You really caught my eye

[rhino]

Thanks Linda

I was gonna research this .. but didn't

m opinion is (I forget if it is from previous research) that trauma anywhere can result in eventual cancer. It is like an open door .. scar tissue ... throat problems ... sun damage ... whatever ...

but I'd welcome a more informed confirmation. VP may have had trauma from the filming ... perhaps at that point it was something he thought he could believe out of, or was so vitally important he would risk it ... how do I know?

Or maybe the cancer came from general stress ... which can cause weakness? But I am pretty convinced it is not a devil spirit ... but by then vp had the image to protect. So those close to him, maybe they had to be fed a story or two ... he couldn't say he was going to have his eye removed, so he said he was going fishing?

I don't know ... but I think stress/trauma, physical or mental .. can be a precursor to cancer.

[TheHighWay]

I don't know ... but I think stress/trauma, physical or mental .. can be a precursor to cancer.

So can smoking like a fiend... anyone know how many cigs Vic puffed each day?

[rhino]

So can smoking like a fiend... anyone know how many cigs Vic puffed each day?

That might have caught up to him as well, but it seems smokers are more apt to get lung cancer ... right?

[Mark Clarke]

Mark, so you've heard this fish hook story already then. When was it circulating, when did you hear it?

And does anyone know when the "burning the eyes out for PFAL" story started circulating?

No, I had never heard of it before. When I said it was circulating, I meant it must have been at least a little for John Reynolds to have heard it and told you. But however much it was around, the PFAL lights story would have been better for his image.

The fact that he had trouble with his eyes filming PFAL was known since the early seventies when The Way Living in Love came out. When the connection between that and his eye beng removed was first made I'm not sure.

[Linda Z]

Here's a (simplified) description of the type of cancer VPW had and how it's believed to develop.

Melanoma is a type of cancer that starts in melanocytes, which are the cells that produce melanin, a pigment of the skin, hair, and some eye tissues. People with blue eyes (which VPW had) are more susceptible to ocular melanoma than those with brown eyes, just as people with fair skin are more susceptible to melanoma of the skin, a highly malignant type of skin cancer.

It's possible that years of exposure to the harmful UV rays of the sun without the use of sunglasses could have caused (or contributed to) VPW's ocular melanoma. I don't recall ever seeing him in sunglasses, now that I think of it. However, from everything I've read, various types of bright artificial lighting also give off harmful UV rays. I'm pretty sure that the safefy standards in 1967, when PFAL was filmed, were not as stringent as they are today and that damage from the types of lighting used very well could have been a key factor in VPW's developing cancer in his eye.

I found this article online:

"Artificial Light Sources and UVR

Halogen and xenon lamps can emit UVR. Metal halide high intensity discharge (HID) lamps emit large amounts of UVR. Tungsten halogen lamps with incorporated reflectors are used extensively in work, display and home lighting. These lights emit some UVR which may be a hazard to the skin and eyes of people who remain in close proximity for long periods. In lighting applications where the lights are close to people they should be fitted with a glass cover to block the UVR emissions."

I don't know exactly what light sources were used in the filming, but I know from witnesses present that they were exremely bright.

The symptoms of overexposre of the eyes to UVR include:

a burning and painful sensation in the eye

a sensitivity to light

the sensation of a foreign object in the eye, sometimes described as sand in the eye

tearing

If I remember correctly, these are the kinds of symptoms Mrs. W described when I heard her speaking on this subject

The bottom line is that it doesn't much matter what caused the disease that killed VPW. He's dead. He died of cancer, which is a physical disease with physical/environmental causes.

By the way, I never heard VPW teach that cancer is a devil spirit or that a person with cancer is possessed. What I have in my notes from the AC was that a DS causes cancer. I don't know about all that, but I do know this: Cancer is an evil, destructive, life-stealing disease, so if I had to guess from which side of the spiritual aisle it originated, my money's on the dark side.

[WordWolf]

His Death Certificate says the cause of death was

"metastatic melanoma of the liver" and "ocular melanoma,"

which means the cause of death was cancer of the liver and eye.

Here's what the experts known as the American Cancer Society say:

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/ped_10.asp

"Tobacco and Cancer.

Smoking damages nearly every organ in the human body, is linked to at least 10 different cancers, and accounts for some 30% of all cancer deaths."

So, tobacco is a known carcinogen (cancer-causing agent), and damages nearly every organ.

That would include the eye, the liver, or both.

In case someone needs that specified, however....

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=10150

"Although studies across the globe have examined the link between smoking and hepatocellular carcinoma (HCC), the most common form of liver cancer, little research has been done in North America, where liver cancer is on the rise. Researchers at the Indiana University School of Medicine found that a history of smoking significantly increased the risk of liver cancer. Investigators compared the records of patients diagnosed with HCC to chronic liver disease patients who did not have HCC. Results showed that people who have more than a pack per day over ten years were more likely to develop liver cancer than their non-smoking counterparts who suffer from chronic liver disease."

""As with other organs in the body, the effects of tobacco can have damaging consequences on the liver, significantly increasing the risk of developing liver cancer," said Paul Kwo, M.D., of Indiana University and lead study author. "Smoking cessation is one major way that patients can be proactive in preventing liver cancer, especially if they already suffer from chronic liver disease."

http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monographs/vol83/volume83.pdf

Tobacco Smoking and Tobacco Smoke, Summary of Data Reported and Evaluation

(International Agency for Research on Cancer

The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) is part of the World Health Organization (WHO).)

There is now sufficient evidence to judge the association between tobacco smoking and liver cancer as causal."

As for the eye....

http://www.medem.com/medlb/article_detaill...E&sub_cat=0

(courtesy of the American Academy on Opthalmology)

They concern themselves with the occurrence of cataracts as a result of smoking, primarily.

======

What about chronic drinking of alcohol?

http://www.elc.org.uk/pages/healthimmunesystem.htm

"2. Excess alcohol

Excessive alcohol intake can harm the body's immune system in two ways. First, it produces an overall nutritional deficiency, depriving the body of valuable immune- boosting nutrients. Second, alcohol, like sugar, consumed in excess can reduce the ability of white cells to kill germs. High doses of alcohol suppress the ability of the white blood cells to multiply, inhibit the action of killer white cells on cancer cells, and lessen the ability of macrophages to produce tumour necrosis factors. One drink (the equivalent of 12 ounces of beer, 5 ounces of wine, or 1 ounces of hard liquor) does not appear to bother the immune system, but three or more drinks do. Damage to the immune system increases in proportion to the quantity of alcohol consumed. Amounts of alcohol that are enough to cause intoxication are also enough to suppress immunity. "

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa15.htm

"Alcohol can impair normal immune responses that protect the body from disease (6,7,8). Chronic alcohol consumption has been shown to reduce the number of infection-fighting white blood cells in laboratory animals (9,10,11) and in humans (12,13). Chronic alcohol ingestion or alcohol dependence can depress antibody production and other immune responses in animals (10,9) and in humans (14,15). Alcohol can suppress activities of certain immune system cells, called macrophages, that help keep the lungs free from infection (16,17). In addition, alcoholics appear to be more susceptible to bacterial infections and cancer than are nonalcoholics (18,19). Studies in animals and in humans indicate that consuming alcohol during pregnancy can decrease immune resistance in the offspring (20,21,22)."

http://www.hiv.va.gov/vahiv?page=alc-01-01

"The organ in your body that alcohol and other drugs affect most is your liver. The liver rounds up waste from chemicals that you put in your body. Those chemicals include recreational drugs as well as prescription drugs, such as your HIV medications. A weaker liver means less efficient "housekeeping" and, probably, a weaker you."

http://www.health.state.ny.us/statistics/c...bouts/liver.htm

"You can reduce your chances of getting liver cancer by consuming alcoholic beverages only in moderation."

===========

So,

we know-from reputed sources like the American Cancer Society, and the US National Institute of Health,

that drinking lots of alcohol, long-term, and smoking, long-term, are risk factors that make a person MUCH more likely

to get cancer-including cancer of the liver, and cancer of the eye- than people who don't drink or smoke.

This really shouldn't come as news to us-we should already know that both are bad for you, and can damage organs.

So, what about bright lights?

A few web-searches will show you there's almost no "hits" when looking at possible connections between

"ocular cancer" and "bright lights" or even "halogen lamps" (which someone suggested MIGHT have been present

since those supposedly have been claimed to cause SKIN cancer.) In fact, one of the few hits for either is the

speculation on the GSC.

Actors have spent decades on stage. I asked someone who's performed on stage and as a stagehand for DECADES,

and he can't even remember hearing ONE actor came down with eye cancer. That's among people who spend hour

after hour for week after week for SEVERAL MONTHS with bright lights.

But I'm supposed to believe that a man who smoked for DECADES

and drank for DECADES

and then spent 14 days among bright lights-and those lights gave him cancer.

I'd easily believe that the smoking and drinking gave him cancer, and the bright lights irritated weakened

eyes in the early stages of ocular cancer. (Why was vpw the ONLY one who was recording at the time who was

wearing ice on his eyes in-between filming?)

Until someone can find some more actors who got eye cancer supposedly from bright lights,

or from filming, I consider this speculation -and ridiculous speculation, when OBVIOUS causes are

ALREADY PRESENT.

[Linda Z]

WordWolf, I don't want to get into an argument with you, but I didn't search the Internet in general. I searched the National Library of Medicine's database of medical journals.

I found many articles that discussed the sites of metastasis from an ocular cancer. Ocular cancer frequently spreads to the liver, not the other way around.

In none of the articles whose abstracts I read was smoking ever mentioned as even an infrequent factor in the development of ocular cancer. UV exposure was. Studies show that ocular cancer is more prevalent in countries close to the equator, where sun exposure is greater than in those farther away.

Also, ocular cancer is not a common disease...I believe I read the incidence is 6 cases in a million people, so you're not going to find a ton of info when you compare it to lung cancer or breast cancer, or any other of the more common cancers.

If it helps you to further demonize VPW to think smoking and drinking caused a cancer in his eye, you're free to do so. I think his behavior was despicable enough to let us know what kind of person he was at his worst without trying to use his medical diagnosis to prove it.

Edited to add this:

Actors on a stage or filming a movie are typically looking at each other, not staring in the direction of the lighting sources. We've seen the PFAL filming set. It was small. VP was sititng or standing still, facing the lights, for extended periods, apprently not very far from them given the size of the set.

[doojable]

It really doesn't matter how he got cancer. I really don't care if monkeys flew into his eye and infected him with cancer.

I think what angers most folks is that the very fact he even had cancer was covered up.

Was a prayer vigil called for when he went in for surgery?

What about prayer for healing from the cancer?

See - we were taught this great law of believing where basically Gawdawlmighty was our puppet, but the message sent out to the masses was that der victoid was bigger than Gawd Himself. He didn't need prayer. He didn't need the Body. He was the ManoGawd!

[George Aar]

Am I evil for finding a certain poetic justice in the fact that filming of his signature product, the Raison d'etre for what WayWorld would become, was likely what eventually killed off the perverse bastard?

Yeah, I 'spose...

[WordWolf]

[i know you and I represent the two positions here on exactly what physical factors were the major

contributors to vpw getting cancer. I don't mean any malice toward you, but I do feel the need to dispute

some of what you said....]

Here's a (simplified) description of the type of cancer VPW had and how it's believed to develop.

Melanoma is a type of cancer that starts in melanocytes, which are the cells that produce melanin, a pigment of the skin, hair, and some eye tissues. People with blue eyes (which VPW had) are more susceptible to ocular melanoma than those with brown eyes, just as people with fair skin are more susceptible to melanoma of the skin, a highly malignant type of skin cancer.

It's possible that years of exposure to the harmful UV rays of the sun without the use of sunglasses could have caused (or contributed to) VPW's ocular melanoma. I don't recall ever seeing him in sunglasses, now that I think of it.

[i did. They showed some film-footage of vpw that was claimed to be him sending off the first wows.

He wore sunglasses (which made sense) and sandals with dark socks (which was amusing.)

I'm limited to how much film footage I ever saw of him outdoors during the day.

You interacted with him live, and perhaps saw him a lot of time out-of-doors, without sunglasses.

However, he DID wear them from time to time.

Has anyone heard that lots of the local farmers ended up getting eye cancer?

If someone can produce some studies on that, my position suddenly looks a lot weaker.

Sadly, I can't use the absence of such a study as proof it didn't happen- you can't prove a negative.]

However, from everything I've read, various types of bright artificial lighting also give off harmful UV rays. I'm pretty sure that the safefy standards in 1967, when PFAL was filmed, were not as stringent as they are today and that damage from the types of lighting used very well could have been a key factor in VPW's developing cancer in his eye.

I found this article online:

"Artificial Light Sources and UVR

Halogen and xenon lamps can emit UVR. Metal halide high intensity discharge (HID) lamps emit large amounts of UVR. Tungsten halogen lamps with incorporated reflectors are used extensively in work, display and home lighting. These lights emit some UVR which may be a hazard to the skin and eyes of people who remain in close proximity for long periods. In lighting applications where the lights are close to people they should be fitted with a glass cover to block the UVR emissions."

[You didn't provide a link to the article.

http://www.sickamongthepure.net/uvradiation/fluorescent.html

I question just how close "close proximity" means here, and how long a time "long periods" means here.

"Close proximity" to me means "I can pick up an umbrella and tap the light source".

From the photos in "the Way:Living in Love", the distances were much greater-effectively across a large living room.

And "long periods" to me means "at work across months nearly a year, or more than a year", if it doesn't mean more.

I question whether 14 days across the room from a halogen or xenon lamp-

which we still can't prove were in the room-

would have produced the effect spoken of in this article.

By comparison, I found this article about warnings.

http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:11545460

"The analysis based on the job exposure matrix showed a significantly increased risk of ocular melanoma in occupational groups exposed to artificial ultraviolet radiation, but not in outdoor occupational groups exposed to sunlight. An elevated risk of ocular melanoma was seen among welders (odds ratio = 7.3; 95% confidence interval = 2.6-20.1 for men), and a dose-response relationship with job duration was observed."

"CONCLUSION: Following the present study, the existence of an excess risk of ocular melanoma in welders may now be considered as established. Exposure to ultraviolet light is a likely causal agent, but a possible role of other exposures in the welding processes should not be overlooked."

Being a WELDER for YEARS is a risk for ocular melanoma.

That's a whole order of magnitude CLOSER to a light source which is BRIGHTER over MONTHS AND YEARS and not 2 weeks.]

I don't know exactly what light sources were used in the filming, but I know from witnesses present that they were exremely bright.

The symptoms of overexposre of the eyes to UVR include:

a burning and painful sensation in the eye

a sensitivity to light

the sensation of a foreign object in the eye, sometimes described as sand in the eye

tearing

If I remember correctly, these are the kinds of symptoms Mrs. W described when I heard her speaking on this subject

[Question.

Positing the existence of a studio with lights that give off large amounts of UV light.

Positing a man with fair skin and light eyes-supposedly more sensitive to UV light- works there.

Positing he works there for 2 weeks, and receives large amounts of UV light, enough to hurt his eyes.

Would not this same man be getting SUNBURN ON HIS FACE after several days of exposure?

We've NEVER seen a story where vpw got SUNBURNED from filming pfal.

On the other hand, we also know that exposure to bright lights that are NOT UV lights can result in

feelings like this. Really bright, standard lightbulbs will result in burning and painful sensations,

light sensitivity, and irritation-which means tearing.

(I'm not sure about the foreign object thing, but that's pretty subjective anyway.)]

The bottom line is that it doesn't much matter what caused the disease that killed VPW. He's dead. He died of cancer, which is a physical disease with physical/environmental causes.

[Technically true. We can't even say exactly what definitely WILL and definitely WON'T cause cancer.

George Burns smoked cigars and lived to 100. Some children never smoke and die of cancer.

However, we can address what will increase and what will decrease the chances for getting cancer.]

By the way, I never heard VPW teach that canceris a devil spirit or that a person with cancer is possessed. What I have in my notes from the AC was that a DS causes cancer. I don't know about all that, but I do know this: Cancer is an evil, destructive, life-stealing disease, so if I had to guess from which side of the spiritual aisle it originated, my money's on the dark side.

[We live in a fallen world, in fallen bodies, and are exposed to dangerous things in the air we breathe, and the food

we eat. All of those, I would trace, ultimately, to malefic causes. That's far from saying a demon is immediately present at every

instance of cancer.

And if vpw was 1/2 the man he was putting forth he was, he should have been radiating anti-demon presence for several feet

around him. This should have made it nearly impossible for demons to enter the same ROOM with him.

His "demonic activity causes cancer" idea is incompatible with the image he put forth of himself.]

[doojable]

I'm going to add some...

When we were in twi we searched for a "why" to everything. "How did we open the door for the debbil to get a foothold???"

So while the average person, regardless of religious beliefs, who got a flat tire on the way to work just got out, cussed a little, changed the tire and went on his or her merry way. The twi believer first went through mental gymnastics wondering why... why did this happen?... what wrong turn did he or she miss?... what first thought did they miss?... did Gawd tell her not to have that second cup of coffee so that she would have time to get this tire changed?...

Then he or she finally changed the tire. Maybe then that believer settled into the "I must have missed a big accident down the road. Gawd was taking care of me after all."

Isn't this the same mentality? Vp was a human. Humans get cancer. Period.

The only difference is that most folks tell people what's going on and ask for support and prayer (assuming they believe in prayer.)

I think how the subject of vp's cancer was handled in twi points more to what der victoid truly believed and didn't believe regarding healing and believing in general. Either that or (even worse) maintaining his "untouchable" image was more important to him than opening up to the masses that he needed help.

[Linda Z]

Dooj, I agree. However, the word at HQ around the time of his death wasn't that he didn't need prayer. It was that he didn't want prayer, which sorta ties into WB's "Why did VP commit suicide?" thread.

In searching the medical journals re: ocular cancer, I came across one article that talked about the high rate of depression in patients who've had an eye removed. Depression coupled with knowing he had a life-threatening disease (because the cancer had already spread to his liver, and I'm sure the prognosis was dismal), plus the BOT basically blowing him off certainly could have sapped his will to live, I'd think. I think he wanted to die at that point, although I wouldn't call it suicide.

[doojable]

Dooj, I agree. However, the word at HQ around the time of his death wasn't that he didn't need prayer. It was that he didn't want prayer, which sorta ties into WB's "Why did VP commit suicide?" thread.

In searching the medical journals re: ocular cancer, I came across one article that talked about the high rate of depression in patients who've had an eye removed. Depression coupled with knowing he had a life-threatening disease (because the cancer had already spread to his liver, and I'm sure the prognosis was dismal), plus the BOT basically blowing him off certainly could have sapped his will to live, I'd think. I think he wanted to die at that point, although I wouldn't call it suicide.

I stand corrected LindaZ. I wasn't really involved with twi very closely when he died. I was busy rehearsing my final departure from Wayworld. I got a phone call telling me what happened.

Still, given the promoted teachings - not wanting prayer? How many "lesser" folks were chided for this kind of refusal?

[Linda Z]

I'm not saying it was right for people to be criticized for "not believing."

TWI's double standard was as apparent in VPW's death as it was in most other situations.

[doojable]

I'm not saying it was right for people to be criticized for "not believing."

I don't think you implied that at all.

TWI's double standard was as apparent in VPW's death as it was in most other situations.

Sick and sad - but true.

[Twinky]

Or put another way, even when VPW clearly had a need - he hadn't the respect for the Body of believers he had trained / the household / call it what you will - to turn to them for prayer. It wasn't worth him spitting in their direction (LOL). Not even worth spitting in their collective eyes.

Nor would he let (one of) them spit in his eye - you know, the spittle of a holy man was believed to cure eye diseases. Like JC did. (Or maybe that did happen - but we've never heard about it.)

[Ron G.]

It's becoming evident that Pat Robertson, Walter Cronkite and Tom Brokaw all have more clout with God than VPW since they all have probably spent more time under the lights.

Of course they aren't great MOG's, so the adversary wouldn't attack them in such dreadful ways...which brings up the question of why God didn't deliver VP from the attack of the enemy....either way, God must love them more than VPW....right?

I'm calling BS on this. I can't contribute anything over WordWolf's contribution, which is quite accurate, IMHO, except to say studio lights have been in use for decades and decades. Yes, they're very bright and yes, they're hot (which probably contributes more to eye irritation and dryness than UV), but I'm convinced VPW's claim is specious.

Rank unbelievers using the lights to no ill effect.

That story is just absurd, yet it still circulates among some offshoots. The myth of VPW's mogginess seems to continue unabated in some circles.

HACK PTUI!

[Twinky]

So, Ron, does that mean you agree about the fish hook or have something to add about that ... reason for removal of the eye?

[Ron G.]

It's becoming evident that Pat Robertson, Walter Cronkite and Tom Brokaw all have more clout with God than VPW since they all have probably spent more time under the lights.

Of course they aren't great MOG's, so the adversary wouldn't attack them in such dreadful ways...which brings up the question of why God didn't deliver VP from the attack of the enemy....either way, God must love them more than VPW....right?

I'm calling BS on this. I can't contribute anything over WordWolf's contribution, which is quite accurate, IMHO, except to say studio lights have been in use for decades and decades. Yes, they're very bright and yes, they're hot (which probably contributes more to eye irritation and dryness than UV), but I'm convinced VPW's claim is specious.

Rank unbelievers using the lights to no ill effect.

That story is just absurd, yet it still circulates among some offshoots. The myth of VPW's mogginess seems to continue unabated in some circles.

HACK PTUI!

[Twinky]

So, Ron, what's your take on the fish hook story? Do you accept that, then?

[waterbuffalo]

Or put another way, even when VPW clearly had a need - he hadn't the respect for the Body of believers he had trained / the household / call it what you will - to turn to them for prayer. It wasn't worth him spitting in their direction (LOL). Not even worth spitting in their collective eyes.

Nor would he let (one of) them spit in his eye - you know, the spittle of a holy man was believed to cure eye diseases. Like JC did. (Or maybe that did happen - but we've never heard about it.)

Well, actually I was there when he did ask for prayer. It was summer at HQ. The year was 1983. Setting was the dining room. Time around 2pm. I remember because in rez corps and staff all came. VP was talking to everyone from the back of the dining room. Heavy. Told us about his eye. Then, went into how he was so upset before the operation because in the old testament the high priest couldn't make whatever--an offering or something--for the people for their sins if he had a deformity. Said they could no longer stand in the gap for the people because the priest was then disqualified because of deformity. He said that was why he was worried about having the operation, but then realized in the new testament that JC made an offering once and for all for the believers and he didn't need to be concerned anymore. Talked about how many years he'd stood in the gap for us, the corps and believers, and asked us to then stand in the gap for him--all the while crying and imploring us to do that for him. It was very moving and he seemed pretty depressed.

Edited August 16, 2008 by waterbuffalo

[Twinky]

WB, that's good to know. However, this is after the event. Do you know if he asked for prayer for healing, BEFORE the operation to remove the eye?

The things you said about him being "damaged" and therefore not able to stand before God as High Priest (cough) I have heard before - maybe it was recounted by LCM in his taped class, whatever it was called, his Birth-to-Corps recital.

I recall the account of VPW's concerns relating to the operation; I don't recall ever hearing that there was any prayer request prior to the op. What a hole that would blow, in the Law of Believing! And no-one talked about glass eyes when presenting PFAL to newbies, ie, how the Law of Believing actually DID NOT work as VPW claimed it did.

Hooked us and reeled us in. Overlooked the hook in his own eye. To paraphrase just a little.

[Ron G.]

So, Ron, does that mean you agree about the fish hook or have something to add about that ... reason for removal of the eye?

I don't know or care anything about a fish hook. It doesn't really matter save to say we were all BS'd.

It really doesn't matter how he got cancer. I really don't care if monkeys flew into his eye and infected him with cancer.

I think what angers most folks is that the very fact he even had cancer was covered up.

That pretty much sums it up for me.

Am I evil for finding a certain poetic justice in the fact that filming of his signature product, the Raison d'etre for what WayWorld would become, was likely what eventually killed off the perverse bastard?

Yeah, I 'spose...

George,

I don't think it's necessarily so, but yeah, I agree...it would most certainly be poetic justice. Who knows, maybe old perverts have an unusally high sensitivity to bright lights. I do recall hearing in TWI many times over how the cockroaches would scatter when the light was turned on. Maybe VP's demise was illustrative of why.

For the record, although I was never particularly a VP fan or apologist, I was kinda indifferent to the whole thing, mostly thinking him an eccentric old buffoon that had lost his way somewhere down the line, UNTIL I read Groucho's post about what VP said regarding his daughters and their nipples. When that was corroborated by other posters, that "tore the sheet" for me.

Thanks Groucho et al! Ya done me a service!

Does anyone know why my previous post appears twice here?

[now I see]

It was summer at HQ. The year was 1983.

Does anyone know the timeline when exactly VP got his eye removed and how long in advance it was really bothering him?

I wonder if the reason why he stepped down from running the ministry and chose a successor, and allowed his direct controll over the BOT to be given up, had anything to do with an early diagnosis of tumors and/or ocular cancer?

WaterBuffalo, that speech he gave at lunch sounds like a classic narcissist's self centered pleas for attention and sympathy, with the classic mean spirited twists of guilt inducing manipulative whinings about disapointment in others for their lack of loyalty and support, while indulging in self aggrandizing claims when comparing himself to OT high priests (as if!), while promoting the illusion that he actually stood in the gap for people, when in fact he was the chief abuser!  What a mass of rationalizations!  

Unbelievable, he should have been begging for our forgiveness, not even the prospect of death and cancer could humble this man, his words always came with a pricetag, even when he taught the bible, even in death and even after, from the grave, thanks to POOP.

[rhino]

I don't see other actors or musicians that had to put ice packs on their eyes after the light they were exposed to. it seems he did some damage ... but was able to see OK later. Still, it is firmly in the category of "we don't KNOW".

It does fit the pattern of gas on the snow pumps ... so sure, he likely attributed it to something noble sounding. But since we don't know, why try to make some big fat claim that "we" do?

As Linda said, it is rare for cancer to move into the eye from other places, apparently ... so we don't have much to go on. The fishhook story seems fishy, but hey... fishing on Drambuie is a tricky endeavor ...

WW said

Has anyone heard that lots of the local farmers ended up getting eye cancer?

If someone can produce some studies on that, my position suddenly looks a lot weaker.

Sadly, I can't use the absence of such a study as proof

it didn't happen- you can't prove a negative.

Why is that sad? ... I perceive bias .. WW is looking for a certain result... After all the scientific quotes, it ends with surmising about anecdotal evidence.

Has anyone heard of farmers that have to put ice packs on their eyes after coming in from farming? I knew lotsa old farmers with very red necks .. never ice packs on the eyes ... agree with WW's results if you want, he is looking for a desired result and is sad if he can't find it ... that is not the scientific method.

Linda mentioned a couple pertinent bits of data. Increased occurrence near the equator, for example.

It seems possible to me there was some trauma to vp's eyes from the filming ... no idea if that left any permanent scarring that may have been a "weak area" for later cancer. Quite possibly smoking and alcohol were contributing weakening factors ... it is inconclusive. Most likely vp did not know "THE cause".

Still, why pretend to have scientific evidence when there is none ... that seems needy .. or something. Is there really a need to have all results fit the mission at GSC?

The evidence is vp died pretty young, from something he claimed was caused by devil spirits, sometimes at least. It seems he tried to cover for the cancer ... he died mostly alone and alienated ... but he had a lot of years where the way world was his oyster ... I guess ...

As Linda pointed out, ocular melanoma is very rare ... and it is not known what causes cancer ... except here at GSC

to me the bright light from filming story seems possible, though given vp's character,the made up version seems to fit better. But this need to have to come up with evidence where none exists only dilutes the many valid arguments against the cult stuff.

Now I see states relevant points ... regardless of the real cause, we know he was self absorbed to the end. Her statements seem to indicate maybe he was "clinically delusional" .. or whatever the real term would be. Why else the need to show how he was sold out by his inner sanctum?

The moral of the story ... don't be a cult leader ...