I had a slightly different path, but there are a lot of similarities. One difference though, is that for whatever reason, I've always had a somewhat scientific mindset, even since birth, and have modified what I believe or think based on the evidence. I used to read extensively and Carl Sagan's "The Demon Haunted World" really helped me break out of the rut of TWI.
My reading helped me learn about other ways of thinking and other ideas that people have, but seeing other people live happy, successful, fulfilled lives without being in The Way helped me edge past that TWI-created fear of "the adversary" and truly break free. It was amazing to meet good, honest, moral people who just happened to be Buddhist, Wiccan, Muslim, Catholic, Southern Baptist, Atheist, and others. As I got to know these people better, I saw that we are all human beings, we all have the same desires, questions, feelings, and fears. We just respond to things differently, and some questions/fears weigh on us more than others. Eventually, I realized that nobody really has the answers. Even in TWI we learned that we see through a glass darkly, no matter how sure of their beliefs Christians are.
Overall, I guess I would be open to believing in any religion, providing they can give sufficient evidence that I would trust. So far, none have done so.
Seth and I have been friends since back in the day.
It's the "atheist" part that bothers me. I agree with you on twi and organized religion, but the Bible is very important. We can't let what people do remove us from our destiny. Jesus don't play that, but people do.
Um, no it's not. I think we could do just fine without it.
Yeah, we'd have to give up the Sistine Chapel and Handel's "Messiah", but we could have also avoided the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, and about a gazillion "Godly Inspired" wars.
All things told, I think we'd have been a whole lot better off to have never embraced relgion at all. It seems like the human species is hardwired for it though. Every culture cooks up some superstition or other to waste their time with and in order to have good solid reasons for hating people different than themselves.
Seems like it would be a really good thing to break outta that mindset before we kill off everybody, though. But, honestly, I'm not very optimistic...
Seth and I have been friends since back in the day.
It's the "atheist" part that bothers me. I agree with you on twi and organized religion, but the Bible is very important. We can't let what people do remove us from our destiny. Jesus don't play that, but people do.
Hi again John, good to see you back around these cyber-parts.
I'm Atheist for sure, maybe a little Pantheist when I'm waxing philosophical but I definitely do not believe in god or jesus. For that matter I've done some research into some of the origins of the bible, and Moses well it blew my ever-thinning hair back to find out Egyptian, Sumerian, and many other cultures have had many of the motifs of stories in the bible, most notably the nativity virgin birth and death/resurrection, and Saviour stories. Horus, Krishna, Mithra, Dionysus, Hercules, and others. Horus was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "God's Anointed Son," the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc. The Greek God Hermes who was one of the "12" Olympians was known as "The Good Shepherd". Many ancient myths are source material for much of the bible.
One of the other facts that is coming to light with information from scholars researching ancient myths and practices is that much of the bible is allegorical astrological myths, or stories teaching astronomy. Which may be pure blasphemy to most Christians, but they'll never know if they continue to use the bible as their truth and use the same bible to prove that it, the bible is correct in what it says about itself. Kind of like asking a criminal if they are guilty and they say no, even thought they did it, but you let them go on their word. The circular logic of using the bible to prove itself truly boggles my mind to no end.
Yes I know I'm far from that wide eyed teenager that took the PFAL class in Sky Wood's house.
Yeah, we'd have to give up the Sistine Chapel and Handel's "Messiah", but we could have also avoided the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, and about a gazillion "Godly Inspired" wars.
You seem to have succumb to the false assumption that all who said they were following God's lead were following God's lead and not the flesh. How can you judge God by what people do?
It seems like the human species is hardwired for it though.
Hi again John, good to see you back around these cyber-parts.
I'm Atheist for sure, maybe a little Pantheist when I'm waxing philosophical but I definitely do not believe in god or jesus. For that matter I've done some research into some of the origins of the bible, and Moses well it blew my ever-thinning hair back to find out Egyptian, Sumerian, and many other cultures have had many of the motifs of stories in the bible, most notably the nativity virgin birth and death/resurrection, and Saviour stories. Horus, Krishna, Mithra, Dionysus, Hercules, and others. Horus was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "God's Anointed Son," the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc. The Greek God Hermes who was one of the "12" Olympians was known as "The Good Shepherd". Many ancient myths are source material for much of the bible.
One of the other facts that is coming to light with information from scholars researching ancient myths and practices is that much of the bible is allegorical astrological myths, or stories teaching astronomy. Which may be pure blasphemy to most Christians, but they'll never know if they continue to use the bible as their truth and use the same bible to prove that it, the bible is correct in what it says about itself. Kind of like asking a criminal if they are guilty and they say no, even thought they did it, but you let them go on their word. The circular logic of using the bible to prove itself truly boggles my mind to no end.
Yes I know I'm far from that wide eyed teenager that took the PFAL class in Sky Wood's house.
Seth
For me, it is just the opposite. The more I learn about the Bible, the stronger my believing becomes. When I see truth is all of those false religions, it reminds me of one of the devil's tricks: To be a good lie it has to have an element of truth. If I handed you a red $100 with a picture of my cat on it, I think you would know right off that it was a counterfeit. But if I had a really good counterfeit, and you saw some difference between it and the genuine, you might even decide that the genuine were the counterfeit.
Did you know that archaeologists will use the Bible to find out what they have found is?
For me, it is just the opposite. The more I learn about the Bible, the stronger my believing becomes. When I see truth is all of those false religions, it reminds me of one of the devil's tricks: To be a good lie it has to have an element of truth. If I handed you a red $100 with a picture of my cat on it, I think you would know right off that it was a counterfeit. But if I had a really good counterfeit, and you saw some difference between it and the genuine, you might even decide that the genuine were the counterfeit.
Did you know that archaeologists will use the Bible to find out what they have found is?
John, the reason you can't convince me on this point is several reason's first it relies on a single source and cites no other sources, the evidence provided is anecdotal, circumstantial or based on hearsay. I would be deluding myself if I were to only rely on what I think up between my ears, and only listening to people who believed and thought the same things, it's group delusion.
As far as false religions, which is the false? The older one or the newer one? How far back do you want to go? !0,000 years? 20,000 years? 100,000 years?
Why do people continue to use that worn out old, the value of the counterfeit increases with it's nearness to the likeness of the genuine, argument? Because the real essence of the problem is theists keep handing out lead and saying it's gold, they don't even paint it gold, they just hand it out and expect people to have faith that even though it looks like lead it's really gold.
More archaeologists and historians have proven the Bible as an unreliable source for finding ancient sites and a very vague historical record, even the gospels which were written many decades after the supposed events cannot get the history right even though the authors could have at least tried. The gospels have no compelling proof that can be validated by historians of the time.
This goes back to the china tea cup argument, simply put, if I were to say to you, "John, orbiting Jupiter's moon Io is an 18th century China tea cup." now assuming we didn't have a telescope strong enough to see it to prove it, would you believe me? If not why? Isn't my word enough? Don't you trust me? What if I showed you a picture of the tea cup my nephew drew with Crayola crayons, I mean he's a young innocent boy he wouldn't lie, and plus he used Crayola the best crayons, you know.
Well maybe my story about the China tea cup is unbelievable and so it should be, but what if thousand year old religious texts were written about the tea cup orbiting Io, suppose whole societies sprung from it, wars fought over it's belief, economies built around it's belief, Children being raised to worship the sacred China Tea Cup, various sects formed around theological differences over whether the China Tea Cup being from the 18th century but mentioned in religious texts dating as far back as 4,000 years ago. Was the cup transported back in time to orbit Io, or was it just in the foreknowledge of the potter?
This all brings me to the argument, should I feel obligated to believe in the existence of the China tea cup orbiting Io even thought I can't prove it exists? Or even better, does it make sense to believe in the existence of something *because* I *can't* prove it exists, which would sound like this. "I chose to believe in the China tea cup *because* I can't prove it exists."
Anyway I've said enough about this for right now.
Seth
P.s. bringing up trust in god over what man does and not blaming god for man's ways is convenient smoke and mirrors for men who build religions and institutions of worship. It's an easy out for them, hey don't blame me god told me to do it, he's moves in mysterious ways his wonders to perform. All we have in representation in this dimension are beings of flesh and blood, and as language developed so did the transmittal of ideas and thoughts.
Genesis may say god created man in his own image, anyone looking at ancient Egyptian and Greek gods would wonder if the translators have it wrong. Man created god(s) in his own image.
In a dig north of the temple mount they found a pool with five platforms. This was unheard of in architecture in that region. All pools had four platforms, yet this one had five. From John 5:4 they knew that this was the Pool of Bethesda.
This does not prove the Bible's spiritual accuracy, but it does have something to say about it's historical accuracy.
In a dig north of the temple mount they found a pool with five platforms. This was unheard of in architecture in that region. All pools had four platforms, yet this one had five. From John 5:4 they knew that this was the Pool of Bethesda.
This does not prove the Bible's spiritual accuracy, but it does have something to say about it's historical accuracy.
It's not too difficult to do a search and find that archaeologists have discovered a pool they believe to be the Pool Of Bethesda.
The question remains: How do we know there were no other pools of this structure? And, if there were others, what evidence is there that this is the same one mentioned in The Bible?
All things told, I think we'd have been a whole lot better off to have never embraced relgion at all. It seems like the human species is hardwired for it though. Every culture cooks up some superstition or other to waste their time with and in order to have good solid reasons for hating people different than themselves.
I wonder how much longer the Roman empire would have lasted had they not converted to Christianity. For all the talk religious zealots say about things like homosexuality ending great societies like Rome, the reality is that homosexuality was a part of their culture for hundreds of years longer than Christianity was, and it was. That's not to say that the conversion to Christianity is to blame for the fall of Rome, but it certainly was a factor or a symptom of the problems.
John, the reason you can't convince me on this point is several reason's first it relies on a single source and cites no other sources, the evidence provided is anecdotal, circumstantial or based on hearsay.
Convincing the other person to believe exactly as we do used to be the goal. The goal has changed. Today the goal is that I just don't want to see people go to hell. This goal, however, would seem absurd to you because you no longer believe in a hell. In fact, in twi we were not taught that people go to hell. We were taught that the unsaved simply ceased to exist. I never grasped that notion. To cease to exist did and still does seem so absurd to me.
I still believe that we cannot loose our salvation. If I am correct, and Jesus is the only way to salvation then you are still saved, yet I am not willing to bet my eternity on it. If hell is real, I don't want to be there.
There was a time when I had decided that it had to be false. Things were not going well for me, and I looked at all of the promises that we were taught, yet my life sucked (howbeit, I was not meeting the conditions for the promises). It was shortly after you left Eureka. I blew the engine in that brown station wagon that I had all of that trouble with, and then blew the engine in my truck about a week later. I ha decided to give up on believing.
I couldn't do it. It lasted about a half a second, but life continued to suck until one day in 2001 The Lord said to me "Mat 6:33: You know this stuff. Why aren't you doing it?" That is when my life started to turn around. It was a slow process, but it worked.
I had a problem with not seeing signs, Pericles and wonders as we were promised in the Bible. I still don't see them the way we should, but I am seeing why, and I am seeing some. Big ones! on the 6th of November, 2006 I broke my arm. I fell out of the back of my truck. I got prayed for that night. It was not healed that night, but when I got up the next morning, it was healed. On the 8th I was working as a rodie for the Celebration band lifting equipment that weighed over 100 pounds with an arm that was broken two days earlier.
Fear of Hell...fear motivation stinks IMO. I don't refrain from bank robbery because I fear prison, I refrain from it because it is unfair and a hardship to others.
There was a time when I had decided that it had to be false. Things were not going well for me, and I looked at all of the promises that we were taught, yet my life sucked (howbeit, I was not meeting the conditions for the promises). It was shortly after you left Eureka. I blew the engine in that brown station wagon that I had all of that trouble with, and then blew the engine in my truck about a week later. I ha decided to give up on believing.
I couldn't do it. It lasted about a half a second, but life continued to suck until one day in 2001 The Lord said to me "Mat 6:33: You know this stuff. Why aren't you doing it?" That is when my life started to turn around. It was a slow process, but it worked.
John I'm sorry your life sucked for so long, but I left Eureka in '89, are you telling me you continued to believe for 11 years before your life turned around? Maybe you should look at that, not from a stand point of you doing something wrong, but from the view of faithfully following directions that really lead nowhere, in other words you were sold a bag of magic beans. As life has it if you are lost and you just keep walking in the same direction you may find out where you are, or die trying. I prefer changing course and turn around heading back the way I came, I came from Atheism found religion was leading me deeper into the forest, I got tired turned around and walked out of the woods back to Atheism.
The fact is that we were sold a box of broken toys, TWI wasn't the first to do it, VPW just repackaged them with a little lead paint and some leaky batteries, sold as-is no refund all sales final, if you don't like it tell god I'm sure he has the answers. My answers from "god" have always ever been one of these 3 things: "dead silence" "my own pleasant rationalization" or "some remembered scripture or quote from a lecture" if it originates between my ears it's not good enough to be god talking to me (some psychiatrists might call that dissociative personality disorder or schizophrenia). That kind of thinking landed me in trouble more often then not.
John, I was diagnosed with cancer in 1998, it was a golfball sized growth on my right testicle, I noticed the change in shape as far back as 1993 when I was on the WOW field. It didn't start to really be noticeable as a size of a pea until around the time I left TWI in late 1994 I did nothing about it for 4 more years until after an Aerosmith Concert I was in so much pain I couldn't sleep. Why did I wait so long to have it checked? Because Doc Vic taught in the advanced class that cancer is a devil spirit, I was afraid I was hosting a devil spirit and I was totally afraid of being ravaged by a cancer spirit. So much for comfort from believing the truth of the bible, and having an in depth spiritual perception and awareness. There was no comfort, there was no still small voice, there was no visions of glory, there was no peace, just the dead silence of the realization that if the bible is right and what VPW says about the bible is right then I'm totally screwed.
Now that I'm an Atheist I'm not afraid to get cancer again, the chemo was bad but not that bad, I'm a vegetarian now and haven't had a drink of alcohol in 7 plus years so I'm in better health then I was back then. Since I don't believe in god or the devil angels or devil spirits my comfort and peace is better then it ever has been, I have fewer fears, and I'm consistently happier then I've ever been. Why? Because like my Father who is one of the wisest men I know told me while I was still involved with TWI, "Son you are the Captain of your own ship, no body else, you decide what you want to be and do." I am in total control of my life, and that's why I'm not afraid.
Seth, I had to cut myself short Thursday. My point in part was that I know where you are coming from. The church in this country does not give us anything to hold on to. In Brazil, India, China and the more remote regions of Africa and Mexico they are seeing the signs miracles and wonders that are promised to us in the Bible, but not here. We are too smart to believe in that kind of stuff. So, what we have in this country is a false faith. We say that we believe, but when it doesn't happen we say that it must not have been God's will. That is a man made theology. It is because Americans are lazy. They say that they are walking by the spirit while they walk by the flesh. The Thing that most drives people away from Christianity is the Christians. They don't even know what it means to walk by the spirit.
BTW, first thought revelation was bunk.
There is, though, evidence outside the book, if you would be willing to look for it. Outside of spending the $2800 to hook up with Randy Clark and going on one of his mission trips, you could just study the historians; people like Josephus. These are people who did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, yet confirm the miracles that the Apostles did.
Now, as for me holding on through those 11 or 12 years while things were not going well: I had something to hold on to, but it was not given by the church. I don't talk about it much. It was in 1977. God spoke to me audibly. He didn't tell me to start a cult. It was reproof. I was having lustful thoughts about a girl who I went to high school with, and the Lord spoke to me in a very stern voice, four short words; "I DON'T TEMPT YOU." I thought it odd that he told me something that I already knew. I also thought it odd that he even bothered, because I repented only in word at the time. It was not until years later when I was able to start breaking away from my sin. But if it were not for those four short words (which also freaked me out pretty good) when I decided that there is no God, I would probably have walked away, and never returned.
Caveman
I'm not familiar with that scripture that says people will go to hell.
Can you direct me toward that reference?
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Not much time for this, but the lake of fire is commonly misunderstood amoung Christian circles.
Rev 19:19-21
20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
NKJV
The question what is the lake of fire burning with? The answer given is brimstone or sulphur. Next question, what is brimstone or sulphur used for? The answer may surprise many. The word used for brimstone in the above verse is below from the Thayer's Greek lexicon. Apparently this deals mostly with purification and not complete destruction. Sorry, but that may be all I have time for.
NT:2303
theion, theiou, to
(apparently, the neuter of the adjective theios equivalent to divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off contagion (but Curtius (1879) Grundzüge der Griechischen Etymologie, sec. 320 allies it with thuoo; compare the Latin fumus, English dust)),
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excathedra
wow seth thank you for your reflections
you are a wonderful man
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cheranne
your a deep thinker seth,thanks for serving our country,I salute you!
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Mister P-Mosh
I had a slightly different path, but there are a lot of similarities. One difference though, is that for whatever reason, I've always had a somewhat scientific mindset, even since birth, and have modified what I believe or think based on the evidence. I used to read extensively and Carl Sagan's "The Demon Haunted World" really helped me break out of the rut of TWI.
My reading helped me learn about other ways of thinking and other ideas that people have, but seeing other people live happy, successful, fulfilled lives without being in The Way helped me edge past that TWI-created fear of "the adversary" and truly break free. It was amazing to meet good, honest, moral people who just happened to be Buddhist, Wiccan, Muslim, Catholic, Southern Baptist, Atheist, and others. As I got to know these people better, I saw that we are all human beings, we all have the same desires, questions, feelings, and fears. We just respond to things differently, and some questions/fears weigh on us more than others. Eventually, I realized that nobody really has the answers. Even in TWI we learned that we see through a glass darkly, no matter how sure of their beliefs Christians are.
Overall, I guess I would be open to believing in any religion, providing they can give sufficient evidence that I would trust. So far, none have done so.
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Caveman
Seth and I have been friends since back in the day.
It's the "atheist" part that bothers me. I agree with you on twi and organized religion, but the Bible is very important. We can't let what people do remove us from our destiny. Jesus don't play that, but people do.
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George Aar
Um, no it's not. I think we could do just fine without it.
Yeah, we'd have to give up the Sistine Chapel and Handel's "Messiah", but we could have also avoided the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, and about a gazillion "Godly Inspired" wars.
All things told, I think we'd have been a whole lot better off to have never embraced relgion at all. It seems like the human species is hardwired for it though. Every culture cooks up some superstition or other to waste their time with and in order to have good solid reasons for hating people different than themselves.
Seems like it would be a really good thing to break outta that mindset before we kill off everybody, though. But, honestly, I'm not very optimistic...
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Seth R.
Hi again John, good to see you back around these cyber-parts.
I'm Atheist for sure, maybe a little Pantheist when I'm waxing philosophical but I definitely do not believe in god or jesus. For that matter I've done some research into some of the origins of the bible, and Moses well it blew my ever-thinning hair back to find out Egyptian, Sumerian, and many other cultures have had many of the motifs of stories in the bible, most notably the nativity virgin birth and death/resurrection, and Saviour stories. Horus, Krishna, Mithra, Dionysus, Hercules, and others. Horus was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "God's Anointed Son," the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc. The Greek God Hermes who was one of the "12" Olympians was known as "The Good Shepherd". Many ancient myths are source material for much of the bible.
One of the other facts that is coming to light with information from scholars researching ancient myths and practices is that much of the bible is allegorical astrological myths, or stories teaching astronomy. Which may be pure blasphemy to most Christians, but they'll never know if they continue to use the bible as their truth and use the same bible to prove that it, the bible is correct in what it says about itself. Kind of like asking a criminal if they are guilty and they say no, even thought they did it, but you let them go on their word. The circular logic of using the bible to prove itself truly boggles my mind to no end.
Yes I know I'm far from that wide eyed teenager that took the PFAL class in Sky Wood's house.
Seth
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Caveman
You seem to have succumb to the false assumption that all who said they were following God's lead were following God's lead and not the flesh. How can you judge God by what people do?
Why do you think that is?
I think it's because we are made in his image.
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Caveman
For me, it is just the opposite. The more I learn about the Bible, the stronger my believing becomes. When I see truth is all of those false religions, it reminds me of one of the devil's tricks: To be a good lie it has to have an element of truth. If I handed you a red $100 with a picture of my cat on it, I think you would know right off that it was a counterfeit. But if I had a really good counterfeit, and you saw some difference between it and the genuine, you might even decide that the genuine were the counterfeit.
Did you know that archaeologists will use the Bible to find out what they have found is?
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waysider
Such as?
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Seth R.
John, the reason you can't convince me on this point is several reason's first it relies on a single source and cites no other sources, the evidence provided is anecdotal, circumstantial or based on hearsay. I would be deluding myself if I were to only rely on what I think up between my ears, and only listening to people who believed and thought the same things, it's group delusion.
As far as false religions, which is the false? The older one or the newer one? How far back do you want to go? !0,000 years? 20,000 years? 100,000 years?
Why do people continue to use that worn out old, the value of the counterfeit increases with it's nearness to the likeness of the genuine, argument? Because the real essence of the problem is theists keep handing out lead and saying it's gold, they don't even paint it gold, they just hand it out and expect people to have faith that even though it looks like lead it's really gold.
More archaeologists and historians have proven the Bible as an unreliable source for finding ancient sites and a very vague historical record, even the gospels which were written many decades after the supposed events cannot get the history right even though the authors could have at least tried. The gospels have no compelling proof that can be validated by historians of the time.
This goes back to the china tea cup argument, simply put, if I were to say to you, "John, orbiting Jupiter's moon Io is an 18th century China tea cup." now assuming we didn't have a telescope strong enough to see it to prove it, would you believe me? If not why? Isn't my word enough? Don't you trust me? What if I showed you a picture of the tea cup my nephew drew with Crayola crayons, I mean he's a young innocent boy he wouldn't lie, and plus he used Crayola the best crayons, you know.
Well maybe my story about the China tea cup is unbelievable and so it should be, but what if thousand year old religious texts were written about the tea cup orbiting Io, suppose whole societies sprung from it, wars fought over it's belief, economies built around it's belief, Children being raised to worship the sacred China Tea Cup, various sects formed around theological differences over whether the China Tea Cup being from the 18th century but mentioned in religious texts dating as far back as 4,000 years ago. Was the cup transported back in time to orbit Io, or was it just in the foreknowledge of the potter?
This all brings me to the argument, should I feel obligated to believe in the existence of the China tea cup orbiting Io even thought I can't prove it exists? Or even better, does it make sense to believe in the existence of something *because* I *can't* prove it exists, which would sound like this. "I chose to believe in the China tea cup *because* I can't prove it exists."
Anyway I've said enough about this for right now.
Seth
P.s. bringing up trust in god over what man does and not blaming god for man's ways is convenient smoke and mirrors for men who build religions and institutions of worship. It's an easy out for them, hey don't blame me god told me to do it, he's moves in mysterious ways his wonders to perform. All we have in representation in this dimension are beings of flesh and blood, and as language developed so did the transmittal of ideas and thoughts.
Genesis may say god created man in his own image, anyone looking at ancient Egyptian and Greek gods would wonder if the translators have it wrong. Man created god(s) in his own image.
Sorry for the grammatical artifacts.
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Caveman
In a dig north of the temple mount they found a pool with five platforms. This was unheard of in architecture in that region. All pools had four platforms, yet this one had five. From John 5:4 they knew that this was the Pool of Bethesda.
This does not prove the Bible's spiritual accuracy, but it does have something to say about it's historical accuracy.
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Oakspear
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waysider
It's not too difficult to do a search and find that archaeologists have discovered a pool they believe to be the Pool Of Bethesda.
The question remains: How do we know there were no other pools of this structure? And, if there were others, what evidence is there that this is the same one mentioned in The Bible?
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Mister P-Mosh
I wonder how much longer the Roman empire would have lasted had they not converted to Christianity. For all the talk religious zealots say about things like homosexuality ending great societies like Rome, the reality is that homosexuality was a part of their culture for hundreds of years longer than Christianity was, and it was. That's not to say that the conversion to Christianity is to blame for the fall of Rome, but it certainly was a factor or a symptom of the problems.
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Caveman
Convincing the other person to believe exactly as we do used to be the goal. The goal has changed. Today the goal is that I just don't want to see people go to hell. This goal, however, would seem absurd to you because you no longer believe in a hell. In fact, in twi we were not taught that people go to hell. We were taught that the unsaved simply ceased to exist. I never grasped that notion. To cease to exist did and still does seem so absurd to me.
I still believe that we cannot loose our salvation. If I am correct, and Jesus is the only way to salvation then you are still saved, yet I am not willing to bet my eternity on it. If hell is real, I don't want to be there.
There was a time when I had decided that it had to be false. Things were not going well for me, and I looked at all of the promises that we were taught, yet my life sucked (howbeit, I was not meeting the conditions for the promises). It was shortly after you left Eureka. I blew the engine in that brown station wagon that I had all of that trouble with, and then blew the engine in my truck about a week later. I ha decided to give up on believing.
I couldn't do it. It lasted about a half a second, but life continued to suck until one day in 2001 The Lord said to me "Mat 6:33: You know this stuff. Why aren't you doing it?" That is when my life started to turn around. It was a slow process, but it worked.
I had a problem with not seeing signs, Pericles and wonders as we were promised in the Bible. I still don't see them the way we should, but I am seeing why, and I am seeing some. Big ones! on the 6th of November, 2006 I broke my arm. I fell out of the back of my truck. I got prayed for that night. It was not healed that night, but when I got up the next morning, it was healed. On the 8th I was working as a rodie for the Celebration band lifting equipment that weighed over 100 pounds with an arm that was broken two days earlier.
I have reason to believe.
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waysider
Caveman
I'm not familiar with that scripture that says people will go to hell.
Can you direct me toward that reference?
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Bramble
Fear of Hell...fear motivation stinks IMO. I don't refrain from bank robbery because I fear prison, I refrain from it because it is unfair and a hardship to others.
Be a Christian OR ELSE!!! Dire Consequences!!
Is that what its really all about?
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Seth R.
John I'm sorry your life sucked for so long, but I left Eureka in '89, are you telling me you continued to believe for 11 years before your life turned around? Maybe you should look at that, not from a stand point of you doing something wrong, but from the view of faithfully following directions that really lead nowhere, in other words you were sold a bag of magic beans. As life has it if you are lost and you just keep walking in the same direction you may find out where you are, or die trying. I prefer changing course and turn around heading back the way I came, I came from Atheism found religion was leading me deeper into the forest, I got tired turned around and walked out of the woods back to Atheism.
The fact is that we were sold a box of broken toys, TWI wasn't the first to do it, VPW just repackaged them with a little lead paint and some leaky batteries, sold as-is no refund all sales final, if you don't like it tell god I'm sure he has the answers. My answers from "god" have always ever been one of these 3 things: "dead silence" "my own pleasant rationalization" or "some remembered scripture or quote from a lecture" if it originates between my ears it's not good enough to be god talking to me (some psychiatrists might call that dissociative personality disorder or schizophrenia). That kind of thinking landed me in trouble more often then not.
John, I was diagnosed with cancer in 1998, it was a golfball sized growth on my right testicle, I noticed the change in shape as far back as 1993 when I was on the WOW field. It didn't start to really be noticeable as a size of a pea until around the time I left TWI in late 1994 I did nothing about it for 4 more years until after an Aerosmith Concert I was in so much pain I couldn't sleep. Why did I wait so long to have it checked? Because Doc Vic taught in the advanced class that cancer is a devil spirit, I was afraid I was hosting a devil spirit and I was totally afraid of being ravaged by a cancer spirit. So much for comfort from believing the truth of the bible, and having an in depth spiritual perception and awareness. There was no comfort, there was no still small voice, there was no visions of glory, there was no peace, just the dead silence of the realization that if the bible is right and what VPW says about the bible is right then I'm totally screwed.
Now that I'm an Atheist I'm not afraid to get cancer again, the chemo was bad but not that bad, I'm a vegetarian now and haven't had a drink of alcohol in 7 plus years so I'm in better health then I was back then. Since I don't believe in god or the devil angels or devil spirits my comfort and peace is better then it ever has been, I have fewer fears, and I'm consistently happier then I've ever been. Why? Because like my Father who is one of the wisest men I know told me while I was still involved with TWI, "Son you are the Captain of your own ship, no body else, you decide what you want to be and do." I am in total control of my life, and that's why I'm not afraid.
Sorry if I offended and or freaked people out.
Seth
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Oakspear
Not at all Seth...thanks for letting us in
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Caveman
Seth, I had to cut myself short Thursday. My point in part was that I know where you are coming from. The church in this country does not give us anything to hold on to. In Brazil, India, China and the more remote regions of Africa and Mexico they are seeing the signs miracles and wonders that are promised to us in the Bible, but not here. We are too smart to believe in that kind of stuff. So, what we have in this country is a false faith. We say that we believe, but when it doesn't happen we say that it must not have been God's will. That is a man made theology. It is because Americans are lazy. They say that they are walking by the spirit while they walk by the flesh. The Thing that most drives people away from Christianity is the Christians. They don't even know what it means to walk by the spirit.
BTW, first thought revelation was bunk.
There is, though, evidence outside the book, if you would be willing to look for it. Outside of spending the $2800 to hook up with Randy Clark and going on one of his mission trips, you could just study the historians; people like Josephus. These are people who did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, yet confirm the miracles that the Apostles did.
Now, as for me holding on through those 11 or 12 years while things were not going well: I had something to hold on to, but it was not given by the church. I don't talk about it much. It was in 1977. God spoke to me audibly. He didn't tell me to start a cult. It was reproof. I was having lustful thoughts about a girl who I went to high school with, and the Lord spoke to me in a very stern voice, four short words; "I DON'T TEMPT YOU." I thought it odd that he told me something that I already knew. I also thought it odd that he even bothered, because I repented only in word at the time. It was not until years later when I was able to start breaking away from my sin. But if it were not for those four short words (which also freaked me out pretty good) when I decided that there is no God, I would probably have walked away, and never returned.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Not much time for this, but the lake of fire is commonly misunderstood amoung Christian circles.
Rev 19:19-21
20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
NKJV
The question what is the lake of fire burning with? The answer given is brimstone or sulphur. Next question, what is brimstone or sulphur used for? The answer may surprise many. The word used for brimstone in the above verse is below from the Thayer's Greek lexicon. Apparently this deals mostly with purification and not complete destruction. Sorry, but that may be all I have time for.
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Caveman
Luke 19:12-27 would be interesting then.
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kimberly
Can you make a frog or do you know anyone who can?
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Oakspear
Man, I just love non sequiters!
If I had a boy frog and a girl frog, then I could make a frog.
If the frogs cooperated!
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