All these years of study thinking I was growing in the word all to come to a state where I don't believe anything. So I am nothing... and only as nothing do I feel that I bear the image of God.
I don't even believe in Jesus anymore.
Even Paul the apostle and the other disciples/apostles are suspect to me.
I see the entire first century church as the product of a bunch of people who realized they could not go back to Judaism and the Romans were too decadent and the Greeks seemed to have a monopoly on knowledge so they made up a story to perpetuate a subset of laws and place the fear of God upon the human mind.
So they fabricated this Jesus as the sun going through the seasons to satisfy the pagans they had his fulfill the law to please the Jews and had him speak in parables to satisfy the Greeks and the martyred him to make us all feel "heavy and gloomy" and the world bought it and await his return.
We have been raised to depend upon something other than ourselves for our own sufficiency. We are told we all desire eternal life when it is simply the will to survive that we attained through millions of years of evolution...
You're reminding me of one of my "crises" after dialoging on Grease Spot for awhile. After trying to boil the issues down to something I could put my finger on - I think it finally bottomed out at one grand assumption which was the basis for my belief system - a simple assumption that I had ever since I was a little boy - and that is a belief that there is a supreme being, a creator who started this whole thing.
And perhaps realizing that all that was is an inherited faith [being raised in a Roman Catholic family coupled with an awe of the wonders that science unfolds] was at least something for me to re-examine and see where I stood.I dunno .. . it's something I think a person should do at some point - determine how they came to a particular belief system. I discussed this on another thread - the evolution of my belief system - from an inherited faith - to a chosen faith [TWI's doctrines] - then a crisis of faith , re-examine their doctrines, then joining Grease Spot and going a step further - going all the way back to why I even believed there was a God in the first place. so you see - I ain't got squat - but it's something I'm comfortable with.
I'm back to square one - believing there's a supreme being. and after all my years of Bible study and pursuing systematic theology - I still think God had something to do with the Bible being written - though there's an awful lot of stuff in there that's confusing or open to a variety of interpretations - and I'm not hung up in the accuracy & integrity thing that vp pushed. I don't worship the book like I use to - but see it more as a means to an end - connecting with God. But that's just me - and everyone processes life differently - and imho it's a healthy thing to seriously examine one's beliefs - right down to its most basic elements.
all this is where I'm at currently on my personal journey; and it sounds like you're plotting your course now.
you might want to check out some threads along these lines and maybe start some of your own - targeting a specific issue - here's links to a few
I hope this doesn't seem lame sending you a song from you tube but it was a song I use too listen to full blast with headphone on while in the hospital at Sheppard Pratt trying to figure out stuff after getting shots of thorazin! (fOR THROWING MY SHOES IN THE QUIET ROOM
After torturing my mind with twisting train wreck logic, stretching verses to their excruciating outer limits, and rationalizing it all with mystical spiritualism, I figured why can't I just "chuck the whole thing"?
I hope this doesn't seem lame sending you a song from you tube but it was a song I use too listen to full blast with headphone on while in the hospital at Sheppard Pratt trying to figure out stuff after getting shots of thorazin! (fOR THROWING MY SHOES IN THE QUIET ROOM
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Forgive me, but I'm relatively new to the Bible and I haven't studied Romans 8 yet. I went ahead and read the chapter anyway in my NIV. Verses 20-21 read:
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
I'm having difficulty understanding these verses. Can any of you Bible experts give me a quick interpretation?
I love to read the bible, I also like to read other religious philosopy's as well. The book the I-ching really had an impact on my like. The most life changing thing I ever read was on page 166-167, hexagram 45 Kuai/ Break-through (Resoluteness). Even if only one inferior man is occupying a ruling position in a city, he is able to oppress superior men. Even a single passion still lurking in the heart has power to obscure reason. Passion and reason cannot exist side by side-- there fore fight without quater is nessary if the good is too prevail.
In a resolute struggle of the good against evil, there are, however, definite rules that must not be disregarded, if it is to succeed. Frist resolution must be based on a union of strenght and friendliness. second a comprise with evil is not possible; evil must under all circumstances be openly discredited.Nor must our own passions and shortcomings be grossed over. Third, the struggled must not be carried on directly. If evil is branded, it thinks of weapons, and if we do it a favor of fighting blow by blow, we lose in the end because thus we get ourselves get entangeled in hatred and passion. Therefore it is important to begin at home, to be on guard in our own persons against the faults we have branded. In this way, finding no opponent, the sharp edges of weapons of evil become dulled. For the sames reasons we should not combat our own faults directly. As long as we wrestle with them, they continue victorious. finally, the best way to fight evil is to make energetic progress in the good.
The book the I-ching really had an impact on my like. The most life changing thing I ever read was on page 166-167, hexagram 45 Kuai/ Break-through (Resoluteness). Even if only one inferior man is occupying a ruling position in a city, he is able to oppress superior men. Even a single passion still lurking in the heart has power to obscure reason. Passion and reason cannot exist side by side-- there fore fight without quater is nessary if the good is too prevail.
In a resolute struggle of the good against evil, there are, however, definite rules that must not be disregarded, if it is to succeed. Frist resolution must be based on a union of strenght and friendliness. second a comprise with evil is not possible; evil must under all circumstances be openly discredited.Nor must our own passions and shortcomings be grossed over. Third, the struggled must not be carried on directly. If evil is branded, it thinks of weapons, and if we do it a favor of fighting blow by blow, we lose in the end because thus we get ourselves get entangeled in hatred and passion. Therefore it is important to begin at home, to be on guard in our own persons against the faults we have branded. In this way, finding no opponent, the sharp edges of weapons of evil become dulled. For the sames reasons we should not combat our own faults directly. As long as we wrestle with them, they continue victorious. finally, the best way to fight evil is to make energetic progress in the good.
Interesting post. Reading the attached op-ed piece in today's New York Times reminded me of it -- not for the political, but for the moral implications.
I tend to think the only real struggle today is free thought and considering everything we type here is being recorded by corporations is our thought free? Is not Microsoft not watching us for the government through, err, windows? So it is us boys alone that "know" anymore.
Soon we will be shut off from our internet providers if we do not kowtow to their buy only our bread rules passed by err, "congress".
The government will be paying for abortions so only the select procreate with their new communist world health care plan. So how important is 4 crucified anymore?
I tend to think the only real struggle today is free thought and considering everything we type here is being recorded by corporations is our thought free? Is not Microsoft not watching us for the government through, err, windows? So it is us boys alone that "know" anymore.
Soon we will be shut off from our internet providers if we do not kowtow to their buy only our bread rules passed by err, "congress".
The government will be paying for abortions so only the select procreate with their new communist world health care plan.
So how important is 4 crucified anymore?
that depends - what's the penalty for not kowtowing to their rules?
I've considered moving to another country where everyone is pretty poor and life is simple.
Still may do that.
Just workout everyday, maybe surf, maybe read, meet a local female, procreate, farm the land, hunt, fish, build a house how I want it. Help the poor in any way I can. Learn the language, expand my mind. And smoke ganja daily, or better yet eat it. Grow wise in years and watch my offspring develop and make their own choices in life.
then die a death of peace next to my wife, and see what happens.
Costa Rica, Panama, I don't know, something like that.
I've considered moving to another country where everyone is pretty poor and life is simple.
Still may do that.
Just workout everyday, maybe surf, maybe read, meet a local female, procreate, farm the land, hunt, fish, build a house how I want it. Help the poor in any way I can. Learn the language, expand my mind. And smoke ganja daily, or better yet eat it. Grow wise in years and watch my offspring develop and make their own choices in life.
then die a death of peace next to my wife, and see what happens.
Costa Rica, Panama, I don't know, something like that.
I want to leave a positive mark on this world before I check out. Something that I will be remembered and loved for... I want to do things that touch people's heart and minds and provokes them to say, "this guy is someone special." I want to bring people to their emotions and fill them with love. I want to be immortal.
I want to leave a positive mark on this world before I check out. Something that I will be remembered and loved for... I want to do things that touch people's heart and minds and provokes them to say, "this guy is someone special." I want to bring people to their emotions and fill them with love. I want to be immortal.
How many people do you feel like you want to fill with love? 1? 100? 1,000,000,000,000?
We can have that type of affect on people every day.
If you want to reach a lot of people, then maybe write a book, or do something that will live far beyond how long our bodies will live.
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T-Bone
You're reminding me of one of my "crises" after dialoging on Grease Spot for awhile. After trying to boil the issues down to something I could put my finger on - I think it finally bottomed out at one grand assumption which was the basis for my belief system - a simple assumption that I had ever since I was a little boy - and that is a belief that there is a supreme being, a creator who started this whole thing.
And perhaps realizing that all that was is an inherited faith [being raised in a Roman Catholic family coupled with an awe of the wonders that science unfolds] was at least something for me to re-examine and see where I stood.I dunno .. . it's something I think a person should do at some point - determine how they came to a particular belief system. I discussed this on another thread - the evolution of my belief system - from an inherited faith - to a chosen faith [TWI's doctrines] - then a crisis of faith , re-examine their doctrines, then joining Grease Spot and going a step further - going all the way back to why I even believed there was a God in the first place. so you see - I ain't got squat - but it's something I'm comfortable with.
I'm back to square one - believing there's a supreme being. and after all my years of Bible study and pursuing systematic theology - I still think God had something to do with the Bible being written - though there's an awful lot of stuff in there that's confusing or open to a variety of interpretations - and I'm not hung up in the accuracy & integrity thing that vp pushed. I don't worship the book like I use to - but see it more as a means to an end - connecting with God. But that's just me - and everyone processes life differently - and imho it's a healthy thing to seriously examine one's beliefs - right down to its most basic elements.
all this is where I'm at currently on my personal journey; and it sounds like you're plotting your course now.
you might want to check out some threads along these lines and maybe start some of your own - targeting a specific issue - here's links to a few
http://www.greasespo...post__p__357240
http://www.greasespo...post__p__276432
http://www.greasespo...post__p__249223
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Ham
I dunno.. friend, you ARE someone..
I've gone through a lot of crap to figure that out.. yeah, I might be small.. and all, but that is ok..
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cheranne
I hope this doesn't seem lame sending you a song from you tube but it was a song I use too listen to full blast with headphone on while in the hospital at Sheppard Pratt trying to figure out stuff after getting shots of thorazin! (fOR THROWING MY SHOES IN THE QUIET ROOM
AND SCREAMING "I DON'T BELIEVE IN ANYTHING!!!)
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="
You are not alone in how you feel! I'm glad you have the balls to speak openly about this
because so so many people can't.
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DrWearWord
After torturing my mind with twisting train wreck logic, stretching verses to their excruciating outer limits, and rationalizing it all with mystical spiritualism, I figured why can't I just "chuck the whole thing"?
I love Alanis thanks! And isn't it ironic... :)
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sirguessalot
from "faith" to "faith" to "faith" to "faith"...our sense of "self" sure does seem to leap and move from time to time
as if womb-to-tomb, life is an ongoing series of profound humiliations...each enlightenment being a seed for the humiliation to come
good luck, DWW...and congrats
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T-Bone
Great post Sir Guess!
I too wish you congrats DrWW!
Cheranne - great post too - and I love Alanis - listened to a CD of hers all last week to & from work.
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soul searcher
Forgive me, but I'm relatively new to the Bible and I haven't studied Romans 8 yet. I went ahead and read the chapter anyway in my NIV. Verses 20-21 read:
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
I'm having difficulty understanding these verses. Can any of you Bible experts give me a quick interpretation?
Thank you. I think Hemingway must have quoted it on one of his stories. I've never Marx.
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DrWearWord
Romans 8:20 KJV
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Comment: To me the "creature" in this verse was the old testament God. Give that some thought.
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nyunknown
I love to read the bible, I also like to read other religious philosopy's as well. The book the I-ching really had an impact on my like. The most life changing thing I ever read was on page 166-167, hexagram 45 Kuai/ Break-through (Resoluteness). Even if only one inferior man is occupying a ruling position in a city, he is able to oppress superior men. Even a single passion still lurking in the heart has power to obscure reason. Passion and reason cannot exist side by side-- there fore fight without quater is nessary if the good is too prevail.
In a resolute struggle of the good against evil, there are, however, definite rules that must not be disregarded, if it is to succeed. Frist resolution must be based on a union of strenght and friendliness. second a comprise with evil is not possible; evil must under all circumstances be openly discredited.Nor must our own passions and shortcomings be grossed over. Third, the struggled must not be carried on directly. If evil is branded, it thinks of weapons, and if we do it a favor of fighting blow by blow, we lose in the end because thus we get ourselves get entangeled in hatred and passion. Therefore it is important to begin at home, to be on guard in our own persons against the faults we have branded. In this way, finding no opponent, the sharp edges of weapons of evil become dulled. For the sames reasons we should not combat our own faults directly. As long as we wrestle with them, they continue victorious. finally, the best way to fight evil is to make energetic progress in the good.
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soul searcher
Interesting post. Reading the attached op-ed piece in today's New York Times reminded me of it -- not for the political, but for the moral implications.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/15/opinion/15brooks.html?_r=1&ref=opinion
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DrWearWord
I tend to think the only real struggle today is free thought and considering everything we type here is being recorded by corporations is our thought free? Is not Microsoft not watching us for the government through, err, windows? So it is us boys alone that "know" anymore.
Soon we will be shut off from our internet providers if we do not kowtow to their buy only our bread rules passed by err, "congress".
The government will be paying for abortions so only the select procreate with their new communist world health care plan. So how important is 4 crucified anymore?
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waysider
We only thought it was important because Wierwille told us it was.
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T-Bone
that depends - what's the penalty for not kowtowing to their rules?
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kimberly
DWW, dang, since you used to be someone then I would go back and that someone.
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year2027
God first
thanks DrWearWord
you are no more a anti Christ than Christ himself
secret societies? are sects we all go through this
that the learning purpose
that all God wants to teach us
like your zero cult a pattern you can learn by
your nothing special but i am not either
we are all trying made sense of things
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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nandon
I feel you
I've considered moving to another country where everyone is pretty poor and life is simple.
Still may do that.
Just workout everyday, maybe surf, maybe read, meet a local female, procreate, farm the land, hunt, fish, build a house how I want it. Help the poor in any way I can. Learn the language, expand my mind. And smoke ganja daily, or better yet eat it. Grow wise in years and watch my offspring develop and make their own choices in life.
then die a death of peace next to my wife, and see what happens.
Costa Rica, Panama, I don't know, something like that.
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DrWearWord
I want to leave a positive mark on this world before I check out. Something that I will be remembered and loved for... I want to do things that touch people's heart and minds and provokes them to say, "this guy is someone special." I want to bring people to their emotions and fill them with love. I want to be immortal.
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nandon
How many people do you feel like you want to fill with love? 1? 100? 1,000,000,000,000?
We can have that type of affect on people every day.
If you want to reach a lot of people, then maybe write a book, or do something that will live far beyond how long our bodies will live.
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