But then isn't that was Simon Magus did? This was his power over the people, that he had some kind of super-connection to the spirit realm? I see what you are saying, Jen-o, however, I said what I said because anyone who so desires to have a rich and powerful connection to the Lord Jesus Christ, can have it if they will only spend the time to cultivate their relationship with HIM.
But this is the false acquisition of power and control over others that false teachers garner for themselves, and it works because of the ignorance of the Word of God in the churches. It is my sad opinion this is also representative of the "spirit of Nicolaitans and their deeds." In the Greek, the word Nico is from Nikay and Laitans stems from Laos, so both together equals: POWER OVER + PEOPLE. Would you agree?
bride,
i wholeheartedly agree!
i wasn't saying that the "leaders" actually have any "special" connection...
i was saying that the peopleTHINK that "leaders" have some "better" and "special" connection...
and the "leaders" propagate that idea, which in turn, leads to abuse...
i absolutely agree with you that this is the spirit of the nicolaitans, who set up a spiritual hierarchy (beginning with the roman catholic church)
and twi did the very same thing!!
twi was real good at accusing other churches of things, and then they turned around and did the same thing...
and imo, twi took it to a more extreme level!... by micromanaging the lives of those on the lower rungs of the hierarchy!
twi is an evil organization!
shalom,
jen-o
p.s. i think we are on the same page about matthew 7 (although we may have gotten there from different places)
i think matthew 7:21-23 is written to all those who call Jesus, 'Lord'... and therefore, it is directed at those who call themselves "christian"... and of course, we all know that christians have been grafted in to the root of israel... :)
I think of the years I went through the drill.. it just seems this ultra uber method of studying the bible.. and studying, and studying more, the same thing, year in, year out.. for a lot of people was not much more than a contrived method to attempt to force spiritual growth, pretending to be what one was not.
Endlessly following procedure, gotta know everything one can know by the five senses, lest the Lord give you nothing.. endless lists of definintions, of manifestations, which outlined exactly how the Lord was gonna do the job.. then by the odd chance one DID get something, often it got lost under a pile of analysis, checking "what's the profit".. checking to see if it fit the definitions..
I was a walking concordance.. and it's still there, about 70 percent or so.
but what good did all of that do? I think we were part of a new kind of "Christian" phariseeism.. a lot of us practically memorized "the law"..
it just seems.. if the Lord wants one to hear his voice, I don't think He exactly needs that kind of assistance in the matter. If anybody is "lost".. it's not Him..
little ham-ster,
twi most certainly did NOT represent the Lord and His ways or methods!
i absolutely agree with you about twi's methods, and i am of the opinion that twi was NOT about the Lord Jesus!
if someone got born again while participating in twi, then it was in spite of twi NOT because of twi...
personally, i chucked everything i ever learned in twi and started over again... twi gave God a bad name, and left a bad taste in people's mouths... and i do understand that... but i'm not gonna blame God for that...
i will have to write more later... cuz i have to run...
... In two sermons that I delivered on spiritual deliverance, it was very obvious that we have an enemy....barely anyone there for the evening service and I remarked, "It is interesting that when I get ready to teach on this subject the numbers of people that fail to show up. But also remarkable are the ones who do come to church to hear this topic."...
Some more honest feedback and thoughts, for what it's worth…Is it possible that some folks don't show up, or balk like a mule because of something about you. Maybe the tension or disconnect has more to do with the messenger than the message. I know sometimes I can be my own worst enemy – even when I'm passionate about a cause…I'm not trying to pick a fight here – just offering my honest reaction to some of your posts. And like I've said before – this is just me – I could be wrong…but…sometimes you come across as a know-it-all or a spiritual snob…that's just my impression anyway…
Our personality that comes across on a website is, at best, a meager representation of what we're really like in person…What would the folks of your congregation think of your comments here about them? Would some be surprised…offended? Or say "Yup, that sounds like you."
I don't have a beef with you doctrinally or personally…just thought my feedback may help you get your message out.
I think of the years I went through the drill.. it just seems this ultra uber method of studying the bible.. and studying, and studying more, the same thing, year in, year out.. for a lot of people was not much more than a contrived method to attempt to force spiritual growth, pretending to be what one was not.
Endlessly following procedure, gotta know everything one can know by the five senses, lest the Lord give you nothing.. endless lists of definintions, of manifestations, which outlined exactly how the Lord was gonna do the job.. then by the odd chance one DID get something, often it got lost under a pile of analysis, checking "what's the profit".. checking to see if it fit the definitions..
I was a walking concordance.. and it's still there, about 70 percent or so.
but what good did all of that do? I think we were part of a new kind of "Christian" phariseeism.. a lot of us practically memorized "the law"..
it just seems.. if the Lord wants one to hear his voice, I don't think He exactly needs that kind of assistance in the matter. If anybody is "lost".. it's not Him..
If it was just a "drill" and you came away with nothing...then you're right, "what good did all of that do?" After all of these years of being away from TWI, being able to distance myself and look objectively at some of (believe it or not) their good points as well as looking at their false doctrine and false approach to exegesis can honestly say it led me towards and spurred a hunger for the things of the LORD. While it may have been contrived in some sense of the word, there's nothing wrong in being a walking concordance and in no way should it be considered pharasaism unless by your own admission, your heart was waxed gross. When you say that you memorized "the law", which do you speak of: GOD'S LAW; Moses' law; or cult rules? Each of these are different. As far as the LORD wanting us to hear HIS VOICE, you're right in that HE doesn't need any assistance; but I believe HE WAITS upon us to SEEK HIM. A truism to be sure: Jesus has never been lost.
Some more honest feedback and thoughts, for what it's worth…Is it possible that some folks don't show up, or balk like a mule because of something about you. Maybe the tension or disconnect has more to do with the messenger than the message. I know sometimes I can be my own worst enemy – even when I'm passionate about a cause…I'm not trying to pick a fight here – just offering my honest reaction to some of your posts. And like I've said before – this is just me – I could be wrong…but…sometimes you come across as a know-it-all or a spiritual snob…that's just my impression anyway…
Our personality that comes across on a website is, at best, a meager representation of what we're really like in person…What would the folks of your congregation think of your comments here about them? Would some be surprised…offended? Or say "Yup, that sounds like you."
I don't have a beef with you doctrinally or personally…just thought my feedback may help you get your message out.
Love & peace T-Bone
Thank Tbone, I hope it comes from an open heart. But just to fill you in on some more of what I have witnessed and experienced: Folks don't show up expecially when one talks about deliverance....this has happened more than once. IMO, it's because they do not wish to think that they might have to deal directly with the devil in their lives and it is far easier to AVOID than to CONFRONT. If I don't think about it, it doesn't exist. In the psychological world, I believe it's call "stuffing." They show up for everything else, so one begins to draw conclusions as to the why.
I don't know which end of the spectrum regarding the church you are on, i.e. evangelical or charismatic. I'm on the charismatic side, but was trained on the evangelical side and was raised RC and suffered through a cult. Hmmmm. I sometimes think that the Lord has allowed this so that I would have the full exposure to all of it. As far as sometimes coming off as a "know-it-all" or a "spiritual snob", let me also fill you in on some of the reactions I've experienced over the years. As long as I wasn't "educated" in biblical matters, all was fine and dandy. The day that the Lord moved upon me heavily, I was preparing to be a social worker. I had jumped through all of the hoops at the local university to gain admission to the BSW program and was attending my first class when the LORD let me taste what I was really getting into and at the same time HE was laying out the bait for me to go the bible college 55 miles away. Ahh, the Master Fisherman indeed. I marvel still.
After gaining admission to the bible college and having to lose 24 credits (ouch) because of the difference between the secular and the biblical formats, it wasn't too long after that, maybe one and a half years in the initial training, perhaps two that I began to experience the "spirit of offense" in people in my church. I was still sitting on the receiving side. This understanding comes from looking back, not from when I was beginning to experience it; people despise being corrected, even if they are wrong. Where does this stem from? IMO, pride. Even though I showed them in the Scriptures, I soon found that people (some, not all) would rather remain with wrong thinking rather than change, even if it's offered with humility. It took a long time to realize this, and I've also suffered with it as well. Because I was in an evangelical bible college of which they were death on tongues and yet here I was....a charismatic WOMAN. For you see, my bible college was also death on women PREACHERS. If that isn't a hoot. I came to look at it as the LORD rubbing their noses in it. They HAD to give me an education because the laws in the USA demand it, especially when they are receiving federal funding, yet their biblical outlook hated it...while I also knew that they would never help me find a placement after graduation because of their doctrinal beliefs.
After graduation, I briefly attended another church and because the more "educated" I became on biblical matters, sometimes the worse it got. This was not because I engaged in doctrinal debates with people, sometimes it was simply when they found out that I was BIBLICALLY TRAINED. This also included pastors, I might add. They immediately felt threatened by my very presence. As if I was going to stand up and denounce them or something as heretics. Why? I believe because it showed up the lack of spiritual hunger in those that became "offended". When I began attending this church, like I said, it had gotten to the point where I had TOLD the LORD that I wasn't going to tell anyone that I was BIBLE COLLEGE TRAINED. I was going to feign ignorance. And just like the LORD....HE wasn't going to let me either. Sure enough....a woman came up to me and called me by name. Total shock. I didn't remember her, but she had remembered me. We had taken one class together several years ago while still in college level. She proceeded to tell others in the church where I was graduated from and I could only look up at the LORD and say, "You're just not going to let me hide, are you?"
When the LORD walked the earth, the pharisees exhibited a false humility and wouldn't make attestation that the ideas they proffered were their own, but would rather present them as such: "Rabbi so-and-so says...." and "Rabbi this-and-that says." When the LORD JESUS came on the scene, HE TAUGHT WITH AUTHORITY and said BUT I SAY TO YOU.... and immediately they were offended. I'm commanded to imitate my GOD.
To make it shorter, I finally made peace with it and realized that if someone was going to be offended by my education, it was their problem, not mine. So if there be some that think I'm a know-it-all or a spiritual snob, then they need to take it before the LORD and ask HIM why they feel the way that they do. Perhaps the LORD is using my education to stir up in you all, to aim you once again at studying HIS WORD. Could I systematically destroy your positions on the WORD? Yes. That's what I've been trained to do, i.e. apologize the WORD OF GOD! I don't because I'm dealing with brothers and sisters. In seminary, it is a requirement to take classes on apologetics and one of the finals is to debate another student with the intent on destroying their position and proving them wrong. My assignment was to destroy my very own position, i.e. charismatic churches and take the opposing side. I got an "A" on that debate. So let me make this 100% clear, brother, I will in no way apologize for my education that the LORD HIMSELF has provided to me. You can view this as arrogance if you will, I call it "knowing what the LORD has called me to and fulfilling it."
Just a little aside for the "fully persuaded" crowd.
Just because YOU"RE absolutely convinced that you know the "truth" and anyone who thinks differently has their head in a shaded place, it doesn't make it so. There IS the possibility that, despite your unflinching confidence in it's veracity, you just may have hitched your wagon to an entirely BOGUS notion. Yes, Virginia, that REALLY is possible.
There are people the world over who are convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt that their superstition is the one and only TRUE religion. Rabidly, zealously, completely beyond any possibility of reasoning with, utterly convinced. And yet their beliefs are quite different from - and often contradictory to - the beliefs held by zealots of some other sect. Ya can't ALL be right can you?
Geeze, I know Christians, Buddhists, Astrologers, believers in Feng Shui, and numerous folks who just cleave to basic generic superstitions (unlucky numbers, bad omens, karma and the like). All of 'em tend toward a dogmatic approach to their beliefs. The "all or nothing", black and white, good or bad, my way or the highway seems to be the accepted method of practicing ones superstitons, and don't even CONSIDER that you may have some flaws in your thinking. THAT would be even MORE evil.
But you know, it STILL might all just be BS. It really might, your self-righteous pontificating notwithstanding.
There you have it, your inspirational thought for the day.
After all of these years of being away from TWI, being able to distance myself and look objectively at some of (believe it or not) their good points as well as looking at their false doctrine
their good points?!?
gee, you got me scratching my head here, bride...
what good points??
the only possible thing i can think of that was any good was some of the people i came into contact with...
but then, that had NOTHING to do with "the way"!
these were just nice, caring people (twi didn't train them to be that way)... in fact, the more contact people had with twi, the less "nice" they seemed to become... twi was like a poison, infecting people...
i'm curious to know what you think were the good points of this organization...
Just a little aside for the "fully persuaded" crowd.
Just because YOU"RE absolutely convinced that you know the "truth" and anyone who thinks differently has their head in a shaded place, it doesn't make it so. There IS the possibility that, despite your unflinching confidence in it's veracity, you just may have hitched your wagon to an entirely BOGUS notion. Yes, Virginia, that REALLY is possible.
There are people the world over who are convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt that their superstition is the one and only TRUE religion. Rabidly, zealously, completely beyond any possibility of reasoning with, utterly convinced. And yet their beliefs are quite different from - and often contradictory to - the beliefs held by zealots of some other sect. Ya can't ALL be right can you?
Geeze, I know Christians, Buddhists, Astrologers, believers in Feng Shui, and numerous folks who just cleave to basic generic superstitions (unlucky numbers, bad omens, karma and the like). All of 'em tend toward a dogmatic approach to their beliefs. The "all or nothing", black and white, good or bad, my way or the highway seems to be the accepted method of practicing ones superstitons, and don't even CONSIDER that you may have some flaws in your thinking. THAT would be even MORE evil.
But you know, it STILL might all just be BS. It really might, your self-righteous pontificating notwithstanding.
There you have it, your inspirational thought for the day.
You're welcome,
Everyone believes in something, George! Everyone! As to whether it is bogus or not, the end will declare itself, will it not? As to pontificating? My post was just a straight forward explanation of my experiences and my subsequent conclusions and determination to state my case. I try to be led by the Holy Spirit and let HIM determine the black and white, or the shades of gray.
Times are changing...I used to pay good money for TWI's self-righteouspontificating…now someone is giving it away for free!
I am righteous because of the Lord Jesus Christ....I am also a priest....soooooo
I guess you should get at least a B+ for the quiz,
and my bill is in the mail.
their good points?!?
gee, you got me scratching my head here, bride...
what good points??
the only possible thing i can think of that was any good was some of the people i came into contact with...
but then, that had NOTHING to do with "the way"!
these were just nice, caring people (twi didn't train them to be that way)... in fact, the more contact people had with twi, the less "nice" they seemed to become... twi was like a poison, infecting people...
i'm curious to know what you think were the good points of this organization...
shalom,
jen-o
Well, I remember vividly....when I first began attending a twig in the 70's the perceived love that everyone seemed to have for each other. I believe it was real, at least at that time. Some of the research, ok most of it, was bogus and it was plagiarized, but at the time I didn't know it and therefore, it spurred in me a hunger to learn more of the Word of God. God obviously saw my hunger and HE fed me. So yeah, they did have some good points, Jen-o. Yes, eventually, their false doctrines became poisonous or perhaps the cumulative deposits became more evident. Either way, when it was time to get out, I did.
just one more quick question...
bride, you don't believe in replacement theology, do you?
NO! Kind of hard to replace the root when you have been grafted into the branches, wouldn't you say? I do believe that the Jews were supposed to move into
the new covenant because it was prophesied in Jeremiah, which they were aware of, but when the time came they didn't recognize that it was their time of visitation from the Lord and they lost out. However, I do believe that they will have another chance granted to them and of course, if any decide to become Christian right now, there is
Glad to see you have a sense of humor, thanks for confirming my impressions…and thanks for all your jam-packed posts - at least we know what’s essential to your belief system.
Have you decided to enjoy your shetland ride after all, or have you even supersized it ?
:) :) :)
ON A SERIOUS NOTE:
I'm thankful for this thread T-Bone, I've been remembering and rethinking a lot of early days thinking that I did.
If I new then what I knew now I would have put a life or death type of seriousness to proving the promise that God would teach doctor the Word Like it hadn't been known since the first century. It's either all true or all b.s. type thinking as opposed to just believing it without thinking about it more.
There is a lot that I still hold to without hesitation.
Well, Jeff – there's one little hitch in my low rider/low risk plan. It makes it a lot easier for folks on a higher horse than mine to knock me off. Maybe I'll stick to walking for awhile.
The best that I know to do is to stay nice and comfy at ground level. It's the smallest fall that I could possibly take at any time.
P.S. I edited in some more serious thoughts for you in my last post T-Bone.
P.P.S. I like your posts BRIDEOFJC, sometimes they're over my head because you speak in the same manner that you were educated in. I don't find you to be on a high horse to speak of, just honest about what you believe to be true and that doesn't intimidate me at all.
It ....es me off when people talk smack about VP.Most of them that do a let down because they never but what they'se been taught into action there for they are not true believers.To say that VP was THE true man of GOD in his time is an under statement.
He did move the Word over the world,and opened up the Bible in ways that no one could see.He was the
Martin Luther of his "our" day.People need to step back and look what he really did.Even Paul,and Peter fell short
every now and again with walking with GOD.
The problem is that so many made VP into a GOD,so when they found out he was a man they were torn.What
he really taught was comon sense.People seem to over think what he said"in his own words" he told use not to take his word for it,but to study and make it your own.How basic is that
Its amazing when you turn on the history ch.,and see what they have reaserched,stuff that he taught 30 years ago,and no one believed.
Lets be honest TWI was the greatest thing that ever happened in our time.People are ....ed because they know they'll never get it back.There ....ed off at VP when it should be the egos of the leaders that took over TWI,and We let it happen.I never heard any neb. teachings untile the Rock of Ages in 85 it blew me away here I am going WOW,and I just heard some of the worst teachings I ever heard. I decided to stick my WOW year out.I knew in my WOW year what was going to happen.
Look at how many of the Ex way leaders have tried to pick up were he left off,and are failing.I've tried to go to some of these Fellowships but they fall so short,and the Heart just isn't there.Maybe I expect to much.
So those of you that talk Smack about VP, ask yourself a ?What did you do to contribute,and walk with GOD,or are you just a poser who type pretty words that mean nothing?What have you done to make the Word of live in your life?What have you done for the family of GOD?WHy the hell are you really so bitter?When are you goin to start edifying GOD instead of tearing him down.
Did VP change the World of course.We wouldn't be here chatting about him,if he didn't."If I could have only be the man I knew to be" even VP knew he was just a man
But since I've had a biblically compromised liar tear away my wife and child for me in a small splinter group I don't talk smack about other people who've been broken up either.
A LOT OF WHAT YOU SAY IS JUST TALKING SMACK ABOUT MANY PEOPLE HERE TOO!
If you do some more reading you might find that the folks here have a lot more going for them than you think. You may find that you don't have any buisness at all questioning some of these folks about what they've done and that you are the one who's just shooting off your mouth.
(added in editing)
Believe it or not, I sympathise with what you've said. Since I've been here I haven't let some people who think the way you do bully some of these people without withstanding them, that's all.
For one thing you can twist my post any way you want,another thin I was one of the first people to call out
the un Godliness of my local leaders before the bs hit the fan,and I ended up walk away from TWI because of it.I was tied of people being abused including myself,and my family,I walked away,and never looked back and took the tools I learned with me.I keep the great people,and times I had with me I wont let them Rob me of that.That was,and is my point
Don't act like you're some bad foot,and I'm a bully,by saying we need to get on with our lives,so we can see GOD work.when people are honest it gets people fired up.I can;t believe in never got kicked off the WOW field.
LOL I say screw all those people to it gives me more time to spend on believers who do walk with GOD.My post is about not wasting our time on the people that tore down TWI,and spending time getting our selves back on track If thats shooting my mouth off so be it. I do back up my mouth
" I am grieved with TWI when I see kind and gentle souls who are afraid of saying what they believe publically for fear of mean spirited payback."
There is an abundance of information that you may or may not be aware of.
I usually recommend that new arrivals start by examining some of the information that has been brought here in the form of documents and articles, such as the materials that deal with the errors in PFAL(both doctrinal and actual.)
There are copies of various documents such as Dr. Wierwille's death certificate that state his cause of death as cancer.
To an outsider that might seem insignificant but to someone who has been through the Advanced Class, that is of utmost relevance.
There are documents that deal with the sexual scandals that led to the now infamous lawsuit.
And, there's more, lots more.
It would probably be beneficial to familiarize yourself with some of this information before getting too involved in the forum discussions.
Now, I'm not very good at helping people navigate around this place, but there are lots of people who are and would be glad to help you find whatever you might want to search out.
I hope you stick around and explore the place a bit.
Yes waysider, and most of those ungodly acts can be linked directly to the teachings and doctrines of the way and vpw. Much of it has already been documented here.
So it's not "smack" but facts and clear evidence of the various truths concerning these things.
Though there can be some good found in anything, the same can be turned to self serving malicious deeds and ungodly acts.
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jen-o
bride,
i wholeheartedly agree!
i wasn't saying that the "leaders" actually have any "special" connection...
i was saying that the people THINK that "leaders" have some "better" and "special" connection...
and the "leaders" propagate that idea, which in turn, leads to abuse...
i absolutely agree with you that this is the spirit of the nicolaitans, who set up a spiritual hierarchy (beginning with the roman catholic church)
and twi did the very same thing!!
twi was real good at accusing other churches of things, and then they turned around and did the same thing...
and imo, twi took it to a more extreme level!... by micromanaging the lives of those on the lower rungs of the hierarchy!
twi is an evil organization!
shalom,
jen-o
p.s. i think we are on the same page about matthew 7 (although we may have gotten there from different places)
i think matthew 7:21-23 is written to all those who call Jesus, 'Lord'... and therefore, it is directed at those who call themselves "christian"... and of course, we all know that christians have been grafted in to the root of israel... :)
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jen-o
little ham-ster,
twi most certainly did NOT represent the Lord and His ways or methods!
i absolutely agree with you about twi's methods, and i am of the opinion that twi was NOT about the Lord Jesus!
if someone got born again while participating in twi, then it was in spite of twi NOT because of twi...
personally, i chucked everything i ever learned in twi and started over again... twi gave God a bad name, and left a bad taste in people's mouths... and i do understand that... but i'm not gonna blame God for that...
i will have to write more later... cuz i have to run...
peace,
jen-o :)
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T-Bone
Some more honest feedback and thoughts, for what it's worth…Is it possible that some folks don't show up, or balk like a mule because of something about you. Maybe the tension or disconnect has more to do with the messenger than the message. I know sometimes I can be my own worst enemy – even when I'm passionate about a cause…I'm not trying to pick a fight here – just offering my honest reaction to some of your posts. And like I've said before – this is just me – I could be wrong…but…sometimes you come across as a know-it-all or a spiritual snob…that's just my impression anyway…
Our personality that comes across on a website is, at best, a meager representation of what we're really like in person…What would the folks of your congregation think of your comments here about them? Would some be surprised…offended? Or say "Yup, that sounds like you."
I don't have a beef with you doctrinally or personally…just thought my feedback may help you get your message out.
Love & peace T-Bone
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brideofjc
If it was just a "drill" and you came away with nothing...then you're right, "what good did all of that do?" After all of these years of being away from TWI, being able to distance myself and look objectively at some of (believe it or not) their good points as well as looking at their false doctrine and false approach to exegesis can honestly say it led me towards and spurred a hunger for the things of the LORD. While it may have been contrived in some sense of the word, there's nothing wrong in being a walking concordance and in no way should it be considered pharasaism unless by your own admission, your heart was waxed gross. When you say that you memorized "the law", which do you speak of: GOD'S LAW; Moses' law; or cult rules? Each of these are different. As far as the LORD wanting us to hear HIS VOICE, you're right in that HE doesn't need any assistance; but I believe HE WAITS upon us to SEEK HIM. A truism to be sure: Jesus has never been lost.
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cman
He didn't say he came away with nothing.
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brideofjc
Thank Tbone, I hope it comes from an open heart. But just to fill you in on some more of what I have witnessed and experienced: Folks don't show up expecially when one talks about deliverance....this has happened more than once. IMO, it's because they do not wish to think that they might have to deal directly with the devil in their lives and it is far easier to AVOID than to CONFRONT. If I don't think about it, it doesn't exist. In the psychological world, I believe it's call "stuffing." They show up for everything else, so one begins to draw conclusions as to the why.
I don't know which end of the spectrum regarding the church you are on, i.e. evangelical or charismatic. I'm on the charismatic side, but was trained on the evangelical side and was raised RC and suffered through a cult. Hmmmm. I sometimes think that the Lord has allowed this so that I would have the full exposure to all of it. As far as sometimes coming off as a "know-it-all" or a "spiritual snob", let me also fill you in on some of the reactions I've experienced over the years. As long as I wasn't "educated" in biblical matters, all was fine and dandy. The day that the Lord moved upon me heavily, I was preparing to be a social worker. I had jumped through all of the hoops at the local university to gain admission to the BSW program and was attending my first class when the LORD let me taste what I was really getting into and at the same time HE was laying out the bait for me to go the bible college 55 miles away. Ahh, the Master Fisherman indeed. I marvel still.
After gaining admission to the bible college and having to lose 24 credits (ouch) because of the difference between the secular and the biblical formats, it wasn't too long after that, maybe one and a half years in the initial training, perhaps two that I began to experience the "spirit of offense" in people in my church. I was still sitting on the receiving side. This understanding comes from looking back, not from when I was beginning to experience it; people despise being corrected, even if they are wrong. Where does this stem from? IMO, pride. Even though I showed them in the Scriptures, I soon found that people (some, not all) would rather remain with wrong thinking rather than change, even if it's offered with humility. It took a long time to realize this, and I've also suffered with it as well. Because I was in an evangelical bible college of which they were death on tongues and yet here I was....a charismatic WOMAN. For you see, my bible college was also death on women PREACHERS. If that isn't a hoot. I came to look at it as the LORD rubbing their noses in it. They HAD to give me an education because the laws in the USA demand it, especially when they are receiving federal funding, yet their biblical outlook hated it...while I also knew that they would never help me find a placement after graduation because of their doctrinal beliefs.
After graduation, I briefly attended another church and because the more "educated" I became on biblical matters, sometimes the worse it got. This was not because I engaged in doctrinal debates with people, sometimes it was simply when they found out that I was BIBLICALLY TRAINED. This also included pastors, I might add. They immediately felt threatened by my very presence. As if I was going to stand up and denounce them or something as heretics. Why? I believe because it showed up the lack of spiritual hunger in those that became "offended". When I began attending this church, like I said, it had gotten to the point where I had TOLD the LORD that I wasn't going to tell anyone that I was BIBLE COLLEGE TRAINED. I was going to feign ignorance. And just like the LORD....HE wasn't going to let me either. Sure enough....a woman came up to me and called me by name. Total shock. I didn't remember her, but she had remembered me. We had taken one class together several years ago while still in college level. She proceeded to tell others in the church where I was graduated from and I could only look up at the LORD and say, "You're just not going to let me hide, are you?"
When the LORD walked the earth, the pharisees exhibited a false humility and wouldn't make attestation that the ideas they proffered were their own, but would rather present them as such: "Rabbi so-and-so says...." and "Rabbi this-and-that says." When the LORD JESUS came on the scene, HE TAUGHT WITH AUTHORITY and said BUT I SAY TO YOU.... and immediately they were offended. I'm commanded to imitate my GOD.
To make it shorter, I finally made peace with it and realized that if someone was going to be offended by my education, it was their problem, not mine. So if there be some that think I'm a know-it-all or a spiritual snob, then they need to take it before the LORD and ask HIM why they feel the way that they do. Perhaps the LORD is using my education to stir up in you all, to aim you once again at studying HIS WORD. Could I systematically destroy your positions on the WORD? Yes. That's what I've been trained to do, i.e. apologize the WORD OF GOD! I don't because I'm dealing with brothers and sisters. In seminary, it is a requirement to take classes on apologetics and one of the finals is to debate another student with the intent on destroying their position and proving them wrong. My assignment was to destroy my very own position, i.e. charismatic churches and take the opposing side. I got an "A" on that debate. So let me make this 100% clear, brother, I will in no way apologize for my education that the LORD HIMSELF has provided to me. You can view this as arrogance if you will, I call it "knowing what the LORD has called me to and fulfilling it."
Blessings.
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George Aar
Just a little aside for the "fully persuaded" crowd.
Just because YOU"RE absolutely convinced that you know the "truth" and anyone who thinks differently has their head in a shaded place, it doesn't make it so. There IS the possibility that, despite your unflinching confidence in it's veracity, you just may have hitched your wagon to an entirely BOGUS notion. Yes, Virginia, that REALLY is possible.
There are people the world over who are convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt that their superstition is the one and only TRUE religion. Rabidly, zealously, completely beyond any possibility of reasoning with, utterly convinced. And yet their beliefs are quite different from - and often contradictory to - the beliefs held by zealots of some other sect. Ya can't ALL be right can you?
Geeze, I know Christians, Buddhists, Astrologers, believers in Feng Shui, and numerous folks who just cleave to basic generic superstitions (unlucky numbers, bad omens, karma and the like). All of 'em tend toward a dogmatic approach to their beliefs. The "all or nothing", black and white, good or bad, my way or the highway seems to be the accepted method of practicing ones superstitons, and don't even CONSIDER that you may have some flaws in your thinking. THAT would be even MORE evil.
But you know, it STILL might all just be BS. It really might, your self-righteous pontificating notwithstanding.
There you have it, your inspirational thought for the day.
You're welcome,
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cman
Lol George, I liked it.
There are some who don't 'tend toward a dogmatic approach to their beliefs'.
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T-Bone
Times are changing...I used to pay good money for TWI's self-righteous pontificating…now someone is giving it away for free!
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jen-o
their good points?!?
gee, you got me scratching my head here, bride...
what good points??
the only possible thing i can think of that was any good was some of the people i came into contact with...
but then, that had NOTHING to do with "the way"!
these were just nice, caring people (twi didn't train them to be that way)... in fact, the more contact people had with twi, the less "nice" they seemed to become... twi was like a poison, infecting people...
i'm curious to know what you think were the good points of this organization...
shalom,
jen-o
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jen-o
just one more quick question...
bride, you don't believe in replacement theology, do you?
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brideofjc
Everyone believes in something, George! Everyone! As to whether it is bogus or not, the end will declare itself, will it not? As to pontificating? My post was just a straight forward explanation of my experiences and my subsequent conclusions and determination to state my case. I try to be led by the Holy Spirit and let HIM determine the black and white, or the shades of gray.
If this was your inspiration for the day....
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brideofjc
I am righteous because of the Lord Jesus Christ....I am also a priest....soooooo
I guess you should get at least a B+ for the quiz,
and my bill is in the mail.
Well, I remember vividly....when I first began attending a twig in the 70's the perceived love that everyone seemed to have for each other. I believe it was real, at least at that time. Some of the research, ok most of it, was bogus and it was plagiarized, but at the time I didn't know it and therefore, it spurred in me a hunger to learn more of the Word of God. God obviously saw my hunger and HE fed me. So yeah, they did have some good points, Jen-o. Yes, eventually, their false doctrines became poisonous or perhaps the cumulative deposits became more evident. Either way, when it was time to get out, I did.
NO! Kind of hard to replace the root when you have been grafted into the branches, wouldn't you say? I do believe that the Jews were supposed to move into
the new covenant because it was prophesied in Jeremiah, which they were aware of, but when the time came they didn't recognize that it was their time of visitation from the Lord and they lost out. However, I do believe that they will have another chance granted to them and of course, if any decide to become Christian right now, there is
nothing to hinder them.
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T-Bone
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JeffSjo
So what's up with all this T-Bone?
Have you decided to enjoy your shetland ride after all, or have you even supersized it ?
:) :) :)
ON A SERIOUS NOTE:
I'm thankful for this thread T-Bone, I've been remembering and rethinking a lot of early days thinking that I did.
If I new then what I knew now I would have put a life or death type of seriousness to proving the promise that God would teach doctor the Word Like it hadn't been known since the first century. It's either all true or all b.s. type thinking as opposed to just believing it without thinking about it more.
There is a lot that I still hold to without hesitation.
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T-Bone
Well, Jeff – there's one little hitch in my low rider/low risk plan. It makes it a lot easier for folks on a higher horse than mine to knock me off. Maybe I'll stick to walking for awhile.
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JeffSjo
The best that I know to do is to stay nice and comfy at ground level. It's the smallest fall that I could possibly take at any time.
P.S. I edited in some more serious thoughts for you in my last post T-Bone.
P.P.S. I like your posts BRIDEOFJC, sometimes they're over my head because you speak in the same manner that you were educated in. I don't find you to be on a high horse to speak of, just honest about what you believe to be true and that doesn't intimidate me at all.
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Randy Honey
It ....es me off when people talk smack about VP.Most of them that do a let down because they never but what they'se been taught into action there for they are not true believers.To say that VP was THE true man of GOD in his time is an under statement.
He did move the Word over the world,and opened up the Bible in ways that no one could see.He was the
Martin Luther of his "our" day.People need to step back and look what he really did.Even Paul,and Peter fell short
every now and again with walking with GOD.
The problem is that so many made VP into a GOD,so when they found out he was a man they were torn.What
he really taught was comon sense.People seem to over think what he said"in his own words" he told use not to take his word for it,but to study and make it your own.How basic is that
Its amazing when you turn on the history ch.,and see what they have reaserched,stuff that he taught 30 years ago,and no one believed.
Lets be honest TWI was the greatest thing that ever happened in our time.People are ....ed because they know they'll never get it back.There ....ed off at VP when it should be the egos of the leaders that took over TWI,and We let it happen.I never heard any neb. teachings untile the Rock of Ages in 85 it blew me away here I am going WOW,and I just heard some of the worst teachings I ever heard. I decided to stick my WOW year out.I knew in my WOW year what was going to happen.
Look at how many of the Ex way leaders have tried to pick up were he left off,and are failing.I've tried to go to some of these Fellowships but they fall so short,and the Heart just isn't there.Maybe I expect to much.
So those of you that talk Smack about VP, ask yourself a ?What did you do to contribute,and walk with GOD,or are you just a poser who type pretty words that mean nothing?What have you done to make the Word of live in your life?What have you done for the family of GOD?WHy the hell are you really so bitter?When are you goin to start edifying GOD instead of tearing him down.
Did VP change the World of course.We wouldn't be here chatting about him,if he didn't."If I could have only be the man I knew to be" even VP knew he was just a man
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JeffSjo
I'm no fan of talking smack either Randy.
But since I've had a biblically compromised liar tear away my wife and child for me in a small splinter group I don't talk smack about other people who've been broken up either.
A LOT OF WHAT YOU SAY IS JUST TALKING SMACK ABOUT MANY PEOPLE HERE TOO!
If you do some more reading you might find that the folks here have a lot more going for them than you think. You may find that you don't have any buisness at all questioning some of these folks about what they've done and that you are the one who's just shooting off your mouth.
(added in editing)
Believe it or not, I sympathise with what you've said. Since I've been here I haven't let some people who think the way you do bully some of these people without withstanding them, that's all.
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JeffSjo
Randy Honey,
I'm very certain that there is a lot more to the trainwreck that was The Way International than you've been told.
I think that a lot of the folks here have seen parts of it.
A lot of these topics are not pleasant.
I'm listening.
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO IF YOU DON'T WANT TO.
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Randy Honey
For one thing you can twist my post any way you want,another thin I was one of the first people to call out
the un Godliness of my local leaders before the bs hit the fan,and I ended up walk away from TWI because of it.I was tied of people being abused including myself,and my family,I walked away,and never looked back and took the tools I learned with me.I keep the great people,and times I had with me I wont let them Rob me of that.That was,and is my point
Don't act like you're some bad foot,and I'm a bully,by saying we need to get on with our lives,so we can see GOD work.when people are honest it gets people fired up.I can;t believe in never got kicked off the WOW field.
LOL I say screw all those people to it gives me more time to spend on believers who do walk with GOD.My post is about not wasting our time on the people that tore down TWI,and spending time getting our selves back on track If thats shooting my mouth off so be it. I do back up my mouth
" I am grieved with TWI when I see kind and gentle souls who are afraid of saying what they believe publically for fear of mean spirited payback."
I respect people who call it like they see it
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waysider
Hello, Randy
Greasespot is really a very large site.
There is an abundance of information that you may or may not be aware of.
I usually recommend that new arrivals start by examining some of the information that has been brought here in the form of documents and articles, such as the materials that deal with the errors in PFAL(both doctrinal and actual.)
There are copies of various documents such as Dr. Wierwille's death certificate that state his cause of death as cancer.
To an outsider that might seem insignificant but to someone who has been through the Advanced Class, that is of utmost relevance.
There are documents that deal with the sexual scandals that led to the now infamous lawsuit.
And, there's more, lots more.
It would probably be beneficial to familiarize yourself with some of this information before getting too involved in the forum discussions.
Now, I'm not very good at helping people navigate around this place, but there are lots of people who are and would be glad to help you find whatever you might want to search out.
I hope you stick around and explore the place a bit.
waysider
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cman
Yes waysider, and most of those ungodly acts can be linked directly to the teachings and doctrines of the way and vpw. Much of it has already been documented here.
So it's not "smack" but facts and clear evidence of the various truths concerning these things.
Though there can be some good found in anything, the same can be turned to self serving malicious deeds and ungodly acts.
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JeffSjo
Thanks Randy,
But I am not acting about anything.
I don't have anything bad to say about your walk.
I do not believe that classifying these folks as a "waste of time" proves anything except your own issues.
(edited for spelling)
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