then again.. maybe sometimes, this "Romantic sociopath" gives them an illusion of something which merely does not exist in real life..
"he's sooo attentive.. gives soooo much.. etc.. etc.. etc.... why can't my Joe be like that.."
maybe "Joe" just can't compete..
of course the sociopath can't either.. not after keeping up the initial pace of showering the person with affection, gifts and all kinds of "communication".. that's why it doesn't last..
Your friend who had the affair with the sociopath should be thankful she found out BEFORE she got too involved. It would really suck if he didn't kick her to the curb and kept her going, and then she married him. I think sometimes God saves us from ourselves.
I feel that way about a lot of my relationships. There was one guy at HQ that I was totally in love with. Looking back, it was a very immature love. At that time, I would have given ANYTHING to marry him. Thank God it never worked out that way. I know God protected me from myself. I was at a very vulnerable time and liked the attention he gave me. He was flirty and easy to be around. We had MAJOR chemistry. Even other people had HQ saw the chemistry. It horrifies me to even imagine if I had married him. He's still in TWI, and he buys it all hook, line, and sinker. He was so good at quoting all of the crap he was taught in the Corps. He boasted his memory of what he was taught. But he failed to practice it. He hurt a lot of girls at HQ because he was flirty with all of them. He dated a lot of them. He had no intentions with any of them. Having so many dates and women who were willing to chase after him inflated his ego. I didn't see it at the time because I was competing so hard to win him for myself. Gawd! It even makes me sick thinking back to that time. His need for attention to inflate his ego is not a safe kind of person to allow in your heart.
Anyone who wants to get involved in a relationship needs to step back and ask themselves if somone truly deserves what they have to give. If you are considering someone to have in your life, you need to see that person in public, around their family, and around their close friends. You will see what they are REALLy like.
Perhaps some women just don't want to (or can't be) "kept"..
maybe.. sometimes, they trash the finances and budget so one CAN'T give them the little considerations due them..
maybe sometimes they are just not "happy"..
I think a man who finds a woman like that should run in the other direction and never look back. Many men think they are responsible to make a woman happy. Men should find a woman who is already happy. If somoene puts that kind of burden on another or on themself, it is a disaster waiting to happen.
Men need to learn to find the red flags too because there are as many emotional shipwrecks called women as there are clueless men.
By the way, I am not saying all men are clueless. My husband isn't. ;)
If you're divorced three or more times, it's your fault, if for no other reason than your inability to pick a worthwhile spouse.
"Inability to pick" described me quite nicely. Two husbands, and one 5-year relationship. One alcoholic, one narcissist, and one mean sunuvaB. I told my daughters if I ever thought about a guy again, I would send them his résumé for their consideration, since I obviously can't see straight.
And I for one am tired of hearing that "it takes two to tango" stuff. Sometimes the problem is blindness. When an action can be interpreted more than one way, and you love the person, you give that person the benefit of the doubt. You make excuses for them, because, sice they love you, they couldn't possibly have meant to be hurtful. It took me years with each one to stop making excuses, and to entertain the notion that perhaps they were not really who they wanted me to believe them to be.
The only other thing I wanted to say is that we often want to think of people as basically good, but with occasional flaws. It's hard for us to understand that there really are mean people in the world.
Although narcissists, sociopaths, and other personality-disordered people are on a continuum, there is a basic difference between the pure narcissist and the pure sociopath (who they now call "antisocial"): the narcissist doesn't care how you're feeling. It's all about the narcissist's feelings -- you are just there to feed the narcissism or be cast aside. The N thrives on your adoration.
The sociopath, on the other hand, thrives on your pain. The S knows what it takes to bring you down and revels in having power over you, be it emotional, financial, physical, etc. It is like a drug to the S; and unfortunately, the S may need bigger and bigger conquests to achieve a "high."
I think a man who finds a woman like that should run in the other direction and never look back. Many men think they are responsible to make a woman happy. Men should find a woman who is already happy. If somoene puts that kind of burden on another or on themself, it is a disaster waiting to happen.
despite one's best efforts (for the most part) sometimes one just doesn't find out until twenty five years, and two or three children later..
they've been horribly unhappy and dissatisfied for YEARS.. and there were NO clues. Just strategy..
maybe we're all nuts..
I can see in that in one's psyche.. not willing or being able to be "kept" or *really* loved... but trying to convince oneself otherwise. I can see how a woman would feel trapped.
Why, exactly, do you want to be involved with this particular person?
If you expect someone else to meet all your emotional needs, maybe you need to do a bit of growing up yourself.
Likewise, if they expect you to fulfil all their emotional needs.
On the other hand, loving and honest communication can help both of you grow emotionally, both as individuals and together.
Balance, isn't it. Because none of us wants to be manipulated, either, and that's what the type of person discussed in this thread thrives on. He/She is emotionally needy, expects someone else to fulfil their needs. And one of their needs is to be the hunter/predator. Loves the chase, but not interested in the prey itself.
despite one's best efforts (for the most part) sometimes one just doesn't find out until twenty five years, and two or three children later..
they've been horribly unhappy and dissatisfied for YEARS.. and there were NO clues. Just strategy..
maybe we're all nuts..
I can see in that in one's psyche.. not willing or being able to be "kept" or *really* loved... but trying to convince oneself otherwise. I can see how a woman would feel trapped.
Ham,
That's life learning. It's too bad when someone waits 25 years to see something for what it is. Although I find it hard to understand that someone would not see something until 25 years later.
I understand people trying to keep it going because we still believe saving marriage is still honorable, and it is. I remember the bondage I felt to leave my first husband over his drug use. In my mind, I made a commitment to him and God. When the light finally came through, I knew that marraige was never what God intended for me. I didn't listen when God was telling me it wasn't the best choice for my life.
Many people stay in miserable marriages because it becomes comfortable for them. Or it becomes too much of a chore to think about leaving when they know they need to. People like to take the easier path or make less waves.
I am blind. My weakness, like Samson, was that I did not feel loved. So, when someone said it – I bought it. Look what a dumb azz he was – you would think after the chick did EXACTLY what he said would strip him of his power he could have gotten a clue – that she was there to strip his power.
Then, VEXED he decides to tell her the truth – the area that will open him up to such pain, kill his “ministry” and defeat him. He opened up with the deep “inner core” stuff to a person who did not LOVE nor did she have his best interest at heart. She was, literally, sent by the enemy.
In my life...
Those very men are the ones I choose. Even though God sends RED flags, I feel that maybe "I" am being too judgmental. Even though the signs are screaming at me, I go deaf and blind, for the hope that maybe this time….
I had to examine my life, which is the suggestion of Notta here in this thread. My Father was emotionally unavailable, a task master, demanded his way or the highway – and I was thrown out of the house as a teen—still searching for a family I was ripe pickens for They Way. (We all have our stories - this is mine)
In order for me to believe as a child, “all is well”, I had to dismiss CLEAR signs and LOUD bells. I could not handle what was going on around me – so apparently, I invented a “different way” to view the horror show. I went on an excavation trip to find the “good” and I did cling to that. But, I did so, at the expense of the truth and "protecting" myself from the bad.
So, the vein popping screaming, the punches, the silence and the fear became inconsequential because I knew my Dad loved me. He went to work everyday to provide for us. He spanked me when I got a low “grade” as he wanted the best for me. He screamed me into constant fear to motivate me to stay away from the bad things in life – because he “loved” me.
I was set up to accept the “lie” as the truth. The words were all important and if the action did not line up – well "people are people" and we need to give them a break. But the “break” I gave “them” broke me.
When the Bible speaks of false prophets and teachers, I always looked at it as “Biblical” but there are MANY false teachers out there & we accept their edicts and doctrines. My Dad, did not mean to be, but he was a false teacher. His lectures and his guidance were that girls were “nothing” and someday I would be married and cook/clean/reproduce and that was my one and only purpose. No emotion need be offered, no listening was ever available, no conversations … Just screaming, yelling, beating and striping me of the innate gifts I knew I had. “You are nothing, you will never be anything.”
THESE are FALSE teachers and “teachings” that we subscribe to as kids because our parents are the “god” figures.
Is it any wonder people fall for the “crap” dished out by the “spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend”.
We (to those what I just stated applies) have heard it and lived for long periods of life preparing us to accept it our whole lives.
So, when a man tells me I am “THE” one and he waited “his whole life”. I can relate to that because I have waited my whole life. "Gee, maybe finally it is here."
I am learning....
The only protection we have is God. (and the people with a lick of sense he provided, and the lick of sense he gave us when we heed it) I know I need to run the “actions” done to me through the God barometer of “love” because frankly how in the H do I know what love is?
And because this false teaching and “wrong” way I have lived is engrained in me, I choose the same emotionally unavailable people over and over again.
I am a toxin to myself. I poison my own decisions because I accept the “ground work” laid in me as “truth.”
Obviously, I need to work on a new truth – or recognition of the real truth. And the same biting way I fought for bad “partners” and defended them because they did ONE nice thing that helped me – we have people on Greasespot still defending VPW because he did a couple nice/good things that helped them. This is all part of the bait to get people to accept the mountain of BAD because they cannot rationalize away the “bit of good” provided to them in a con game to lure you into accepting mistreatment as “status quo”
Just my opinion about me, some of us, and some of our lives…
Geo, I missed what you wrote, but I just hope you get it that both genders have their share of jerks, women don't hold a monopoly on that. I'm really sorry for what happened to you. As for me, I never just announced one day that I was leaving. Quite the opposite, I spent way too long trying to communicate, going to family counseling, etc. The narcissist was so odd that I thought he might be autistic, and truly not know how to communicate. Nah, he heard just fine, he just didn't want to listen.
Notta, I agree that Wayfers in particular felt committed to keeping the marriage together, because of their adherence to Christian beliefs, strengthened by Wierwille's verdict that "any two believers can make a marriage work."
I disagree that people stay in a bad marriage because they become "comfortable" with being miserable. Wierwille used to promulgate that myth by saying that abused women had a spirit of masochism, and liked being abused. Having spoken to many people in abusive relationships, virtually none of them wanted to be in one. Many were afraid of what would happen to them, physically or financially, if they left. Some wrestled with their faith, or the impact leaving would have on their kids. Many still held out hope that the abuser would somehow "see the light" go back to being the sweet person who they knew before.
Excy, you cracked me up! Yup, all my fault, AND I'm probably bitter, too! But as hard as it's been, I got the better deal. I have two amazing daughters that the exes didn't see grow up. When the oldest got married, she didn't invite her father, but asked me to walk her down the aisle. The youngest kid shows signs of being the man his father couldn't be bothered to be.
I guess I'd rather be a good person who trusts too much than a bad person who trusts not at all.
Another factor that I think is relevant to wayfers in particular, is that counseling by an outside source was considered taboo. So, not only were people deprived of valid intervention, they were subjected to advice that had a strong potential for destructiveness.
I understand people trying to keep it going because we still believe saving marriage is still honorable, and it is. I remember the bondage I felt to leave my first husband over his drug use. In my mind, I made a commitment to him and God. When the light finally came through, I knew that marraige was never what God intended for me. I didn't listen when God was telling me it wasn't the best choice for my life.
Many people stay in miserable marriages because it becomes comfortable for them. Or it becomes too much of a chore to think about leaving when they know they need to. People like to take the easier path or make less waves.
Yep.. and often they stay in the marriage until the one or few reasons to stay go away..
and they often just stay quiet, don't stir up "trouble", and they simply exit..
I am beginning to think it's a failed system, and some people just hold up better under it..
Those very men are the ones I choose. Even though God sends RED flags, I feel that maybe "I" am being too judgmental. Even though the signs are screaming at me, I go deaf and blind, for the hope that maybe this time….
Dot, apparently they have learned (or evolved depending on your belief) to know which buttons to push, which promises to make..
Perhaps they are just as psychologically conditioned and trained to make these promises as those who accept them..
I think if people decided what they wanted out of life and started living the life along with learning to love themselves (even if they are alone), then they are in a better place to attract someone who is emotionally healthy for them.
After my divorce, I spent 9 years making mistakes with horrible relationships. These 9 years were during the most trying time of a woman's life to be single (my 30s). I was DESPEREATE to get married and start having a family. Again, I believe God protected me from my own agenda. There was a lot of heartache and disappointment until I left TWI at 39 and started realizing I needed to cultivate who I wanted to be. I didn't want to be the girl who grew up in an unhappy alcoholic home whose parents married twice and are still unhappy. I didn't want to be a failure at relationships or marriage again. I didn't want to keep walking in circles because I was lost on my trail. I wanted to discover that new trail of my life which had georgous sunsets and beautiful trees and flowers.
I started going to my favorite place on earth, Torrey Pines State Park in San Diego. It has hiking trails which overlook the ocean. That was calming and exhilerating at the same time. Enjoying nature and just talking to my innerself. I went places to meet new people (i.e., weight watchers, kindness ministry at church, women's small group at church, craft classes). I met my best friend today at one of those functions. That was the only time I was thankful for door-to-door witnessing. I wasn't afraid to approach people and start talking. It's was a lot easier when I didn't have an agenda. I just wanted to see what kind of person they were and wanted to see if there was a chance to develop a healthy friendship. My BFF and I went to dinners together; we went on a Mexico vacation together; and we shared our dreams of having a healthy relationship. I didn't miss dating because I had my BFF. We dated each other (without the romantic stuff ;)).
After I knew I could date without thinking it could be something more because I wanted to make them prove to me that they were worthy of me, I did internet dating. I went had over 20 dates within 6 months. I met a lot of fun people, weird people, and sucky people. It was fun because I wasn't in it for a relationship. I was in it to meet people. I guess it was kind of a time to prove to myself that I could date and not get wrapped up in someone emotionally. I drew a line up front about physical stuff with myself and the date.
Then I met my husband. He lived 360 miles from me in the next state. We talked on the phone and instant messaged on yahoo for HOURS and HOURS. We learned about each other, learned about our pasts, learned about our previous marriages and why they broke down, and learned about what made each other tick. We did this all without getting physcially involved (obviously because of the distance). We spoke on the phone every night. We spoke more than 14 hours a week.
After 3 weeks, we met in person. He felt like home, but I wasn't going to make a hasty decision. We took turns visiting every other weekend. I met his friends, his family, and his co-workers. Every person I met had many great things to say about him. We went to dinner with his childhood friend and his wife. They shared stories about what they did as kids. Everything I saw and heard allowed me to know who this guy was.
Because we spent more time getting to know each other before having a relationship, it allowed us to decide to marry by the 4th month we knew each other. My mind was doing flip flops over that because I SWORE I would only marry after a lengthy engagement. I thought it through many times for many days and couldn't see a reason why I shouldn't. I didn't see any red flags. I honestly searched within myself about why we would be together. It was because we enjoyed each other at all times of the day. It wasn't about money or status or sex. I'm not saying we are perfect people by any means. But I feel we did the homework to enjoy what we are today. We've will celebrate our 5th anniversary in a few months.
Many can say that we are still newly weds and that we still have to get to know each other. I know this marriage is different than my first. At the 5th anniversary of my first marriage, I was planning how I would leave. I started thinking about divorce by the 3rd anniversary of my first marriage. Divorce is not even in my thoughts now. I KNOW I've done it better this time.
There are no fairy tales. Live in reality in your relationships. Romance is not flowers, dinners, passionate love making, or "I've waiting for you my whole life." That can be true, but it shouldn't be the basis for a relationship. Get to know each other as people BEFORE you get serious with someone. If you don't, the googly stage will take over your mind and common sense. I don't even remember a googly stage with my husband. I feel everything we've experienced has been real, not built-up romance.
Then once you get your soulmate, cherish them and never take them for granted. Learn to speak their love language and do it. Sure we get busy and wrapped up with life, but we always have to take time to nurture our relationships. Instead of getting resentful like I did in my past, I just ask my husband "What is my love language?" He smiles every time. We established that we would speak each other's love language from the very beginning, and it allows us to go back to the foundation we set without resentment.
I wouldn't be enjoying what I do today had I not taken the time to nurture myself and figure out why I had made the choices I did in the past.
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Ham
I don't think it's entirely about being clueless.
Perhaps some women just don't want to (or can't be) "kept"..
maybe.. sometimes, they trash the finances and budget so one CAN'T give them the little considerations due them..
maybe sometimes they are just not "happy"..
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Ham
then again.. maybe sometimes, this "Romantic sociopath" gives them an illusion of something which merely does not exist in real life..
"he's sooo attentive.. gives soooo much.. etc.. etc.. etc.... why can't my Joe be like that.."
maybe "Joe" just can't compete..
of course the sociopath can't either.. not after keeping up the initial pace of showering the person with affection, gifts and all kinds of "communication".. that's why it doesn't last..
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GeorgeStGeorge
IMHO,
If you're divorced once, it may not have been your fault.
If you're divorced twice, it's an even bet that it's your (or largely your) fault.
If you're divorced three or more times, it's your fault, if for no other reason than your inability to pick a worthwhile spouse.
George
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Nottawayfer
Dot,
Your friend who had the affair with the sociopath should be thankful she found out BEFORE she got too involved. It would really suck if he didn't kick her to the curb and kept her going, and then she married him. I think sometimes God saves us from ourselves.
I feel that way about a lot of my relationships. There was one guy at HQ that I was totally in love with. Looking back, it was a very immature love. At that time, I would have given ANYTHING to marry him. Thank God it never worked out that way. I know God protected me from myself. I was at a very vulnerable time and liked the attention he gave me. He was flirty and easy to be around. We had MAJOR chemistry. Even other people had HQ saw the chemistry. It horrifies me to even imagine if I had married him. He's still in TWI, and he buys it all hook, line, and sinker. He was so good at quoting all of the crap he was taught in the Corps. He boasted his memory of what he was taught. But he failed to practice it. He hurt a lot of girls at HQ because he was flirty with all of them. He dated a lot of them. He had no intentions with any of them. Having so many dates and women who were willing to chase after him inflated his ego. I didn't see it at the time because I was competing so hard to win him for myself. Gawd! It even makes me sick thinking back to that time. His need for attention to inflate his ego is not a safe kind of person to allow in your heart.
Anyone who wants to get involved in a relationship needs to step back and ask themselves if somone truly deserves what they have to give. If you are considering someone to have in your life, you need to see that person in public, around their family, and around their close friends. You will see what they are REALLy like.
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Nottawayfer
I think a man who finds a woman like that should run in the other direction and never look back. Many men think they are responsible to make a woman happy. Men should find a woman who is already happy. If somoene puts that kind of burden on another or on themself, it is a disaster waiting to happen.
Men need to learn to find the red flags too because there are as many emotional shipwrecks called women as there are clueless men.
By the way, I am not saying all men are clueless. My husband isn't. ;)
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excathedra
thank you notta
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shazdancer
From George St George:
"Inability to pick" described me quite nicely. Two husbands, and one 5-year relationship. One alcoholic, one narcissist, and one mean sunuvaB. I told my daughters if I ever thought about a guy again, I would send them his résumé for their consideration, since I obviously can't see straight.
And I for one am tired of hearing that "it takes two to tango" stuff. Sometimes the problem is blindness. When an action can be interpreted more than one way, and you love the person, you give that person the benefit of the doubt. You make excuses for them, because, sice they love you, they couldn't possibly have meant to be hurtful. It took me years with each one to stop making excuses, and to entertain the notion that perhaps they were not really who they wanted me to believe them to be.
The only other thing I wanted to say is that we often want to think of people as basically good, but with occasional flaws. It's hard for us to understand that there really are mean people in the world.
Although narcissists, sociopaths, and other personality-disordered people are on a continuum, there is a basic difference between the pure narcissist and the pure sociopath (who they now call "antisocial"): the narcissist doesn't care how you're feeling. It's all about the narcissist's feelings -- you are just there to feed the narcissism or be cast aside. The N thrives on your adoration.
The sociopath, on the other hand, thrives on your pain. The S knows what it takes to bring you down and revels in having power over you, be it emotional, financial, physical, etc. It is like a drug to the S; and unfortunately, the S may need bigger and bigger conquests to achieve a "high."
-- Shaz
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George Aar
deleted 'cause I shouldn't be posting on this thread
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Ham
despite one's best efforts (for the most part) sometimes one just doesn't find out until twenty five years, and two or three children later..
they've been horribly unhappy and dissatisfied for YEARS.. and there were NO clues. Just strategy..
maybe we're all nuts..
I can see in that in one's psyche.. not willing or being able to be "kept" or *really* loved... but trying to convince oneself otherwise. I can see how a woman would feel trapped.
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Twinky
Got to know yourself, as well.
Why, exactly, do you want to be involved with this particular person?
If you expect someone else to meet all your emotional needs, maybe you need to do a bit of growing up yourself.
Likewise, if they expect you to fulfil all their emotional needs.
On the other hand, loving and honest communication can help both of you grow emotionally, both as individuals and together.
Balance, isn't it. Because none of us wants to be manipulated, either, and that's what the type of person discussed in this thread thrives on. He/She is emotionally needy, expects someone else to fulfil their needs. And one of their needs is to be the hunter/predator. Loves the chase, but not interested in the prey itself.
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Nottawayfer
Ham,
That's life learning. It's too bad when someone waits 25 years to see something for what it is. Although I find it hard to understand that someone would not see something until 25 years later.
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Ham
pretty simple..
1. Maybe they were beat down with the "word" like it hadn't been known since the earth cooled to be a submissive, "happy" wife..
2. Maybe the person is just a very, very good actor. Award them an oscar.
3. Maybe there were other reasons.. who knows..
4. Perhaps a high tolerance for pain and frustration. The kind of person who could take an emotional drill without novacaine..
who knows..
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Nottawayfer
Ham,
I understand people trying to keep it going because we still believe saving marriage is still honorable, and it is. I remember the bondage I felt to leave my first husband over his drug use. In my mind, I made a commitment to him and God. When the light finally came through, I knew that marraige was never what God intended for me. I didn't listen when God was telling me it wasn't the best choice for my life.
Many people stay in miserable marriages because it becomes comfortable for them. Or it becomes too much of a chore to think about leaving when they know they need to. People like to take the easier path or make less waves.
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excathedra
thank you shaz, but it's all your fault, 3 strikes you're out
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Twinky
Grace and compassion.
Kindness and forgiveness.
...Make a marriage work.
No legalism, if you have honestly tried your best and it still doesn't work out. Sometimes the other party simply won't also try.
We are not to be in bondage (well, unless mutually agreed, and both enjoy it, LOL!)
Grace and compassion are not commonly found in sociopaths. :unsure:
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Dot Matrix
Shaz and Twinky I feel you.
I am blind. My weakness, like Samson, was that I did not feel loved. So, when someone said it – I bought it. Look what a dumb azz he was – you would think after the chick did EXACTLY what he said would strip him of his power he could have gotten a clue – that she was there to strip his power.
Then, VEXED he decides to tell her the truth – the area that will open him up to such pain, kill his “ministry” and defeat him. He opened up with the deep “inner core” stuff to a person who did not LOVE nor did she have his best interest at heart. She was, literally, sent by the enemy.
In my life...
Those very men are the ones I choose. Even though God sends RED flags, I feel that maybe "I" am being too judgmental. Even though the signs are screaming at me, I go deaf and blind, for the hope that maybe this time….
I had to examine my life, which is the suggestion of Notta here in this thread. My Father was emotionally unavailable, a task master, demanded his way or the highway – and I was thrown out of the house as a teen—still searching for a family I was ripe pickens for They Way. (We all have our stories - this is mine)
In order for me to believe as a child, “all is well”, I had to dismiss CLEAR signs and LOUD bells. I could not handle what was going on around me – so apparently, I invented a “different way” to view the horror show. I went on an excavation trip to find the “good” and I did cling to that. But, I did so, at the expense of the truth and "protecting" myself from the bad.
So, the vein popping screaming, the punches, the silence and the fear became inconsequential because I knew my Dad loved me. He went to work everyday to provide for us. He spanked me when I got a low “grade” as he wanted the best for me. He screamed me into constant fear to motivate me to stay away from the bad things in life – because he “loved” me.
I was set up to accept the “lie” as the truth. The words were all important and if the action did not line up – well "people are people" and we need to give them a break. But the “break” I gave “them” broke me.
When the Bible speaks of false prophets and teachers, I always looked at it as “Biblical” but there are MANY false teachers out there & we accept their edicts and doctrines. My Dad, did not mean to be, but he was a false teacher. His lectures and his guidance were that girls were “nothing” and someday I would be married and cook/clean/reproduce and that was my one and only purpose. No emotion need be offered, no listening was ever available, no conversations … Just screaming, yelling, beating and striping me of the innate gifts I knew I had. “You are nothing, you will never be anything.”
THESE are FALSE teachers and “teachings” that we subscribe to as kids because our parents are the “god” figures.
Is it any wonder people fall for the “crap” dished out by the “spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend”.
We (to those what I just stated applies) have heard it and lived for long periods of life preparing us to accept it our whole lives.
So, when a man tells me I am “THE” one and he waited “his whole life”. I can relate to that because I have waited my whole life. "Gee, maybe finally it is here."
I am learning....
The only protection we have is God. (and the people with a lick of sense he provided, and the lick of sense he gave us when we heed it) I know I need to run the “actions” done to me through the God barometer of “love” because frankly how in the H do I know what love is?
And because this false teaching and “wrong” way I have lived is engrained in me, I choose the same emotionally unavailable people over and over again.
I am a toxin to myself. I poison my own decisions because I accept the “ground work” laid in me as “truth.”
Obviously, I need to work on a new truth – or recognition of the real truth. And the same biting way I fought for bad “partners” and defended them because they did ONE nice thing that helped me – we have people on Greasespot still defending VPW because he did a couple nice/good things that helped them. This is all part of the bait to get people to accept the mountain of BAD because they cannot rationalize away the “bit of good” provided to them in a con game to lure you into accepting mistreatment as “status quo”
Just my opinion about me, some of us, and some of our lives…
Edited by Dot MatrixLink to comment
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shazdancer
Geo, I missed what you wrote, but I just hope you get it that both genders have their share of jerks, women don't hold a monopoly on that. I'm really sorry for what happened to you. As for me, I never just announced one day that I was leaving. Quite the opposite, I spent way too long trying to communicate, going to family counseling, etc. The narcissist was so odd that I thought he might be autistic, and truly not know how to communicate. Nah, he heard just fine, he just didn't want to listen.
Notta, I agree that Wayfers in particular felt committed to keeping the marriage together, because of their adherence to Christian beliefs, strengthened by Wierwille's verdict that "any two believers can make a marriage work."
I disagree that people stay in a bad marriage because they become "comfortable" with being miserable. Wierwille used to promulgate that myth by saying that abused women had a spirit of masochism, and liked being abused. Having spoken to many people in abusive relationships, virtually none of them wanted to be in one. Many were afraid of what would happen to them, physically or financially, if they left. Some wrestled with their faith, or the impact leaving would have on their kids. Many still held out hope that the abuser would somehow "see the light" go back to being the sweet person who they knew before.
Excy, you cracked me up! Yup, all my fault, AND I'm probably bitter, too! But as hard as it's been, I got the better deal. I have two amazing daughters that the exes didn't see grow up. When the oldest got married, she didn't invite her father, but asked me to walk her down the aisle. The youngest kid shows signs of being the man his father couldn't be bothered to be.
I guess I'd rather be a good person who trusts too much than a bad person who trusts not at all.
Merry Christmas,
Shaz
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waysider
Another factor that I think is relevant to wayfers in particular, is that counseling by an outside source was considered taboo. So, not only were people deprived of valid intervention, they were subjected to advice that had a strong potential for destructiveness.
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Ham
Yep.. and often they stay in the marriage until the one or few reasons to stay go away..
and they often just stay quiet, don't stir up "trouble", and they simply exit..
I am beginning to think it's a failed system, and some people just hold up better under it..
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Ham
Dot, apparently they have learned (or evolved depending on your belief) to know which buttons to push, which promises to make..
Perhaps they are just as psychologically conditioned and trained to make these promises as those who accept them..
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Nottawayfer
I think if people decided what they wanted out of life and started living the life along with learning to love themselves (even if they are alone), then they are in a better place to attract someone who is emotionally healthy for them.
After my divorce, I spent 9 years making mistakes with horrible relationships. These 9 years were during the most trying time of a woman's life to be single (my 30s). I was DESPEREATE to get married and start having a family. Again, I believe God protected me from my own agenda. There was a lot of heartache and disappointment until I left TWI at 39 and started realizing I needed to cultivate who I wanted to be. I didn't want to be the girl who grew up in an unhappy alcoholic home whose parents married twice and are still unhappy. I didn't want to be a failure at relationships or marriage again. I didn't want to keep walking in circles because I was lost on my trail. I wanted to discover that new trail of my life which had georgous sunsets and beautiful trees and flowers.
I started going to my favorite place on earth, Torrey Pines State Park in San Diego. It has hiking trails which overlook the ocean. That was calming and exhilerating at the same time. Enjoying nature and just talking to my innerself. I went places to meet new people (i.e., weight watchers, kindness ministry at church, women's small group at church, craft classes). I met my best friend today at one of those functions. That was the only time I was thankful for door-to-door witnessing. I wasn't afraid to approach people and start talking. It's was a lot easier when I didn't have an agenda. I just wanted to see what kind of person they were and wanted to see if there was a chance to develop a healthy friendship. My BFF and I went to dinners together; we went on a Mexico vacation together; and we shared our dreams of having a healthy relationship. I didn't miss dating because I had my BFF. We dated each other (without the romantic stuff ;)).
After I knew I could date without thinking it could be something more because I wanted to make them prove to me that they were worthy of me, I did internet dating. I went had over 20 dates within 6 months. I met a lot of fun people, weird people, and sucky people. It was fun because I wasn't in it for a relationship. I was in it to meet people. I guess it was kind of a time to prove to myself that I could date and not get wrapped up in someone emotionally. I drew a line up front about physical stuff with myself and the date.
Then I met my husband. He lived 360 miles from me in the next state. We talked on the phone and instant messaged on yahoo for HOURS and HOURS. We learned about each other, learned about our pasts, learned about our previous marriages and why they broke down, and learned about what made each other tick. We did this all without getting physcially involved (obviously because of the distance). We spoke on the phone every night. We spoke more than 14 hours a week.
After 3 weeks, we met in person. He felt like home, but I wasn't going to make a hasty decision. We took turns visiting every other weekend. I met his friends, his family, and his co-workers. Every person I met had many great things to say about him. We went to dinner with his childhood friend and his wife. They shared stories about what they did as kids. Everything I saw and heard allowed me to know who this guy was.
Because we spent more time getting to know each other before having a relationship, it allowed us to decide to marry by the 4th month we knew each other. My mind was doing flip flops over that because I SWORE I would only marry after a lengthy engagement. I thought it through many times for many days and couldn't see a reason why I shouldn't. I didn't see any red flags. I honestly searched within myself about why we would be together. It was because we enjoyed each other at all times of the day. It wasn't about money or status or sex. I'm not saying we are perfect people by any means. But I feel we did the homework to enjoy what we are today. We've will celebrate our 5th anniversary in a few months.
Many can say that we are still newly weds and that we still have to get to know each other. I know this marriage is different than my first. At the 5th anniversary of my first marriage, I was planning how I would leave. I started thinking about divorce by the 3rd anniversary of my first marriage. Divorce is not even in my thoughts now. I KNOW I've done it better this time.
There are no fairy tales. Live in reality in your relationships. Romance is not flowers, dinners, passionate love making, or "I've waiting for you my whole life." That can be true, but it shouldn't be the basis for a relationship. Get to know each other as people BEFORE you get serious with someone. If you don't, the googly stage will take over your mind and common sense. I don't even remember a googly stage with my husband. I feel everything we've experienced has been real, not built-up romance.
Then once you get your soulmate, cherish them and never take them for granted. Learn to speak their love language and do it. Sure we get busy and wrapped up with life, but we always have to take time to nurture our relationships. Instead of getting resentful like I did in my past, I just ask my husband "What is my love language?" He smiles every time. We established that we would speak each other's love language from the very beginning, and it allows us to go back to the foundation we set without resentment.
I wouldn't be enjoying what I do today had I not taken the time to nurture myself and figure out why I had made the choices I did in the past.
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JeffSjo
Dear Nottawayfer,
I'm really glad for your happy ending, just hearing it gets me to consider possibilities for my future even yet.
Dear Dot,
Thank you for starting this thread, a lot of the sharings hit close to home for me in a real good way.
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Twinky
(((Dot)))
Who are you? To yourself? Who do you want to be?
Notta
What a wonderful "happy" story. So glad it is working out so well for you!
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Dot Matrix
Twinky, I have failed me. I am sorting it all out.
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