VPW and the Snowstorm - What do you believe?

[seaspray]

Wierwille's character aside, you seem to imply that you believe Wierwille's writings hold water. Is that so? If so why?

Hey Bolshevik, howdy.

There's two question marks here so there must be two questions. Let's see if I've got them right.

Q) Do you believe Dr. Wierwille's writings hold water?

A) Yes.

Q) Why?

A) It's because I've discovered, in coming back to what Dr. Wierwille wrote, that it is very easy and simple and pleasant to live in. There is fresh air to breathe and clean, clear water to drink. There is good food to eat and shelter.

Your phrase, 'hold water', takes me back to the first chapter of Power for Abundant Living. It tells us that God's people have screwed up in two ways. One, they have forsaken the one true God and two, they've built their own personal cisterns and these cisterns can 'hold no water'. This describes our situation perfectly.

You know, it's a hard thing when people realize the cisterns they have spent so much time and effort constructing hold no water. No matter how elaborate or plain, no matter how big or small, none will hold any water. That's the bad news. The good news is power for abundant living makes the way to the limitless supply of living water. It is the way back to the fountainhead of truth, God Almighty Himself.

That's why Dr. Wierwille, with almost his last breath, instructed us to master the class and the writing that came with it. This sets forth the accuracy of God's Word, is available to us today through The Way Ministry and it is really something wonderful!

Edited January 20, 2009 by seaspray

[Raf]

You're still in?

[Raf]

Hey Bolshevik, howdy.

There's two question marks here so there must be two questions. Let's see if I've got them right.

Q) Do you believe Dr. Wierwille's writings hold water?

A) Yes.

Q) Why?

A) It's because I've discovered, in coming back to what Dr. Wierwille wrote, that it is very easy and simple and pleasant to live in. There is fresh air to breathe and clean, clear water to drink. There is good food to eat and shelter.

Your phrase, 'hold water', takes me back to the first chapter of Power for Abundant Living. It tells us that God's people have screwed up in two ways. One, they have forsaken the one true God and two, they've built their own personal cisterns and these cisterns can 'hold no water'. This describes our situation perfectly.

You know, it's a hard thing when people realize the cisterns they have spent so much time and effort constructing hold no water. No matter how elaborate or plain, no matter how big or small, none will hold any water. That's the bad news. The good news is power for abundant living makes the way to the limitless supply of living water. It is the way back to the fountainhead of truth, God Almighty Himself.

That's why Dr. Wierwille, with almost his last breath, instructed us to master the class and the writing that came with it. This sets forth the accuracy of God's Word, is available to us today through The Way Ministry and it is really something wonderful!

[ctrl]f "jesus"

no matches found

[ctrl]f "christ"

no matches found

All I need to know.

[potato]

You're still in?

sure sounds like a kool-aid drinking innie, dialed in to the "present truth"... or do you guys still teach that, seaspray? has twi gone back to the revelation of vpw as its foundation? I'm just wondering. things were pretty watered-down when I left.

[Mike]

[ctrl]f "jesus"

no matches found

[ctrl]f "christ"

no matches found

All I need to know.

Hey Bolshevik, howdy.

There's two question marks here so there must be two questions. Let's see if I've got them right.

Q) Do you believe Dr. Wierwille's writings hold water?

A) Yes.

Q) Why?

A) It's because I've discovered, in coming back to what Dr. Wierwille wrote, that it is very easy and simple and pleasant to live in. There is fresh air to breathe and clean, clear water to drink. There is good food to eat and shelter.

Your phrase, 'hold water', takes me back to the first chapter of Power for Abundant Living. It tells us that God's people have screwed up in two ways. One, they have forsaken the one true God and two, they've built their own personal cisterns and these cisterns can 'hold no water'. This describes our situation perfectly.

You know, it's a hard thing when people realize the cisterns they have spent so much time and effort constructing hold no water. No matter how elaborate or plain, no matter how big or small, none will hold any water. That's the bad news. The good news is power for abundant living makes the way to the limitless supply of living water. It is the way back to the fountainhead of truth, God Almighty Himself.

That's why Dr. Wierwille, with almost his last breath, instructed us to master the class and the writing that came with it. This sets forth the accuracy of God's Word, is available to us today through The Way Ministry and it is really something wonderful!

Raf,

Gee, maybe you need glasses, or a more expanded vocabulary. I see Christ all through this post. Maybe if you were better instructed you'd be able to see better.

Edited January 20, 2009 by Mike

[potato]

Raf,

Gee, maybe you need glasses, or a more expanded vocabulary. I see Christ all through this post. Maybe if you were better instructed you'd be able to see better.

I don't see christ either, I see twi propaganda.

[Raf]

Nice try, Mike.

That you could hightlight "The Way" and ignore "Ministry" and claim "The Way" there is a reference to Christ would be astonishing to me... if it were coming from anyone else.

[JeffSjo]

Hey Bolshevik, howdy.

There's two question marks here so there must be two questions. Let's see if I've got them right.

Q) Do you believe Dr. Wierwille's writings hold water?

A) Yes.

Q) Why?

A) It's because I've discovered, in coming back to what Dr. Wierwille wrote, that it is very easy and simple and pleasant to live in. There is fresh air to breathe and clean, clear water to drink. There is good food to eat and shelter.

Your phrase, 'hold water', takes me back to the first chapter of Power for Abundant Living. It tells us that God's people have screwed up in two ways. One, they have forsaken the one true God and two, they've built their own personal cisterns and these cisterns can 'hold no water'. This describes our situation perfectly.

You know, it's a hard thing when people realize the cisterns they have spent so much time and effort constructing hold no water. No matter how elaborate or plain, no matter how big or small, none will hold any water. That's the bad news. The good news is power for abundant living makes the way to the limitless supply of living water. It is the way back to the fountainhead of truth, God Almighty Himself.

That's why Dr. Wierwille, with almost his last breath, instructed us to master the class and the writing that came with it. This sets forth the accuracy of God's Word, is available to us today through The Way Ministry and it is really something wonderful!

Dear Seaspray,

I don't know for sure if you believe what Mike believes in all respects. For instance, Mike believes that the greatest secret in the world today is that PFAL is the revealed Word and Will of God.

Speaking for myself, I don't think your claims hold water when held up to the years of testimonies and doctrinal discussions that I've read of while here at the Greasespot. But feel free to explore these things yourself.

I really do hope that you manage to take Wierwille's own words into account when you take your stand, because the Lord will judge him according to his words, and I'd hate to see you go down with that ship. The many TWI victims that share here don't seem to hold your rosy picture of what's available in TWI, and neither do I.

[Raf]

Jeff put it well, as usual.

You know, it's a hard thing when people realize the cisterns they have spent so much time and effort constructing hold no water.

It's true, seaspray, but once you come to that realization, your recovery can begin.

The belief system you cling to was, to a large extent, concocted by a predator of God's people for the purpose of satisfying his lust for money, sex and power. Oh, his legacy includes many fond memories for you, and I won't begrudge you that. I had some good memories too. But I'd trade those good memories in a heartbeat if it would take away the pain and anguish suffered at Wierwille's hands by people whose only crime was a desire to get to know God better.

[Mike]

Nice try, Mike.

That you could hightlight "The Way" and ignore "Ministry" and claim "The Way" there is a reference to Christ would be astonishing to me... if it were coming from anyone else.

It wasn't a try on my part, nor on seaspray's. I think you tried to close your eyes to it. Jesus Christ is the central figure in all the teaching we received. You just wanted to see ONE SPECIFIC label. You're too tied to that one label. It's not even Hebrew, it's Greek. Why didn't you ctrl F his Hebrew label?

And another thing, I think you're confusing The Way International with The Way Ministry.

The ministry was initially named after Jesus Christ, who is THE Way and had the legal title The Way Ministry, signifying the work or ministering of Jesus Christ. It was from this organized effort that I came to call him, Jesus of Nazareth, my Lord. Around 1972 the legal title was changed to TWI.

This notion of label quota and name counting goes back years. Whenever I see Jesus quotas brought up I suspect there's a dirth of even wrong argumentation. It's pathetic. I should dig up the previous Jesus quota accusations I've seen. Actually, there was one just last week, but I let it slide.

[waysider]

Mike

I used to feel sorry for you in a strange kind of way.

A seemingly misguided soul pitching a product that is desperately flawed.

Still, it's your choice to believe what you want and I can respect that.

Or so I thought.

But then I had a revelation of my own ( the dictionary-definition kind, not the snowstorm variety.)

It was while I observed how you posted on the CF&S thread.

I saw how you came out of the comfort zone of PFAL and spun your twisted logic to try to defend a class that couldn't possibly have been God-Breathed and really had nothing to do with your pro-PFAL arguments.

It hasn't really been about PFAL at all, has it?

That's just a smokescreen to mask what really amounts to a massive effort to exonerate Wierwille.

Were you part of his "inner circle"?

Or, did you, perhaps, unsuccessfully aspire to be part of his "inner circle"?

How long have you known about his misdeeds?

Twenty years, thirty years?

Before there was a Waydale or GSC?

Do you think if you can exonerate him you can experience that exoneration vicariously?

He's not worth defending.

His ministry and snowstorm were a hoax

[Raf]

Mike,

Again, nice try. We've been through this before. Let's not bother, k?

[Mike]

Mike

I used to feel sorry for you in a strange kind of way.

A seemingly misguided soul pitching a product that is desperately flawed.

Still, it's your choice to believe what you want and I can respect that.

Or so I thought.

But then I had a revelation of my own ( the dictionary-definition kind, not the snowstorm variety.)

It was while I observed how you posted on the CF&S thread.

I saw how you came out of the comfort zone of PFAL and spun your twisted logic to try to defend a class that couldn't possibly have been God-Breathed and really had nothing to do with your pro-PFAL arguments.

You're right in that I'm not looking at CF&S as God-breathed, though the section of JCPS is. One of the main points I WAS getting at, in addition to the genuine value the class did have, was that most posters have not diligently maintained their memory of that class and many other twi experiences. You also seem to have overlooked my complaint against that class, that it did not address the needs of singles seeking mates.

It hasn't really been about PFAL at all, has it?

That's just a smokescreen to mask what really amounts to a massive effort to exonerate Wierwille.

Were you part of his "inner circle"?

Or, did you, perhaps, unsuccessfully aspire to be part of his "inner circle"?

Not only was I not a part of that inner circle, but you have no idea HOW FAR I was to any semblance of it. It's even IRONIC how far I was from it considering this context.

How long have you known about his misdeeds?

Twenty years, thirty years?

Since my first readings of my KJV in 1971 where I saw this in I John 1:8-10 ...

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves,

and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,

and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar,

and his word is not in us.

I sadly observed many grads who did not brace themselves like the way I did on this issue. I saw a lot of hero worship of vpw. Maybe you were one? It seems a lot of impetuous vpw worshipers of those days, who did not do their homework and take I John 1 to heart, were crushed and became impetuous vpw haters. Maybe you are one?

How long have you been aware of YOUR misdeeds, starting with the greatest sin of loving anything greater than God, and proceeding downward to the more trivial ones ... like sexual ones?

Have you taken I john to heart regarding yourself?

How about Romans 7?

Do you look at yourself like Paul did and say things about yourself like "Oh wretched man that I am. Who's going to rescue me from this deathly life. Oh yes! Praise God for Jesus Christ! (Raf, are you counting?) So, then even though I'm rotten through and through in my flesh, I can walk in the spirit and grow there. Praise God!"

Do you think of yourself this way, or do you think that was only for Paul?

Before there was a Waydale or GSC?

Do you think if you can exonerate him you can experience that exoneration vicariously?

Well Church Lady, I think his defense attorney (Raf, do you kow who he is... hint: I John again) is pretty powerful. I'm counting on him for my exoneration. How about yours?

He's not worth defending.

Tell that to the big guy (RAF it's JC, keep counting). He may differ with you.

His ministry and snowstorm were a hoax

It works fine for me. What's YOUR problem?

Edited January 21, 2009 by Mike

[sirguessalot]

kinduva bummer how often this happens...plz permit me a moment to whine...

i feel that i've composed a few posts that contribute to the topic of this thread, perhaps even worthy of stimulating reasoned dialogue and debate that is relevant to our various trans-twi experiences.

yet, it seems the usual circular easier paths of argumentation are valued way more here

anyone else notice this?

anyone wonder why?

i do

[waysider]

kinduva bummer how often this happens...plz permit me a moment to whine...

i feel that i've composed a few posts that contribute to the topic of this thread, perhaps even worthy of stimulating reasoned dialogue and debate that is relevant to our various trans-twi experiences.

yet, it seems the usual circular easier paths of argumentation are valued way more here

anyone else notice this?

anyone wonder why?

i do

Probably has something to do with all the commercial interruptions.

[Mike]

kinduva bummer how often this happens...plz permit me a moment to whine...

i feel that i've composed a few posts that contribute to the topic of this thread, perhaps even worthy of stimulating reasoned dialogue and debate that is relevant to our various trans-twi experiences.

yet, it seems the usual circular easier paths of argumentation are valued way more here

anyone else notice this?

anyone wonder why?

i do

Todd,

I think, and this is respectfully put, as a friend, it's because you're too poetic and flowery the way you psot and too intellectual in what you post.

I find it a lot of work reading them, and then very challenging to match both your style and the heady things you bring up. If you downgraded them to street style I could handle them better. That's just my opinion.

Edited January 21, 2009 by Mike

[Ham]

yet, it seems the usual circular easier paths of argumentation are valued way more here

anyone else notice this?

anyone wonder why?

i do

I've wondered.. not this thread only but others as well.

Some people just happen to be stuck traversing a rather large cloverleaf on the highway of life.. afraid to go forward (beyond "doc" vic "praise be his name"'s "research").. and terrified to get off the highway..

but who am I to say it's "wrong".. maybe it's better off than being on zoloft or something..

[sirguessalot]

Todd,

I think, and this is respectfully put, as a friend, it's because you're too poetic and flowery the way you psot and too intellectual in what you post.

I find it a lot of work reading them, and then very challenging to match both your style and the heady things you bring up. If you downgraded them to street style I could handle them better. That's just my opinion.

thanks for the reply, Mike

same thing youve said to me before

honestly, a confession...i cant bring myself to believe on the reason you've given

for what its worth...i just went back and reread through the half dozen posts ive added to this thread...and all are 99% clear plain street level english...i could only find 1 or 2 less-than-mainstream words...and where i do use some metaphor, i tend to qualify it as such

as always...i welcome you (or anyone) to specifically point out (by quoting) something that is too poetic, too flowery, or too intellectual for you

i think i'm as capable of clarifying as anyone else

...or maybe im being too clear?

[Mike]

Ok, I'll try reading with a fresh attitude.

I could be wrong and just stuck in an old mode.

[sirguessalot]

I've wondered.. not this thread only but others as well.

Some people just happen to be stuck traversing a rather large cloverleaf on the highway of life.. afraid to go forward (beyond "doc" vic "praise be his name"'s "research").. and terrified to get off the highway..

but who am I to say it's "wrong".. maybe it's better off than being on zoloft or something..

yeah...i get this

...and yeah...it could be A LOT worse...

but i also wonder why some seem to prefer to feed and argue and debate perspectives they consider most outlandish and perhaps easiest to debunk...

apologies for being

[Bolshevik]

Hey Bolshevik, howdy.

There's two question marks here so there must be two questions. Let's see if I've got them right.

Q) Do you believe Dr. Wierwille's writings hold water?

A) Yes.

Q) Why?

A) It's because I've discovered, in coming back to what Dr. Wierwille wrote, that it is very easy and simple and pleasant to live in. There is fresh air to breathe and clean, clear water to drink. There is good food to eat and shelter.

. . .

Air, water, food and shelter. These are the reasons that you believe Wierwille's words are true?

[Mike]

stephen and jesus and paul...

...and the other millions of millions of people

who have been oppressed and killed in religious history

(some of whom are being oppressed and killed now, btw)

are being oppressed and killed

not just for their private exclusive cultural belief system

but for their actions and behaviors in this world

for speaking truth to power

for resisting oppression and slavery

for empowering self and others to restore a just balance to systems

...religious, political, cultural, sexual, economic and otherwise, etc...

neither vpw (nor us) got tortured and killed for beliefs or actions, doctrine or practice

because they were not different enough from a big bad beast to alarm a such a system to act

But we live in a system where this is generally illegal. He (and we) did experience snubbing and slanderous accusations for his stand, and this still happens. The church world did mobilize against TWI and withoug just cause. We were included in all the cult books and were inaccurately handled.

genuinely stand up and speak to truth and suffering and such

and new opponents will likely come looking and worse

depending on depth and degree of nerve being touched

but vpw's life was like a walk through the park ...luxurious

a rock star moment compared to those who actually suffer and die

How could you know this, except second hand? And your second hand sources are highly biased. Many of the early years of his ministry were done on a shoestring and he often lost his supporters as he presented more and more research. From 1942 to 1970 there was hardly any response, except negative, to his work. That must have been very discouraging, and he'd have thrown in the towel (like he almost did in 1942) had he not some deep drive, like the audible voice and the snowstorm confirmation.

doctrine and practice seemed motivated largely by a culture of pleasure, materialism, gain, I disagree here.

preaching principles of health and wealth while wasting money, screwing around, drinking and smoking

with a high degree of avoidance and inexperience with real pain, suffering, darkness, woundedness, sacrifice, service, devotion...

I disagree here.

his life of behaviour/actions/disciplines shows that had not come close

to witnessing any significant relevant game-changing perspective

that one might compare to saints or prophets

as if he was too wild and immature and undisciplined to become wise

and perhaps a wisdom "he knew that he never knew" hit him fast hard at the end of his life

as if sinners can chase only heavens

while saints can march through the hells

I think you're ignoring the bulk of what actually happened and basing a second hand opinion on a very constricted and negatively biased set of sources.

..

thanks for the inspiration, seaspray

Air, water, food and shelter. These are the reasons that you believe Wierwille's words are true?

Have you ever heard of figurative speech? If not, look at my response to Raf's criticism of the same seaspray post.

[sirguessalot]

Ok, I'll try reading with a fresh attitude.

I could be wrong and just stuck in an old mode.

thanks Mike

[Raf]

Good one, Mike.

Interesting. See how easy it is to talk about Jesus Christ when you focus on the Bible rather than PFAL?

I'm just saying.

(and yes, I'm just kidding).

Honestly, I think there's a difference between being a sinner, which everyone is, and being sinister. Of necessity, God works with sinners (not a lot of options on that front). But to expect me to believe Wierwille is what you claim him to be, God would have to work not with a sinner, but with the sinister; not with a man who occasionally succumbed to evil, but with a man who occasionally rose above it; not with a man who failed to be what he knew to be, but a man who knew what he was and reveled in it.

You compare Wierwille to Saul the apostle, I to Saul the king. You compare Wierwille to the penitent sinner David, I to the unpenitent and ultimately disgraced Solomon. And that's being gracious, for it assumes that at some point there truly was a desire to serve God. Unfortunately, Wierwille ended up serving man, not in any noble sense, but he served man up to the altar of his own greed, his own lusts.

Do his misdeeds mark his entire life? No. Of course not. Most of the people he met, he did not hurt. Most of the people who heard him preach were inspired by it, I dare say. And bravo for that.

But he didn't need to prey upon more than a handful of God's people to earn the mark of predator. He didn't have to manipulate everyone he met to be a manipulator. As I've mentioned over and over: Jeffrey Dahmer only ate a miniscule fraction of the people he met over his lifetime. A teensy weensy... almost immeasurable percentage. Defend what you want of the cult leader Victor Paul Wierwille. He preyed upon God's people, in Christ's name. It wasn't merely sin. It was a calculated lifestyle of manipulation of Scripture and people for his own lustful ends.

Sad, yes. Tragic? Depends on his motives to begin with. A legacy? Maybe. He'll have the legacy of L. Ron Hubbard, Charles Taze Russell, Mary Baker Eddy... when the final history of Victor Paul Wierwille is written, he will take his place among the second or third tier of those who traded in money and lives in Christ's name. He will be, perhaps, a footnote at best (ironic, considering his own failure to use such inconveniences).

And Christianity will move on.

[Bolshevik]

Have you ever heard of figurative speech? If not, look at my response to Raf's criticism of the same seaspray post.

I have no idea what you mean.