Thanks for that snapshot. How you received the PFAL class material sounds familiar, I know of a couple others who give similar accounts although I don't remember, maybe didn't get, all the details. Although Doug found himself at odds with the Way Inc., having known Doug and his wife at and around that time for many years I would assume with confidence his motives were reasonable and intelligent, if at cross purposes with TWI. (and in '86/'87 I would say from first hand experience they were winging it and sending out not only mixed directives from Ohio in any area of endeavor you went to them with, but also seeing the cumulative effect of much of their own field' "leadership"'s inability to hold to common sense or reasonable courtesy).
On the matter of PFAL class materials and media - Geer said throughout 1986 and 1987 several times, and speaks of it in the "POP" screed, that his own solution to the difficulties to working with the Way Internatial was to seek and finally secure full rights to all the Way's "Bookstore", materials, books and media.
This was due to the fact the Way was slow and inefficient in processing their bookstore orders. He said the attitude in Europe at the time was "if those Yanks don't give a dam, fine, we don't either". So he took the issue in hand and secured rights to duplicate, print and distribute in Europe.
I don't know exactly what that did or didn't include but in the years following I kept hearing about people getting their stuff 'straight from Gartmore" so as not to have to go through the Way International. And although Geer said he had no intention of undermining the Way Nash in Ohio, his actions clearly contributed to that by providing a work around. I never participated in the whole affair, by that time I was moving away from the mess - too much shrapnel, too much "collateral damage" to even the most inocuous and benign endeavors.
I don't have even an idle interest in the eBay sale. Who cares? I'll leave it to those who do. I wouldn't be surprised however to find that any number of class sets have floated around for years, gotten from any number of sources. It was no great secret that as people left the Way in the late '80's, early '90's they were carting out all kind of things, copies and originals, of whatever they'd stashed away. It's shown up over the years, sometimes with explanations of rights and ownership, some with no explanation at all.
Thanks for that snapshot. How you received the PFAL class material sounds familiar...
You are welcome.
... He said the attitude in Europe at the time was "if those Yanks don't give a dam, fine, we don't either".
I think that sums it up well.
... It was no great secret that as people left the Way in the late '80's, early '90's they were carting out all kind of things, copies and originals, of whatever they'd stashed away. It's shown up over the years, sometimes with explanations of rights and ownership, some with no explanation at all.
I agree.
... P.S. How'd your house go?
Okay. We ran out of money so the construction stopped. Focusing on livestock now, orchards, greenhouses, and sustainable living stuff.
We have goats and sheep, chickens and hogs.
I hope to finish the leech field this summer, then add a garage before fall.
We still need to finish the interior, and then the wrap-around porch.
We have been canning a lot of food, sharing with neighbors, and hosting weekly dinners in our home with neighbors.
Our chest freezer is full, and we are finding that we actually eat far less than we had thought. I have a 55-gallon drum outside buried in a snow bank full of frozen meats. Our chest freezer is full, and we just don't have any more room inside to store frozen food. We have played with freeze-drying food, but I need a better vacuum chamber.
I have a bunch of taps that I am working in some of our maple trees. but no finished syrup yet. Hopefully soon.
Our bees have not been doing so well, but we have one colony that is still surviving. I hope to split it into two colonies this spring.
So really there has not been much going on here.
We have gotten back involved with a TWI twig. I have attended their 'new' foundational class. I have rather avoided GSC as there tends to be a lot of anti-TWI attitudes here. Our Region Coordinator is a guy who I witnessed to.
Galen's position was that he was given a copy of PFAL by the Way (Limb) of California and that The Way of California was somehow independent of The Way International, giving them the right to give away PFAL, or assign rights to others. If I remember correctly, Galen received his copy during the so-called fog years when the leadership of the California Limb was not following the dictates of the Board of Trustees.
If a similar position is being taken by the person selling PFAL on eBay, I believe that they are mistaken in the assumption that the rights to PFAL were ever assigned for use without the supervision and control by The Way International.
I agree just because someone gave it to you does not mean it was theirs to give. The Way of Kansas was a seperate entity as well once but the tapes were property of the Way International.
I agree just because someone gave it to you does not mean it was theirs to give. The Way of Kansas was a seperate entity as well once but the tapes were property of the Way International.
how do you know that? I already asked if there was a signed contract stating terms of use. if there wasn't, then twi only had first sale rights and after that they cannot control where a tape or set of tapes or a syllabus goes.
how did they specify it? is there a written contract signed by each person receiving the tapes, or a blanket contract filed somewhere signed by each borrower, as we do when we apply for a library card?
what I want to know is if there is a legal contract. if not, then the physical transfer of the tapes from twi to an individual qualifies as "first sale" and twi's downstream rights to control are terminated.
plus, anyone purchasing the tapes on good faith is not bound by any contract entered into by someone else with twi, so they are free to dispose of the tapes as they see fit.
I know you think you are an attorney but as I told you the tapes belong to The Way International. There is no first sale. or any other sale they own the copyrights ,and the tape sets always have always will. Those who gave ,loaned ,copied sets did so on there own much for the reasons Socks described, none the less though maybe they felt for good reason it still was not theirs to do so.
The "first sale" doctrine says that a person who buys a legally produced copyrighted work may "sell or otherwise dispose" of the work as he sees fit, subject to some important conditions and exceptions. Section 109(a). In other words, if you legally buy a book or CD, "first sale" gives you the right to loan that book or CD to your friend. Libraries heavily depend on the first sale doctrine to lend books and other items to patrons.
Class instructors once approved were loaned, not sold a set of tapes which have a set number. Each set is on record in the Limb as their property, I assume TWI has a master list for which Limb has what sets. once approved to coordinate a class you were issued a set of tapes, materials, a instructors guide which specifies how one is to run their class . At the end of that guide is specified that the tapes must be returned within a allotted time period. If one wishes to be a class instructor that was the arrangement . Believe me they kept control of where their stuff was, when they came to reclaim their property once they decided that we were no longer on their side they came with a printout of every piece, and they counted and packed each one.
Class instructors once approved were loaned, not sold a set of tapes which have a set number. Each set is on record in the Limb as their property, I assume TWI has a master list for which Limb has what sets. once approved to coordinate a class you were issued a set of tapes, materials, a instructors guide which specifies how one is to run their class . At the end of that guide is specified that the tapes must be returned within a allotted time period. If one wishes to be a class instructor that was the arrangement . Believe me they kept control of where their stuff was, when they came to reclaim their property once they decided that we were no longer on their side they came with a printout of every piece, and they counted and packed each one.
was there a signed contract, though? the arrangement you're describing has not stood up in court. you cannot print in the materials any limitations on transfer after "first sale" (which actually means the transfer from distributor to customer, and includes gifts) and expect that to hold up in court. if there isn't a signed lease, the tapes weren't leased. if there isn't a signed rental agreement, the tapes weren't rented. if there isn't a signed lending agreement, the tapes weren't loaned. if twi did not meet the conditions of licensing their tapes, then they had no legal right to show up on anyone's doorstep and demand them back, regardless of what their records say. in fact, they shouldn't have been allowed to reclaim their property without a warrant and a sheriff in attendance, after proving in court that they had a claim on the tapes.
I know you think you are an attorney but as I told you the tapes belong to The Way International. There is no first sale. or any other sale they own the copyrights ,and the tape sets always have always will. Those who gave ,loaned ,copied sets did so on there own much for the reasons Socks described, none the less though maybe they felt for good reason it still was not theirs to do so.
you think that I think I'm an attorney? how do you know I think that?
I asked how you know the tapes belong to twi and how they're avoiding the first sale doctrine. they can claim ownership all they want, but without a contractual agreement, copyright law prevails over twi's delusional ideas of ownership.
OK I almost cannot believe I am going to agree (to some extent) with WD.
If you have the sale of an item then indeed it can be resold with no more royalties to the original author - and the author has relinquished rights to claiming additional royalties. If you copy it and resell it then indeed you have broken the law. If this was not true then you could not buy a used book on Amazon or at the dozens of used bookstores in Kensington Square Boston.
WRT to the cultic indoctrination class called PFAL - it was never sold (at least on a regular basis) - it was shipped (as noted by WD) with a serial number and was expected to be returned. Hence if you have a copy, and the PFAL was copyrighted - well you might be on thin ice.
Your "collaterals" are a different story. You paid for them - they are your property - you are free to sell them on Ebay or at the local landfill.
A lot of the argument about legality keeps going back to "first sale", but as WhiteDove, and now RumRunner have stated, TWI didn't sell PFAL. Class Coordinators, whether they were Way Corps or not, salaried or not, were acting as agents of TWI to make the class available for people to take. From everything I have heard about the rationale for distributing the class by people who were either out of TWI or acting at cross purposes with the BOT while still on salary or in a TWI-assigned position, it was not a legally reasoned out decision, but an effort to keep what they considered "The Word" available to the masses in the face of perceived apostacy by the "legal" leadership of TWI.
Whether these classes that are floating around are legal or not, surely it would take a lot of effort for TWI to track them down, and surely whoever has them now is at least one step removed from their being appropriated from their legal owners, TWI, and not liable for prosecution.
The first-sale doctrine is a limitation on copyright that was recognized by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1908 and subsequently codified in the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 109. The doctrine allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e., sell or give away) a particular lawfully made copy of the copyrighted work without permission once it has been obtained. That means that copyright holder's rights to control the change of ownership of a particular copy end once that copy is sold, as long as no additional copies are made. This doctrine is also referred to as the "first sale rule" or "exhaustion rule".
The "first sale" doctrine says that a person who buys a legally produced copyrighted work may "sell or otherwise dispose" of the work as he sees fit, subject to some important conditions and exceptions. Section 109(a). In other words, if you legally buy a book or CD, "first sale" gives you the right to loan that book or CD to your friend. Libraries heavily depend on the first sale doctrine to lend books and other items to patrons.
A legal principle that limits a rightsholder’s rights to control content after it has been sold for the first time. According to first sale doctrine, lawful ownership of an item, such as a music CD or a book, is not the same as owning the copyright of the item
I'll repeat no tapes were sold, as such no first sale, they were not gifts nor were they leased or rented, They were sent as materials to run a class as an approved instructor for the Way International, upon filing a class materials request form which included the guide on how to instruct the class and care of materials that were in your possession. That form was signed and tape sets sent were numbered on that record as in your possession for the space of time allotted on that form, that you sent to run the class. The copyrights to the tapes belong to TWI, the tapes belong to TWI. They can prove that they do by the set number that was issued and recorded on your signed planning form, there is a shipping record of such to prove delivery. They hold the record of copyright.
in fact, they shouldn't have been allowed to reclaim their property without a warrant and a sheriff in attendance, after proving in court that they had a claim on the tapes.
Of course we had the option but then I knew that the materials belonged to them, what would be the point?
A lot of the argument about legality keeps going back to "first sale", but as WhiteDove, and now RumRunner have stated, TWI didn't sell PFAL. Class Coordinators, whether they were Way Corps or not, salaried or not, were acting as agents of TWI to make the class available for people to take. From everything I have heard about the rationale for distributing the class by people who were either out of TWI or acting at cross purposes with the BOT while still on salary or in a TWI-assigned position, it was not a legally reasoned out decision, but an effort to keep what they considered "The Word" available to the masses in the face of perceived apostacy by the "legal" leadership of TWI.
Correct
Whether these classes that are floating around are legal or not, surely it would take a lot of effort for TWI to track them down, and surely whoever has them now is at least one step removed from their being appropriated from their legal owners, TWI, and not liable for prosecution.
Well it would unles one was dumb enough to post it on ebay for the world to see . Yes? I agree there is thin ice for prosecution but I would thiink they could receive their stolen property back. They can prove there was never sale of the item and the tape set number will match their log of ownership.
Why doesn't someone just call the guy and ask him. He's listed a phone number and it's a real number. Then you could *gasp* stop speculating.
No one is speculating just explaining to someone that so far wants to ignore the obvious.
Well it would unles one was dumb enough to post it on ebay for the world to see . Yes? I agree there is thin ice for prosecution but I would thiink they could receive their stolen property back. They can prove there was never sale of the item and the tape set number will match their log of ownership.
No one is speculating just explaining to someone that so far wants to ignore the obvious.
Ebay's got rules about selling other people's (stolen) goods. I guess if I were going to plunk down $5k OBO, I would want to see a bill of sale that proves that person is the owner of said materials. As it is, my husband (boyfriend at the time) paid $100, which was about $75 too much for me to take the class.
This appears to be the audio version he's selling.
As it is, the guy doesn't appear to be hiding who he is (it took me about 2 minutes to find out) and he is open for questions.
The only other thought I had was that he must think TWI people are keen discerners of the truth gullible. Where would he get that idea?
UMG's lawsuit against Augustino will test the boundaries of the First Sale Doctrine. UMG may argue that the First Sale Doctrine only applies to sales of copyrighted materials and not to CDs it gives away. But EFF attorney Fred von Lohmann tells Ars that the courts have applied the First Sale Doctrine to gifts in the past. For example, he points to a 1984 case in which Disney tried to prevent the auction of film cells that had been given to a former employee. The court found that the First Sale Doctrine applied and allowed the auction to go forward.
additionally, no bill of sale is required to sell most tangible items, cars being one exception I can think of. can twi prove he stole the materials? if they gave them to him without a contract for their return, then he owns them, therefore the first sale doctrine applies.
I know of a PFAL audio set. They were given to a friend of mine by the Founder of TWI in about 1979 "as a gift", or so it was told to me back at the time. No mention was made of returning them and no thing was signed regarding them. I have no idea whether that is a deciding factor in whether one can legally sell them, I am just saying there was no agreement to return them, no written contract as to their use, and their return was not requested when my friend left TWI
TWI has not run that class nor sold its materials in how many years? Would that have any bearing? Abandonment? Interesting questions here, and I hope Mr. Schle&&&& (I forget the name Tazia mentioned) is able to successfully complete his sale.
~HAP
edited to ad:
the ebay set is not the set I know of. I can guarantee that.
Secondly, I don't know who is selling the PD SNS tapes, but if perchance they read here......I thought the almost complete 1974?-85 set I gave to someone in Denver was for a tape library. I wish I had been told they would be CD'd and sold, I MIGHT have asked for a copy of the CD's, although I do not know why I would have, now that I think about it a little more. :) Still, it would have been nice to have been offered it.
Sounds like you're living a good life, Galen. We're very much "on the grid" as they say, so outside of a banner year for tomatoes and melons, and some smoked this and that, we eat out of the fridge. But I have been researching freshwater prawn farming, small scale. Real small. Don't know if that'll ever get off the paper and into the water but it's an interesting field. Glad to hear all's well. Those plans you posted of the house are around here somewhere but I couldn't find them. Looked like quite a spread.
I thought of three things in relation to the PFAL tapes - 1. You did military service in submarines. You should get a set for that alone. 2. If Doug gave them to you at that time, it tells me he trusted you, figured you to be responsible and a good steward of what he considered of high value. That may not mean much to anyone else but it counts for something that, in it's day, counted for a lot. 3. You've done with them what should have always been done with them - shared them responsibly without cost.
I'll repeat no tapes were sold, as such no first sale, they were not gifts nor were they leased or rented, They were sent as materials to run a class as an approved instructor for the Way International, upon filing a class materials request form which included the guide on how to instruct the class and care of materials that were in your possession. That form was signed and tape sets sent were numbered on that record as in your possession for the space of time allotted on that form, that you sent to run the class. The copyrights to the tapes belong to TWI, the tapes belong to TWI. They can prove that they do by the set number that was issued and recorded on your signed planning form, there is a shipping record of such to prove delivery. They hold the record of copyright.
True. There's no argument on the ownership. Some of the copies floating around might have come from Geer or Europe and technically not be covered by the U.S. Way's rights. Dunno.
This seller's story must be a hooter, that's for sure, because if they have them legitimately and can sell them legally - hey. Why not? Maybe someone will start selling little glass bottles of water from The River Jordan, from the "Summer of '70", for 50 bucks a pop. Or "Authentic Ashes" from the Way Woods fire circle.
I know of a PFAL audio set. They were given to a friend of mine by the Founder of TWI in about 1979 "as a gift", or so it was told to me back at the time. No mention was made of returning them and no thing was signed regarding them. I have no idea whether that is a deciding factor in whether one can legally sell them, I am just saying there was no agreement to return them, no written contract as to their use, and their return was not requested when my friend left TWI
pure and simple, if there is no written contract specifying use, physical transfer of a tangible object means a transfer of ownership. first sale doctrine applies and your friend can legally sell or give away his copy at will.
TWI has not run that class nor sold its materials in how many years? Would that have any bearing? Abandonment?
it is possible to abandon a copyright and place something in the public domain, but it is an active and not a passive thing... they'd have to announce it somewhere. otherwise normal copyright law applies. if it was ever distributed without notice back when notice was required, subsequent copyright notices would constitute an illegal copyright claim because you can't take something out of public domain once you place it there.
additionally, no bill of sale is required to sell most tangible items, cars being one exception I can think of. can twi prove he stole the materials? if they gave them to him without a contract for their return, then he owns them, therefore the first sale doctrine applies.
Weak...... right..... that's why every definition posted includes reference to first selling an item ,as opposed to your theory that it need not be so. Nothing weak there it is fact that it is the key component.
Speaking of weak your example speaks of giving away CDs and giving gifts despite the fact as stated by posters in the know , these tapes were never a gift, or given as such ,they were supplied to run a class for a specific time period to then be returned. You assume something was for sale it was not.
Weak...... right..... that's why every definition posted includes reference to first selling an item ,as opposed to your theory that it need not be so. Nothing weak there it is fact that it is the key component.
Speaking of weak your example speaks of giving away CDs and giving gifts despite the fact as stated by posters in the know , these tapes were never a gift, or given as such ,they were supplied to run a class for a specific time period to then be returned. You assume something was for sale it was not.
the courts have established that no sale is necessary for a change in ownership to have taken place. if Disney can't stop someone from doing something, twi sure can't.
what I really want to know is if there was a contract specifying the use of the tapes when they were given to the individuals. you said there was something they signed regarding care of the tapes and running the class, but was it a contract for the return of the tapes when specific conditions were met? because if it wasn't, then twi did not retain any legal ownership rights.
and just to clear up any possible confusion, copyright ownership is separate from ownership of a legally distributed copy of something. a copyright owner cannot control the distribution of a legally made copy past their own transfer of it to someone else. the exception to "first sale" termination of control of a tangible object is if it becomes subject to lending under the terms of a written and signed contract at any point in the distribution chain.
I remember some sort of paper coming with the materials that specified a return date but I don't remember ever signing anything that said I would. Anyway, this whole discussion puts a different complexion on the argument that all the plagiarized stuff really belonged to God, or whatever that rationalization was.
... what I really want to know is if there was a contract specifying the use of the tapes when they were given to the individuals. you said there was something they signed regarding care of the tapes and running the class, but was it a contract for the return of the tapes when specific conditions were met? because if it wasn't, then twi did not retain any legal ownership rights.
When PFAL was handed to a TC for the purpose of running a class no documents were ever signed. No 'agreement' was negotiated. You were given the class to run it. Nothing else was considered.
The only 'briefing' that I ever got when doing PFAL classes for TWI, was that sometimes I would have to get a segment from another TC, and when done I had to pass it off to a third TC. Because there were so many classes running at the same time. that was the only form of briefing, or conditions put on handling the class.
I agree, ordinarily the class (film or audio) set were given for a specific duration. (to be returned at the end of the class). I ran enough of those things to remember that, although I don't recall signing anything to that effect, I think it was a page in the instructor's manual maybe????). I vaguely recall it was in some written format. I always dutifully returned the materials.
The set I was speaking of was in another category, and was not part of the normal PFAL system. What I am saying is that they were not ALWAYS given for a specific duration. This set was simply given for my friend's use, by the President and Founder
When PFAL was handed to a TC for the purpose of running a class no documents were ever signed. No 'agreement' was negotiated. You were given the class to run it. Nothing else was considered.
The only 'briefing' that I ever got when doing PFAL classes for TWI, was that sometimes I would have to get a segment from another TC, and when done I had to pass it off to a third TC. Because there were so many classes running at the same time. that was the only form of briefing, or conditions put on handling the class.
Oh yeah Galen, now that you mention it, sets did get shuffled that way, although mostly it was one set being shared by two or more classes I think in my experience. I also agree nothing was ever signed by me, (in my areas), and I did not "check them out" with library system cards or any negotiation.
Darn, no bids yet on it?
oooh, there is a Tower of Power album listed, with Skip Mesquite and Dave Garibaldi!
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Tzaia
I've already supplied the name of the guy near the top. The 3s are e; the 1s are i; and the @ is an a. I did a reverse lookup of the phone number.
potato
BINGO WE HAVE A WINNER!
Tzaia
Without clear verbiage concerning distribution rights, resale rights, or sale rights, TWI is probably up a creek without a paddle. I would have to think that if TWI wanted to or could, they would have
socks
Hi Galen -
Thanks for that snapshot. How you received the PFAL class material sounds familiar, I know of a couple others who give similar accounts although I don't remember, maybe didn't get, all the details. Although Doug found himself at odds with the Way Inc., having known Doug and his wife at and around that time for many years I would assume with confidence his motives were reasonable and intelligent, if at cross purposes with TWI. (and in '86/'87 I would say from first hand experience they were winging it and sending out not only mixed directives from Ohio in any area of endeavor you went to them with, but also seeing the cumulative effect of much of their own field' "leadership"'s inability to hold to common sense or reasonable courtesy).
On the matter of PFAL class materials and media - Geer said throughout 1986 and 1987 several times, and speaks of it in the "POP" screed, that his own solution to the difficulties to working with the Way Internatial was to seek and finally secure full rights to all the Way's "Bookstore", materials, books and media.
This was due to the fact the Way was slow and inefficient in processing their bookstore orders. He said the attitude in Europe at the time was "if those Yanks don't give a dam, fine, we don't either". So he took the issue in hand and secured rights to duplicate, print and distribute in Europe.
I don't know exactly what that did or didn't include but in the years following I kept hearing about people getting their stuff 'straight from Gartmore" so as not to have to go through the Way International. And although Geer said he had no intention of undermining the Way Nash in Ohio, his actions clearly contributed to that by providing a work around. I never participated in the whole affair, by that time I was moving away from the mess - too much shrapnel, too much "collateral damage" to even the most inocuous and benign endeavors.
I don't have even an idle interest in the eBay sale. Who cares? I'll leave it to those who do. I wouldn't be surprised however to find that any number of class sets have floated around for years, gotten from any number of sources. It was no great secret that as people left the Way in the late '80's, early '90's they were carting out all kind of things, copies and originals, of whatever they'd stashed away. It's shown up over the years, sometimes with explanations of rights and ownership, some with no explanation at all.
P.S. How'd your house go?
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Galen
You are welcome.
I think that sums it up well.
I agree.
Okay. We ran out of money so the construction stopped. Focusing on livestock now, orchards, greenhouses, and sustainable living stuff.
We have goats and sheep, chickens and hogs.
I hope to finish the leech field this summer, then add a garage before fall.
We still need to finish the interior, and then the wrap-around porch.
We have been canning a lot of food, sharing with neighbors, and hosting weekly dinners in our home with neighbors.
Our chest freezer is full, and we are finding that we actually eat far less than we had thought. I have a 55-gallon drum outside buried in a snow bank full of frozen meats. Our chest freezer is full, and we just don't have any more room inside to store frozen food. We have played with freeze-drying food, but I need a better vacuum chamber.
I have a bunch of taps that I am working in some of our maple trees. but no finished syrup yet. Hopefully soon.
Our bees have not been doing so well, but we have one colony that is still surviving. I hope to split it into two colonies this spring.
So really there has not been much going on here.
We have gotten back involved with a TWI twig. I have attended their 'new' foundational class. I have rather avoided GSC as there tends to be a lot of anti-TWI attitudes here. Our Region Coordinator is a guy who I witnessed to.
May God bless you. :)
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excathedra
galen, hi!
love you miss you
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WhiteDove
I agree just because someone gave it to you does not mean it was theirs to give. The Way of Kansas was a seperate entity as well once but the tapes were property of the Way International.
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potato
how do you know that? I already asked if there was a signed contract stating terms of use. if there wasn't, then twi only had first sale rights and after that they cannot control where a tape or set of tapes or a syllabus goes.
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WhiteDove
I know you think you are an attorney but as I told you the tapes belong to The Way International. There is no first sale. or any other sale they own the copyrights ,and the tape sets always have always will. Those who gave ,loaned ,copied sets did so on there own much for the reasons Socks described, none the less though maybe they felt for good reason it still was not theirs to do so.
Class instructors once approved were loaned, not sold a set of tapes which have a set number. Each set is on record in the Limb as their property, I assume TWI has a master list for which Limb has what sets. once approved to coordinate a class you were issued a set of tapes, materials, a instructors guide which specifies how one is to run their class . At the end of that guide is specified that the tapes must be returned within a allotted time period. If one wishes to be a class instructor that was the arrangement . Believe me they kept control of where their stuff was, when they came to reclaim their property once they decided that we were no longer on their side they came with a printout of every piece, and they counted and packed each one.
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potato
was there a signed contract, though? the arrangement you're describing has not stood up in court. you cannot print in the materials any limitations on transfer after "first sale" (which actually means the transfer from distributor to customer, and includes gifts) and expect that to hold up in court. if there isn't a signed lease, the tapes weren't leased. if there isn't a signed rental agreement, the tapes weren't rented. if there isn't a signed lending agreement, the tapes weren't loaned. if twi did not meet the conditions of licensing their tapes, then they had no legal right to show up on anyone's doorstep and demand them back, regardless of what their records say. in fact, they shouldn't have been allowed to reclaim their property without a warrant and a sheriff in attendance, after proving in court that they had a claim on the tapes.
you think that I think I'm an attorney? how do you know I think that?
I asked how you know the tapes belong to twi and how they're avoiding the first sale doctrine. they can claim ownership all they want, but without a contractual agreement, copyright law prevails over twi's delusional ideas of ownership.
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RumRunner
OK I almost cannot believe I am going to agree (to some extent) with WD.
If you have the sale of an item then indeed it can be resold with no more royalties to the original author - and the author has relinquished rights to claiming additional royalties. If you copy it and resell it then indeed you have broken the law. If this was not true then you could not buy a used book on Amazon or at the dozens of used bookstores in Kensington Square Boston.
WRT to the cultic indoctrination class called PFAL - it was never sold (at least on a regular basis) - it was shipped (as noted by WD) with a serial number and was expected to be returned. Hence if you have a copy, and the PFAL was copyrighted - well you might be on thin ice.
Your "collaterals" are a different story. You paid for them - they are your property - you are free to sell them on Ebay or at the local landfill.
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doojable
Mr. Pot... paging Mr. Pot. There's a Mr. Kettle on line one for you."
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Oakspear
A lot of the argument about legality keeps going back to "first sale", but as WhiteDove, and now RumRunner have stated, TWI didn't sell PFAL. Class Coordinators, whether they were Way Corps or not, salaried or not, were acting as agents of TWI to make the class available for people to take. From everything I have heard about the rationale for distributing the class by people who were either out of TWI or acting at cross purposes with the BOT while still on salary or in a TWI-assigned position, it was not a legally reasoned out decision, but an effort to keep what they considered "The Word" available to the masses in the face of perceived apostacy by the "legal" leadership of TWI.
Whether these classes that are floating around are legal or not, surely it would take a lot of effort for TWI to track them down, and surely whoever has them now is at least one step removed from their being appropriated from their legal owners, TWI, and not liable for prosecution.
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WhiteDove
Read
The "first sale" doctrine says that a person who buys a legally produced copyrighted work may "sell or otherwise dispose" of the work as he sees fit, subject to some important conditions and exceptions. Section 109(a). In other words, if you legally buy a book or CD, "first sale" gives you the right to loan that book or CD to your friend. Libraries heavily depend on the first sale doctrine to lend books and other items to patrons.
Read
A legal principle that limits a rightsholder’s rights to control content after it has been sold for the first time. According to first sale doctrine, lawful ownership of an item, such as a music CD or a book, is not the same as owning the copyright of the item
Read
I'll repeat no tapes were sold, as such no first sale, they were not gifts nor were they leased or rented, They were sent as materials to run a class as an approved instructor for the Way International, upon filing a class materials request form which included the guide on how to instruct the class and care of materials that were in your possession. That form was signed and tape sets sent were numbered on that record as in your possession for the space of time allotted on that form, that you sent to run the class. The copyrights to the tapes belong to TWI, the tapes belong to TWI. They can prove that they do by the set number that was issued and recorded on your signed planning form, there is a shipping record of such to prove delivery. They hold the record of copyright.
Of course we had the option but then I knew that the materials belonged to them, what would be the point?
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Tzaia
Why doesn't someone just call the guy and ask him. He's listed a phone number and it's a real number. Then you could *gasp* stop speculating.
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WhiteDove
Well it would unles one was dumb enough to post it on ebay for the world to see . Yes? I agree there is thin ice for prosecution but I would thiink they could receive their stolen property back. They can prove there was never sale of the item and the tape set number will match their log of ownership.
No one is speculating just explaining to someone that so far wants to ignore the obvious.
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Tzaia
Ebay's got rules about selling other people's (stolen) goods. I guess if I were going to plunk down $5k OBO, I would want to see a bill of sale that proves that person is the owner of said materials. As it is, my husband (boyfriend at the time) paid $100, which was about $75 too much for me to take the class.
This appears to be the audio version he's selling.
As it is, the guy doesn't appear to be hiding who he is (it took me about 2 minutes to find out) and he is open for questions.
The only other thought I had was that he must think TWI people are keen discerners of the truth gullible. Where would he get that idea?
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potato
attempting to make your point on the terminology of the word "sale" is weak at best.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/20...kwrap-eulas.ars
additionally, no bill of sale is required to sell most tangible items, cars being one exception I can think of. can twi prove he stole the materials? if they gave them to him without a contract for their return, then he owns them, therefore the first sale doctrine applies.
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HAPe4me
I know of a PFAL audio set. They were given to a friend of mine by the Founder of TWI in about 1979 "as a gift", or so it was told to me back at the time. No mention was made of returning them and no thing was signed regarding them. I have no idea whether that is a deciding factor in whether one can legally sell them, I am just saying there was no agreement to return them, no written contract as to their use, and their return was not requested when my friend left TWI
TWI has not run that class nor sold its materials in how many years? Would that have any bearing? Abandonment? Interesting questions here, and I hope Mr. Schle&&&& (I forget the name Tazia mentioned) is able to successfully complete his sale.
~HAP
edited to ad:
the ebay set is not the set I know of. I can guarantee that.
Secondly, I don't know who is selling the PD SNS tapes, but if perchance they read here......I thought the almost complete 1974?-85 set I gave to someone in Denver was for a tape library. I wish I had been told they would be CD'd and sold, I MIGHT have asked for a copy of the CD's, although I do not know why I would have, now that I think about it a little more. :) Still, it would have been nice to have been offered it.
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socks
Sounds like you're living a good life, Galen. We're very much "on the grid" as they say, so outside of a banner year for tomatoes and melons, and some smoked this and that, we eat out of the fridge. But I have been researching freshwater prawn farming, small scale. Real small. Don't know if that'll ever get off the paper and into the water but it's an interesting field. Glad to hear all's well. Those plans you posted of the house are around here somewhere but I couldn't find them. Looked like quite a spread.
I thought of three things in relation to the PFAL tapes - 1. You did military service in submarines. You should get a set for that alone. 2. If Doug gave them to you at that time, it tells me he trusted you, figured you to be responsible and a good steward of what he considered of high value. That may not mean much to anyone else but it counts for something that, in it's day, counted for a lot. 3. You've done with them what should have always been done with them - shared them responsibly without cost.
True. There's no argument on the ownership. Some of the copies floating around might have come from Geer or Europe and technically not be covered by the U.S. Way's rights. Dunno.
This seller's story must be a hooter, that's for sure, because if they have them legitimately and can sell them legally - hey. Why not? Maybe someone will start selling little glass bottles of water from The River Jordan, from the "Summer of '70", for 50 bucks a pop. Or "Authentic Ashes" from the Way Woods fire circle.
.
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potato
pure and simple, if there is no written contract specifying use, physical transfer of a tangible object means a transfer of ownership. first sale doctrine applies and your friend can legally sell or give away his copy at will.
it is possible to abandon a copyright and place something in the public domain, but it is an active and not a passive thing... they'd have to announce it somewhere. otherwise normal copyright law applies. if it was ever distributed without notice back when notice was required, subsequent copyright notices would constitute an illegal copyright claim because you can't take something out of public domain once you place it there.
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WhiteDove
Weak...... right..... that's why every definition posted includes reference to first selling an item ,as opposed to your theory that it need not be so. Nothing weak there it is fact that it is the key component.
Speaking of weak your example speaks of giving away CDs and giving gifts despite the fact as stated by posters in the know , these tapes were never a gift, or given as such ,they were supplied to run a class for a specific time period to then be returned. You assume something was for sale it was not.
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potato
the courts have established that no sale is necessary for a change in ownership to have taken place. if Disney can't stop someone from doing something, twi sure can't.
what I really want to know is if there was a contract specifying the use of the tapes when they were given to the individuals. you said there was something they signed regarding care of the tapes and running the class, but was it a contract for the return of the tapes when specific conditions were met? because if it wasn't, then twi did not retain any legal ownership rights.
and just to clear up any possible confusion, copyright ownership is separate from ownership of a legally distributed copy of something. a copyright owner cannot control the distribution of a legally made copy past their own transfer of it to someone else. the exception to "first sale" termination of control of a tangible object is if it becomes subject to lending under the terms of a written and signed contract at any point in the distribution chain.
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waysider
Geeze, it's been an awful long time.
I remember some sort of paper coming with the materials that specified a return date but I don't remember ever signing anything that said I would. Anyway, this whole discussion puts a different complexion on the argument that all the plagiarized stuff really belonged to God, or whatever that rationalization was.
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Galen
When PFAL was handed to a TC for the purpose of running a class no documents were ever signed. No 'agreement' was negotiated. You were given the class to run it. Nothing else was considered.
The only 'briefing' that I ever got when doing PFAL classes for TWI, was that sometimes I would have to get a segment from another TC, and when done I had to pass it off to a third TC. Because there were so many classes running at the same time. that was the only form of briefing, or conditions put on handling the class.
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HAPe4me
I agree, ordinarily the class (film or audio) set were given for a specific duration. (to be returned at the end of the class). I ran enough of those things to remember that, although I don't recall signing anything to that effect, I think it was a page in the instructor's manual maybe????). I vaguely recall it was in some written format. I always dutifully returned the materials.
The set I was speaking of was in another category, and was not part of the normal PFAL system. What I am saying is that they were not ALWAYS given for a specific duration. This set was simply given for my friend's use, by the President and Founder
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HAPe4me
Oh yeah Galen, now that you mention it, sets did get shuffled that way, although mostly it was one set being shared by two or more classes I think in my experience. I also agree nothing was ever signed by me, (in my areas), and I did not "check them out" with library system cards or any negotiation.
Darn, no bids yet on it?
oooh, there is a Tower of Power album listed, with Skip Mesquite and Dave Garibaldi!
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