And got something telling me the web site something.... But not the site
Doesn't anyone read the thread? John screwed up in his posting of the URL, and I re-did it, so folks could get to his site, and get registered in this web-cam thing. Seems like one person ONLY took the time to click on what I posted, and got right through. John might be a competent counselor, but (imo) he has some serious LACK of social skills when it comes to thanking someone (anyone) who fixes a link for him to recoup his investment of $700.00 to do this seminar, since he was online here AFTER I did that for him.
it took me a few days to know how i felt about this advertisement for "help", and i didn't really figure it out until i read what groucho said, so now i know that what i feel about this is that i felt like if i did'nt do it then would i be like not supporting this site as good as i could and why do i expect not to have to pay for this site anyway because don't i pay for therapy? i feel that therapy that works is a a trust thing and this site being anonymous and not in any attribute a professional place when it comes to "help", but the technical stuff is professional in the way it looks and works, but anybody can get a site like this and the techical stuff like comes along with the total package of stuff that comes with the site, and so i looked up what it would cost to have a site like this and it is not very much really, but then i thought about the hours of work it takes to keep people from ripping each other's heads off, but then i thought that's a social thing not really a technical thing. and what has what this site does have anything to do with what mr. knapp does anyway, so i thought about that for awhile and figured out that mr. knapp is a professional with all the proper licensing and stuff that makes the difference between professional therapy and self-help, which the way was a self-help group, so i saw the difference very clearly, so i wondered what is a professional doing on a self-help site? that's where i felt funny about it all because no professional i've ever known would feel right about doing something so anonymous and calculated to be as impersonal as possible because that doesn't really help anything or anybody because help starts with trust and there's nothing to trust about how this is going to happen, at least the way i feel like it is going to happen, so unless i don't understand the whole thing then i feel like this is more like going on judge judy for legal "help" because that's all for show and money and has no real legality to it except for the contract that you have to sign giving it legality but then the real courts don't have to recognize the legality of it.
Should the goal of GSC (or any 'help site' that tells deals with a cult's activities") be to outlive it's usefulness?
In other words, should the evidence of the success of a site like this be that it is no longer needed? Or will the focus shift from help to social interaction?
As far as the seminar goes, I'm still dealing with my knee-jerk reaction. TWI was infamous for offering one-more-advance/class/tape/teaching-that-would-change-your-life. I wonder if offering a class *here* is like someone putting a bottle of whiskey in front of an alchoholic. I was in the middle of a bunch of Momentus grads all hawking that weekend class as the answer to my life. I just scratched my head and wondered why ONE class had all the answers AGAIN.
NOW - that does not mean that the seminar won't be helpful, nor does it mean that there are bad intentions afoot. It only means that I have a large skeptic living inside me.
I hope people those that take the seminar find the help they need and can view it as part of the recovery process.
I have to get in line now. The Queen needs food and the drones are about to head out. If only we could find a way out of this narrow space...
From my perspective, clinical psychology does offer genuine help in recovery from groups like TWI. Whether it is identifying characteristics of groups that commonly cause psychological trauma, identifying external resources for additional help, or mental and emotional viewpoints or exercises that help people move on, all can potentially have a benefit. It may not be necessary that the individual has specific TWI experience. For example, the book "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" is a book written by a couple of people involved in starting and running a small community church. Yet parallels abound that specifically apply to TWI.
With respect to the profession and offering it here, I would suggest that John is only doing target marketing for his services. He is doing marketing here, and he is selling a service. On a forum that is more or less dedicated to recovery from and discussion of an abusive group I would suggest that it is nothing more or less than target marketing. He is making a step towards people on this forum in this fashion. Yes it is true he doesn't post here regularly, so his commitment level towards understanding TWI specifically and the details of it and recovery is unknown at this time. I'm sure as with any profession, the more detailed his understanding of TWI is the better the help will be.
I don't think target marketing should be understood as anything different than what it is - offering a service to a market segment. In this field, like in accident injury cases (someone mentioned ambulance chaser lawyers) the market segment is hurt or injured people. So only an individual's personal ethics can determine what genuinely is the difference between caring about people in detail in offering a service and being a businessman first who cares less. The end product, or "fruit" becomes evident with time.
If we as a community want to preseve this forum as more of a pure "self-help" type, we could request to Paw that it be advertisement free, or construct another forum subsection that is dedicated to that type of thing. Until then I would suggest just viewing this thread as an advertisement thread that may or may not pertain to individuals.
As you'll have read, there is no small suspicion among ex-Way people. We got sucked (suckered?) into a class that didn't cost much, and have ended up with all sorts of problems.
Doojable makes the point about "one more wonder class."
I believe you do want to try and help people; you know what cult indoctrination can do!
Certainly if there are (reasonable) expenses in putting something on, there should be recoupment of the expenses. But - advertising? (posts at GSC don't cost.)
I also appreciate that preparation takes time and that takes away from earning capacity. Paw, I know, manages this site in his spare (spare? ha!) time and if that were worked out at an hourly rate would probably be about half a cent a week and who could begrudge a little income there?
As a professional, I charge for my professional advice.
As a Christian, as a friend, as a listening ear, as a person showing compassion - I find I put my hand in my pocket, not my hand in the other person's pocket.
And somewhere in between is "mate's rates." Which is still a professional thing.
Paw, you probably won't like what I'm about to say, but I feel the need to say it. I think your intentions are good and probably John's are, too. But I'm a little concerned about this Webinar thing.
I get the impression that people who have talked on here about the benefits they've received from therapy participated in one-on-one therapy. I believe that for those who need help regaining their confidence and/or their bearings, that can be a good way to go.
What concerns me about an "anti-cult" Webinar, with no face-to-face contact, involving a group as large as 85 people, is two things: First, some people probably need intensive, individualized therapy with a good psychologist or psychiatrist. Second, anything short of that could quite easily feed a vulnerable person's tendency to simply exhange one brand of indoctrination for another, one set of authority figures for another.
It's Pawtucket's site, and he can allow what he wants to allow. If he wants GSC to be one of several ex-cult groups used to advertise the services of a therapist and a "cult recovery specialtist," that's his choice and his privilege. Frankly, I don't know why a trained, licensed therapist has to drum up business that way, instead of the usual advertising, referrals, and word-of-mouth. Maybe it's because it's more of a cause than a business venture. The fact that one of the presenters is a "cult recovery specialist" tells me it's a cause, a crusade. I was wary of those before twi, and now I'm even more wary.
$25 isn't much money, and I have no beef with anyone offsetting the costs of putting on a Webinar and making a few bucks. All I know is that when the companies I deal with put on Webinars, it's for one purpose and one purpose only: to drum up business; or in this case, maybe to drum up more adherents to the cause.
And to those participating in this Webinar, please remember that just as something wasn't true just because a twi hot shot said it, nothing is true just because any other "expert" says it, either. If this thing appeals to you, then get whatever benefit you can out of it, but don't forget to buckle on those thinking (for yourself) caps. :)
The quote below is from the third article, about the surge in "cult experts" coming forward after the Heaven's Gate suicides (my emphasis added):
"Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman, authors of Snapping: America's Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change, were interviewed by everyone from Reuters to *Rivera*, despite the fact that, by their own admission, they had no idea what this Heaven's Gate group was. Their expertise lay not in knowledge about this cult, but in their theory of how cultic "mind control" works. This theory, a variation on the long-discredited notion that cult members are incapable of free choice, did not add much to anyone's understanding of the tragedy."
Bingo! One-size-fits-all solutions. Fool me once....
What concerns me about an "anti-cult" Webinar, with no face-to-face contact, involving a group as large as 85 people, is two things: First, some people probably need intensive, individualized therapy with a good psychologist or psychiatrist. Second, anything short of that could quite easily feed a vulnerable person's tendency to simply exhange one brand of indoctrination for another, one set of authority figures for another.
Some good points Linda...I am certainly in favor of seeing people recover fully from their cult experience but who gets to define what "recovery" is? I probably shouldn't say this because I don't want to slight the good folks who are having problems dealing with their "cult recovery"...but when I left twi in 1987, it took me about 10 minutes to "get over it". I never really let them get past a certain point with me...I just moved on.
What's the difference between John Lynn and John Knapp? One makes a living out of filling your head with baloney and the other makes a living out of emptying your head of the baloney. If you need your head emptied of baloney, pay the $25 and help yourself out...as for me, I'm just fine... :)
the only "help" i get from being here is from being able to discuss things without explaining everything, but that isn't always true because without face to face it is sometimes hard to get the meaning of what i write or other people write, and then i get some "help" from reading how others have handled things they're going through. other than that i have learned that just because somebody had a root canal that doesn't make them a dentist, and just because someone went to school to be a dentist and are now a dentist that doesn't mean that their root canal makes them a "universal" dental "expert".
the worse thing about this all being about cults is that a cult is a mind hump and any "expert" that is not a cult virgin will never be unhumped. i spent a few years seeing only therapists that had experienced abuse and i found out that too often their own issues got in the way of my healing, so i tried a therapist that had had no abuse issues and had lived a realitively easy life and he or she turned out to be the person that helped me to see that there is an alternative way of thinking and living that is not abuse oriented. he or she has been the only person in my life that has ever helped me with my hypervigilance and my inability to accept good things in my life because he or she didn't approach me with an explanation but with an alternative way of thinking and living, and for the first time in my life the other day i got a nice compliment and didn't first duck my head and wonder what the person was looking at and why me, but i smiled and said thank you and it didn't occur to me until a couple of hours later that it had all happened without the abuse thinking.
for the first time in my life the other day i got a nice compliment and didn't first duck my head and wonder what the person was looking at and why me, but i smiled and said thank you and it didn't occur to me until a couple of hours later that it had all happened without the abuse thinking.
...really made me smile. That's terrific.
Waysider:
I have thought about it. I'm quite sure an ex-Scientologist could help an exwayfer and vice versa; the method of helping is what I question. I don't think the "mind control" explanation for everything that ever happened to anyone in a controlling religious group or a non-mainstream church or Amway or anything else is a valid one. I think indoctrination is a more accurate description than mind control. How people choose to "un-indocrinate" themselves and how far is a personal choice.
IMO, to blame mind control for the choices we made prevents us from ever honestly examining our own role in some of the paths we took and keeps us from looking at why we made those decisions.
Edited to add: I don't mean to say that every bad thing that happened to anyone in twi was because of their own decisions. Not at all. But learning where our vulnerabilties are/were (our own individual frailties...not some cookie-cutter image of a "cult victim") can go a long way in preventing us from being taken advantage of or made to feel like pond scum ever again.
IMO, to blame mind control for the choices we made prevents us from ever honestly examining our own role in some of the paths we took and keeps us from looking at why we made those decisions.
Doesn't anyone read the thread? John screwed up in his posting of the URL, and I re-did it, so folks could get to his site, and get registered in this web-cam thing. Seems like one person ONLY took the time to click on what I posted, and got right through. John might be a competent counselor, but (imo) he has some serious LACK of social skills when it comes to thanking someone (anyone) who fixes a link for him to recoup his investment of $700.00 to do this seminar, since he was online here AFTER I did that for him.
Dot -- I re-did that link so you could get into it, with no problems. Did you click on it?? I guess not, eh? Potato did.
No matter. If he makes a living counseling on the web, he should try to get (at least) his links right.
And --- have a bit of common courtesy when it comes to re-couping his "investment". He can do neither.
Have fun, who ever decides to join this "conference".
Hi, dmiller,
My apologies. I must have scanned the posts too quickly and missed your post with the fixed links. Of course, I thank you for correcting my error!
From my perspective, clinical psychology does offer genuine help in recovery from groups like TWI. Whether it is identifying characteristics of groups that commonly cause psychological trauma, identifying external resources for additional help, or mental and emotional viewpoints or exercises that help people move on, all can potentially have a benefit. It may not be necessary that the individual has specific TWI experience. For example, the book "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" is a book written by a couple of people involved in starting and running a small community church. Yet parallels abound that specifically apply to TWI.
With respect to the profession and offering it here, I would suggest that John is only doing target marketing for his services. He is doing marketing here, and he is selling a service. On a forum that is more or less dedicated to recovery from and discussion of an abusive group I would suggest that it is nothing more or less than target marketing. He is making a step towards people on this forum in this fashion. Yes it is true he doesn't post here regularly, so his commitment level towards understanding TWI specifically and the details of it and recovery is unknown at this time. I'm sure as with any profession, the more detailed his understanding of TWI is the better the help will be.
I don't think target marketing should be understood as anything different than what it is - offering a service to a market segment. In this field, like in accident injury cases (someone mentioned ambulance chaser lawyers) the market segment is hurt or injured people. So only an individual's personal ethics can determine what genuinely is the difference between caring about people in detail in offering a service and being a businessman first who cares less. The end product, or "fruit" becomes evident with time.
If we as a community want to preseve this forum as more of a pure "self-help" type, we could request to Paw that it be advertisement free, or construct another forum subsection that is dedicated to that type of thing. Until then I would suggest just viewing this thread as an advertisement thread that may or may not pertain to individuals.
Hi, chockfull,
Thanks for your thoughts. I thought you might like to know that I stopped marketing on forums some months ago. I took people's input to heart. I posted this notice here only after asking Pawtucket for approval. Why did I make an exception in posting this here? Only because of Pawtucket's involvement. I thought some forum members would find it interesting for that reason.
While many therapists advertise, both in print and in google search, I've taken to heart the input of members of several self-help forums. I didn't foresee the sensitivity of forum members to my posts. For this I apologize.
It's important to me that forum members see this as my mistake. It certainly was not Pawtucket's mistake!
As you'll have read, there is no small suspicion among ex-Way people. We got sucked (suckered?) into a class that didn't cost much, and have ended up with all sorts of problems.
Doojable makes the point about "one more wonder class."
I believe you do want to try and help people; you know what cult indoctrination can do!
Certainly if there are (reasonable) expenses in putting something on, there should be recoupment of the expenses. But - advertising? (posts at GSC don't cost.)
I also appreciate that preparation takes time and that takes away from earning capacity. Paw, I know, manages this site in his spare (spare? ha!) time and if that were worked out at an hourly rate would probably be about half a cent a week and who could begrudge a little income there?
As a professional, I charge for my professional advice.
As a Christian, as a friend, as a listening ear, as a person showing compassion - I find I put my hand in my pocket, not my hand in the other person's pocket.
And somewhere in between is "mate's rates." Which is still a professional thing.
Hi, Twinky,
Thanks for voicing your concerns.
The advertising costs I mention are not for GSC. I am paying for Google search ads, as well as Yahoo. GSC was the only forum I posted my notice because of Pawtucket's involvement. I thought it would prove of interest to some people here. I didn't foresee the reaction it might cause, as I had posted here in the past to generally positive responses.
The last thing in the world I want to do is cause pain for anyone here. I'm in this profession, which does not pay well, because of my own heart's passion. I was a member in my own cult for 23 years. I worked as an unpaid lay counselor for many years. (Some here may remember Trancechat, trancenet.net, and specifically, No Way Out.)
A large part of my work remains free. I have megabytes of self-help information at my web site, and I still do informal counseling for many, many emailers. Even in this endeavor, I have set aside 15% of the possible seats for scholarships for people who simply cannot afford even $25.
I understand caution or even suspicion. I've been there! It is in many ways a sign of health, after the kind of involvement most of us experienced in our respective groups.
As best I can, I am trying to answer people's concerns here without feeding into more suspicion. I'm finding it a pretty difficult tightrope to walk!
By the way, it was never my intention to claim this is a "wonder course." It's simply a seminar on some problems that some people experience. While there will be techniques and information that will be useful for recovery and ample opportunity for questions and answers, to my knowledge there is no "miracle cure" for the challenges that many of us recovering from cultic abuse share. But there are many techniques that people have found useful.
There is no single "cure" for our problems. Recovery, for those that have experienced significant trauma, takes real work. It doesn't necessarily include working with a therapist. As I wrote above, I think most people recover without help or some self-help on sites like this.
But some people do seek more, whether they are seeking a faster recovery or have tried self-help and found it wasn't enough for them. I really only wanted to attract the interest of these people.
I've done my best not to proselytize, but simply offer an option that some people may take advantage of, even if most others do not.
I would like to salvage my sincere offer of help -- only to those that are interested. If any member here could suggest something I could share that would smooth the waters, I would certainly take that suggestion to heart.
The quote below is from the third article, about the surge in "cult experts" coming forward after the Heaven's Gate suicides (my emphasis added):
"Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman, authors of Snapping: America's Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change, were interviewed by everyone from Reuters to *Rivera*, despite the fact that, by their own admission, they had no idea what this Heaven's Gate group was. Their expertise lay not in knowledge about this cult, but in their theory of how cultic "mind control" works. This theory, a variation on the long-discredited notion that cult members are incapable of free choice, did not add much to anyone's understanding of the tragedy."
Bingo! One-size-fits-all solutions. Fool me once....
Hi, Linda Z,
Thanks for doing the research and raising your concerns.
The reason we have 3 panelists for the web seminar, and not 1, is because there are many approaches to cult recovery. In my mind, there are strengths and weaknesses to all the approaches.
As to Conway and Siegelman, they are not involved in the seminar. Nor is their thinking reflected in the presentation.
For myself, I have never subscribed to the idea that cult members are incapable of free choice. For that matter, I do not subscribe to the idea of cult "brainwashing" -- although many in my field do.
It would be a mistake to assume that everyone who works in this field has the same viewpoints. As best I can, I reveal my philosophy, methods, charges, and more at my web site.
It is true that this is a cause for me. But that is certainly not unusual in the psychotherapeutic field. Most counselors you will work with will have been touched by mental illness in their circle of family and friends. Similarly, most substance abuse counselors are themselves in recovery, and many rape or DV counselors have personal experience as well.
Just as when I founded Trancechat, trancenet.net, and No Way Out, my focus is on helping others who have been traumatized as I have been. It's my attempt to turn a very bad thing into a good thing. It is still true that much of my work is available for free on my web sites or via informal counseling over the phone or in email.
But I turned "pro" so that I could devote even more time to helping others. Not to proselytize them into adopting a new cause. I've been working in this field for pushing 15 years and have never had "followers" or started an organization. I imagine if I had thought that was appropriate, I could have started an organization a number of times. But I, too, am concerned that vulnerable people could easily be sucked into another "save the world" movement. Fearing the negative impact of that on the people I work with, I chose not to go down that route. I think I've made the right choice.
I don't know if I answered your concerns. But if you have more thoughts or questions, I'd be happy to try and answer them.
Paw, you probably won't like what I'm about to say, but I feel the need to say it. I think your intentions are good and probably John's are, too. But I'm a little concerned about this Webinar thing.
I get the impression that people who have talked on here about the benefits they've received from therapy participated in one-on-one therapy. I believe that for those who need help regaining their confidence and/or their bearings, that can be a good way to go.
What concerns me about an "anti-cult" Webinar, with no face-to-face contact, involving a group as large as 85 people, is two things: First, some people probably need intensive, individualized therapy with a good psychologist or psychiatrist. Second, anything short of that could quite easily feed a vulnerable person's tendency to simply exhange one brand of indoctrination for another, one set of authority figures for another.
It's Pawtucket's site, and he can allow what he wants to allow. If he wants GSC to be one of several ex-cult groups used to advertise the services of a therapist and a "cult recovery specialtist," that's his choice and his privilege. Frankly, I don't know why a trained, licensed therapist has to drum up business that way, instead of the usual advertising, referrals, and word-of-mouth. Maybe it's because it's more of a cause than a business venture. The fact that one of the presenters is a "cult recovery specialist" tells me it's a cause, a crusade. I was wary of those before twi, and now I'm even more wary.
$25 isn't much money, and I have no beef with anyone offsetting the costs of putting on a Webinar and making a few bucks. All I know is that when the companies I deal with put on Webinars, it's for one purpose and one purpose only: to drum up business; or in this case, maybe to drum up more adherents to the cause.
And to those participating in this Webinar, please remember that just as something wasn't true just because a twi hot shot said it, nothing is true just because any other "expert" says it, either. If this thing appeals to you, then get whatever benefit you can out of it, but don't forget to buckle on those thinking (for yourself) caps. :)
Hi, Linda,
There are a variety of therapy modalities, including individual, group, and family therapy. Different people find different modalities useful. There are advantages to each.
This seminar will not be therapy. It's more informative and exploratory. We panelists will each present our information and experience and take questions and input from the attendees. It's much like going to a seminar on substance abuse. You wouldn't expect to receive therapy going to a conference or seminar. This is similar. The only real difference is the use of the Internet for our presentation. I believe that this is valuable because so many people who seek help in cult recovery do not have someone with experience within driving distance. And in these economic times, the idea of creating a conference that people must travel to seems like a nonstarter.
Critical thinking is an important part of cult recovery. Both in my private practice and in the upcoming web seminar, I will take pains to say that you are the experts about you. It is possible in hearing a variety of techniques that have worked for others you may find things that you'd like to try in your life as well. It's not the case that we will be pushing a one-size-fits-all program. In fact, it's probably good for you to know that we 3 panelists each have different approaches to our work. It could be attendees will learn the most from us disagreeing! Discussion is always good!
As to "drumming up business," my clients usually come from areas in which there is no local counselor available with experience in cults. A fair number of my clients are referred by others, but some people simply have no idea where to turn if they seek help. It is hard to reach these people.
I have no interest in forcing any form of counseling or education down anyone's throat. Some people are interested in this kind of work, many are not. Everyone has to find their own answers. But being exposed to a variety of viewpoints can really speed that process for some people.
Seminars like this are certainly not rare on a variety of issues. They are not intended to be therapy. But many find value in them. To my knowledge, this is the first web seminar on this particular topic, but I believe there is a future in using web technology in reaching a wider audience -- one that cannot afford to travel to a traditional, hotel-based conference.
I don't know if I answered everything you raised, Linda Z, but if you have additional questions or concerns, I'll try to answer them.
I have thought about it. I'm quite sure an ex-Scientologist could help an exwayfer and vice versa; the method of helping is what I question. I don't think the "mind control" explanation for everything that ever happened to anyone in a controlling religious group or a non-mainstream church or Amway or anything else is a valid one. I think indoctrination is a more accurate description than mind control. How people choose to "un-indocrinate" themselves and how far is a personal choice.
IMO, to blame mind control for the choices we made prevents us from ever honestly examining our own role in some of the paths we took and keeps us from looking at why we made those decisions.
Edited to add: I don't mean to say that every bad thing that happened to anyone in twi was because of their own decisions. Not at all. But learning where our vulnerabilties are/were (our own individual frailties...not some cookie-cutter image of a "cult victim") can go a long way in preventing us from being taken advantage of or made to feel like pond scum ever again.
Hi, Linda Z,
I don't know if this is true or not, but it seems as if you are assuming things about how I practice and what I believe. I do not use the "mind control model" in my work. Nor do I have a cookie-cutter approach to recovery. Every person I work with finds their own route to recovery. That in itself is an important recovery process. It would be a mistake to replace one system with another, no matter how well intentioned.
If I can help by saying more about my views on "mind control" or whatever, I'd be happy to discuss this.
As to Conway and Siegelman, they are not involved in the seminar. Nor is their thinking reflected in the presentation.
I probably wasn't clear about why I included that quote. The reason I did was because you have a “cult recovery expert” on your panel, and it seems to me that they tend to see brainwashing behind every bush (sorta like twi saw a devil spirit under every rock).
For myself, I have never subscribed to the idea that cult members are incapable of free choice. For that matter, I do not subscribe to the idea of cult "brainwashing" -- although many in my field do.
I didn’t mean to imply or assume that you’re one of the “mind control” proponents. It appears, however, that your third panelist is.
I hope you don't think we're trying to give you a hard time. I was concerned so I felt the need to say so. I'm sure you understand that many of us spent too many years keeping quiet when we had questions and doubts. Maybe that's why we so readily voice them today. :)
I hope people get a lot out of your Webinar if they choose to participate. I also hope you'll keep a leash on that "cult recovery expert."
Thanks for your thoughts. I thought you might like to know that I stopped marketing on forums some months ago. I took people's input to heart. I posted this notice here only after asking Pawtucket for approval. Why did I make an exception in posting this here? Only because of Pawtucket's involvement. I thought some forum members would find it interesting for that reason.
While many therapists advertise, both in print and in google search, I've taken to heart the input of members of several self-help forums. I didn't foresee the sensitivity of forum members to my posts. For this I apologize.
It's important to me that forum members see this as my mistake. It certainly was not Pawtucket's mistake!
J.
Hi John,
Thanks for your thoughts and explanations. I do think it would be beneficial to many on this thread if you posted a little regarding your approach, or even if you post hyperlinks to your own website where you explain your approach. It's good to get to know a little of your background, experience and work. That type of thing goes a long way to alleviate concerns.
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Tzaia
John - FWIW, I think you have done a fine job.
dmiller
Doesn't anyone read the thread? John screwed up in his posting of the URL, and I re-did it, so folks could get to his site, and get registered in this web-cam thing. Seems like one person ONLY took the time to click on what I posted, and got right through. John might be a competent counselor, but (imo) he has some serious LACK of social skills when it comes to thanking someone (anyone) who fixes a link for him to recoup his investment of $700.00 to do this seminar, since he was online here AFTER I did that for him.
Dot -- I re-did that link so you could get into it, with no problems. Did you click on it?? I guess not, eh? Potato did.
No matter. If he makes a living counseling on the web, he should try to get (at least) his links right.
And --- have a bit of common courtesy when it comes to re-couping his "investment". He can do neither.
Have fun, who ever decides to join this "conference".
Edited by dmillerLink to comment
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RumRunner
And God looked upon the humans and said - heck - the ant farm was more interesting and cheaper to boot
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dmiller
Dammn right!
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Dot Matrix
Dmiller
I did read it, I did see that. He asked me what link I tried and I responded to HIM notice JOHN:
Thanks for then giving me the link, however
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Dot Matrix
Groucho you made some good points
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brainfixed
it took me a few days to know how i felt about this advertisement for "help", and i didn't really figure it out until i read what groucho said, so now i know that what i feel about this is that i felt like if i did'nt do it then would i be like not supporting this site as good as i could and why do i expect not to have to pay for this site anyway because don't i pay for therapy? i feel that therapy that works is a a trust thing and this site being anonymous and not in any attribute a professional place when it comes to "help", but the technical stuff is professional in the way it looks and works, but anybody can get a site like this and the techical stuff like comes along with the total package of stuff that comes with the site, and so i looked up what it would cost to have a site like this and it is not very much really, but then i thought about the hours of work it takes to keep people from ripping each other's heads off, but then i thought that's a social thing not really a technical thing. and what has what this site does have anything to do with what mr. knapp does anyway, so i thought about that for awhile and figured out that mr. knapp is a professional with all the proper licensing and stuff that makes the difference between professional therapy and self-help, which the way was a self-help group, so i saw the difference very clearly, so i wondered what is a professional doing on a self-help site? that's where i felt funny about it all because no professional i've ever known would feel right about doing something so anonymous and calculated to be as impersonal as possible because that doesn't really help anything or anybody because help starts with trust and there's nothing to trust about how this is going to happen, at least the way i feel like it is going to happen, so unless i don't understand the whole thing then i feel like this is more like going on judge judy for legal "help" because that's all for show and money and has no real legality to it except for the contract that you have to sign giving it legality but then the real courts don't have to recognize the legality of it.
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doojable
I'm wondering...
Should the goal of GSC (or any 'help site' that tells deals with a cult's activities") be to outlive it's usefulness?
In other words, should the evidence of the success of a site like this be that it is no longer needed? Or will the focus shift from help to social interaction?
As far as the seminar goes, I'm still dealing with my knee-jerk reaction. TWI was infamous for offering one-more-advance/class/tape/teaching-that-would-change-your-life. I wonder if offering a class *here* is like someone putting a bottle of whiskey in front of an alchoholic. I was in the middle of a bunch of Momentus grads all hawking that weekend class as the answer to my life. I just scratched my head and wondered why ONE class had all the answers AGAIN.
NOW - that does not mean that the seminar won't be helpful, nor does it mean that there are bad intentions afoot. It only means that I have a large skeptic living inside me.
I hope people those that take the seminar find the help they need and can view it as part of the recovery process.
I have to get in line now. The Queen needs food and the drones are about to head out. If only we could find a way out of this narrow space...
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chockfull
From my perspective, clinical psychology does offer genuine help in recovery from groups like TWI. Whether it is identifying characteristics of groups that commonly cause psychological trauma, identifying external resources for additional help, or mental and emotional viewpoints or exercises that help people move on, all can potentially have a benefit. It may not be necessary that the individual has specific TWI experience. For example, the book "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" is a book written by a couple of people involved in starting and running a small community church. Yet parallels abound that specifically apply to TWI.
With respect to the profession and offering it here, I would suggest that John is only doing target marketing for his services. He is doing marketing here, and he is selling a service. On a forum that is more or less dedicated to recovery from and discussion of an abusive group I would suggest that it is nothing more or less than target marketing. He is making a step towards people on this forum in this fashion. Yes it is true he doesn't post here regularly, so his commitment level towards understanding TWI specifically and the details of it and recovery is unknown at this time. I'm sure as with any profession, the more detailed his understanding of TWI is the better the help will be.
I don't think target marketing should be understood as anything different than what it is - offering a service to a market segment. In this field, like in accident injury cases (someone mentioned ambulance chaser lawyers) the market segment is hurt or injured people. So only an individual's personal ethics can determine what genuinely is the difference between caring about people in detail in offering a service and being a businessman first who cares less. The end product, or "fruit" becomes evident with time.
If we as a community want to preseve this forum as more of a pure "self-help" type, we could request to Paw that it be advertisement free, or construct another forum subsection that is dedicated to that type of thing. Until then I would suggest just viewing this thread as an advertisement thread that may or may not pertain to individuals.
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Twinky
Thank you, John.
As you'll have read, there is no small suspicion among ex-Way people. We got sucked (suckered?) into a class that didn't cost much, and have ended up with all sorts of problems.
Doojable makes the point about "one more wonder class."
I believe you do want to try and help people; you know what cult indoctrination can do!
Certainly if there are (reasonable) expenses in putting something on, there should be recoupment of the expenses. But - advertising? (posts at GSC don't cost.)
I also appreciate that preparation takes time and that takes away from earning capacity. Paw, I know, manages this site in his spare (spare? ha!) time and if that were worked out at an hourly rate would probably be about half a cent a week and who could begrudge a little income there?
As a professional, I charge for my professional advice.
As a Christian, as a friend, as a listening ear, as a person showing compassion - I find I put my hand in my pocket, not my hand in the other person's pocket.
And somewhere in between is "mate's rates." Which is still a professional thing.
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Linda Z
Paw, you probably won't like what I'm about to say, but I feel the need to say it. I think your intentions are good and probably John's are, too. But I'm a little concerned about this Webinar thing.
I get the impression that people who have talked on here about the benefits they've received from therapy participated in one-on-one therapy. I believe that for those who need help regaining their confidence and/or their bearings, that can be a good way to go.
What concerns me about an "anti-cult" Webinar, with no face-to-face contact, involving a group as large as 85 people, is two things: First, some people probably need intensive, individualized therapy with a good psychologist or psychiatrist. Second, anything short of that could quite easily feed a vulnerable person's tendency to simply exhange one brand of indoctrination for another, one set of authority figures for another.
It's Pawtucket's site, and he can allow what he wants to allow. If he wants GSC to be one of several ex-cult groups used to advertise the services of a therapist and a "cult recovery specialtist," that's his choice and his privilege. Frankly, I don't know why a trained, licensed therapist has to drum up business that way, instead of the usual advertising, referrals, and word-of-mouth. Maybe it's because it's more of a cause than a business venture. The fact that one of the presenters is a "cult recovery specialist" tells me it's a cause, a crusade. I was wary of those before twi, and now I'm even more wary.
$25 isn't much money, and I have no beef with anyone offsetting the costs of putting on a Webinar and making a few bucks. All I know is that when the companies I deal with put on Webinars, it's for one purpose and one purpose only: to drum up business; or in this case, maybe to drum up more adherents to the cause.
And to those participating in this Webinar, please remember that just as something wasn't true just because a twi hot shot said it, nothing is true just because any other "expert" says it, either. If this thing appeals to you, then get whatever benefit you can out of it, but don't forget to buckle on those thinking (for yourself) caps. :)
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Linda Z
Maybe I was too nice.
I did a little Googling after I made my earlier post.
Here are some links to articles about "cult recovery specialist" Joe Szhimhart.
http://info_3.tripod.com/cultaware_unzipped/cases2.html
http://www.cesnur.org/2001/CAN/appendix_A.htm
http://www.reason.com/news/show/34495.html
The quote below is from the third article, about the surge in "cult experts" coming forward after the Heaven's Gate suicides (my emphasis added):
"Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman, authors of Snapping: America's Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change, were interviewed by everyone from Reuters to *Rivera*, despite the fact that, by their own admission, they had no idea what this Heaven's Gate group was. Their expertise lay not in knowledge about this cult, but in their theory of how cultic "mind control" works. This theory, a variation on the long-discredited notion that cult members are incapable of free choice, did not add much to anyone's understanding of the tragedy."
Bingo! One-size-fits-all solutions. Fool me once....
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GrouchoMarxJr
Some good points Linda...I am certainly in favor of seeing people recover fully from their cult experience but who gets to define what "recovery" is? I probably shouldn't say this because I don't want to slight the good folks who are having problems dealing with their "cult recovery"...but when I left twi in 1987, it took me about 10 minutes to "get over it". I never really let them get past a certain point with me...I just moved on.
What's the difference between John Lynn and John Knapp? One makes a living out of filling your head with baloney and the other makes a living out of emptying your head of the baloney. If you need your head emptied of baloney, pay the $25 and help yourself out...as for me, I'm just fine... :)
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waysider
Tossing this in for consideration.
John, too, is a veteran of the cult scene, having been an active participant of TM.
Does that make a difference?
I don't know.
Something to think about, though.
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brainfixed
the only "help" i get from being here is from being able to discuss things without explaining everything, but that isn't always true because without face to face it is sometimes hard to get the meaning of what i write or other people write, and then i get some "help" from reading how others have handled things they're going through. other than that i have learned that just because somebody had a root canal that doesn't make them a dentist, and just because someone went to school to be a dentist and are now a dentist that doesn't mean that their root canal makes them a "universal" dental "expert".
the worse thing about this all being about cults is that a cult is a mind hump and any "expert" that is not a cult virgin will never be unhumped. i spent a few years seeing only therapists that had experienced abuse and i found out that too often their own issues got in the way of my healing, so i tried a therapist that had had no abuse issues and had lived a realitively easy life and he or she turned out to be the person that helped me to see that there is an alternative way of thinking and living that is not abuse oriented. he or she has been the only person in my life that has ever helped me with my hypervigilance and my inability to accept good things in my life because he or she didn't approach me with an explanation but with an alternative way of thinking and living, and for the first time in my life the other day i got a nice compliment and didn't first duck my head and wonder what the person was looking at and why me, but i smiled and said thank you and it didn't occur to me until a couple of hours later that it had all happened without the abuse thinking.
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Linda Z
brainfixed, what you said here:
...really made me smile. That's terrific.
Waysider:
I have thought about it. I'm quite sure an ex-Scientologist could help an exwayfer and vice versa; the method of helping is what I question. I don't think the "mind control" explanation for everything that ever happened to anyone in a controlling religious group or a non-mainstream church or Amway or anything else is a valid one. I think indoctrination is a more accurate description than mind control. How people choose to "un-indocrinate" themselves and how far is a personal choice.
IMO, to blame mind control for the choices we made prevents us from ever honestly examining our own role in some of the paths we took and keeps us from looking at why we made those decisions.
Edited to add: I don't mean to say that every bad thing that happened to anyone in twi was because of their own decisions. Not at all. But learning where our vulnerabilties are/were (our own individual frailties...not some cookie-cutter image of a "cult victim") can go a long way in preventing us from being taken advantage of or made to feel like pond scum ever again.
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Tzaia
Thank you, thank you, thank you for saying that.
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John M Knapp LMSW
Hi, dmiller,
My apologies. I must have scanned the posts too quickly and missed your post with the fixed links. Of course, I thank you for correcting my error!
J.
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John M Knapp LMSW
Hi, chockfull,
Thanks for your thoughts. I thought you might like to know that I stopped marketing on forums some months ago. I took people's input to heart. I posted this notice here only after asking Pawtucket for approval. Why did I make an exception in posting this here? Only because of Pawtucket's involvement. I thought some forum members would find it interesting for that reason.
While many therapists advertise, both in print and in google search, I've taken to heart the input of members of several self-help forums. I didn't foresee the sensitivity of forum members to my posts. For this I apologize.
It's important to me that forum members see this as my mistake. It certainly was not Pawtucket's mistake!
J.
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John M Knapp LMSW
Hi, Twinky,
Thanks for voicing your concerns.
The advertising costs I mention are not for GSC. I am paying for Google search ads, as well as Yahoo. GSC was the only forum I posted my notice because of Pawtucket's involvement. I thought it would prove of interest to some people here. I didn't foresee the reaction it might cause, as I had posted here in the past to generally positive responses.
The last thing in the world I want to do is cause pain for anyone here. I'm in this profession, which does not pay well, because of my own heart's passion. I was a member in my own cult for 23 years. I worked as an unpaid lay counselor for many years. (Some here may remember Trancechat, trancenet.net, and specifically, No Way Out.)
A large part of my work remains free. I have megabytes of self-help information at my web site, and I still do informal counseling for many, many emailers. Even in this endeavor, I have set aside 15% of the possible seats for scholarships for people who simply cannot afford even $25.
I understand caution or even suspicion. I've been there! It is in many ways a sign of health, after the kind of involvement most of us experienced in our respective groups.
As best I can, I am trying to answer people's concerns here without feeding into more suspicion. I'm finding it a pretty difficult tightrope to walk!
By the way, it was never my intention to claim this is a "wonder course." It's simply a seminar on some problems that some people experience. While there will be techniques and information that will be useful for recovery and ample opportunity for questions and answers, to my knowledge there is no "miracle cure" for the challenges that many of us recovering from cultic abuse share. But there are many techniques that people have found useful.
There is no single "cure" for our problems. Recovery, for those that have experienced significant trauma, takes real work. It doesn't necessarily include working with a therapist. As I wrote above, I think most people recover without help or some self-help on sites like this.
But some people do seek more, whether they are seeking a faster recovery or have tried self-help and found it wasn't enough for them. I really only wanted to attract the interest of these people.
I've done my best not to proselytize, but simply offer an option that some people may take advantage of, even if most others do not.
I would like to salvage my sincere offer of help -- only to those that are interested. If any member here could suggest something I could share that would smooth the waters, I would certainly take that suggestion to heart.
J.
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John M Knapp LMSW
Hi, Linda Z,
Thanks for doing the research and raising your concerns.
The reason we have 3 panelists for the web seminar, and not 1, is because there are many approaches to cult recovery. In my mind, there are strengths and weaknesses to all the approaches.
As to Conway and Siegelman, they are not involved in the seminar. Nor is their thinking reflected in the presentation.
For myself, I have never subscribed to the idea that cult members are incapable of free choice. For that matter, I do not subscribe to the idea of cult "brainwashing" -- although many in my field do.
It would be a mistake to assume that everyone who works in this field has the same viewpoints. As best I can, I reveal my philosophy, methods, charges, and more at my web site.
It is true that this is a cause for me. But that is certainly not unusual in the psychotherapeutic field. Most counselors you will work with will have been touched by mental illness in their circle of family and friends. Similarly, most substance abuse counselors are themselves in recovery, and many rape or DV counselors have personal experience as well.
Just as when I founded Trancechat, trancenet.net, and No Way Out, my focus is on helping others who have been traumatized as I have been. It's my attempt to turn a very bad thing into a good thing. It is still true that much of my work is available for free on my web sites or via informal counseling over the phone or in email.
But I turned "pro" so that I could devote even more time to helping others. Not to proselytize them into adopting a new cause. I've been working in this field for pushing 15 years and have never had "followers" or started an organization. I imagine if I had thought that was appropriate, I could have started an organization a number of times. But I, too, am concerned that vulnerable people could easily be sucked into another "save the world" movement. Fearing the negative impact of that on the people I work with, I chose not to go down that route. I think I've made the right choice.
I don't know if I answered your concerns. But if you have more thoughts or questions, I'd be happy to try and answer them.
J.
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John M Knapp LMSW
Hi, Linda,
There are a variety of therapy modalities, including individual, group, and family therapy. Different people find different modalities useful. There are advantages to each.
This seminar will not be therapy. It's more informative and exploratory. We panelists will each present our information and experience and take questions and input from the attendees. It's much like going to a seminar on substance abuse. You wouldn't expect to receive therapy going to a conference or seminar. This is similar. The only real difference is the use of the Internet for our presentation. I believe that this is valuable because so many people who seek help in cult recovery do not have someone with experience within driving distance. And in these economic times, the idea of creating a conference that people must travel to seems like a nonstarter.
Critical thinking is an important part of cult recovery. Both in my private practice and in the upcoming web seminar, I will take pains to say that you are the experts about you. It is possible in hearing a variety of techniques that have worked for others you may find things that you'd like to try in your life as well. It's not the case that we will be pushing a one-size-fits-all program. In fact, it's probably good for you to know that we 3 panelists each have different approaches to our work. It could be attendees will learn the most from us disagreeing! Discussion is always good!
As to "drumming up business," my clients usually come from areas in which there is no local counselor available with experience in cults. A fair number of my clients are referred by others, but some people simply have no idea where to turn if they seek help. It is hard to reach these people.
I have no interest in forcing any form of counseling or education down anyone's throat. Some people are interested in this kind of work, many are not. Everyone has to find their own answers. But being exposed to a variety of viewpoints can really speed that process for some people.
Seminars like this are certainly not rare on a variety of issues. They are not intended to be therapy. But many find value in them. To my knowledge, this is the first web seminar on this particular topic, but I believe there is a future in using web technology in reaching a wider audience -- one that cannot afford to travel to a traditional, hotel-based conference.
I don't know if I answered everything you raised, Linda Z, but if you have additional questions or concerns, I'll try to answer them.
J.
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John M Knapp LMSW
Hi, Linda Z,
I don't know if this is true or not, but it seems as if you are assuming things about how I practice and what I believe. I do not use the "mind control model" in my work. Nor do I have a cookie-cutter approach to recovery. Every person I work with finds their own route to recovery. That in itself is an important recovery process. It would be a mistake to replace one system with another, no matter how well intentioned.
If I can help by saying more about my views on "mind control" or whatever, I'd be happy to discuss this.
J.
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Linda Z
John said:
I probably wasn't clear about why I included that quote. The reason I did was because you have a “cult recovery expert” on your panel, and it seems to me that they tend to see brainwashing behind every bush (sorta like twi saw a devil spirit under every rock).
I didn’t mean to imply or assume that you’re one of the “mind control” proponents. It appears, however, that your third panelist is.
I hope you don't think we're trying to give you a hard time. I was concerned so I felt the need to say so. I'm sure you understand that many of us spent too many years keeping quiet when we had questions and doubts. Maybe that's why we so readily voice them today. :)
I hope people get a lot out of your Webinar if they choose to participate. I also hope you'll keep a leash on that "cult recovery expert."
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chockfull
Hi John,
Thanks for your thoughts and explanations. I do think it would be beneficial to many on this thread if you posted a little regarding your approach, or even if you post hyperlinks to your own website where you explain your approach. It's good to get to know a little of your background, experience and work. That type of thing goes a long way to alleviate concerns.
chockfull
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