healthy individual. I don't think that this is what God had in mind originally, but it is what it is.
The GSC started up as a continuation of Waydale when it closed down...I believe the original purpose for both of these sites was to reveal the "other side" of twi, exposing them as a harmful cult.
...Over time, it took on a secondary purpose...it became a social gathering place.
One of the differences between the GSC and twi is that twi will not allow dissenting voices to be heard. The GSC allows for differing opinions to be posted and honest debates to take place...problems arise when personal attacks arise...NOT when there are differing opinions.
The value of civil public discourse?...I could probably go on and on about personal freedom and individuality versus groupthink...it's important that people can express their own ideas openly...as long as they keep it "civil"...I think that a person should expect to be treated respectfully and should treat others likewise...but I am also of the opinion that if you are entering into a debate, you should not have thin skin when someone disagrees with you...
...disagreement should also be expected.
Good point, Groucho.
I remember when I'd go to twig (this was more in the middle and later years) and we never seemed to actually KNOW each other.
It was always this vapid banter...
Hi, How are ya?
I'm great and really blessed!
Great, and so am I!
Did you hear that last tape?
Oh yes! The Word is really great!
Oh yes, and Doctor was so dynamic!
Oh yes, what a wonderful heart for the Word!
Oh yes, and how about those singers?
Oh yes, they have wonderful hearts for the word, too!
Well, after the teaching, let's all enjoy a movie on that high quality Betamax machine we bought.
WONDERFUL idea! It sure is high quality. Doctor was sure right!
and blah, blah, blah....
Anyone remember? It was rare that I ever actually got past people's facades and got to really know them on a deeper level, although it happpened.
It kinda reminds me of an old episode of Star Trek where Kirk and the gang landed on a planet dominated by something called "Landru"...
Are you of the body?
Yes and bless you...
Maybe many of us are making up for lost time in getting to REALLY know each other in the context of REAL LIFE.
In the ticks and tacks forum, I much prefer the discourse that goes on between folks than how it was before.
Can you imagine...
Hi, Rocky, Garth and Groucho, How are ya?
I'm great and really blessed!
Great, and so am I!
Did you hear that last tape?
etc. etc. etc.
NOW, I know who they are and have a reason to like, enjoy and respect them.
I see Greasespot as sort of a rehab for a lot of people, the informal discussions we can have about our past might help restore many for the future. To censure those who are recovering would not be supportive in our little “group therapy”, those who would say get over it, or lets just talk about the good times, would be “blocking”, and not contributing to good sharing. Any good rehab will always bring up the past and take the skeletons out of the closet.
Very good point. It is rehab for many. Before I posted here I read things that were healing and helpful. And funny, like "you know you're in a cult if.." that really cracked me up and laughter is the best medicine.
I believe most leaders in twi were very fearful to have honest conversations. They avoided it all costs.
Tried to make it seem like you were having a renewed mind problem for wanting to even discuss something that had occured. Saying things like "What's the profit?" As if you were wasting your time and theirs with something "negative". Like they had such a spiritually renewed mind and you did not.
Turning it around on you.
But then acknowledgement may lead to accountability and some of them couldn't fathom owning their behavior. When there was no choice but to acknowledge something within the twi, they still tried to control it. Like when those tapes came out telling us about Craig affairs and then resignation etc...We had no idea when we arrived that we would be listening to that. We all sat around the table and listened to the tape. Then we were all given two minutes to share about what we thought. No warning, no time to let it sink in, no time to think. For a group of people who wouldn't dare criticise the MOG. So we all basically said how much we loved him and made excuses for him. Blaming all the spiritual pressure he was under. The other tapes that followed was pretty much the same drill. We all got two minutes to deal with it. Then it was never to be brought up again. One leader even said "don't expect any apologies." That was all the respect we were given for having been loyal to this man and then having the rug pulled out from under us.
I remeber telling my roommate later that I wished I had said something in my two minutes that was honest, showed some anger. But it took me a long time to feel free enough to do that. Too much fear of reprisal. I'm very thankful that GS is here for people. It's OK to talk about things and necessary. It's just history. No need to be afraid of it unless we let it repeat in our own lives. Thanks for the rehab.
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Tom Strange
excellent post!
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Rocky
I second the motion.
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rhino
It seems to me the point of this site is largely to point out those CULT like aspects that made TWI different than your average ups and downs life experience. So when you read just a few of the stories, it is hard to set them in the framework of the isolated cult life we lived back then.
Perhaps every poster and even every post needs to be marked as to its setting. First it would be good to know when or if the person got out of TWI. Two years and twenty years is a big difference. Then if it is a positive story about TWI days, is it something positive brought about by TWI, or that happened despite the oppressiveness of servitude in the cult.
I don't think I ever got the ruby slippers (ruby is not my color anyway), but the vision was alluring. Some of the communal aspects were interesting, health food ideas not so bad, school of the prophets theory ... but the reality was heavy handed authority where people were manipulated for a few people's personal gain.
So those that relish the good times, I suppose that is not so bad. But hopefully they are fully aware of the cult aspects that made TWI so devastating to so many. Any revisionist history that glosses over that is insulting to those that were harmed.
I sometimes look at it from the "what was I thinking" view, but the "what would have made it work" view is thought provoking as well. Then there is the "I want to unload on those effers" type posts, set against the "sheet happens, forget about it, move on" types.
But yeah, there is value in looking back at what for many of us was a decade of living some existential (?) utopian dream. After we get over it emotionally, there may be value in looking at what fooled us into getting in and staying so long. Maybe there is even value in looking at the positive aspects that we envisioned but that were pushed aside by "tyranny".
Or there is the value of just reminiscing with old acquaintances. But I agree there can be some richness in a civil discourse about those times.
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tonto
Dooj, that was awesome!
(And rhino, yours was not too shabby either!)
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Eyesopen
I agree! Well done!
Some of the value I see in the civil public discourse of our combined experiences lies in the realization at how many of my decisions over the past 14 or so years in my life were directly influenced by lingering aspects of twi. Insidious, that is what cult thinking is, insidious. It seeps into your mind and life like water in a sponge and every little bit of pressure for good or ill it comes oozing out all over the place. And the really horrifying thing is that one can never quite get that sponge clean again.
But it is wonderful to have other sponges to chat with about it all.
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rhino
That is true, but I'm really not yet clear how much of our "corrupted" decision making process can be laid on TWI. How do you break out what part was part of our nature pre-TWI, and perhaps that pre existing weakness is what opened me up to the TWI invasion into my brain.
And how much difference is there between TWI and the more hard core Baptist church? Certainly TWI had more of the cult aspect than most, but in looking around the real world, it seems most people are subject to powers around them. It might be the boss or spouse or parent or child or church. Control of others happens frequently.
Regardless of VP's original intent, whether pure or pure evil, there was a lot of the good stuff, that doojable noted. It was the willingness of "leaders" to overlook the bad stuff that really compromised the organization. Or perhaps it was the intent from the start, to lure people with Bible talk, only to use them.
But I am looking at the 20-30 years ago TWI ... they seem to have grown into a more vicious and calculating group after that. It seems they became more of a big head barking orders, than a body working together.
Anyway .. TWI was willing to chew people up and spit them out when they were done with them. But there is a whole world out there not unlike that. Is it just the pretense of being a charitable organization that makes them more evil?
Or maybe dooj said it all :)
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Eyesopen
I wasn't referring so much to "corrupt" decision making as much as I was referring to decisions made or based upon false or incorrect teaching. Such as believing = recieving.
Your other observations concerning twi are IMHO correct as well.
But ultimately...
...you are correct with this one for sure!
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Twinky
We all had something that attracted us to TWI.
Somebody relayed to me what another Greasespotter had said to her long ago: "TWI was like Miraclegro on our personality faults" or something like that. That just about sums it up.
If something is overgrown, it needs pruning. Lovingly. We can learn to prune out our more unpleasant behavior. We can start by pruning some of our posts before we hit the Add Reply button.
Would be interesting to consider why it wasn't also Miraclegro on our good bits (well, perhaps it was for some of us, at least in some areas) but everything "negative" was shoved under the carpet.
I recall when asking for some help/need - some emotional wrangle I was in, can't remember the details, too long ago - that it was the squeaky wheel that got the attention and we should aim not to be squeaky wheels. Real helpful, that was. Not that the squeak could be oiled, but that we shouldn't be "squeaking" or needy in any way.
It does appear under pressure, doesn't it?! Still, enough pressure and all that thinking should eventually be squeezed out. Can't agree with you, Eyes, that you can't get the sponge clean again, just needs lots of washing (with the Word perhaps, but not with Da Verd).
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potato
thank you, dooj. your post is very enlightening! I think that's why I get sick to my stomach when I try to remember good times in twi: because they always preceded someone's heart getting broken and trust being violated. good times built closeness with people, and closeness meant they could hurt you... and hurt you they did.
Twinky, the irony!!! before I left twi, I ran into an old FC who got on my case about divorcing my ex, like, why didn't I go to them for help? I pointed out that I did... they said I shoulda kept coming back because the squeaky wheel gets the grease...
riiiiiiiiiiggggggghhhhhhhht.
the fact is, the squeaky wife wheel gets lectured on why it was her fault. wtf.
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Bluzeman
Thank you for that post doojable. Wonderful!
Rick
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doojable
Awwwwww... don't get all mushy on me guys...
That is more of the beauty of civil public discourse. We can work together and share it all, thus severing the barking
head and working together. It may be it to work out some aspect of life (past or present,) or to play a game, share music, or debate the end of the world because of the current administration - whoever it may belong to. ;)
Nah...
Oh and Bluze - I just added to what you and Groucho started... so high fives all around are in order, I'd say.
Okay... biscuits and gravy for everyone.
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doojable
Potato,
I'm sorry that you had to go through all that. I'd have to say that friends and closeness and trust kept me in TWI - but for different reasons. I didn't want to disappoint them, or lose them, or hurt them by leaving. I didn't want to abandon some of them.
Now is the time to have friends and relationships that aren't toxic.
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potato
amen, dooj, amen!
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now I see
I think the nature of one’s departure from TWI and to what depth the individual drank the Kool-aid comes into play too.
The more viscous, the more personally one was attacked, the more isolated the individual was, how public the dressing down was, how much one bought into TWI being the only ministry with the truth and where The Word was, and how much loyalty the individual had to TWI as an organization helped determine how devastated the individual was once they were given the bums rush and kicked out.
If one had their whole life pegged around TWI and made a commitment of their life to the Way Corps, and then was told essentially they were a failure to God, to themselves, to the ministry, and with no mercy and no pardon was then stripped of their position, slandered and humiliated publicly and with their peers, then was cast aside to sort it out by themselves or were subject to the scarlet letter treatment by all their former friends and leaders…then I would say it might be harder to just get over it, one might never get over it….that is until they get to Greasespot and take the red pill……
I see Greasespot as sort of a rehab for a lot of people, the informal discussions we can have about our past might help restore many for the future. To censure those who are recovering would not be supportive in our little “group therapy”, those who would say get over it, or lets just talk about the good times, would be “blocking”, and not contributing to good sharing. Any good rehab will always bring up the past and take the skeletons out of the closet.
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Twinky
That was me. I was a fool. I was completely desolate when they kicked me out. I had no-one and no thing. "Burn your bridges," my CC said. So I did. Homeless, friendless, very little money, no career prospects (had given up a professional career), vilely besmeared by certain people - WTF?
I was told to come back in six months, so I went back, grovelling, only to face a barrage of more of the same, in fact, including further false allegations. If I felt gruesome to start with, this magnified it.
Caring? Compassion?? (SCREAM!!!!!)
It was GSC that opened my eyes to the assault on me as a pattern most often against women. And began to restore some of my crushed self-esteem.
The haranguing here frightens me a bit (too reminiscent of old times, still dealing with some aspects of that) but it's great to be able to shrug it off. At least I can take off and not read such threads any more. Please bicker politely!
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Ron G.
Once again, Doojable demonstrates great wisdom and understanding.
I guess it's not a secret how (or rather who) first got me involved with TWI. Because of that same wisdom and understanding, in the very beginning, my family and I were treated to a wonderful experience which I tried to find again for the next 15 years but to no avail. It was a once in a lifetime experience which I will always treasure, and what TWI would, could and should have been had they been the real deal.
I was never treated all that badly...mostly because something occurred during my WOW year that affected things for the next couple of years, and as a result, I never allowed myself to be vulnerable again and always stayed fairly close to the exit sign, but I saw plenty of tears shed and hurt people, never really understanding what was happening...or maybe just not wanting to recognize it...always thinking that original experience might be duplicated just around the next bend.
I'll never discount or challenge the veracity of ANYTHING anyone says regarding their experience there. I think everyone's experience has merit and should be shared as people see fit. We can all learn from these experiences.
To quote another wonderful friend, my time there was the best thing I ever did and it was the worst thing I ever did. Had I never gotten involved, I'd never have met the people here and made all the great friends I have here.
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Twinky
Echoed. I met some of the most wonderful people and I met some of the most vile people in TWI.
"When they were good, they were very very good
And when they were bad they were horrid"
To plagiarize a nursery rhyme.
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GrouchoMarxJr
The GSC started up as a continuation of Waydale when it closed down...I believe the original purpose for both of these sites was to reveal the "other side" of twi, exposing them as a harmful cult.
...Over time, it took on a secondary purpose...it became a social gathering place.
One of the differences between the GSC and twi is that twi will not allow dissenting voices to be heard. The GSC allows for differing opinions to be posted and honest debates to take place...problems arise when personal attacks arise...NOT when there are differing opinions.
The value of civil public discourse?...I could probably go on and on about personal freedom and individuality versus groupthink...it's important that people can express their own ideas openly...as long as they keep it "civil"...I think that a person should expect to be treated respectfully and should treat others likewise...but I am also of the opinion that if you are entering into a debate, you should not have thin skin when someone disagrees with you...
...disagreement should also be expected.
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J0nny Ling0
Conversely, the abuse doesn't erase the good times, for me. It hasn't and it won't, ever.
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doojable
Of course not.
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Eyesopen
Now you're talking! Put food in my mouth and I'll concede almost any argument. At least until I finish chewing.
This is where I was at...then I took the red pill and so much of the self condemnation and self incrimination evaporated. I didn't know that I had problems to deal with until I saw the error for myself. You know this stuff pops up when under pressure because, as any good cop will tell you, a person reacts under pressure as they have been trained to react. They don't have time to think, they will do exactly what they were taught and what they trained to do. To change how you react you need to retrain yourself and practice the retraining until it becomes the "default".
I'll go back to my biscuits and gravy now...is there going to be seconds? Hey Twinky are you going to eat that biscuit or watch it grow mold?
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Eyesopen
This corresponds with "The good times don't erase the bad, and the bad times don't erase the good"
The "bad" folks usually did the bad things and visa-versa.
Life itself is like a building. The foundation is not the only important part of the building. Each floor of the structure directly affects what comes after it. If we were to chuck all of the bad times and only live in a rose colored world, our life, our building would be all rose colored windows, easily broken and relatively distorted in its view. Conversely if we discard all of the good times our building would be a windowless dark, and forboding structure. All damage to this structure would occure within the walls.
To be balanced we actually need some of the bad things (at least to percieve them) to help us survive in this world as a healthy individual. I don't think that this is what God had in mind originally, but it is what it is.
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Ron G.
Good point, Groucho.
I remember when I'd go to twig (this was more in the middle and later years) and we never seemed to actually KNOW each other.
It was always this vapid banter...
Hi, How are ya?
I'm great and really blessed!
Great, and so am I!
Did you hear that last tape?
Oh yes! The Word is really great!
Oh yes, and Doctor was so dynamic!
Oh yes, what a wonderful heart for the Word!
Oh yes, and how about those singers?
Oh yes, they have wonderful hearts for the word, too!
Well, after the teaching, let's all enjoy a movie on that high quality Betamax machine we bought.
WONDERFUL idea! It sure is high quality. Doctor was sure right!
and blah, blah, blah....
Anyone remember? It was rare that I ever actually got past people's facades and got to really know them on a deeper level, although it happpened.
It kinda reminds me of an old episode of Star Trek where Kirk and the gang landed on a planet dominated by something called "Landru"...
Are you of the body?
Yes and bless you...
Maybe many of us are making up for lost time in getting to REALLY know each other in the context of REAL LIFE.
In the ticks and tacks forum, I much prefer the discourse that goes on between folks than how it was before.
Can you imagine...
Hi, Rocky, Garth and Groucho, How are ya?
I'm great and really blessed!
Great, and so am I!
Did you hear that last tape?
etc. etc. etc.
NOW, I know who they are and have a reason to like, enjoy and respect them.
I'm really glad for that social aspect of GSC.
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happyheart
Very good point. It is rehab for many. Before I posted here I read things that were healing and helpful. And funny, like "you know you're in a cult if.." that really cracked me up and laughter is the best medicine.
I believe most leaders in twi were very fearful to have honest conversations. They avoided it all costs.
Tried to make it seem like you were having a renewed mind problem for wanting to even discuss something that had occured. Saying things like "What's the profit?" As if you were wasting your time and theirs with something "negative". Like they had such a spiritually renewed mind and you did not.
Turning it around on you.
But then acknowledgement may lead to accountability and some of them couldn't fathom owning their behavior. When there was no choice but to acknowledge something within the twi, they still tried to control it. Like when those tapes came out telling us about Craig affairs and then resignation etc...We had no idea when we arrived that we would be listening to that. We all sat around the table and listened to the tape. Then we were all given two minutes to share about what we thought. No warning, no time to let it sink in, no time to think. For a group of people who wouldn't dare criticise the MOG. So we all basically said how much we loved him and made excuses for him. Blaming all the spiritual pressure he was under. The other tapes that followed was pretty much the same drill. We all got two minutes to deal with it. Then it was never to be brought up again. One leader even said "don't expect any apologies." That was all the respect we were given for having been loyal to this man and then having the rug pulled out from under us.
I remeber telling my roommate later that I wished I had said something in my two minutes that was honest, showed some anger. But it took me a long time to feel free enough to do that. Too much fear of reprisal. I'm very thankful that GS is here for people. It's OK to talk about things and necessary. It's just history. No need to be afraid of it unless we let it repeat in our own lives. Thanks for the rehab.
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