(re)(un)Covering the "authentic" you

[Bolshevik]

the way compartmentalized the self into body soul and spirit, and most religions do separate the self into these same basic compartments, and all this serves to do is to make a war inside people's heads because each part of such a self is so totally different from the other part that any unification into a whole is next to impossible, so the way came up with "renewed mind" to bring out the part they wanted for their organization. and this is what i meant when i first said something about stealing my soul, which is where this whole question came up if i understand it right. to me the "soul" is undefineable by anybody but our own selves for our own selves because whatever it is for anybody it is only for them to decide because the whole thing is about how you or i define ourselves. some people like to have an external model to define themselves, and they live their lives very happy thinking that there's a part of them that is "dead" and it's called the "body", and there's a part of them that is "quickened" and it's called the "spirit", and part of them is in limbo and it's called the "soul". for me that was just too crazy thinking and caused too many problems with my sanity, so i stuck with "soul" being just me, and the rest of the stuff being what everybody else tried to make me be, and the whole of it being nothing but the mind itself, but being a unified mind and not a compartmentalized mind.

this really helped me to perceive what part of my thinking was my "authentic self" and what part of my thinking was conditioning from the way and other abuse and training. so for example i always felt that abortion was about a human being and not about a "parasitcal mass", but in the way there was such terrible backlash for thinking like this that i got habituated to thinking that i was wrong and the way was right, which meant that whenever the subject of abortion came up, then i had to war within myself to push down what i was feeling and thinking on my own and make myself feel and think what the way wanted me to feel and think. after awhile my own thoughts and feelings never came up, then after awhile of that thinking, it seemed like it was my own thoughts and feelings to think like the way, and then after awhile of that thinking, my mind told me that the way agreed with me, instead of it being the other way around. it's a progressive and and planned and purposeful and methodical thing to steal someone's soul.

so it's like a battle of wills then, yours vs. theirs?

[waysider]

The Way insisted we deny our genuine "self" and adopt an "identity" that was TWI created, as if it were our "self"---- one that was focused on selling PFAL,

Everyone was supposed to be the same. That's not real. Each and every one of us is unique in our own special way. We were encouraged to suppress that reality with the concept of likemindedness.

Here we are now, decades later, exploring places that were once off-limits. Sometimes we agree. Sometimes not. But, it's tempered by a voice that speaks from a place we continue to explore as if for the very first time. And it's OK.

[excathedra]

a battle of wills ?

a battle of finding yourself or remembering yourself

but if you were in from the childhood beginning

you have to rediscover you

not that different from my journey

i love who you are

[oenophile]

To anyone who thinks that TWI didn't manipulate people to be their lackies, please remember denial is not a river in Egypt.

Do you not remember the group pressure to take the next class, go to the big area function, skip studying for the big exam you had the next day to go to the branch meeting? Do you not remember the pressure that you felt under at the ROA to put your life on hold and go WOW which means, by the way, you don't get to see your family during the holidays, go to your mom's graduation when she received her Master's degree with cum laude honors or go to your brothers wedding? Do you not remember the cold looks (or perhaps that hot encounter you had with some pea brained leader) you got if you decided that the "next thing" wasn't right for you?

Since this thread is about soul, don't you remember being taught that is not your own anyway? Don't you know you were bought with a price and now you owe it to Der Vey because Der Vey taught you Der Wort. (Actually, now I have come to like wort since I started homebrewing.) Give me an effin break! You look back with rose colored glasses if you want, I like calling a spade a spade and a cult a cult.

Do you not remember how we were to hold in high and holy esteem a man that later we learned to be a drunken, lecherous plagarist as the Man of God For Our Day and Time? Did I learn some useful things in PFAL? Yes I did but I paid to take the damn thing didn't I? And for that I owed them my life? Give me an effin break. By the way, I also learned some crap too.

Do you not remember being told over and over that there are no grey areas only black and white when it comes to Der Wort? Ofcourse, the implication is you are either with us all the way or you might as well be working for the debbil. That is how all cults operate and many of us saw it happening to us but for some reason we just couldn't say the Emperor has no clothes until it became obvious the Emperor not only had no royal vestiments but he was also butt naked.

TWI is, was and will always be a godamned cult and did/does what all cults do which is to love bomb, indoctrinate, use group pressure to force conformity and redirect the will.

Give me an effin break!

Edited May 13, 2009 by oenophile

[brainfixed]

so it's like a battle of wills then, yours vs. theirs?

the will is something else entirely and implies an understanding which implies active thinking, but for me the soul is the place before thoughts occur, before the will gets in and shapes things and molds things to fit patterns of either my own or of others. the will involves active choice and once force and manipulation are used then it is no longer about active choice but about being cornered, and there's a huge difference, and the vast majority of people haven't had the tv and movie training to channel an inner ninja that can get them safely out of any situation either by plan or trained response.

so like with the abortion example i used before, i had a feeling with no active thought or even "evidence" or "training" that made me feel like an embryo or a fetus is a living human being, i was a child for crying out loud, but what the way taught about the "parasitical mass" didn't feel right in my tummy, and i couldn't tell even myself why i felt like that but i did and it wasn't about my will at all because i had no way of thinking what i would will in an abortion situation because what the heck was an abortion anyway? i had no thoughts to form my will from because i had no understanding. so no it's not about a battle of wills at all.

[socks]

"You look back with rose colored glasses if you want, I like calling a spade a spade and a cult a cult."

If you're referring to my references, Oeno, that's not what I'm doing. You can however give me an effin' break if you are and we can definitely discuss it directly and further, here.

[oenophile]

"You look back with rose colored glasses if you want, I like calling a spade a spade and a cult a cult."

If you're referring to my references, Oeno, that's not what I'm doing. You can however give me an effin' break if you are and we can definitely discuss it directly and further, here.

Socks,

I am sure you are a great guy and I know you are a good musician. Forgive my momentary indulgence in hyperbole as well as the rather shrill intonation of my post. Charge that to the rather rare foul mood I found myself in last night after a long, hard day rather to any negative personal feelings that you might imagine that I harbor toward you. Please understand that there are none.

Nonetheless, some of your posts were on my mind as I was cranking out my frustrations. I will be more than happy to discuss them here, openly and in a civilized manner.

Peace.

Edited May 14, 2009 by oenophile

[Ham]

ndividual self awareness is critical to a relationship with God then, as there is "one" God and many of "us".

That would make very very many "Gods", wouldn't it?

:)

[socks]

Dunno Ham. Not if there's one God and many of us which is what I wrote but then, maybe that does in fact mean many God and none of us, or whatever you'd like it to say. I haven't counted Gods recently and they do seem to proliferate. So do we. It may be getting crowded in the Deities, Aisle 9.

GS and the civilized rules of engagment do provide a reflection of how I think.

GS has rules about being courteous and respectful or something along those lines. Not to be insulting but it certainly doesn't control the mind, only the written words and those words as they appear on these pages. So I can think as rasty as I want about anyone or anything, I just need to treat others "respectfully" here or something to that effect. And that's good as rules go I think. But I doubt it does much to really control what's typed.

I try to be reasonably respectful, as you do. But (and I'd suspect it's the same for you) That's not why I do that, to follow the rules. Or to not get poked and prodded endlessly, or banned or whatever the consequences might be for breaking the rules.

I never pay attention to the rules here despite the fact that I chimed in with my scintillating observations and contributions about them. I just write what makes sense to me, what's of interest, what might be helpful or interesting to someone reading and I do it the way it seems correct to do, to me. If that coincides with the rules, fine. But they don't shape me, myself or I - or have any effect whatsoever on what I write. And the day I go off the rules, I will, should be, reminded of what they are and if I can't abide by that I should be treated like any rule breaker would be. I have no problem with that. But my "self" here isn't controlled or governed by the rules. They don't make me courteous if I am, respectful or considerate of others. If I am, at all and I'm not sure that I am. Others can judge, I really don't much care. I try to treat others as I would be treated. I fail regularly.

When I was in the Way and all of the years I worked there for them and with the people I knew, I was pretty much the same. My personal introduction to the bible was through many of the people who, with me, later joined up with the Way, PFAL, and all of that. I'll die with a stake in my heart before I sell those people and the years of loving life we shared, short. That ain't gonna happen.

I was in the program because I was asked to go into it and I wanted to be there so I went, and stayed. Over the years - then as now - I did things at the direction of others but I never did anything I felt was wrong or harmful because I was forced to.

I may have been mislead in some things. That happens. I may have been taught something that wasn't right. That happens. I may have been lied to about something. That happens. I may have done those things myself, and others. That happens.

It didn't happen though because I was brainwashed by a scummy cult leader and led to live in a fog of being anyone other than myself. I may have been highly incompetent in anything and everything and a whiz at others. That happens.

Ecathadriski said something once that just hit the bottom line for me - maybe not the way I feel all the time but when push comes to shove, it works: I'll take what I get in this life and I'll take what's coming to me in the next.

If others are to blame, so be it unto them.

[Bolshevik]

the will is something else entirely and implies an understanding which implies active thinking, but for me the soul is the place before thoughts occur, before the will gets in and shapes things and molds things to fit patterns of either my own or of others. the will involves active choice and once force and manipulation are used then it is no longer about active choice but about being cornered, and there's a huge difference, and the vast majority of people haven't had the tv and movie training to channel an inner ninja that can get them safely out of any situation either by plan or trained response.

so like with the abortion example i used before, i had a feeling with no active thought or even "evidence" or "training" that made me feel like an embryo or a fetus is a living human being, i was a child for crying out loud, but what the way taught about the "parasitical mass" didn't feel right in my tummy, and i couldn't tell even myself why i felt like that but i did and it wasn't about my will at all because i had no way of thinking what i would will in an abortion situation because what the heck was an abortion anyway? i had no thoughts to form my will from because i had no understanding. so no it's not about a battle of wills at all.

I don't know that a will implies anything cognitive. Some people seem to just decide and act and never consider or ponder.

"a place before thoughts occur" - very interesting phrase. like a subconscience? impulse or instinct? (Freudian slips? )

that feeling in your tummy, could it have been a reaction against the way abortion was described in twi? against the attitude and the way they presented it? They were always condescending and such when they spoke. Could one feel threatened by them because of the controlling words and instinctively rebel; do/think the opposite of what they say because of some inherited trait? I don't think people naturally do/think what others tell them too, unless they have some motivation to do so.

"authentic self" or soul makes it sound like there is more to us then our physical being. maybe that's not what you mean?

[Bolshevik]

The Way insisted we deny our genuine "self" and adopt an "identity" that was TWI created, as if it were our "self"---- one that was focused on selling PFAL,

Everyone was supposed to be the same. That's not real. Each and every one of us is unique in our own special way. We were encouraged to suppress that reality with the concept of likemindedness.

Here we are now, decades later, exploring places that were once off-limits. Sometimes we agree. Sometimes not. But, it's tempered by a voice that speaks from a place we continue to explore as if for the very first time. And it's OK.

some folks have adopted that "twi created identity" -- and I could never imagine them being anything else.

[Ham]

I tend to agree with some "mysticism"..

In the beginning, there was one God.. or Deity. And it was boring. Everything was perfect..

what do we (I) do today.. I'll check with the weatherman (me).. well, weather is perfect today.. hmm. what now..

I think it was that way for a long, long time..

Then came the big bang..

[Bolshevik]

you're assuming time existed.

[Ham]

Oh no. It didn't.. at the time.. if one can call it that..

[Ham]

I think.. most of us can remember the separation from the "perfection" or whatever one might call it..

it was like death..

jumping into a vortex, not knowing where one might emerge..

well.. these are a few impressions I had when I was very young.. might be nothing to it..

[Bolshevik]

I find it plausible to consider 9, 10, 11, maybe 12 dimensions. but zero dimensions?

maybe Dr. Who could explain it. . .

[Ham]

I watched a lot of Doctor Who..

It was a "power".. to great for a being to possess..

Did you follow the key to time subseries? "It" ended ip being scattered through time..

Yeah, I know it's fiction.. but sometimes its the best we have..

Edited May 14, 2009 by Ham

[Bolshevik]

I watched a lot of Doctor Who..

It was a "power".. to great for a being to possess..

Did you follow the key to time subseries? "It" ended ip being was scattered through time

I think it was the 8th doctor I saw last.

Yeah, I know it's fiction.. but sometimes the best we have..

so, so very very true

[Ham]

The fourth doctor broke the core of the key to time when the tardis was in the vortex.. scattering the key throughout time and space..

I'd like to meet some of the writers..

[Bolshevik]

God apparently lives outside of time and space

if the key to time is lost

is God locked out?

"Help us Obiwan err, Dr Who, you're our only hope . . "

[Ham]

No.. I think he's everywhere..

wasn't an option before..

[Bolshevik]

so in zero dimensions God is nowhere.

creates a universe, bam, dude's everywhere

[Ham]

Ya.. but it cost Him.. lots..

Jewish mysticism.. the way I read it..

it cost him the same kind of sacrifice, not unlike the costs of redemption"..

Edited May 14, 2009 by Ham

[Bolshevik]

. . .

it cost him the same kind of sacrifice, not unlike the costs of redemption"..

It cost him to create the universe?

[Ham]

Yes, from what I've read..

it might just be fiction..

I probably will never find the reference..

but a part of "God" had to die for this universe to come into being..

not unlike the Christian doctrine of redemption.. something perfect had to die to atone for whatever it is.. the coming age, eternal life..