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The Law of Believing

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you THINK that you KNOW Jesus because of your experiences in a CULT??

and you think that Jesus is similar to the CULT leaders you have experienced??

this doesn't even make sense..

especially because the CULT of twi NEVER knew Jesus at all!

so i'd like to know where you met Him (Jesus)...

since you definitely were NOT introduced to Him in a cult, via cult leaders...

i DO know Jesus, and it is CLEAR to me that you do NOT... it would be the same thing if you said that you knew one of my kids, and i know my kids very well, so i would be able to tell (by what you said about them) whether or not you knew them at all... the Jesus i know, you clearly have never met!



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this doesn't even make sense..
That's right, it only makes sense if it's your opinion <_<
i DO know Jesus, and it is CLEAR to me that you do NOT...
There you go folks, Jen-o's knowledge and perception is THE STANDARD by which all else must be judged! :blink:
it would be the same thing if you said that you knew one of my kids, and i know my kids very well, so i would be able to tell (by what you said about them) whether or not you knew them at all...
Not the same thing at all. Jesus is not physically living in your house, eating your food, forgetting to clean his room and asking for the car keys. Jesus is not your sole province. No one has the access to your kids that you do; you're claiming the same exclusive rights to Jesus? :asdf:
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i think your premise is flawed...

the "something" that is wrong is that we are born with sin nature into a fallen world...

if healing happened 100% of the time, then no one would ever physically die...

My premise was too simply stated. There are way too many variables. Why would God heal somebody it they aren't going to do anything with that healing? There are people who got healed only to get sick again. Maybe this is because they never gave their testimony?

Psa 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear [me]:

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.

Maybe if we all walked like Jesus did we wouldn't ever physically die, but we can't do that because we were born into sin.

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i guess you didn't like something i said...

well...that's just too damn bad!

if i KNOW someone intimately, and someone else comes along making wisecracks and badmouthing the person i KNOW (in ths case, Jesus), then i'm gonna speak up about it...

you don't like me using the example of my kids?...

well, let's take any person on the planet (X),

and let's say that i KNOW "X" intimately, and another person "Y" comes along and says things about "X"... you don't think i'm gonna know whether "Y" really knows "X" or not?... of course i will know... i (along with anyone else who knows "X") can tell by the things "Y" says whether he really knows "X" or not...

i didn't make any "standards"...

i didn't claim any "exclusivity"...

i was merely perceptive enough to know that the person making wisecracks and badmouthing the person i KNOW (Jesus), that person making those remarks does NOT know the same person that i KNOW...

and if you don't like that, that's just too damn bad!

but peace anyway,


p.s. correct me if i'm wrong, but i think you said you were a pagan... so how can you be so presumptuous as to rebuke me for talking about someone who is in MY FAMILY?!?

i don't presume to know anything about your pagan relationships... so why do you think you have a right to rebuke me for talking about my christian relationships?? you think my family members are 'fair game' for the rest of the world to make wisecracks about?

Edited by jen-o
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Hi Invisible Dan

You said "When you gather all the citations from the gospels of such cases, it presents us a rather unsettling depiction.

Unsettling in the fact that it's all too familiar."

I have to agree with you that it is unsettling. I actually went through a similar thought process for awhile. For me, and I understand this is not a widely held belief here, it was the WHO of Jesus that helped me to know Him. He is authoritative, because He is the final authority. He rebuked because He lived among them and they could not see Him. He stepped into time to show them and us who God is. He actually has the authority and power to teach, chasten and refine. The difference is the love he does it with. He gave Himself for us. He proved His love.

And Dan, He loves like no other.

But, if He is just a man--then it very well can seem "all too familar". If He is who He claimed to be---it is beyond wonderful that He would even bother. That is to His Glory--not ours.

It is hard to see through the clutter of odd TWI doctrine, but I for one am glad you ask these questions. I hope you keep looking and wondering and asking until you meet and know the Jesus who loves you and gave His life for you.

Anyway you go I hope you have joy--but, please don't dismiss the joy of knowing Him. He gave us the VERY BEST thing ever possible-Himself.

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Seems to me the Invisible one is questioning the book of Mark as to it's real authority of what actually occured then and why.

Get to know Danny a bit and you may see that too. Of course I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

jen-o, sheesh, talking about what? Knowing him?

To know is to love.

Without that, it's not going anywhere.

Why is that not in your tone.

Or I'm missing it.

If knowing "him" means to state it as lording it over someone.

I'll have to pass.

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you "passed" a long time ago...

and nothing i say here is gonna change that...

so you think that "danny" is questioning the authority of the book of mark (and i'm suppose to see that, too, if i "knew" danny a little better...

seems to me that dan waltzed onto this thread with a wisecrack about Jesus that was totally unrelated to the topic of the "law of believing"...

seems to me that "danny" is questioning whether Jesus is "all that he's cracked up to be"...

[btw, that question in itself is an admission that he doesn't "know" Jesus... otherwise, he wouldn't need to wonder about that]

later, dan makes another wisecrack that UNFORTUNATELY he thinks he knows Jesus all too well... and then he futher compares Jesus to the loathsome false teacher/false prophet CULT LEADERS that he has had experience with...

this is the SAME thing as someone coming onto this thread and (out of the blue) saying:

hey jen-o,

i wonder if your father (or brother) is all that he's cracked up to be...

UNFORTUNATELY i think i know your father all too well;

i read about him in a book, and he's like those SICK CULT LEADERS i once knew...

and i'm suppose to say nothing?!?

even if i make a rather MILD comment that this person does NOT know my family member,

other people think they should rebuke me for speaking up...

and appear to be offended by my words,

while calling me exclusive, judgemental, and unloving...

i think it IS love to speak up when someone trashes a beloved family member...

and i think i exercized GREAT RESTRAINT in not telling you all what i really think!

cman, you prattle on, speaking in vague platitudes that masquerade as some great esoteric wisdom (as in "to know is to love"), but Jesus is a PERSON... and i KNOW that person... and i LOVE that person...

you don't like MY tone of voice, yet you obviously see nothing wrong with the "tone" of voice used by those who sarcastically denigrate one of my loved ones OR those who rebuke me for speaking up about that...

well frankly, that's just too damn bad...



Edited by jen-o
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Unfortunately, I think I've gotten to know him all too well.

Much ado has been made on our cult experiences of having been railed upon by zealous leaders for our "lack of believing" or lack of "faith".

But is there really any significant difference throughout the gospels (esp. "Mark") in the manner Jesus rebukes his own disciples for the same?

When you gather all the citations from the gospels of such cases, it presents us a rather unsettling depiction.

Unsettling in the fact that it's all too familiar.

I wonder if the "O ye of little faith" statements that Jesus made were just bantering.

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Nah, you don't bother me.

Nor your responses to Dan or anyone.

Speaking so others can hear also,

not just you.

What you are calling, being sarcastic, may be true in that it is a sarcastic comment, though what it points to may also be true too.

And sarcasm between loved ones happens.

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Caveman, I am diggin what you said in 41 and 44. Although, some of it I many not understand. Regardless, of doctrinal differences we are all to love one another.

One thing I have learned is that healing is already a done deal. We are healed by the stripes of Jesus Christ. Satan comes to steal, kill and destroy our health and well being. He has no authority to do that. Sickness and disease has no authority in our body. Unless, of course, we give it authority like eating buckets of KFC, chain smoking, consuming gallons of soda pop and all the while never getting off the sofa. You get my idea. There is also methods, wiles and schemes.

We don't have to request healing. We already have it. If I get boogered up I just tell it to get out. I speak the Word to it. Works for me. Mercy sakes, if there was a formula, I would already be on the other side of the grass. I am still working on long division! Ha! Ha! I hope you understand my humor. It just represents to me that Father knew He would have to keep it simple so little ole me's could get it. The power of the spoken Word is a force I don't believe I have yet realized the full potential of. That is something I have been studying and working on for a while. And God said, and God said...and it was so...and we are to be imitators of God as dear children just like the Lord Jesus Christ was. Father has already taught us in His Word what we are to speak. Proverbs is jam packed with references about the effect of words.

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Somewhat confused here and please bear with me. What did I miss? People are demons? HUH?

What was the big deal about Invisible Dan's question and cman and Oakspears follow-ups that solicited that kind of response?

Not trying to be antagonistic at all, I promise, but WHOA! WOW!! I love the Lord and I wasn't offended. Been there. Wondered similar things myself??

Glad I did---it helped get me to the place I accepted Him.

Jen-o God doesn't defend Himself--He declares Himself. We show Him to others through love. Cman did kinda seem right on that. Your defense--while powerful--makes me wonder why you get so upset about a few questions. Maybe I misunderstood?

You are so right it was a destructive cult. It hurt peoples very souls. If stances are taken and questions are asked--who am I to judge these are permanent?

I declare what I know to be true about Him--share the love He has given me and the rest is His to deal with.

Jen-o I am really glad you know the Lord Jesus--awesome isn't He? Kind and gentle and able to deliver? I love the way He never infringes but woos. How He chastens with love and refines our hearts. There is real peace in His authority and unspeakable joy in Him.

Sorry to impose on this thread too much--I saw a question and my heart was to answer it. It still is.

Yes, He is all He is cracked up to be and More! :biglaugh: Be Happy--He lives!!

Edited by geisha779
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God first

Beloved All

God loves us all

In part of this tread I read "There are way too many variables" and we are talking about "The Law of Believing"

I see no variables in getting healed from God because God set up the body to heal itself in due time from anything even death

I see there being no law at all nothing but a loving Father who will do what he can if we let him by stepping back and letting God work with trust with is faith which believing all is better

God lets doctors help the body heal faster and better and we trust them to use their knowledge to help things get better that what God wants us to do with him trust him to help in our hour of need but yes we must asked first

but I see no variables because one person can asked with great faith, another person with poor faith but God with help both to the same level because both and the end will get healed

death is getting healed from being half flesh still because you become a new creature one like God

While this is a about "The Law of Believing" one can look at verses all over the bible and see great things done where believing and faith were not needed like the great flood no one was believing for it but Noah was believing to be saved from it

Like growing from baby to child there no believing needed it is just a cycle of life just like changing from death to a new creature

while the cycle was on stand by until Jesus healed the pattern broke by Adam

but after Jesus fixed the broken cycle we find the dead getting up

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

some from VPW lies we gain greater knowledge if we look to see where his lies miss the boat or each place in the bible his rules where not in play like Jesus need to walk on water or where we even asked for the ability to walk on water

no teaching on how other than step out into the water and walk

was it by believing or trust and what the different

when a child comes to their parents for help is it because the child believes they will help or does the child trust that the parents are wiser and that they will do what they can

will God can break all laws because he made them but our parents are subject to limited power

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

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jen-o, don't waste your time arguing with demons. Invisible Dan and Oakspear are only trying to get your dander up, and they have been successful.

Huh? I guess my lack of spirituality must be to blame, as I don't see the Invisible one or the Oakie doing anything more than trying to inject a little (much needed) common sense into the debate.

And the condescention from the more religiously disposed amongst us does seem to be getting a little overpowering. But, maybe I'm just too sensitive...

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hi geisha!

nice to meet you!

let me explain myself a little...

i did not see an honest question...

i saw a wisecrack about Jesus...

and i think i was right in my assessment as evidenced by the follow up post which contained more criticism directed at Jesus...

quite frankly, it p-$$es me off to see people denegrate someone who i know and love... (MY Lord and MY Savior)

and then someone who is admittedly pagan has the nerve to rebuke me for stating the obvious which is that i KNOW my Lord and my Savior and people who have not accepted Him as Lord and Savior do NOT know Him (i mean, duh!)

i don't presume to "know" the gods they worship,

and yet, they think that MY Lord is 'fair game' for them to criticize and mock...

(and yes, i have seen this done here at the greasespot... it is the ONE thing that i will become emotionally angry about... for the most part, i realize that this is just a message board and i do not become emotionally entangled in it... but when i see people mock MY Lord, it p-$$es me off)

hope that explains a bit...

peace to you,


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how is it condescending to point out the obvious?!?

which is that i KNOW my Lord and Savior and people who have NOT accepted Him as Lord and Savior do NOT know Him...

why does this seem to be such a controversial statement?

i'm not stopping anyone from 'knowing' Him...

people choose to not know Him by not accepting Him as Lord...

so why do people rebuke me when it is within their own power to know or not know Him...


i think that you are p-r-o-j-e-c-t-i-n-g...

"my stand" is wayspeak...

i never use those terms and i never think in those terms!

i don't care what you say about "me"...

it's NOT about "me"... and it has never been about "me"...

i didn't die for you...

Jesus did!

i'm not perfect, and i've never claimed to be...

but if you want to know someone who is perfect, seek Jesus!

Jesus is the one that you need to notice, not "me"...

and IF you look for Him, you will find Him...

but that is your choice...



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Huh? I guess my lack of spirituality must be to blame, as I don't see the Invisible one or the Oakie doing anything more than trying to inject a little (much needed) common sense into the debate.

And the condescention from the more religiously disposed amongst us does seem to be getting a little overpowering. But, maybe I'm just too sensitive...

I think it's the residual Kook Aid effects that need a medical supplement? There's kitty litter all over the place! :biglaugh:

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There was a time when the doctrinal forum was a place to exchange ideas, thoughts, beliefs, with friendship and kindness. Where we could disagree without anger and harsh words. Where we could learn from each other.

This thread is a perfect example of why I so rarely post here anymore. Sad. :(

While I don't believe in Jesus in the traditional Christian sense, and I certainly don't know your Jesus, Jeno, there was a time when the love he preached about was often seen in this forum - brief though it was in the grand scheme of things.

p.s. Bumpy, I can no believe you killed off Grumpy!!

Edited by Abigail
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I can't help but wonder if an all powerful God and the son he has seated at his right side really need us to defend them. I can't help but wonder if it is anger or compassion that should be shown to those who "don't know Jesus"? I can't help but wonder if accusations towards others of devil spirits truly comes from God and/or His revelation or simply from our own anger and frustration? I can't help but wonder how a display of anger is supposed to persuade and win someone to God or Jesus?

For me, such things just discourage me, leave me uninterested in hearing more. In Judaism, and throughout the O.T., we see men and women arguing with God, questioning God, even laughing at God. Yet these same men and women did great things for God - Sarah gave birth in her old age, Abraham saved Lot from destruction, Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt . . .

I think questioning is good. It is when we stop questioning that we potentially close the door on learning, potentially close the door on God showing us something . . .

Edited by Abigail
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:confused: I still can't believe someone called Oakspear and Invisible Dan demons--they are two of the most well written, courteous, unflapable posters around. I was interested in hearing more about what Dan was writing about--not because I 'hate Jesus'--because I don't, I actually think the Jesus of the Gospels is pretty cool--and I find it so sad that others worked to shut down discussion.

Abigail, good to see you.

jeno--Why would I want to know your Jesus when I see how his affect on you has been? I don't want to be like you and treat people like you do.

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Bumpy, I can not believe "the meanies" killed off Grumpy!!

Actually, according to cult documents previously submitted, Grumpy may have a cult court date coming soon to trial? Obviously, there has been much concern expressed by this and his current ill health (plus the required KP duties and cleaning of a VERY untidy Krypt!).

The bad news is, it appears the cult appointed lawyer on the case has little legal experience as evidenced by previous depositions. He even shows up to work wearing someone else's worn out socks with holes in them.

Probably cheap imports from Japan. :biglaugh:

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Hi Jen-o

Thanks for the response. I love your passion! Knowing the Lord--you know that no one can denegrate Him.

His work on the cross is complete. He is who He says He is. Every knee WILL bow and every tongue Will confess Him as Lord.

That is a given according to the bible. Although I did not see the mocking here you did, I gotta tell you--

Jesus was mocked by tougher guys than Invisible Dan and whoever else. One even repented!

He still managed to finish His work and save us. He STILL manages to love those who don't yet believe on Him.

Your job according to His command is to love them too. If you "Know" Him--obey Him.

Life is a bit more pleasant that way. Everyone the Lord loves He chastens--

While I admire your stand and steadfast declaration of the Lord--I have to just wonder a bit at the shrill tone?

Take a look at what picture the Gospels paint of Jesus--when He rebukes His disciples and claims He is the only way. Then imagine you regard Him as just some man.

Couple that with our Way experiences with "Leadership" and then possibly rethink the question asked.

Don't ever lose your passion!

Thanks so much! Take Care

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