I just got back from a loved one's funeral. She died of metastatic cancer which included her liver.
WW I'm not going there with you. His name is clearly written on the death certificate. You could always ask him yourself.
One thing I did notice about VPW was that in his last teaching, which I saw on VHS, he was white as a sheet. So was my loved one. It indicates severe anemia. She had lost weight over over a year, but she bloated a good bit in the last couple of weeks.
Morphine, oxycodone, etc. are easy enough to accidentally overdose. My family member had many visitors, and someone always stayed the night, and there were people there who thought they knew a great deal more than they did.
When my aunt died several years ago, in hospice care, the hospice nurse gave her what looked like to me very large doses of viscous Valium by injection. It probably helped depress her central nervous system. Was it murder or suicide? I didn't look at it that way at the time. She had, as they say, actively entered the dying process. I mean, what's the use? Is it right to withhold pain medication in the hopes of more conscious suffering?
My oh my, haven't we moved on a long way from a fish hook...
...
Now there seems to be speculation that he was poisoned and the doctor certifying the death faked the cause of death.
Now back to the fish hook. Perhaps.
Considering the ocular cancer ... I'm not biting on the fish hook.
You said at the start
"But as well as that, I don't doubt that filming under bright lights may have caused injury in the OTHER eye, or some damage which may have led to cancer."
Both eyes probably had the same damage ... it seems quite possible if one had it, so did the other at a later date. (even if it was not from the filming, though it seems specific damage would increase the odds)
Putting the Seattle oncologist (who said VP was not healthy) in the odds with the other eye getting cancer ... leaves us mostly wondering why Seattle ... a specialist perhaps, or just to keep it quiet? Or was it a "believer" oncologist, since George knew him?
A fish hook story would be better than admitting to cancer, which would be damaging to the organization as well as to vp. CEO's tend to keep their health private I think, lest it give people doubt about the company's future. Perhaps VP was clever enough to spread the story through a more honest person, though it doesn't seem to have been very wide spread.
As I recall, CG said vp kept asking what time it was, before he died. It seems he had cancer, but how that was dealt with at the very end seems the question, which might be more a privacy issue than a conspiracy theory. It doesn't seem he died in great pain. (I see now I see & WG mentions morphine, it seems logical to me he had some narcotic at the end)
Wasn't there a message that went out before vp died? Like a day or less? Did he choose the time, more or less? That would seem a smart choice to me.
If ocular melanoma was the cause of death, does that mean it was in the "good eye"? Or did removing the one eye not remove the cancer?
A melanoma that is not easily seen on the skin can do its deadly work for a while before it is detected and removed. His had already metastasized internally. When I worked in a cancer hospital, I had a conversation with the secretary of the ophthalmologist who specialized in ocular melanoma, and she told me that it likes the liver and it seems that ocular melanoma almost always ends up there if not caught in time.
Perhaps it also metastasized to the brain, accounting for the lack of coherency of thought and speech. However, narcotic medications can also do that.
Liver cancer of any type is excruciatingly painful, as is pancreatic malignancy.
Personally, I'm in favor of making the hospice patient as comfortable as possible, simply because I do not see the benefit of suffering nor do I believe that suffering a long, slow, painful death is a grace from God and that the decedent then shares in the cross of Christ.
Personally, I'm in favor of making the hospice patient as comfortable as possible, simply because I do not see the benefit of suffering ...
Yeah, extended pain and misery seems wrong ... and there are certainly cases where someone on narcotics gets taken advantage of ...
So on the death certificate, would the initial cause of complications leading to death be stated, or the final cause (or final solution)? In VP's case, would the ocular melanoma be listed, even if that actual site of cancer had been removed, and the liver cancer was actually the late cause, or even the morphine?
I'm not so concerned about vp, but everyone should consider the scenario for their loved ones or themselves. Expressing your desires to someone and giving them power of attorney for health care may save you or them from suffering. Was VP's wife not there at the end?
I'm not a doctor, and I wasn't privy to the details re: VPW's ocular melanoma. None of us can say for sure what caused it, but we can make reasonable assumptions about what logically could have caused it, based on what is known about this disease.
I'm still not trying to make a hero of VPW. Just trying to stick to the facts, as objectively as I can.
What's tricky is that the disease is so rare that there have been a lot of small studies and case reports published about it, but not many big, statistically powerful studies. Some researchers have concluded that UV light and mechanisms associated with its effects on the human eye are clearly risk factors for the development of ocular melanoma; others aren't sure. Controversies about the causes of diseases, particularly cancers, run rampant in the medical/scientific community. There is so much we don't know about the human body, how it works, and what can go wrong with it.
Here are some additional articles I've found that support the possibility that damage to VPW's eyes from those bright lights could have eventually led to his developing ocular melanoma. [Note: Both "uveal melanoma" and "choroidal melanoma," mentioned below, are ocular melanomas; "uveal" and "choroidal simply describe the part of the eye in which the cancer occurred.]
Journal of Photochemistry and Photobiology B: Biology
Volume 64, Issues 2-3, 15 November 2001, Pages 136-143
The human eye is constantly exposed to sunlight and artificial lighting. Therefore the eye is exposed to UV-B (295–320 nm), UV-A (320–400 nm), and visible light (400–700 nm). Light is transmitted through the eye and then signals the brain directing both sight and circadian rhythm. Therefore light absorbed by the eye must be benign. Damage to the young and adult eye by intense ambient light is avoided because the eye is protected by a very efficient antioxidant system. In addition, there are protective pigments such as the kynurenines, located in the human lens, and melanin, in the uvea and retina, which absorb ambient radiation and dissipate its energy without causing damage. After middle age there is a decrease in the production of antioxidants and antioxidant enzymes. At the same time, the protective pigments are chemically modified (lenticular 3-hydroxy kynurenine pigment is enzymatically converted into the phototoxic chromophore xanthurenic acid; melanin is altered from an antioxidant to pro-oxidant) and fluorescent chromophores (lipofuscin) accumulate to concentrations high enough to produce reactive oxygen species. We have known for some time that exposure to intense artificial light and sunlight either causes or exacerbates age-related ocular diseases. We now know many of the reasons for these effects, and with this knowledge methods are being developed to interfere with these damaging processes.
Uveal Melanoma in Relation to Ultraviolet Light Exposure and Host Factors1 [Note: Uveal melanoma is one type of ocular melanoma.]
We conducted a case-control interview study among 1277 subjects (407 patients, 870 controls selected by using random digit dial) in 11 western United States to determine whether uveal melanoma and cutaneous melanoma shared common risk factors. After adjustment for other factors, the risk of uveal melanoma was increased for those with green, gray, or hazel eyes [relative risk (RR) = 2.5, P < 0.001] or blue eyes (RR = 2.2, P < 0.001) when compared to brown. A tendency to sunburn after 0.5 h midday summar sun exposure increased risk for uveal melanoma (burn with tanning RR = 1.5, P = 0.02; burn with little tanning RR = 1.8, P < 0.001; burn with no tanning RR = 1.7, P = 0.002); as did exposure to UV or black lights (RR = 3.7, P = 0.003); and welding burn, sunburn of the eye, or snow blindness (RR = 7.2, P < 0.001). An association with uveal melanoma was also noted with an increasing number of large nevi (P = 0.04 for trend), although the individual risk estimates were not remarkable. These data suggest that host factors and exposure to UV light are risk factors for uveal melanoma. 1
This research was sponsored by NIH Grant CA37950 and in part by American Cancer Society Grant PDT-321 and NIH Grant EYO7504
And for those convinced that VPW’s liver cancer spread to his eye, and not vice versa, the one really large study on ocular melanoma to date showed the liver to be the most common site of metastsis from an ocular melanoma. I saw another study, but forgot to cut and paste it, that showed an even higher rate of spread from the eye to the liver. I didn't find one single case in which the cancer was found to be spread from the liver to the eye.
Development of metastatic disease after enrollment in the COMS trials for treatment of choroidal melanoma: Collaborative Ocular Melanoma Study Group Report No. 26.
OBJECTIVE: To describe the time between treatment for choroidal melanoma and first diagnosis of metastatic disease, sites of metastasis, treatments for metastasis, and time between diagnosis of metastasis and death. DESIGN: Prospective, longitudinal follow-up of patients diagnosed with choroidal melanoma who were enrolled in 2 randomized trials conducted by the Collaborative Ocular Melanoma Study Group. METHODS: Systemic and laboratory evaluations were performed during follow-up according to a standard protocol for 2320 patients enrolled in the Collaborative Ocular Melanoma Study trials without evidence of melanoma metastasis or other primary cancer at baseline. RESULTS: Seven hundred thirty-nine patients were diagnosed with at least 1 site of metastasis during follow-up after treatment for choroidal melanoma. Five- and 10-year cumulative metastasis rates were 25% (95% confidence interval, 23%-27%) and 34% (95% confidence interval, 32%-37%), respectively. Liver was the most common site (89%). The death rate following the report of melanoma metastasis was 80% at 1 year (95% confidence interval, 77%-83%) and 92% at 2 years (95% confidence interval, 89%-94%). Overall survival after metastasis did not vary by baseline size of primary tumor nor treatment for metastasis (when known). Long-term survival after diagnosis of metastasis was uncommon; only 8 patients survived 5 or more years. CONCLUSION: Metastasis rate increased significantly with increasing primary tumor dimensions at time of patient enrollment. Prognosis after metastatic disease remains poor. Effective methods are needed to prevent, diagnose, and treat metastasis from choroidal melanoma.
This isn't directed to any one poster here but... why does it matter so much HOW he lost the eye?
It's well known that TWI often covered up issues to make the ministry look good. I don't think anyone would argue that we were often lied (intentionally or unintentionally) to about real issues.
It's well known there was a myriad of contradictions between what was taught and how leadership actually "lived" the Word. Very few of the upper echelon walked the talk and even saying "very few" is giving credit to a lot of people.
It's well known that there are many "urban legends" about VPW, like he was a spiritual Paul Bunyan or something. Who knows what the real truth is about how/why he lost his eye.
Maybe it's because I was part of TWI II or something... maybe it's because I never met VPW or was around during this but... I just don't get what the big fuss is about, really. None of it is news. It's certainly not the greatest secret in the world today...
This isn't directed to any one poster here but... why does it matter so much HOW he lost the eye?
It seems the point is ... GSC should be sure to stick to the facts. (or the GSC community as a body)
The tendency is to say it is urban legend that the damage he had from the filming was related to the cancer ... But we don't have any evidence of that ... and there may actually be indications that either scarring or damage from the lights COULD be related to the later cancer.
So that possible "urban legend" can not be debunked. No one really knows when the cancer started or the cause.
If the insightful at GSC make unsubstantiated claims ... it makes the other facts seems less legitimate.
The first had accounts from the many women, or second hand from others that knew from other women .. of the many other sexual attacks or intimidations ... fall in another category. They are a body of evidence on their own, so are substantiated to the degree you believe so great a cloud of witnesses.
This thread started with the fish hook rumor ... but seems really about debunking the filming/cancer link.
I'd say the rumor is not debunked, not substantiated ... but the possiblity seems credible.
Another question that arose ... did VP really say ALL cancer was from a devil spirit ... as that has been part of the associated VP smear ... that he must have been possessed according to his own doctrine. I only vaguely recall some teaching about a spirit, because a cancer had life of its own. But maybe that smear is not substantiated either.
This isn't directed to any one poster here but... why does it matter so much HOW he lost the eye?
It's well known that TWI often covered up issues to make the ministry look good. I don't think anyone would argue that we were often lied (intentionally or unintentionally) to about real issues.
It's well known there was a myriad of contradictions between what was taught and how leadership actually "lived" the Word. Very few of the upper echelon walked the talk and even saying "very few" is giving credit to a lot of people.
It's well known that there are many "urban legends" about VPW, like he was a spiritual Paul Bunyan or something. Who knows what the real truth is about how/why he lost his eye.
Maybe it's because I was part of TWI II or something... maybe it's because I never met VPW or was around during this but... I just don't get what the big fuss is about, really. None of it is news. It's certainly not the greatest secret in the world today...
Hiya, Chas
I get what you are saying.
To someone who was not around during VPW's tenure, the importance is probably not so obvious.
Those of us who were around during the VP days held the man in very high regard.
To me, at least, it's really more about credibility and integrity than it is about how he lost his eye.
I never had the slightest idea he died of cancer until I read it here.
I remember inquiring at the time only to be given a cold shoulder.
The cause of death was very obviously obscured and hidden.
That's a real, real big deal (and dilemma) for those of us who sat through his teachings ramblings on devil spirits and cancer in the Advanced Class. He taught that cancer is a devil spirit in the 1973 AC. In that same class he also taught that devil spirits were responsible for certain behavioral traits, such as addiction, alcoholism, sexual predation, delusions of grandieur and other traits that he himself possessed.
Then, hearing him portray himself as some sort of martyr by saying " I gave my eye for The Word! What have you given?" induces a whole new level of disgust for the deceptions and betrayals.
That's probably not a very good explanation but at least it explains why, for me, it's a big deal.
Well, it IS a huge deal! The reason being, imo, is that VPW`s teaching about *cancer being a devil spirit*, was used to hurt a lot of people.
Imagine fighting the battle for your life alone and friendless, abandoned by your family and believers because they have been taught to believe that you now have a devil spirit. Your life is dissected by everyone to figure out where, how when, why you blew it.
Your closest friends told they can have no contact with you. You die alone and friendless. Immersed in shame, condemnation and self loathing
Yeah, this really happened, just when you need the support and love from your family from the body of Christ , YOU have been cut off.
Imagine the shame, the condemnation, the bewilderment of not knowing how you even became possessed. The shame of not believing big enough to over come it.
Now old vpw gets cancer. We are in a real pickle. VPW was either possesses as he taught, or he was wrong in one of his most fundamental teachings.
Next biggie, he was either incapable of operating his *law of believing* or he was wrong when he taught believing equals receiving.
Any one of these issues was enough to collapse his house of cards.
The BIGGEST issue of all perhaps, is that rather than come to grips and honestly addressing these issues....they chose to hide his affliction.
Had he been honest, the condemnation, the blame and self loathing of people who needed support during the most frightening times of their life....would have evaporated. They could have died peacefully surrounded by friends and family members.
No no, had to preserve the mogs infallibility. Mustn`t cause people to doubt the accuracy of his teachings.
Suuuuuure....Tell the folks he died of a broken heart. No accountability for erroneous doctrines that have cause so much pain. No accountability for the shame and condemnation of sick people everywhere searching their souls to figure out where they blew it. No accountability for the people who died trying desperately to *believe* their way back to health.
The story is...HE decided to die because we all broke his heart. WE were blamed for the death of THE man of God for our day and time..THE man that God promised to teach the word like it had never been taught before.
Damned right it was a BFD Chaz, Any idea how awfull it felt to be blamed for the death of our beloved teacher?
Damned right that even in twi`s mad scramble to squirm out from responsibility, the poster has a valid point...according to twi history, when examined, the excuse given was SUICIDE!
Which incidentaly is yet another devil spirit according to vpw.
So much heart ache and pain could have been alleviated had these guys just had the integrity and courage to be honest with the tens of thousands of people who looked to them for spiritual guidance, and the thousands who still today try to believe and apply erroneous doctrines and pratices.
In my AC73 class notes at HQ, I wrote "ALL cancer is a devil spirit". "All" is capitalized, indicating to me that it was stressed by VPW. I apoloigize profusely to anyone to whom I later passed that error on to in my teachings. That teaching is from the pit of hell if there is a hell.
Beyond that I don't give a flip what caused his cancer, cost his eye, or otherwise proves his buttholey existance and sorry excuse of a man.
So much heart ache and pain could have been alleviated had these guys just had the integrity and courage to be honest with the tens of thousands of people who looked to them for spiritual guidance, and the thousands who still today try to believe and apply erroneous doctrines and pratices.
This morning, I've been thinking.. the manner they withheld these little details and such, were they not treating me like a CHILD? and of course the rest of the ministry that wasn't involved in the inner circle?
were they so deathly afraid that little "johnny" would get upset, and go play somewhere else?
I was twenty years old at the time.. and there were those in their thirties and forties.. don't their brains and great wordagawd they supposedly got count for SOMETHING?
Seems they didn't trust us.. or could trust us with the facts..
and every effort was geared to keep a sick, dysfunctional, incestuous "family" together, all like it always supposedly had been..
Chas, I understand what you're saying, but Rhino nailed it for me when he said:
If the insightful at GSC make unsubstantiated claims ... it makes the other facts seems less legitimate.
That's exactly why I posted what I did in this thread.
There's plenty that was and is wrong with twi, its founder, and many of its past and current "leaders." If we stick to the facts (and the facts, IMO, include the testimonies of the people harmed by their twi involvement, in case anyone feels inclined to pop in here and say otherwise), this place has a lot more credibility.
HAP, I didn't take the AC until '78, which would probbly explain why my notes differ from yours. My notes say he said cancer is "caused by," not "is," a devil spirit. He might have changed what he taught on that, I don't know. I do remember his talking about this at some length, in addition to what was on the video of the class, but I don't know if my notes reflect what he said on the video or his live comments.
Either way, I agree with Rascal that it was a damn shame that people were led to condemn themselves for "lack of believing" or to shun others for the same stupid reason--although I will say I never heard it taught that to have cancer one was possessed.
I want to clarify something I said earllier in the thread, that my money's on the dark side as to who ultimately caused this destructive disease. I do think there's a whole spiritual realm out there where lots is going on that we only get glimpses of--both light and darkness. But I'm highly skeptical that there are these spiritual entities running around zapping individual people with cancer. The way we eat, the toxins in and damage to our bodies from crap in our environment, genetics, and many, many other factors cause diseases.
Amen! Wherever it comes from environmental, spiritual, mental, people fighting this battle need the prayers, love and support of their family, of the body of Christ.
Not to be ashamed, to feel dirty, contaminated, unlovable, unworthy, weak because of ones lack of believing.
It was a cruelty that never need have happened, if once confronted with the fallibility of our doctrines, they had been courageous to say, hey you know? We might have made a mistake here.
So much heart ache and pain could have been alleviated had these guys just had the integrity and courage to be honest with the tens of thousands of people who looked to them for spiritual guidance, and the thousands who still today try to believe and apply erroneous doctrines and pratices.
Isn't that the heart of it all, tho?
Really...
It was up to THEM to be HONEST with US - the believers.
Now we're trying to hash it out here in cyberspace...
But it's not just this issue - it's a million other issues to the tenth power, isn't it? This is just one of many.
Maybe because it's "one of many", it's easier to say, "Yup, they lied."
Chas, I understand what you're saying, but Rhino nailed it for me when he said:
That's exactly why I posted what I did in this thread.
I want to clarify something I said earllier in the thread, that my money's on the dark side as to who ultimately caused this destructive disease. I do think there's a whole spiritual realm out there where lots is going on that we only get glimpses of--both light and darkness. But I'm highly skeptical that there are these spiritual entities running around zapping individual people with cancer. The way we eat, the toxins in and damage to our bodies from crap in our environment, genetics, and many, many other factors cause diseases.
Considering the man's lifestyle, I'd probably bet money that the cancer was one of several co-morbidities the man had going on.... let's not forget he was a smoker and a drinker... neither of those items are sold in healthfood stores or prescribed by your doctor....
BUMP on this thread for the benefit of others who have come to the Cafe recently, and as it seems relevant to another resurrected thread currently on display.
Did VPW lose his eye to a fish hook?
Or to cancer?
Or one to a fish hook and one to cancer?
Whatever...the man lost an eye and the man is dead from cancer. And nobody at TWI was honest enough about any of it. It's GSC telling the other side of the story that has exposed the reason for his death.
I don't care why he died.
I do care that TWI still isn't honest in its dealings with its people.
BUMP on this thread for the benefit of others who have come to the Cafe recently, and as it seems relevant to another resurrected thread currently on display.
Did VPW lose his eye to a fish hook?
Or to cancer?
Or one to a fish hook and one to cancer?
Whatever...the man lost an eye and the man is dead from cancer. And nobody at TWI was honest enough about any of it. It's GSC telling the other side of the story that has exposed the reason for his death.
I don't care why he died.
I do care that TWI still isn't honest in its dealings with its people.
He taught that cancer was a devil spirit. Not that it was caused by a devil spirit, but that it was, in fact, a devil spirit in itself. So, was Wierwille possessed, or was his teaching wrong? Wait a minute! His teaching can't be wrong since what he taught was the greatest revelation of God's Word since the first century. Wierwille received it from God Himself. So he must have been...no wait! VP was the Man of God and therefore could not have been possessed! So, he was neither possessed and he didn't teach wrongly. Confusing, isn't it? Either way, Wierwille and TWI lose.
I'm not sure if the folks who weren't around while Wierwille walked amongst mortal man can appreciate just how "heavy" this really is. He literally stood up there in front of us and very matter-of-factly talked about how cancer has life in itself and therefore a spirit. He also talked about how disciplined his mind was and that he entertained no thoughts contrary to The Word. He also said repeatedly that God promised to teach him the Word better than it's been know since the First Century if he would teach it to others. Then he died of cancer. The only thing TWI could do was suppress the cause of death. It's public record, though. Anyone can see it for themselves.
He taught that cancer was a devil spirit. Not that it was caused by a devil spirit, but that it was, in fact, a devil spirit in itself. So, was Wierwille possessed, or was his teaching wrong? Wait a minute! His teaching can't be wrong since what he taught was the greatest revelation of God's Word since the first century. Wierwille received it from God Himself. So he must have been...no wait! VP was the Man of God and therefore could not have been possessed! So, he was neither possessed and he didn't teach wrongly. Confusing, isn't it? Either way, Wierwille and TWI lose.
Here's a radical idea, BA. Both of the above are true. How?
Cancer is a devil spirit.
Saint Vic never said which god he was recieving his revelation from. Perhaps the same one that dispatched the cancer devil spirit? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
For what it's worth now, I have no idea what the cause of VPW's death was, I've understood it to be cancer or cancer related, based on the death certificate and other information I've heard.
As many of us know and many more will as time passes, death is one of the most difficult and revealing events, if I can call it that with all due respect, that we experience in life. It can be a time of confusion and intense emotions. Understandably.
What should have been an orderly but difficult time became masked in misinformation, lack of information and an apparent inability to cope with all of it. It showed a lot - you'd think that in the end barriers would come down, hearts would open and communication - though it be hard - would flow. But no, quite the opposite. At that end the heads of the Way struggled and floundered as bad as - worse really - than anyone anywhere would or could. It was like a slow but growing silent avalanche come crashing down around. And then - the pomp and ceremony that accompanied "moving forward". But that avalanche wasn't settled, just paused.
Cancer - a point of definition: cancer and "possession" weren't taught as synonymous. Cancer was considered caused by a "devil spirit" as it was considered to have "life of it's own" and all life, in Way doctrine, is spirit of some kind, though not all life would be "pneuma hagion/eternal life" spirit. Possession is a state of the mind, per the teaching, caused by a previous or existing disposition towards a mental weakness or consistent and continual behavior that would produce and promote an environment conducive to a specific kind of devil spirit. Factor in "believing" and the mix could, but not always or with a reliable expectation, produce an area of a person's "mind" that would/could slip into external suggestion and control, ie "possessed", or directed be it subtly or not so.
Cancer was taught to follow a similar physical route, where the mix of one's believing, lifestyle, habits and possibly a physical disposition or state could present the same kind of favorable environment for a "daimon" - but the "spirit" taking root and proliferating was physical and not inherently in or of the mind.
But - and this is where the whole thing continues to roil and turn - "believing" in deliverance through Jesus Christ would supercede all. As a Christian I would place my faith in That, knowing that my time is in God's hands and this life will go as it will, and as it does for everyone.
That's where, in the end, it all comes down to - no one will "believe" beyond the natural death of the body, and no one has. Jesus Christ's resurrection was wholly in God's domain and no human causes were involved and no one not even His closest followers waited expectantly for that to occur, they thought He was dead. And He was.
Everyone dies - how we get there may differ but it is what it is, for want of a better phrase regardless of what and how we believe, and other intervention or events not withstanding.
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dabobbada
I remember a similiar thread from back in the early 2000's. I felt compelled to add a new medical report that said that every adult human being generates an average of 250,000 new cancer cells a day t
waysider
Yes, you are.
Watered Garden
I just got back from a loved one's funeral. She died of metastatic cancer which included her liver.
WW I'm not going there with you. His name is clearly written on the death certificate. You could always ask him yourself.
One thing I did notice about VPW was that in his last teaching, which I saw on VHS, he was white as a sheet. So was my loved one. It indicates severe anemia. She had lost weight over over a year, but she bloated a good bit in the last couple of weeks.
Morphine, oxycodone, etc. are easy enough to accidentally overdose. My family member had many visitors, and someone always stayed the night, and there were people there who thought they knew a great deal more than they did.
When my aunt died several years ago, in hospice care, the hospice nurse gave her what looked like to me very large doses of viscous Valium by injection. It probably helped depress her central nervous system. Was it murder or suicide? I didn't look at it that way at the time. She had, as they say, actively entered the dying process. I mean, what's the use? Is it right to withhold pain medication in the hopes of more conscious suffering?
WG
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rhino
Considering the ocular cancer ... I'm not biting on the fish hook.
You said at the start
Both eyes probably had the same damage ... it seems quite possible if one had it, so did the other at a later date. (even if it was not from the filming, though it seems specific damage would increase the odds)
Putting the Seattle oncologist (who said VP was not healthy) in the odds with the other eye getting cancer ... leaves us mostly wondering why Seattle ... a specialist perhaps, or just to keep it quiet? Or was it a "believer" oncologist, since George knew him?
A fish hook story would be better than admitting to cancer, which would be damaging to the organization as well as to vp. CEO's tend to keep their health private I think, lest it give people doubt about the company's future. Perhaps VP was clever enough to spread the story through a more honest person, though it doesn't seem to have been very wide spread.
As I recall, CG said vp kept asking what time it was, before he died. It seems he had cancer, but how that was dealt with at the very end seems the question, which might be more a privacy issue than a conspiracy theory. It doesn't seem he died in great pain. (I see now I see & WG mentions morphine, it seems logical to me he had some narcotic at the end)
Wasn't there a message that went out before vp died? Like a day or less? Did he choose the time, more or less? That would seem a smart choice to me.
If ocular melanoma was the cause of death, does that mean it was in the "good eye"? Or did removing the one eye not remove the cancer?
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Watered Garden
A melanoma that is not easily seen on the skin can do its deadly work for a while before it is detected and removed. His had already metastasized internally. When I worked in a cancer hospital, I had a conversation with the secretary of the ophthalmologist who specialized in ocular melanoma, and she told me that it likes the liver and it seems that ocular melanoma almost always ends up there if not caught in time.
Perhaps it also metastasized to the brain, accounting for the lack of coherency of thought and speech. However, narcotic medications can also do that.
Liver cancer of any type is excruciatingly painful, as is pancreatic malignancy.
Personally, I'm in favor of making the hospice patient as comfortable as possible, simply because I do not see the benefit of suffering nor do I believe that suffering a long, slow, painful death is a grace from God and that the decedent then shares in the cross of Christ.
WG
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waysider
The cancer had already "metastasized".
Simply stated, that means it had spread from the initial site(the eye) and invaded other organs (the liver).
Perhaps you have seen some of the youtube posts here of Eva Cassidy.
She too fell victim to metastasized melanoma that may have been a result of the extensive time she spent working outdoors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUwTdqPkluY
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rhino
Yeah, extended pain and misery seems wrong ... and there are certainly cases where someone on narcotics gets taken advantage of ...
So on the death certificate, would the initial cause of complications leading to death be stated, or the final cause (or final solution)? In VP's case, would the ocular melanoma be listed, even if that actual site of cancer had been removed, and the liver cancer was actually the late cause, or even the morphine?
I'm not so concerned about vp, but everyone should consider the scenario for their loved ones or themselves. Expressing your desires to someone and giving them power of attorney for health care may save you or them from suffering. Was VP's wife not there at the end?
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Watered Garden
I can probably find a death certificate around here if I look, but not tonight. I think my dad's was
1. Cause of death - myocardial infarction.
2. metastatic malignant melanoma
This would be:
1. Immediate cause of death.
2. other, and possibly contributing, factors
In his case it was the chemo that caused the MI, but of course no one wanted to write THAT down.
Or if I shuffled off this mortal coil it could be
1. ????
2. Insulin dependent diabetes mellitus (which could have contributed to #1 or not)
http://www.cancerbackup.org.uk/Cancertype/...elanomaoftheeye
Link above for those who were wondering about its cause and where it starts, etc. Specifically states that exposure to UV light is one cause.
WG
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WordWolf
Found on that page in the link....
"It is known that exposure to ultraviolet (UV) rays (either from the sun or sunbeds) increases the risk of developing
melanoma of the skin.
People whose skin burns easily are most at risk: typically, people with fair skin, fair or red hair and blue eyes.
However, it is not yet known whether or not there is any link between UV ray exposure and the development of melanoma of the eye."
It specifically stated that we don't know if UV light exposure is one cause.
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Linda Z
I'm not a doctor, and I wasn't privy to the details re: VPW's ocular melanoma. None of us can say for sure what caused it, but we can make reasonable assumptions about what logically could have caused it, based on what is known about this disease.
I'm still not trying to make a hero of VPW. Just trying to stick to the facts, as objectively as I can.
What's tricky is that the disease is so rare that there have been a lot of small studies and case reports published about it, but not many big, statistically powerful studies. Some researchers have concluded that UV light and mechanisms associated with its effects on the human eye are clearly risk factors for the development of ocular melanoma; others aren't sure. Controversies about the causes of diseases, particularly cancers, run rampant in the medical/scientific community. There is so much we don't know about the human body, how it works, and what can go wrong with it.
Here are some additional articles I've found that support the possibility that damage to VPW's eyes from those bright lights could have eventually led to his developing ocular melanoma. [Note: Both "uveal melanoma" and "choroidal melanoma," mentioned below, are ocular melanomas; "uveal" and "choroidal simply describe the part of the eye in which the cancer occurred.]
Journal of Photochemistry and Photobiology B: Biology
Volume 64, Issues 2-3, 15 November 2001, Pages 136-143
The human eye is constantly exposed to sunlight and artificial lighting. Therefore the eye is exposed to UV-B (295–320 nm), UV-A (320–400 nm), and visible light (400–700 nm). Light is transmitted through the eye and then signals the brain directing both sight and circadian rhythm. Therefore light absorbed by the eye must be benign. Damage to the young and adult eye by intense ambient light is avoided because the eye is protected by a very efficient antioxidant system. In addition, there are protective pigments such as the kynurenines, located in the human lens, and melanin, in the uvea and retina, which absorb ambient radiation and dissipate its energy without causing damage. After middle age there is a decrease in the production of antioxidants and antioxidant enzymes. At the same time, the protective pigments are chemically modified (lenticular 3-hydroxy kynurenine pigment is enzymatically converted into the phototoxic chromophore xanthurenic acid; melanin is altered from an antioxidant to pro-oxidant) and fluorescent chromophores (lipofuscin) accumulate to concentrations high enough to produce reactive oxygen species. We have known for some time that exposure to intense artificial light and sunlight either causes or exacerbates age-related ocular diseases. We now know many of the reasons for these effects, and with this knowledge methods are being developed to interfere with these damaging processes.
Uveal Melanoma in Relation to Ultraviolet Light Exposure and Host Factors1 [Note: Uveal melanoma is one type of ocular melanoma.]
We conducted a case-control interview study among 1277 subjects (407 patients, 870 controls selected by using random digit dial) in 11 western United States to determine whether uveal melanoma and cutaneous melanoma shared common risk factors. After adjustment for other factors, the risk of uveal melanoma was increased for those with green, gray, or hazel eyes [relative risk (RR) = 2.5, P < 0.001] or blue eyes (RR = 2.2, P < 0.001) when compared to brown. A tendency to sunburn after 0.5 h midday summar sun exposure increased risk for uveal melanoma (burn with tanning RR = 1.5, P = 0.02; burn with little tanning RR = 1.8, P < 0.001; burn with no tanning RR = 1.7, P = 0.002); as did exposure to UV or black lights (RR = 3.7, P = 0.003); and welding burn, sunburn of the eye, or snow blindness (RR = 7.2, P < 0.001). An association with uveal melanoma was also noted with an increasing number of large nevi (P = 0.04 for trend), although the individual risk estimates were not remarkable. These data suggest that host factors and exposure to UV light are risk factors for uveal melanoma. 1
This research was sponsored by NIH Grant CA37950 and in part by American Cancer Society Grant PDT-321 and NIH Grant EYO7504
And for those convinced that VPW’s liver cancer spread to his eye, and not vice versa, the one really large study on ocular melanoma to date showed the liver to be the most common site of metastsis from an ocular melanoma. I saw another study, but forgot to cut and paste it, that showed an even higher rate of spread from the eye to the liver. I didn't find one single case in which the cancer was found to be spread from the liver to the eye.
Development of metastatic disease after enrollment in the COMS trials for treatment of choroidal melanoma: Collaborative Ocular Melanoma Study Group Report No. 26.
OBJECTIVE: To describe the time between treatment for choroidal melanoma and first diagnosis of metastatic disease, sites of metastasis, treatments for metastasis, and time between diagnosis of metastasis and death. DESIGN: Prospective, longitudinal follow-up of patients diagnosed with choroidal melanoma who were enrolled in 2 randomized trials conducted by the Collaborative Ocular Melanoma Study Group. METHODS: Systemic and laboratory evaluations were performed during follow-up according to a standard protocol for 2320 patients enrolled in the Collaborative Ocular Melanoma Study trials without evidence of melanoma metastasis or other primary cancer at baseline. RESULTS: Seven hundred thirty-nine patients were diagnosed with at least 1 site of metastasis during follow-up after treatment for choroidal melanoma. Five- and 10-year cumulative metastasis rates were 25% (95% confidence interval, 23%-27%) and 34% (95% confidence interval, 32%-37%), respectively. Liver was the most common site (89%). The death rate following the report of melanoma metastasis was 80% at 1 year (95% confidence interval, 77%-83%) and 92% at 2 years (95% confidence interval, 89%-94%). Overall survival after metastasis did not vary by baseline size of primary tumor nor treatment for metastasis (when known). Long-term survival after diagnosis of metastasis was uncommon; only 8 patients survived 5 or more years. CONCLUSION: Metastasis rate increased significantly with increasing primary tumor dimensions at time of patient enrollment. Prognosis after metastatic disease remains poor. Effective methods are needed to prevent, diagnose, and treat metastasis from choroidal melanoma.
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ChasUFarley
This isn't directed to any one poster here but... why does it matter so much HOW he lost the eye?
It's well known that TWI often covered up issues to make the ministry look good. I don't think anyone would argue that we were often lied (intentionally or unintentionally) to about real issues.
It's well known there was a myriad of contradictions between what was taught and how leadership actually "lived" the Word. Very few of the upper echelon walked the talk and even saying "very few" is giving credit to a lot of people.
It's well known that there are many "urban legends" about VPW, like he was a spiritual Paul Bunyan or something. Who knows what the real truth is about how/why he lost his eye.
Maybe it's because I was part of TWI II or something... maybe it's because I never met VPW or was around during this but... I just don't get what the big fuss is about, really. None of it is news. It's certainly not the greatest secret in the world today...
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rhino
It seems the point is ... GSC should be sure to stick to the facts. (or the GSC community as a body)
The tendency is to say it is urban legend that the damage he had from the filming was related to the cancer ... But we don't have any evidence of that ... and there may actually be indications that either scarring or damage from the lights COULD be related to the later cancer.
So that possible "urban legend" can not be debunked. No one really knows when the cancer started or the cause.
If the insightful at GSC make unsubstantiated claims ... it makes the other facts seems less legitimate.
The first had accounts from the many women, or second hand from others that knew from other women .. of the many other sexual attacks or intimidations ... fall in another category. They are a body of evidence on their own, so are substantiated to the degree you believe so great a cloud of witnesses.
This thread started with the fish hook rumor ... but seems really about debunking the filming/cancer link.
I'd say the rumor is not debunked, not substantiated ... but the possiblity seems credible.
Another question that arose ... did VP really say ALL cancer was from a devil spirit ... as that has been part of the associated VP smear ... that he must have been possessed according to his own doctrine. I only vaguely recall some teaching about a spirit, because a cancer had life of its own. But maybe that smear is not substantiated either.
Maybe we should look it up on snopes :)
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waysider
Hiya, Chas
I get what you are saying.
To someone who was not around during VPW's tenure, the importance is probably not so obvious.
Those of us who were around during the VP days held the man in very high regard.
To me, at least, it's really more about credibility and integrity than it is about how he lost his eye.
I never had the slightest idea he died of cancer until I read it here.
I remember inquiring at the time only to be given a cold shoulder.
The cause of death was very obviously obscured and hidden.
That's a real, real big deal (and dilemma) for those of us who sat through his teachings ramblings on devil spirits and cancer in the Advanced Class. He taught that cancer is a devil spirit in the 1973 AC. In that same class he also taught that devil spirits were responsible for certain behavioral traits, such as addiction, alcoholism, sexual predation, delusions of grandieur and other traits that he himself possessed.
Then, hearing him portray himself as some sort of martyr by saying " I gave my eye for The Word! What have you given?" induces a whole new level of disgust for the deceptions and betrayals.
That's probably not a very good explanation but at least it explains why, for me, it's a big deal.
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rascal
Well, it IS a huge deal! The reason being, imo, is that VPW`s teaching about *cancer being a devil spirit*, was used to hurt a lot of people.
Imagine fighting the battle for your life alone and friendless, abandoned by your family and believers because they have been taught to believe that you now have a devil spirit. Your life is dissected by everyone to figure out where, how when, why you blew it.
Your closest friends told they can have no contact with you. You die alone and friendless. Immersed in shame, condemnation and self loathing
Yeah, this really happened, just when you need the support and love from your family from the body of Christ , YOU have been cut off.
Imagine the shame, the condemnation, the bewilderment of not knowing how you even became possessed. The shame of not believing big enough to over come it.
Now old vpw gets cancer. We are in a real pickle. VPW was either possesses as he taught, or he was wrong in one of his most fundamental teachings.
Next biggie, he was either incapable of operating his *law of believing* or he was wrong when he taught believing equals receiving.
Any one of these issues was enough to collapse his house of cards.
The BIGGEST issue of all perhaps, is that rather than come to grips and honestly addressing these issues....they chose to hide his affliction.
Had he been honest, the condemnation, the blame and self loathing of people who needed support during the most frightening times of their life....would have evaporated. They could have died peacefully surrounded by friends and family members.
No no, had to preserve the mogs infallibility. Mustn`t cause people to doubt the accuracy of his teachings.
Suuuuuure....Tell the folks he died of a broken heart. No accountability for erroneous doctrines that have cause so much pain. No accountability for the shame and condemnation of sick people everywhere searching their souls to figure out where they blew it. No accountability for the people who died trying desperately to *believe* their way back to health.
The story is...HE decided to die because we all broke his heart. WE were blamed for the death of THE man of God for our day and time..THE man that God promised to teach the word like it had never been taught before.
Damned right it was a BFD Chaz, Any idea how awfull it felt to be blamed for the death of our beloved teacher?
Damned right that even in twi`s mad scramble to squirm out from responsibility, the poster has a valid point...according to twi history, when examined, the excuse given was SUICIDE!
Which incidentaly is yet another devil spirit according to vpw.
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rascal
So much heart ache and pain could have been alleviated had these guys just had the integrity and courage to be honest with the tens of thousands of people who looked to them for spiritual guidance, and the thousands who still today try to believe and apply erroneous doctrines and pratices.
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HAPe4me
In my AC73 class notes at HQ, I wrote "ALL cancer is a devil spirit". "All" is capitalized, indicating to me that it was stressed by VPW. I apoloigize profusely to anyone to whom I later passed that error on to in my teachings. That teaching is from the pit of hell if there is a hell.
Beyond that I don't give a flip what caused his cancer, cost his eye, or otherwise proves his buttholey existance and sorry excuse of a man.
~HAP
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Ham
This morning, I've been thinking.. the manner they withheld these little details and such, were they not treating me like a CHILD? and of course the rest of the ministry that wasn't involved in the inner circle?
were they so deathly afraid that little "johnny" would get upset, and go play somewhere else?
I was twenty years old at the time.. and there were those in their thirties and forties.. don't their brains and great wordagawd they supposedly got count for SOMETHING?
Seems they didn't trust us.. or could trust us with the facts..
and every effort was geared to keep a sick, dysfunctional, incestuous "family" together, all like it always supposedly had been..
DWBH's exposition showed how sick it really was..
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waysider
Hap
I remember that being in my notes (same year) also but can't locate them at the moment.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: suicide
AC syllabus
B. DISCERNING OF SPIRITS
.
.
.
page 21
Spirits affecting the mind
.
.
.
(17) Suicidal spirit--Romans 1:16ff
(18) Spirit of death---persons death is imminent. (this one is hand written, not part of the printed text.)
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Linda Z
Chas, I understand what you're saying, but Rhino nailed it for me when he said:
That's exactly why I posted what I did in this thread.
There's plenty that was and is wrong with twi, its founder, and many of its past and current "leaders." If we stick to the facts (and the facts, IMO, include the testimonies of the people harmed by their twi involvement, in case anyone feels inclined to pop in here and say otherwise), this place has a lot more credibility.
HAP, I didn't take the AC until '78, which would probbly explain why my notes differ from yours. My notes say he said cancer is "caused by," not "is," a devil spirit. He might have changed what he taught on that, I don't know. I do remember his talking about this at some length, in addition to what was on the video of the class, but I don't know if my notes reflect what he said on the video or his live comments.
Either way, I agree with Rascal that it was a damn shame that people were led to condemn themselves for "lack of believing" or to shun others for the same stupid reason--although I will say I never heard it taught that to have cancer one was possessed.
I want to clarify something I said earllier in the thread, that my money's on the dark side as to who ultimately caused this destructive disease. I do think there's a whole spiritual realm out there where lots is going on that we only get glimpses of--both light and darkness. But I'm highly skeptical that there are these spiritual entities running around zapping individual people with cancer. The way we eat, the toxins in and damage to our bodies from crap in our environment, genetics, and many, many other factors cause diseases.
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rascal
Amen! Wherever it comes from environmental, spiritual, mental, people fighting this battle need the prayers, love and support of their family, of the body of Christ.
Not to be ashamed, to feel dirty, contaminated, unlovable, unworthy, weak because of ones lack of believing.
It was a cruelty that never need have happened, if once confronted with the fallibility of our doctrines, they had been courageous to say, hey you know? We might have made a mistake here.
CYA was way more important, apparently.
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ChasUFarley
Isn't that the heart of it all, tho?
Really...
It was up to THEM to be HONEST with US - the believers.
Now we're trying to hash it out here in cyberspace...
But it's not just this issue - it's a million other issues to the tenth power, isn't it? This is just one of many.
Maybe because it's "one of many", it's easier to say, "Yup, they lied."
Considering the man's lifestyle, I'd probably bet money that the cancer was one of several co-morbidities the man had going on.... let's not forget he was a smoker and a drinker... neither of those items are sold in healthfood stores or prescribed by your doctor....
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Twinky
BUMP on this thread for the benefit of others who have come to the Cafe recently, and as it seems relevant to another resurrected thread currently on display.
Did VPW lose his eye to a fish hook?
Or to cancer?
Or one to a fish hook and one to cancer?
Whatever...the man lost an eye and the man is dead from cancer. And nobody at TWI was honest enough about any of it. It's GSC telling the other side of the story that has exposed the reason for his death.
I don't care why he died.
I do care that TWI still isn't honest in its dealings with its people.
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Broken Arrow
He taught that cancer was a devil spirit. Not that it was caused by a devil spirit, but that it was, in fact, a devil spirit in itself. So, was Wierwille possessed, or was his teaching wrong? Wait a minute! His teaching can't be wrong since what he taught was the greatest revelation of God's Word since the first century. Wierwille received it from God Himself. So he must have been...no wait! VP was the Man of God and therefore could not have been possessed! So, he was neither possessed and he didn't teach wrongly. Confusing, isn't it? Either way, Wierwille and TWI lose.
I'm not sure if the folks who weren't around while Wierwille walked amongst mortal man can appreciate just how "heavy" this really is. He literally stood up there in front of us and very matter-of-factly talked about how cancer has life in itself and therefore a spirit. He also talked about how disciplined his mind was and that he entertained no thoughts contrary to The Word. He also said repeatedly that God promised to teach him the Word better than it's been know since the First Century if he would teach it to others. Then he died of cancer. The only thing TWI could do was suppress the cause of death. It's public record, though. Anyone can see it for themselves.
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Twinky
This thread's been through all that, BA.
The "fish hook in the eye" story is new to most. But it appears to be disbelieved by most of the Cafe denizens at the time.
TWI tells so many stories about things...they are incapable of "discerning truth from error."
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So_crates
Here's a radical idea, BA. Both of the above are true. How?
Cancer is a devil spirit.
Saint Vic never said which god he was recieving his revelation from. Perhaps the same one that dispatched the cancer devil spirit? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
SoCrates
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socks
For what it's worth now, I have no idea what the cause of VPW's death was, I've understood it to be cancer or cancer related, based on the death certificate and other information I've heard.
As many of us know and many more will as time passes, death is one of the most difficult and revealing events, if I can call it that with all due respect, that we experience in life. It can be a time of confusion and intense emotions. Understandably.
What should have been an orderly but difficult time became masked in misinformation, lack of information and an apparent inability to cope with all of it. It showed a lot - you'd think that in the end barriers would come down, hearts would open and communication - though it be hard - would flow. But no, quite the opposite. At that end the heads of the Way struggled and floundered as bad as - worse really - than anyone anywhere would or could. It was like a slow but growing silent avalanche come crashing down around. And then - the pomp and ceremony that accompanied "moving forward". But that avalanche wasn't settled, just paused.
Cancer - a point of definition: cancer and "possession" weren't taught as synonymous. Cancer was considered caused by a "devil spirit" as it was considered to have "life of it's own" and all life, in Way doctrine, is spirit of some kind, though not all life would be "pneuma hagion/eternal life" spirit. Possession is a state of the mind, per the teaching, caused by a previous or existing disposition towards a mental weakness or consistent and continual behavior that would produce and promote an environment conducive to a specific kind of devil spirit. Factor in "believing" and the mix could, but not always or with a reliable expectation, produce an area of a person's "mind" that would/could slip into external suggestion and control, ie "possessed", or directed be it subtly or not so.
Cancer was taught to follow a similar physical route, where the mix of one's believing, lifestyle, habits and possibly a physical disposition or state could present the same kind of favorable environment for a "daimon" - but the "spirit" taking root and proliferating was physical and not inherently in or of the mind.
But - and this is where the whole thing continues to roil and turn - "believing" in deliverance through Jesus Christ would supercede all. As a Christian I would place my faith in That, knowing that my time is in God's hands and this life will go as it will, and as it does for everyone.
That's where, in the end, it all comes down to - no one will "believe" beyond the natural death of the body, and no one has. Jesus Christ's resurrection was wholly in God's domain and no human causes were involved and no one not even His closest followers waited expectantly for that to occur, they thought He was dead. And He was.
Everyone dies - how we get there may differ but it is what it is, for want of a better phrase regardless of what and how we believe, and other intervention or events not withstanding.
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