Sorry to hear you say that Vickles. Sounds though, as if yo may have hit upon some hard times? I hope it gets better. Whenever I ponder His existence, I look at the beauty of the Earth and all of the amazing things that makes the whole place operate. And I think; Ya know, when I see a beautiful piece of artwork, like a painting, I think that not only is the painting beautiful to gaze upon, but also I think; The artist behind this work has an amazing skill! When I hear music that I like, not only do I enjoy the sound of it, but I also revere the artist who created that music, played it, and made it so that I could listen to what had come out of her/his heart.
And so, likewise with this pretty blue world that we live in and on. When is see the gorgeous pastels of a crimson sunset, I am in awe as it changes before my very eyes, from one splendid color to the next, I think man, The Artist here behind all of this is incredible! When I think of how millions of salmon, swimming around in the ocean over in the Sea of Japan, all of the sudden decide at the same time; "Time to go back to that tiny creek in Alaska"! And they all begin their Return to their home streams. And I think of the Master Artist who put it all together. And then of course, there is that sun and the moon and the stars, and how they effect our planet, giving us light, and warmth, and tides. And that night sky with a bazzillion sparkling jewels scattered across the deep black like diamonds, always reminds me that there definitely is an Artist.
And I think of Psalms 104, which talks about His Creation...
I hope things in your world are good or get better... :)
Yeah, I don't know about you, but the inconsistencies, the bizarre "miracles" and signs that I guess Christians are supposed to accept, and the overall foolishness of it all eventually got to me.
I'm not saying that there is no God, I couldn't prove that one way or the other. But the God of the Bible is certainly nonsense, near as I can tell. And I don't know of any other ones put forth that make any more sense either.
It's not so bad once you get used to it though. It is what it is. No sense getting too worked up about it.
i applaud your courage to start this thread, Vickles
your opening line is simply perfect
I don't think there is such a thing anymore.
cuz oddly enough, contrary to the magic and mythic worldviews that claim ownership of the world's scriptures
it would seem that this no-thing perspective of God is exactly what the saints and sages of the world's wisdom traditions have been discovering and describing for a few millenia now
how, in a very deep sense..."God" is not a thing at all...not an object...
but the clear, invisible, profoundly silent, timeless, unmanifest reality of emptiness, clear light, pure witness, changeless, formless, spaciousness that all objects exist in
extra-ordinary and inescapably obvious and everywhere present ... and the very "substance" of our subjective experience of life
...in this kinda way, eastern spirituality (which all abrahamic traditions are) and western psychology are meeting quite directly and smoothly
...
as ive posted before in doctrinal...it seems we (as individuals and cultures) move (or not) through a spectrum of worldviews..or Godviews, if you will
and a rational objective Godview naturally forms when we reach the limits of our mythic Godview
...such as when we just cant seem to find that darn mythic God anywhere
...which is actually quite perfect...
"it is what it is" is perfect as well
...
but most rational arguments against religion today are only taking a stand against the merely mythic Godview
and usually make the mistake of assuming that the mythic Godview is the only Godview there is
like ive been saying to the crickets around here...there are aspects of mankind (such as worldviews) that develop (or not) through a much broader spectrum
and each new perspective is usually a profound rite of passage...basically a series of small deaths..like shedding another layer of ego
the relationships and interactions between worldviews is not only important and helpful to try and understand for our selves
but perhaps highly valuable for solving wider cultural conflicts
for those who might be interested...i can restart a new thread on the topic in doctrinal
God, gods, goddess, diety, divinity, spirituality...how much can we humans really understand?
It gets to the point, I think, that the more someone attests to the absolute truth of their beliefs, the more they sound like they just don't get it.
I believe we get glimpses--but not all the time, not on demand, and the experience can't be replicated for another, because it is personal, like a thumbprint...though we can try to communicate such things to others.
As above, so below, a saying goes...this physical world reflects the spiritual world. What's happening around you, in your life? Is there a deeper meaning? A truth just for you? A pattern? Chaos?( that is part of life, too.)
Looking within is not without value, as many of us were taught. Sometimes it is the only way to figure some things out to your own satisfaction. Prayer, meditation, contemplation.
And then sometimes you get the greatest answers while folding clothes or taking a walk or some other task that takes no active thought, leaving your thoughts free.
I remember feeling upset with myself at times for unrenewed thinking...but not thinking won't make it go away. And change is scary.
God, gods, goddess, diety, divinity, spirituality...how much can we humans really understand?
It gets to the point, I think, that the more someone attests to the absolute truth of their beliefs, the more they sound like they just don't get it.
I believe we get glimpses--but not all the time, not on demand, and the experience can't be replicated for another, because it is personal, like a thumbprint...though we can try to communicate such things to others.
As above, so below, a saying goes...this physical world reflects the spiritual world. What's happening around you, in your life? Is there a deeper meaning? A truth just for you? A pattern? Chaos?( that is part of life, too.)
Looking within is not without value, as many of us were taught. Sometimes it is the only way to figure some things out to your own satisfaction. Prayer, meditation, contemplation.
And then sometimes you get the greatest answers while folding clothes or taking a walk or some other task that takes no active thought, leaving your thoughts free.
I remember feeling upset with myself at times for unrenewed thinking...but not thinking won't make it go away. And change is scary.
been there too. why do you feel this way?
I don't think there is such a thing anymore. :(
sorry, i've been there too,why do you feel this way today?
I think that the initial thoughts that deviated from TWI doctrine were scary because I spent most of my adult life in TWI with all the beliefs about devil spirit/disaster that befell those who left the truth.
As you know I've been to Greasespot for about 5 years. I've been such a believer of God and thought that I have felt his presence. I'm truly wondering if that was my rose colored glasses playing a trick on my mind or if he is just not showing Himself to me lately. Or maybe if there is one he has decided for me to do this alone for a while as some parents have to with their children.
My whole life and family have been having major downs lately. Life changing downs and I look around and don't see Him.
Jonny and others truly brought tears to my eyes with the words used. But is it just words?
George, I'm wondering if what you say is true if I could handle it with no hope? I've always said I need to have something to look forward to in the long run. So, if I stay on the route of 'I don't believe' I wonder if something good for that hope leaves me? This is what I'm afraid of.
As you know I've been to Greasespot for about 5 years. I've been such a believer of God and thought that I have felt his presence. I'm truly wondering if that was my rose colored glasses playing a trick on my mind or if he is just not showing Himself to me lately. Or maybe if there is one he has decided for me to do this alone for a while as some parents have to with their children.
My whole life and family have been having major downs lately. Life changing downs and I look around and don't see Him.
Jonny and others truly brought tears to my eyes with the words used. But is it just words?
George, I'm wondering if what you say is true if I could handle it with no hope? I've always said I need to have something to look forward to in the long run. So, if I stay on the route of 'I don't believe' I wonder if something good for that hope leaves me? This is what I'm afraid of.
It is the most difficult thing i have EVER experianced,trying to get back to knowing God loves me. God loves you no matter what NO MATTER WHAT,the fact that right now you are wondering that is okay,it doesn't change things,God doesn't change, we all have been thru hell and back with this so called ministry and we have hurts and scars,we will never be the same as we were before twi,but keep the good,you found in friends and toss out the bad,you are a child of God and that doesn't get taken away,although sometimes we feel like orphans and walk alone ,...you can know your Not. all those years i was searching for answers i thought about the people of twi they were like family,i wondered how everyone was,where have they been,i felt like we had been thru a war togethre and we left others behind,i wanted to go back and get those others,it is tormenting knowing someone else is going through the same thing you did. i am not here to preach to anyone i am just here and if you want you can talk to me anytime.
It is the most difficult thing i have EVER experianced,trying to get back to knowing God loves me. God loves you no matter what NO MATTER WHAT,the fact that right now you are wondering that is okay,it doesn't change things,God doesn't change, we all have been thru hell and back with this so called ministry and we have hurts and scars,we will never be the same as we were before twi,but keep the good,you found in friends and toss out the bad,you are a child of God and that doesn't get taken away,although sometimes we feel like orphans and walk alone ,...you can know your Not. all those years i was searching for answers i thought about the people of twi they were like family,i wondered how everyone was,where have they been,i felt like we had been thru a war togethre and we left others behind,i wanted to go back and get those others,it is tormenting knowing someone else is going through the same thing you did. i am not here to preach to anyone i am just here and if you want you can talk to me anytime.
But OKC, I don't think it has anything to do with TWI. That is why I posted in open. I have dealt with the scars of TWI.
I understand the feeling. I've been through some lows and am dealing with one now. I don't understand why it is that sometimes I feel like I can't connect and other times I know beyond a doubt that I've heard His voice and felt His hand on my life. Just hang in there and know he's there. I wish I had all the answers but I know they're out there.
George, I'm wondering if what you say is true if I could handle it with no hope? I've always said I need to have something to look forward to in the long run. So, if I stay on the route of 'I don't believe' I wonder if something good for that hope leaves me? This is what I'm afraid of.
Does not believing in god really mean there is no hope? Hope of what? Hope for getting through today or hope of an eternal tomorrow? Or both? I think one of the biggest things that faith provides for people is a sense of strength... it gives people something bigger than themselves to hang on to when they feel overwhelmed and vulnerable. And it gives them a sense of justice in an often unkind and unfair world. It gives them a reason to push through the bad, because of a promise of good in return.
But if there is no god, then that means you really have the strength within you. A strength that, up until now, you have credited to an outside source. I find that thought empowering rather than depleting. It means I don't have to wish and hope and pray for some outside source to help me through the hard times. I don't have to wonder if I've jumped through all the right hoops and confessed all my sins, or if I'm being 'tested' in this life. I have the confidence and certainty of knowing that I have it within myself to be strong. And I can be pro-active on my own behalf without worrying about breaking some religious rules dictating what I can or cannot ask of god. I find it broadens the opportunities for help and deliverance. And it broadens the opportunities for me to be a good, kind, decent human being. And if there is an afterlife, that seems to me to be the best way to approach it.
There is no way of proving it one way or the other...I tend to agree with Jonny Lingo...when I look at all there is to see, I conclude that there must be a God. I think religions miss it...it's something that needs to be dealt with on a personal level.
but i do not have a butch of restrictions and rules on who or what God is .
it is a very personal thing, but one I believe we can share with others with love.
"believers have throughout history doubted God or if He can do as He promises, this is not something wrong or new to the idea of who we are and who has a say in our life.
the psalms speak of utter hopelessnes for situations and they write as He doesnt hear or care or has left them alone.
for me to not believe isnt possible why? because i did the one thing twi said not to do, I asked God and Jesus Christ to prove to me they are real, and they did . and continue to do so. it is good enough for me.
There is no way of proving it one way or the other...I tend to agree with Jonny Lingo...when I look at all there is to see, I conclude that there must be a God. I think religions miss it...it's something that needs to be dealt with on a personal level.
Yup. I think this is a really good summary of about where I am these days. It's not so much that I don't believe there is a God, I just don't think religions hold the answers, so in many ways I function as if there were no God.
And the God we've been sold simply can't be all-powerful AND all-loving. He'd have to be one or the other, but not both. Otherwise how could you explain a dead baby? You could do what religions do and resort to spin control "God HAD to let that baby die or he wouldn't be a JUST God!" - and other similar meaningless drivel. That sort of crap is probably the biggest thing to put me off of living in believerville. And WayWorld did all sorts of it.
It just doesn't show up on my radar anymore. Why should it? There seems to be nothing I could do to please a being so superior to me, and it certainly doesn't seem like I can curry favor with him in anyway. And there doesn't seem to be any impact on my life no matter what superstition I may hold on to - nor anyone else's - from what I can perceive by my senses.
Isn't that why religions are always so disposed to telling you to disregard your senses? "Yeah, just believe this HOLY writ here. THAT'S got the only REAL answers!" Except it doesn't. It doesn't really answer anything. It just puts your focus on the unperceivable, the intangible, and lets you imagine that you're really tapped in to something much bigger than anyone can fathom.
Great! So superstition feeds your ego and gives you comfort at the same time. I guess that's why folks choose to hang onto it, despite the dearth of ANY real supporting evidence. I prefer my reality without the garnish, TYVM. As Carl Sagan said, I'd rather know a hard truth than be comforted by a pleasant fable.
I do not believe God is bigger than i can "fathom" or understand tho.
and i do not blame Him for dead babies either, as I believe He is a loving God.
Is there dead babies, yes, did God cause it to happen ? no i do not believe so. so im not angry at the idea of a God being mean or without love for me.
I think knowing and believing in God is much 'harder" or difficult than leaving life up to a chance without hope.
Great! So superstition feeds your ego and gives you comfort at the same time. I guess that's why folks choose to hang onto it, despite the dearth of ANY real supporting evidence.
The whole key in this, in my opinion, George, is not to hang on very tightly. Usually something better comes along..
Dunno if I can sense your feeling or not. Even my Spock logic tells me that whether or not there is a God is by no means going to depend on any turns my life takes. But I might have at least a faint feeling at times that making God real in my own life seems too hard at times, or that I've screwed things up too much for Him to work.
I may at times have doubts about these things myself. Can it be enough to make one lose hope? Perhaps. I just have to go on the assumption that somehow God is going to pull things out for me in spite of me. I may not be sure things are going to work out, but I may as well proceed on the assumption that they will with God's help, because it doesnt help me to assume that things will go to complete pot.
If you can find a source of help outside of God from someone here or elsewhere on your own, go for it. I dont know that I can be sure that God is NOT behind any help I get, but of course those who want to go to the mountain top and shout how they were helpd greatly without God are free do do so.
I cant help you much otherwise, except to say i am thinking of you and praying for you. If there is no God, then it is left to just my thoughts, and you know how much bread (or whatever you need) my thoughts are going to put on your table.
Ya know, if you are not sure, try praying anyway. Even if it is just something like "God, if you are out there and real, would you please help me somehow?" If God isn't out there, what have you lost? If He is, well, let's see what follows. Ask Him to show you something.
Get in touch personally with someone you think you can trust to some degree.
One thing I have seen around me at times in my life, and that includes several times on GS, that really really tees me off is when someone tells someone else to "get help" in an obviously derogatory tone. I dont care if it had something to do with a matter that is totally irrelevant to your problem or mine or someone else's. Such frequent use of such a tactic turns people's minds off to asking for help as a POSITIVE step. You know what I mean, like "You fool, get help..." and so forth. I gotta admit it has affected me at times. When someone then makes that suggestion in a genuinely helping effort, it may have the wrong ring to it that is not the fault of the person trying to help.
I don't know you personally, but I certainly know you as a long time GS poster. I may not know your faults, but I bet I know even less about how wonderful you are. And from what you have contributed over the years, I would bet you really are terrific, even if the words would be hollow if I pretended it was from any personal knowledge.
kinda glad this thread got moved to doctrinal...i dont feel as out of place rattling off like i often seem to
to add...
a note in regards to feeling the presence of God, and glimpses of God...
in the fields of consciousness studies and such, as i understand them...there is a distinction being made between what are called "states" and "stages" of consciousness
"states"= just as it sounds...are temporary states of consciousness...usually loosely divided (for the sake of conversation) into waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep....or gross, subtle and causal....which are pretty much the same as the more traditional body soul and spirit...but they are also called many other things, and also full of even finer distinctions...made by those who are really really into such things.
But basically, everyone moves through all states on a daily basis, although we may not recall this, but they are normal, native phases of how we experience existence.
The deeper practices (and crazy accidents) at the heart of most all religious traditions were intended to access and/or give language to the full spectrum of altered states possible in man...thus there are hundreds, if not thousands of terms used...from shekinah to satori, from kensho to I AMness, from the eye of God to the pure Witness, from enlightment to rebirth.
"stages"= established plateaus of consciousness, based on interior structures of "selfhood" and "ego development" and such. This self-constructed position develops sequentially along a spectrum of stages. Western psychologies have been shedding light on these via centuries of rational investigation..often through sentence completion tests and other forms of inquiry and dialogue.
One reason why it is so very important to make the distinction between states and stages, is because we experience all "states" at any "stage," but we interpret "state" experiences according to our "stage."
In other words, if i experience a profound spiritual state of consciousness (such as a period of bodily felt unity with "The Great Cause?") while at a mythic stage of "selfhood," i may interpret the experience as "feeling the presence of God, the Father." But when i am moving into a rational stage, i cannot deny having the previous state/glimpse, but i will certainly be challenged to continue interpretating the experience in the same mythic way. So i might explainit in purely objective terms, maybe involving neurosciences or biology or physics.
of course, my rational modernist interpretation will have its own shelf life ...eventually introducing a worldview that values personal discovery of the meanings of experience above all...a stage that see the limits of rational language.
...which, btw, is the worldview most inclined to object to everything i just wrote about state/stage distinctions...or most any other such distinctions, most likely from mistaking them for merely rational or merely mythic worlviews...which they are not.
But that is another thread, i suppose.
...
another quick point...the stages i have described is a very general description, and only one language-set possible for describing them, and only barely begins to describe the many other radical details and variables of human consciousness.
and in no way do i think the whole of a person can be so easily reduced to stages...such language is merely a limited instrument for measuring a limited scope of consciousness, and not the same as that which is being measured. Much as inches are not the same as the lumber.
and finally...i am not suggesting that these stages are a preexisting reality...which is more of a merely metaphysical position...but that they are essentially organically built as we go along
and finally, apologies if i come across too impersonal...i am no expert, and am mostly just an artist...and what i have written is not only a synthesis and translation of my own understanding, but also of my experience of life. I hope it doesnt come across as being preachy about an absolute position. I am not so good at relating via public writing like this. I relate by offering concepts and possibilities i feel may help.
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J0nny Ling0
Sorry to hear you say that Vickles. Sounds though, as if yo may have hit upon some hard times? I hope it gets better. Whenever I ponder His existence, I look at the beauty of the Earth and all of the amazing things that makes the whole place operate. And I think; Ya know, when I see a beautiful piece of artwork, like a painting, I think that not only is the painting beautiful to gaze upon, but also I think; The artist behind this work has an amazing skill! When I hear music that I like, not only do I enjoy the sound of it, but I also revere the artist who created that music, played it, and made it so that I could listen to what had come out of her/his heart.
And so, likewise with this pretty blue world that we live in and on. When is see the gorgeous pastels of a crimson sunset, I am in awe as it changes before my very eyes, from one splendid color to the next, I think man, The Artist here behind all of this is incredible! When I think of how millions of salmon, swimming around in the ocean over in the Sea of Japan, all of the sudden decide at the same time; "Time to go back to that tiny creek in Alaska"! And they all begin their Return to their home streams. And I think of the Master Artist who put it all together. And then of course, there is that sun and the moon and the stars, and how they effect our planet, giving us light, and warmth, and tides. And that night sky with a bazzillion sparkling jewels scattered across the deep black like diamonds, always reminds me that there definitely is an Artist.
And I think of Psalms 104, which talks about His Creation...
I hope things in your world are good or get better...
:)
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George Aar
Yeah, I don't know about you, but the inconsistencies, the bizarre "miracles" and signs that I guess Christians are supposed to accept, and the overall foolishness of it all eventually got to me.
I'm not saying that there is no God, I couldn't prove that one way or the other. But the God of the Bible is certainly nonsense, near as I can tell. And I don't know of any other ones put forth that make any more sense either.
It's not so bad once you get used to it though. It is what it is. No sense getting too worked up about it.
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sirguessalot
i applaud your courage to start this thread, Vickles
your opening line is simply perfect
cuz oddly enough, contrary to the magic and mythic worldviews that claim ownership of the world's scriptures
it would seem that this no-thing perspective of God is exactly what the saints and sages of the world's wisdom traditions have been discovering and describing for a few millenia now
how, in a very deep sense..."God" is not a thing at all...not an object...
but the clear, invisible, profoundly silent, timeless, unmanifest reality of emptiness, clear light, pure witness, changeless, formless, spaciousness that all objects exist in
extra-ordinary and inescapably obvious and everywhere present ... and the very "substance" of our subjective experience of life
...in this kinda way, eastern spirituality (which all abrahamic traditions are) and western psychology are meeting quite directly and smoothly
...
as ive posted before in doctrinal...it seems we (as individuals and cultures) move (or not) through a spectrum of worldviews..or Godviews, if you will
and a rational objective Godview naturally forms when we reach the limits of our mythic Godview
...such as when we just cant seem to find that darn mythic God anywhere
...which is actually quite perfect...
"it is what it is" is perfect as well
...
but most rational arguments against religion today are only taking a stand against the merely mythic Godview
and usually make the mistake of assuming that the mythic Godview is the only Godview there is
like ive been saying to the crickets around here...there are aspects of mankind (such as worldviews) that develop (or not) through a much broader spectrum
and each new perspective is usually a profound rite of passage...basically a series of small deaths..like shedding another layer of ego
the relationships and interactions between worldviews is not only important and helpful to try and understand for our selves
but perhaps highly valuable for solving wider cultural conflicts
for those who might be interested...i can restart a new thread on the topic in doctrinal
wishing you all grace in your journey Vickles
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J0nny Ling0
Well, I still say that the evidence left behind by the Artist which works to our benefit daily is good enough for me...
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Bramble
God, gods, goddess, diety, divinity, spirituality...how much can we humans really understand?
It gets to the point, I think, that the more someone attests to the absolute truth of their beliefs, the more they sound like they just don't get it.
I believe we get glimpses--but not all the time, not on demand, and the experience can't be replicated for another, because it is personal, like a thumbprint...though we can try to communicate such things to others.
As above, so below, a saying goes...this physical world reflects the spiritual world. What's happening around you, in your life? Is there a deeper meaning? A truth just for you? A pattern? Chaos?( that is part of life, too.)
Looking within is not without value, as many of us were taught. Sometimes it is the only way to figure some things out to your own satisfaction. Prayer, meditation, contemplation.
And then sometimes you get the greatest answers while folding clothes or taking a walk or some other task that takes no active thought, leaving your thoughts free.
I remember feeling upset with myself at times for unrenewed thinking...but not thinking won't make it go away. And change is scary.
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cheranne
been there too. why do you feel this way?
sorry, i've been there too,why do you feel this way today?
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Bramble
I think that the initial thoughts that deviated from TWI doctrine were scary because I spent most of my adult life in TWI with all the beliefs about devil spirit/disaster that befell those who left the truth.
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coolchef
well said jlingo i agree with you! it sure ain't purrrrrrrrrfect,but,what a wonderful world
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vickles
Thanks so much you all for your responses.
As you know I've been to Greasespot for about 5 years. I've been such a believer of God and thought that I have felt his presence. I'm truly wondering if that was my rose colored glasses playing a trick on my mind or if he is just not showing Himself to me lately. Or maybe if there is one he has decided for me to do this alone for a while as some parents have to with their children.
My whole life and family have been having major downs lately. Life changing downs and I look around and don't see Him.
Jonny and others truly brought tears to my eyes with the words used. But is it just words?
George, I'm wondering if what you say is true if I could handle it with no hope? I've always said I need to have something to look forward to in the long run. So, if I stay on the route of 'I don't believe' I wonder if something good for that hope leaves me? This is what I'm afraid of.
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cheranne
It is the most difficult thing i have EVER experianced,trying to get back to knowing God loves me. God loves you no matter what NO MATTER WHAT,the fact that right now you are wondering that is okay,it doesn't change things,God doesn't change, we all have been thru hell and back with this so called ministry and we have hurts and scars,we will never be the same as we were before twi,but keep the good,you found in friends and toss out the bad,you are a child of God and that doesn't get taken away,although sometimes we feel like orphans and walk alone ,...you can know your Not. all those years i was searching for answers i thought about the people of twi they were like family,i wondered how everyone was,where have they been,i felt like we had been thru a war togethre and we left others behind,i wanted to go back and get those others,it is tormenting knowing someone else is going through the same thing you did. i am not here to preach to anyone i am just here and if you want you can talk to me anytime.
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vickles
But OKC, I don't think it has anything to do with TWI. That is why I posted in open. I have dealt with the scars of TWI.
I understand about the preaching but your ok.
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TOMMYZ
Vickles,
I understand the feeling. I've been through some lows and am dealing with one now. I don't understand why it is that sometimes I feel like I can't connect and other times I know beyond a doubt that I've heard His voice and felt His hand on my life. Just hang in there and know he's there. I wish I had all the answers but I know they're out there.
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TheHighWay
Does not believing in god really mean there is no hope? Hope of what? Hope for getting through today or hope of an eternal tomorrow? Or both? I think one of the biggest things that faith provides for people is a sense of strength... it gives people something bigger than themselves to hang on to when they feel overwhelmed and vulnerable. And it gives them a sense of justice in an often unkind and unfair world. It gives them a reason to push through the bad, because of a promise of good in return.
But if there is no god, then that means you really have the strength within you. A strength that, up until now, you have credited to an outside source. I find that thought empowering rather than depleting. It means I don't have to wish and hope and pray for some outside source to help me through the hard times. I don't have to wonder if I've jumped through all the right hoops and confessed all my sins, or if I'm being 'tested' in this life. I have the confidence and certainty of knowing that I have it within myself to be strong. And I can be pro-active on my own behalf without worrying about breaking some religious rules dictating what I can or cannot ask of god. I find it broadens the opportunities for help and deliverance. And it broadens the opportunities for me to be a good, kind, decent human being. And if there is an afterlife, that seems to me to be the best way to approach it.
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GrouchoMarxJr
There is no way of proving it one way or the other...I tend to agree with Jonny Lingo...when I look at all there is to see, I conclude that there must be a God. I think religions miss it...it's something that needs to be dealt with on a personal level.
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vickles
Its all thought provoking and the realness of it is ssssoooo big in this respect its almost overwhelming.
I'm starting to feel better about my situation but I still wonder.
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Ham
I dunno. As "lame" as it sounds... one has to find "their own" truth..
I prefer to think of.. what once WAS God.. is now US..
String theory and Jewish mysticism at least partly might agree with me..
:)
I've asked him a couple of times.. how could you be so bored as to pull the plug on a bunch of dimensions..
what a mess..
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pond
I know for me I believe in an almighty God.
but i do not have a butch of restrictions and rules on who or what God is .
it is a very personal thing, but one I believe we can share with others with love.
"believers have throughout history doubted God or if He can do as He promises, this is not something wrong or new to the idea of who we are and who has a say in our life.
the psalms speak of utter hopelessnes for situations and they write as He doesnt hear or care or has left them alone.
for me to not believe isnt possible why? because i did the one thing twi said not to do, I asked God and Jesus Christ to prove to me they are real, and they did . and continue to do so. it is good enough for me.
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TheHighWay
Yup. I think this is a really good summary of about where I am these days. It's not so much that I don't believe there is a God, I just don't think religions hold the answers, so in many ways I function as if there were no God.
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George Aar
And the God we've been sold simply can't be all-powerful AND all-loving. He'd have to be one or the other, but not both. Otherwise how could you explain a dead baby? You could do what religions do and resort to spin control "God HAD to let that baby die or he wouldn't be a JUST God!" - and other similar meaningless drivel. That sort of crap is probably the biggest thing to put me off of living in believerville. And WayWorld did all sorts of it.
It just doesn't show up on my radar anymore. Why should it? There seems to be nothing I could do to please a being so superior to me, and it certainly doesn't seem like I can curry favor with him in anyway. And there doesn't seem to be any impact on my life no matter what superstition I may hold on to - nor anyone else's - from what I can perceive by my senses.
Isn't that why religions are always so disposed to telling you to disregard your senses? "Yeah, just believe this HOLY writ here. THAT'S got the only REAL answers!" Except it doesn't. It doesn't really answer anything. It just puts your focus on the unperceivable, the intangible, and lets you imagine that you're really tapped in to something much bigger than anyone can fathom.
Great! So superstition feeds your ego and gives you comfort at the same time. I guess that's why folks choose to hang onto it, despite the dearth of ANY real supporting evidence. I prefer my reality without the garnish, TYVM. As Carl Sagan said, I'd rather know a hard truth than be comforted by a pleasant fable.
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pond
I do not believe God is bigger than i can "fathom" or understand tho.
and i do not blame Him for dead babies either, as I believe He is a loving God.
Is there dead babies, yes, did God cause it to happen ? no i do not believe so. so im not angry at the idea of a God being mean or without love for me.
I think knowing and believing in God is much 'harder" or difficult than leaving life up to a chance without hope.
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Ham
The whole key in this, in my opinion, George, is not to hang on very tightly. Usually something better comes along..
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Lifted Up
Dunno if I can sense your feeling or not. Even my Spock logic tells me that whether or not there is a God is by no means going to depend on any turns my life takes. But I might have at least a faint feeling at times that making God real in my own life seems too hard at times, or that I've screwed things up too much for Him to work.
I may at times have doubts about these things myself. Can it be enough to make one lose hope? Perhaps. I just have to go on the assumption that somehow God is going to pull things out for me in spite of me. I may not be sure things are going to work out, but I may as well proceed on the assumption that they will with God's help, because it doesnt help me to assume that things will go to complete pot.
If you can find a source of help outside of God from someone here or elsewhere on your own, go for it. I dont know that I can be sure that God is NOT behind any help I get, but of course those who want to go to the mountain top and shout how they were helpd greatly without God are free do do so.
I cant help you much otherwise, except to say i am thinking of you and praying for you. If there is no God, then it is left to just my thoughts, and you know how much bread (or whatever you need) my thoughts are going to put on your table.
Ya know, if you are not sure, try praying anyway. Even if it is just something like "God, if you are out there and real, would you please help me somehow?" If God isn't out there, what have you lost? If He is, well, let's see what follows. Ask Him to show you something.
Get in touch personally with someone you think you can trust to some degree.
One thing I have seen around me at times in my life, and that includes several times on GS, that really really tees me off is when someone tells someone else to "get help" in an obviously derogatory tone. I dont care if it had something to do with a matter that is totally irrelevant to your problem or mine or someone else's. Such frequent use of such a tactic turns people's minds off to asking for help as a POSITIVE step. You know what I mean, like "You fool, get help..." and so forth. I gotta admit it has affected me at times. When someone then makes that suggestion in a genuinely helping effort, it may have the wrong ring to it that is not the fault of the person trying to help.
I don't know you personally, but I certainly know you as a long time GS poster. I may not know your faults, but I bet I know even less about how wonderful you are. And from what you have contributed over the years, I would bet you really are terrific, even if the words would be hollow if I pretended it was from any personal knowledge.
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sirguessalot
kinda glad this thread got moved to doctrinal...i dont feel as out of place rattling off like i often seem to
to add...
a note in regards to feeling the presence of God, and glimpses of God...
in the fields of consciousness studies and such, as i understand them...there is a distinction being made between what are called "states" and "stages" of consciousness
"states"= just as it sounds...are temporary states of consciousness...usually loosely divided (for the sake of conversation) into waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep....or gross, subtle and causal....which are pretty much the same as the more traditional body soul and spirit...but they are also called many other things, and also full of even finer distinctions...made by those who are really really into such things.
But basically, everyone moves through all states on a daily basis, although we may not recall this, but they are normal, native phases of how we experience existence.
The deeper practices (and crazy accidents) at the heart of most all religious traditions were intended to access and/or give language to the full spectrum of altered states possible in man...thus there are hundreds, if not thousands of terms used...from shekinah to satori, from kensho to I AMness, from the eye of God to the pure Witness, from enlightment to rebirth.
"stages"= established plateaus of consciousness, based on interior structures of "selfhood" and "ego development" and such. This self-constructed position develops sequentially along a spectrum of stages. Western psychologies have been shedding light on these via centuries of rational investigation..often through sentence completion tests and other forms of inquiry and dialogue.
One reason why it is so very important to make the distinction between states and stages, is because we experience all "states" at any "stage," but we interpret "state" experiences according to our "stage."
In other words, if i experience a profound spiritual state of consciousness (such as a period of bodily felt unity with "The Great Cause?") while at a mythic stage of "selfhood," i may interpret the experience as "feeling the presence of God, the Father." But when i am moving into a rational stage, i cannot deny having the previous state/glimpse, but i will certainly be challenged to continue interpretating the experience in the same mythic way. So i might explainit in purely objective terms, maybe involving neurosciences or biology or physics.
of course, my rational modernist interpretation will have its own shelf life ...eventually introducing a worldview that values personal discovery of the meanings of experience above all...a stage that see the limits of rational language.
...which, btw, is the worldview most inclined to object to everything i just wrote about state/stage distinctions...or most any other such distinctions, most likely from mistaking them for merely rational or merely mythic worlviews...which they are not.
But that is another thread, i suppose.
...
another quick point...the stages i have described is a very general description, and only one language-set possible for describing them, and only barely begins to describe the many other radical details and variables of human consciousness.
and in no way do i think the whole of a person can be so easily reduced to stages...such language is merely a limited instrument for measuring a limited scope of consciousness, and not the same as that which is being measured. Much as inches are not the same as the lumber.
and finally...i am not suggesting that these stages are a preexisting reality...which is more of a merely metaphysical position...but that they are essentially organically built as we go along
and finally, apologies if i come across too impersonal...i am no expert, and am mostly just an artist...and what i have written is not only a synthesis and translation of my own understanding, but also of my experience of life. I hope it doesnt come across as being preachy about an absolute position. I am not so good at relating via public writing like this. I relate by offering concepts and possibilities i feel may help.
...
for what its worth
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Bramble
No need to apologize Sir Guess. I found your reply about glimpses understood according to our stage very interesting.
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