But wouldn't it be nice if we could just get together with the TWI and resolve our problems between us. Maybe even have a community bridges of understanding event together next year at Holocaust Remembrance Day, or a joint Aramaic Studies Symposium...
The Way's current research department is one guy part time. They have no current Aramaic skills. Bernita Jess was the last who did. Those who did the work on the Aramaic publications have been run off. One of them posts here. I don't know what they would do at a joint Aramaic Studies Symposium except stand around and pick their nose. They certainly couldn't intelligently discuss Aramaic translations - nobody there knows anything about it.
But wouldn't it be nice if we could just get together with the TWI and resolve our problems between us. Maybe even have a community bridges of understanding event together next year at Holocaust Remembrance Day, or a joint Aramaic Studies Symposium...
I have to think you at least understand The Way's party line regarding The Holocaust. :o
Would you mind telling us how you translated Matt. 27:46 and why you might have decided on your translation of that verse? It reads like this in the KJV:
"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Eli Eli, lama sabachthani? That is to say, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
There you have it. They would be peaceful if you would just stop using their work, and you would be peaceful if they would just stop insisting that you stop using their work. Have you ever approached them about paying them a percentage for royalties?
The Way's current research department is one guy part time. They have no current Aramaic skills. Bernita Jess was the last who did. Those who did the work on the Aramaic publications have been run off. One of them posts here. I don't know what they would do at a joint Aramaic Studies Symposium except stand around and pick their nose. They certainly couldn't intelligently discuss Aramaic translations - nobody there knows anything about it.
But that is the beauty of it Chockful, James doesn't either!
They will have a great time.
There you have it. They would be peaceful if you would just stop using their work, and you would be peaceful if they would just stop insisting that you stop using their work. Have you ever approached them about paying them a percentage for royalties?
Now then there is an excellent logical solution and some how i doubt that it would happen, though I am sure TWI would be willing to handle it that way. as was noted before TWI is about the Money!
James, I think I see the direction you're taking with this and I see your point. I would hope that you have some documentation of TWI's own doctrine that there is only one right way to interpret scripture, because working backward from that as you've worked forward in your argument one should logically conclude that if one works with language as it is commonly used, the two "versions" would of necessity be strongly similar, even using identical words/sentences, if both groups of translators use sources in common, speak the same language, and have established similar standards of correctness.
how many ways, in German, could one translate "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth"? I bet if I ask 10 educated german speakers, I'll get 10 virtually identical translations.
TWI is claiming ownership of a translation of scripture by saying it's an interpretation of scripture and therefore any other translation/interpretation of scripture should be significantly different because interpretation is based on church doctrine.
can no one else see the hypocrisy in that argument? TWI, who maintains there is only one correct interpretation of scripture, in order to defend their version now says their interpretation can't be the only correct one, because it should all depend on the doctrines of the church as to how the translation/interpretations read?
TWI is making the case into one of church doctrine, which is why the argument to throw out the case is valid. if they focus on the issue of copyright infringement (which is properly heard in federal court), all James has to do is demonstrate that the similar/identical passages are most likely to be translated the way they are by various scholars or to find an older source out of copyright that does translate that way, and the court rules for him.
James, I think I see the direction you're taking with this and I see your point. I would hope that you have some documentation of TWI's own doctrine that there is only one right way to interpret scripture, because working backward from that as you've worked forward in your argument one should logically conclude that if one works with language as it is commonly used, the two "versions" would of necessity be strongly similar, even using identical words/sentences, if both groups of translators use sources in common, speak the same language, and have established similar standards of correctness.
how many ways, in German, could one translate "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth"? I bet if I ask 10 educated german speakers, I'll get 10 virtually identical translations.
TWI is claiming ownership of a translation of scripture by saying it's an interpretation of scripture and therefore any other translation/interpretation of scripture should be significantly different because interpretation is based on church doctrine.
can no one else see the hypocrisy in that argument? TWI, who maintains there is only one correct interpretation of scripture, in order to defend their version now says their interpretation can't be the only correct one, because it should all depend on the doctrines of the church as to how the translation/interpretations read?
TWI is making the case into one of church doctrine, which is why the argument to throw out the case is valid. if they focus on the issue of copyright infringement (which is properly heard in federal court), all James has to do is demonstrate that the similar/identical passages are most likely to be translated the way they are by various scholars or to find an older source out of copyright that does translate that way, and the court rules for him.
Potato - you have it backwards - James' organization is making the case into one of church doctrine. He can correct me if I'm wrong, but what he seems to be saying is that because the HRV that he wrote is essentially the doctrine of his religious organization, that it supersedes anyone's claim to copyright under the first amendment of the constitution.
The WNAE maintained that the HRV is its standard accepted version of the Scriptures, and as such, is the doctrine of its organization. The WNAE maintains that Bible translation is Scripture interpretation and that Scripture interpretation is doctrine. They state that they believe in every word the Bible as it as written as their doctrine and that the HRV is their Bible.
In their Motion filed March 8th, the WNAE argued that their Bible is their doctrine, that Bible translation is Scripture interpretation, and Scripture interpretation is doctrine. They further argued that the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment has been understood by the U.S. Supreme Court to prevent the court from hearing property disputes between religious groups where doing so would require the court to consider, weigh or interpret doctrine or resolve doctrinal disputes. In this case they argued that the court would have to engage in all of these forbidden activities in order to hear this case, and in effect regulate their interpretation of Scriptures and therefore their doctrine.
TWI is treating this as a simple copyright violation and that Mr. Trimm plagiarized a good portion of its Aramaic NT for his HRV.
Potato - you have it backwards - James' organization is making the case into one of church doctrine. He can correct me if I'm wrong, but what he seems to be saying is that because the HRV that he wrote is essentially the doctrine of his religious organization, that it supersedes anyone's claim to copyright under the first amendment of the constitution.
yes, I get that James' organization is making it into a case of church doctrine, and after analysis, I think he has a point. it's a translation of scripture, not a creative work like a novel. churches use a lot of the same language and hold beliefs in common that permeate religious life. it follows that any translation is going to end up infused with it and two groups translating the same texts should have similarities, and in the case of religious texts I'd expect strong similarities, unless their goal is to create a new version that goes beyond a translation into a dogmatic interpretation.
TWI is treating this as a simple copyright violation and that Mr. Trimm plagiarized a good portion of its Aramaic NT for his HRV.
I got that. if he didn't plagiarize, he can prove it to the court. I just see a lot of irony that an organization like TWI that believes there's only one right way to interpret scripture is claiming ownership of a translation. now anyone else who translates the texts and comes up with something too similar has infringed copyright and must invent a new version, which guarantees TWI can point fingers and ridicule the less perfect version as inferior because TWI got it right but no one else can.
like I said, I could ask 10 educated german speakers to translate "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" and see what comes back.
And at the ninth hour, Yeshua cried with a loud voice, and said: My
El, My El, why have you forsaken Me?
(Matt. 27:46 HRV)
A Footnote reads:
Psalm 22:2(22:1); The Hebrew of DuTillet has "forgotten" see Psalm
42:10(42:9) Shem Tob and Quinquarbos have ”forsaken me” in agreement
with Ps. 22:2(22:1). Munster and the Aramaic (Old Syriac and Pedangta)
has ”forsaken me”. Most Greek and Latin manuscripts have SABACHTHANI
(a transliteration) however Greek Codex D and the Old Latin have
“Zapthani”. See also note to Mark 15:34.
The Parallel passage in Mark 15:34 has:
And in the ninth hour, Yeshua cried out with a loud voice and said:
<El, El l’mana sh’vaktani, which is,> My Eloah, My Eloah, why have You
forsaken Me?
(Mark 14:34 HRV)
A Footnote reads:
Obviously quoting Ps. 22:1 (22:2). The Aramaic phrase l’mana sh’
vaktani could also be understood as “for this you have kept me”. See
note to Mt. 27:46.
(In the HRV <> indicate passages which appear in the Pedangta but not
in the older Old Syriac Version)
Regarding the Holocaust, I am aware of TWI's past issues, and it is an
issue near and dear to my heart. My children's grandmother (who
recently passed away) was a Holocaust survivor. WNAE is the Worldwide
Nazarene Assembly of Elohim. We are a "Messianic Jewish" group seeking
to restore the ancient sect of the Nazarenes as mentioned by the so-
called "Church Fathers". The first believers in Yeshua were a Jewish sect known as "Nazarenes"
or in Hebrew "Netzarim" (Acts 24:5).
The "church father" Jerome (4th Cent.) described these Nazarenes as
those "...who accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to
observe the old Law." (Jerome; On. Is. 8:14).
Elsewhere he writes:
Today there still exists among the Jews in all the synagogues of the
East a heresy which is called that of the Minæans,and which is still
condemned by the Pharisees; [its followers] are ordinarily called
'Nazarenes'; they believe that Messiah, the son of God, was born of
the Virgin Miriam, and they hold him to be the one who suffered under
Pontius Pilate and ascended to heaven, and in whom we also believe."
(Jerome; Letter 75 Jerome to Augustine)
The fourth century "church father" Epiphanius gives a more detailed
description:
But these sectarians... did not call themselves Christians--but
"Nazarenes," ... However they are simply complete Jews. They use not
only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews
do... They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as
the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion-- except for their
belief in Messiah, if you please! For they acknowledge both the
resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and
declare that G-d is one, and that his son is Yeshua the Messiah. They
are trained to a nicety in Hebrew. For among them the entire Law, the
Prophets, and the... Writings... are read in Hebrew, as they surely
are by the Jews. They are different from the Jews, and different from
Christians, only in the following. They disagree with Jews because
they have come to faith in Messiah; but since they are still fettered
by the Law--circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest-- they are not in
accord with Christians.... they are nothing but Jews.... They have the
Goodnews according to Matthew in its entirety in Hebrew. For it is
clear that they still preserve this, in the Hebrew alphabet, as it was
originally written. (Epiphanius; Panarion 29)
We maintain that Yeshua came to be the Jewish Messiah of Judaism rather then to create a new religion.
Ironically Nazarene Judaism is/was also known as "The Way".
Acts 24:5 reads:
"For we have found this man to be one who is corrupt and stirs up
sedition among all the Jews in all Ha-Eretz (The Land). For he is a
leader of the teaching of the Nazarenes."
(Acts 24:5 ? HRV from the Aramaic Pedangta)
The Greek has "sect" in pace of "teaching".
Then in Acts 24:14 Paul responds to this accusation saying:
"…this I do confess, that in the same teaching about which they are
speaking, I serve [Elohim]?"
(Acts 24:14 ? HRV from the Aramaic Pedangta)
Now while book of Acts was originally written in Aramaic, the only
surviving witness to that original Aramaic text in Aramaic is the
Pedangta (and a few quotations by Syriac "Church Fathers") the more
primitive Old Syriac Aramaic text of Acts has not survived.
We do have indirect witnesses to that text through the Western type
text of Acts preserved in the Western Type Greek manuscripts, and in
the Old Latin. While the Greek is not the original language of Acts,
it can preserve original readings not preserved in the Pedangta, in
much the same way that the LXX can sometimes preserve original
readings which have not survived in the Masoretic Text. In this case
the word "The Way" (a single word in Aramaic) has been omitted from
the Aramaic Pedangta version of Acts, but it is almost certainly
original, since it appears in all other versions of Acts.
The Original Aramaic of Acts most probably read:
"…this I do confess, in this Way, the teaching about which they are
speaking, I serve [Elohim]?"
(Acts 24:14 as it must have read in the original Aramaic)
Here it is clearly stated by Paul that "The Way" is a synonym for "The
Teaching/Sect of the Nazarenes".
So if we can better understand how "The Way" is used, we will better
understand how the term "Nazarenes" was understood.
The term "The Way" is used to describe believers in Acts 9:2 and Acts
22:4 (which actually recaps the events of Acts 9:2).
Both the Qumran community, and John quoted Is. 40:3 as being a
prophecy foretelling of their work (Mt. 3:3; Mk. 1:3; Lk. 3:4; Jn
1:23; Dam. Doc. viii, 12-14; ix, 20). This verse appears in most New
Testaments as:
The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
"Prepare the way of the Lord;
make straight in the desert a highway for our God."
However, the cantor markings in the Masoretic Text give us the
understanding:
The voice of one crying
"In the wilderness prepare the way of YHWH;
make straight in the desert a highway for our Elohim."
As a result of their use of this verse, both John and the Essenes of
the Qumran community referred to themselves as being "in the
wilderness" and both the Essene Qumran community and the early
believers in Yeshua called their movement "The Way". (Mt. 3:3; Mk.
1:3; Lk. 3:4; Jn 1:23; Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14 compared to Manual of
Discipline viii, 12-14; ix, 17-22).
In Acts we read about Paul just before he became a believer in Messiah:
Now Shaul was yet full of the threat and anger of murder
against the talmidim of our Adon. And he asked for letters
from the Chief Cohen to give to Darm'suk (Damascus)
to the synagogues, that if he should find any who follow in
this way, men or women, he might bind and bring them
to Yerushalayim.
(Acts 9:1-2)
Now why would Shaul want to go to Damascus to pursue the followers of
Yeshua?
Damascus was the capitol of Essene Judaism as laid out in the
"Damascus Document" found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. The first
Essenes "...went out of the land of Judah and dwelt in the land of
Damascus..." (Damascus Document 6, 5)
As we have demonstrated so many times before (and this is a whole
separate article) the first followers of Yeshua were from the Essenes.
Now while on his way to Damascus Paul encounters the resurrected
Yeshua and himself becomes a believer in Yeshua as the Messiah (Acts
9:3-7). As instructed by Yeshua, Paul enters Damascus and makes
contact with the followers of Yeshua there (Acts 9:8-19). In his
letter to the Galatians Paul describes these events as follows:
And I did not go to Yerushaliyim to the emissaries who
were before me, but I went to Arabia and again returned
to Darm'suk (Damascus), and after three years, I went
to Yerushalayim to seek Kefa and remained with him
fifteen days.
(Gal. 1:17-18)
Why did Paul remain for three years in Damascus? Because it took
three years to be fully admitted into the Essene community. As
Josephus writes:
"But now if any one has a mind to come over to their sect, he is not
immediately admitted, but he is prescribed the same method of living
which they use for a year, while he continues excluded'; and they give
him also a small hatchet, and the fore-mentioned girdle, and the white
garment. And when he has given evidence, during that time, that he can
observe their continence, he approaches nearer to their way of living,
and is made a partaker of the waters of purification; yet is he not
even now admitted to live with them; for after this demonstration of
his fortitude, his temper is tried two more years; and if he appear to
be worthy, they then admit him into their society."
(Wars 2:8:7)
Paul went through the entire process of learning the ins and outs of
Essene Judaism. These studies also shaped Paul's thinking. There are
several Parallels between Paul's teachings and the Essene teachings at
Qumran.
The important point I want to make here is that the term "The Way" was
originally a euphemism for Essene Judaism and became a euphemism for
Nazarene Judaism as an offshoot of Essene Judaism. Thus "Nazarene" is
clearly a designation of a Jewish sect, just as the Essenes, Pharisees
and Sadducees were also Jewish sects.
It is important to realize that the term “The Way” is drawn from the Torah itself, in which “The Way” is clearly identified as being the Torah and the commandments.
And YHWH said unto me: Arise, get you down quickly from hence, for your people
that you have brought forth out of Egypt have dealt corruptly. They are quickly turned
aside out of THE WAY which I commanded them: they have made them a molten image.
(Deut. 9:12)
For if you shall diligently keep all this commandment which I command you, to do it,
to love YHWH your Elohim, to walk in all HIS WAYS and to cleave unto Him,
Then will YHWH drive out all these nations from before you, and you shall
dispossess nations greater and mightier than yourselves.
Every place whereon the sole of your foot shall tread, shall be yours: from the
wilderness and the L’vanon, from the river--the river Euphrates--even unto the hinder sea
shall be your border.
There shall no man be able to stand against you. YHWH your Elohim shall lay the
fear of you and the dread of you, upon all the land that you shall tread upon, as He has
spoken unto you.
Behold, I set before you this day, a blessing and a curse:
he blessing, if you shall hearken unto the commandments of YHWH your Elohim,
which I command you this day.
And the curse, if you shall not hearken unto the commandments of YHWH your
Elohim, but turn aside out of THE WAY which I command you this day, to go after other
gods, which you have not known.
(Deut. 11:22-28)
See, I have set before you this day, life and good, and death and evil,
In that I command you this day to love YHWH your Elohim, to walk in His WAYS,
and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His ordinances; then you shall live
and multiply. And YHWH your Elohim shall bless you, in the land where you go in to
possess it.
(Deut. 30:15-16)
Scripture also tells us that Messiah himself is “The Way” (Jn. 14:6).
To begin with we must understand that this Assembly is also known as the "Body of Messiah" as we read:
"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the
preeminence."
(Col. 1:18 - KJV)
"And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head
over all things to the church,
Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all."
(Eph. 1:22-23 - KJV)
Now one may ask what "Assembly" is the allegorical Messiah? To find the answer to that question lets look at Matthew 2:14-15:
"When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and
departed into Egypt:
And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled
which was spoken of the Lord
by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. "
(Matthew 2:14-15 - KJV)
Now here Matthew is citing a prophecy in Hosea 11:1 and applying it to Messiah. Now let us go back and look at this prophecy in Hosea 11:1 in context:
"When Israel was a child, then I loved him,
and called my son out of Egypt."
(Hosea 11:1 - KJV)
Here Hosea is referring to Israel as the son who is called out of Egypt. This points us back to a passage in the Torah:
"And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go,
behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn."
(Ex. 4:22-23 - KJV)
From these two passages we learn that Israel is the firstborn son of Elohim who is called out of Egypt. However in Matthew it is Yeshua the Messiah who is called up out of Egypt and in Col. 1:18 Messiah is the "firstborn". Moreover Hebrews speaks of the "church of the firstborn" (Heb. 12:23 - KJV).
Thus Israel is allegorically equivalent to the Messiah. Messiah is “The Way” and His true Assembly, the Assembly of Israel, is also “The Way”.
The Way in the Scriptures is a Torah Observant sect of Judaism known as “Nazarene” with roots in Essene Judaism.
Ironically also the Aramaic (Syriac) New Testament is originally a Nazarene Jewish document. Eusebius writes of The second century Nazarene writer Gish’fa (Heggissipus) him:
And he quotes some passages from The Gospel according to
the Hebrews and from ‘The Syriac’, and some particulars from
the Hebrew tongue, showing that he was … from the Hebrews,
and he mentions other matters as taken from the oral tradition
of the Jews.”
(Eccl. Hist. 4:22)
As for the court case I will just say that at the moment, in the interest of peacemaking we have high hopes of working out something mutually acceptable with TWI. So while we do have a case to make (concerning the HRV), I will not make it here at this time while that hope is alive.
yes, I get that James' organization is making it into a case of church doctrine, and after analysis, I think he has a point. it's a translation of scripture, not a creative work like a novel. churches use a lot of the same language and hold beliefs in common that permeate religious life. it follows that any translation is going to end up infused with it and two groups translating the same texts should have similarities, and in the case of religious texts I'd expect strong similarities, unless their goal is to create a new version that goes beyond a translation into a dogmatic interpretation.
I got that. if he didn't plagiarize, he can prove it to the court. I just see a lot of irony that an organization like TWI that believes there's only one right way to interpret scripture is claiming ownership of a translation. now anyone else who translates the texts and comes up with something too similar has infringed copyright and must invent a new version, which guarantees TWI can point fingers and ridicule the less perfect version as inferior because TWI got it right but no one else can.
like I said, I could ask 10 educated german speakers to translate "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" and see what comes back.
p.s. I think TWI is stupid.
The irony is delicious. That doesn't make the argument (on Trimm's part) any less weak. His argument would be stronger (IMO) if he could pull a translation that predates TWI's and run a similarity test on it and thereby bypass the TWI thing altogether. My gut feeling is that it wouldn't pass, which is why he's playing the doctrine/first amendment card.
On a different note - i can't help but wonder where we would all be if BG Leonard and others had as vigorously defended their intellectual property?
And at the ninth hour, Yeshua cried with a loud voice, and said: My
El, My El, why have you forsaken Me?
(Matt. 27:46 HRV)
A Footnote reads:
Psalm 22:2(22:1); The Hebrew of DuTillet has "forgotten" see Psalm
42:10(42:9) Shem Tob and Quinquarbos have "forsaken me" in agreement
with Ps. 22:2(22:1). Munster and the Aramaic (Old Syriac and Pedangta)
has "forsaken me". Most Greek and Latin manuscripts have SABACHTHANI
(a transliteration) however Greek Codex D and the Old Latin have
"Zapthani". See also note to Mark 15:34.
The Parallel passage in Mark 15:34 has:
And in the ninth hour, Yeshua cried out with a loud voice and said:
<El, El l'mana sh'vaktani, which is,> My Eloah, My Eloah, why have You
forsaken Me?
(Mark 14:34 HRV)
A Footnote reads:
Obviously quoting Ps. 22:1 (22:2). The Aramaic phrase l'mana sh'
vaktani could also be understood as "for this you have kept me". See
note to Mt. 27:46.
(In the HRV <> indicate passages which appear in the Pedangta but not
in the older Old Syriac Version)
Maybe I've misunderstood a few things here (wouldn't be the first time). I thought your Bible was a translation from the Aramaic (the P-e-s-h-i-t-t-a). If so, how come you put your translation for the Aramaic in footnotes?
Maybe I've misunderstood a few things here (wouldn't be the first time). I thought your Bible was a translation from the Aramaic (the P-e-s-h-i-t-t-a). If so, how come you put your translation for the Aramaic in footnotes?
Matthew and Hebrews in the HRV are primarily translated from old Hebrew manuscripts of Matthew with Aramaic noted in footnotes.
The Aramaic of the Four Gospels is partly taken from the P-S-H-I-T-T-A.
The extra-Pedangta books of 2Peter, 2Jn, 3Jn and Jude are taken from Greek (for lack of authoritative Aramaic)
The extra-Pedangta book of Revelation is taken from the Crawford Aramaic text.
You know, I could understand if James Trimm had plagiarized one of the way international's garbage publications such as the collaterals, are the dead alive now, etc. But to go after someone for coming up with a new version? That one has me baffled. I would think a work of this nature would only serve to help add insight and understanding to the bible by having another Hebrew / Aramaic based text to use for reference. How low, how very low.
You know, I could understand if James Trimm had plagiarized one of the way international's garbage publications such as the collaterals, are the dead alive now, etc. But to go after someone for coming up with a new version? That one has me baffled. I would think a work of this nature would only serve to help add insight and understanding to the bible by having another Hebrew / Aramaic based text to use for reference. How low, how very low.
The thing is,
if his version is plagiarized from THEIR book(s), then they have a legal basis for a
complaint (violation of their legal rights under copyright law), and are entitled
to their day in court, and judgment in their favor.
Whether or not his version is plagiarized from their book(s) is a matter for the
court(s) to determine.
From a Christian standpoint, it would be better if they went directly to him and
tried to get satisfaction from him first. I do not know if they attempted this.
From a legal standpoint, that is not required beyond possibly issuing a
cease-and-desist letter. It should be no surprise IF the way international
handled this solely as a legal matter, and ignored how the Bible says to treat
other Christians- they abuse their OWN Christians and are unlikely to treat
outsider Christians with the respect Christians usually accord one another
Good points. I was basing my views on a "furtherance of the gospel" perspective. But we all know that the way international isn't really about that.
James probably thought the same thing. He seems to be genuinely surprised by this turn of events. If it were me, I'd probably point people to TWI's book and then publish a commentary to point out deviations from his theology. But then there's that pesky problem of TWI's reluctance to sell its products to non-way people.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
8
9
8
23
Popular Days
Apr 12
29
Apr 11
19
Apr 14
16
Apr 6
10
Top Posters In This Topic
Tzaia 8 posts
WordWolf 9 posts
leafytwiglet 8 posts
James Trimm 23 posts
Popular Days
Apr 12 2010
29 posts
Apr 11 2010
19 posts
Apr 14 2010
16 posts
Apr 6 2010
10 posts
Popular Posts
mstar1
Hi Rock THIS SITE lists them as different people with different skill sets and different 'gifts' <_< :) It lists Rood as a "False Prophet", while Trimm is a "pathological liar"
mstar1
Hi Shift I hope that you stick around! Its great to remeber why I left. They (the bible study folks) got in a hit and run accident with a neighbors car if you read the article.. as they had no park
mstar1
Im not a lawyer but I would think that there would be some legal boundaries beyond "whatever". Fundamentalist Mormons are not legally free to exercise their belief in plural marriage. David Koresh ty
James Trimm
"Blessed [are] the peacemakers..."
(Matt. 5:9 AEINT)
:-)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
well yea--
have you tried extending a hand in a christian manner to work it out amiably?
they want something--you want something--it might not be all that hard to work out some middle ground that you can both live with....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Proverbs 11:!4.
"Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety."
You've had the benefit of counsel of a number of posters. They've all said different
things in different ways, but they all offered the same general advice
and foresaw the same general outcome.
Of course, you're free to ignore them all, keep saying you know better than
everyone else, and keep yourself as a client in a court of law.
(There's a saying about that.)
Us, we'll just wait for the report of how badly you get spanked.
You've chosen a losing strategy, and chosen to ignore the advice of the people
who actually didn't recommend you getting spanked. Either you're so
narcissistic you can't see you're completely outclassed and don't know your
way around a courtroom, or you KNOW you're going to crash and burn and are
persisting out of some perverse desire to be humiliated in court.
Either way, there's really no point to posting here anymore, unless you want
to join in some of the discussions with nothing to do with your court-case.
You're free to do that, of course...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
The Way's current research department is one guy part time. They have no current Aramaic skills. Bernita Jess was the last who did. Those who did the work on the Aramaic publications have been run off. One of them posts here. I don't know what they would do at a joint Aramaic Studies Symposium except stand around and pick their nose. They certainly couldn't intelligently discuss Aramaic translations - nobody there knows anything about it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I have to think you at least understand The Way's party line regarding The Holocaust. :o
Link to comment
Share on other sites
penworks
James,
Would you mind telling us how you translated Matt. 27:46 and why you might have decided on your translation of that verse? It reads like this in the KJV:
"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Eli Eli, lama sabachthani? That is to say, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
Thanks,
Pen
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
There you have it. They would be peaceful if you would just stop using their work, and you would be peaceful if they would just stop insisting that you stop using their work. Have you ever approached them about paying them a percentage for royalties?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
leafytwiglet
But that is the beauty of it Chockful, James doesn't either!
They will have a great time.
Now then there is an excellent logical solution and some how i doubt that it would happen, though I am sure TWI would be willing to handle it that way. as was noted before TWI is about the Money!
Edited by leafytwigletLink to comment
Share on other sites
potato
James, I think I see the direction you're taking with this and I see your point. I would hope that you have some documentation of TWI's own doctrine that there is only one right way to interpret scripture, because working backward from that as you've worked forward in your argument one should logically conclude that if one works with language as it is commonly used, the two "versions" would of necessity be strongly similar, even using identical words/sentences, if both groups of translators use sources in common, speak the same language, and have established similar standards of correctness.
how many ways, in German, could one translate "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth"? I bet if I ask 10 educated german speakers, I'll get 10 virtually identical translations.
TWI is claiming ownership of a translation of scripture by saying it's an interpretation of scripture and therefore any other translation/interpretation of scripture should be significantly different because interpretation is based on church doctrine.
can no one else see the hypocrisy in that argument? TWI, who maintains there is only one correct interpretation of scripture, in order to defend their version now says their interpretation can't be the only correct one, because it should all depend on the doctrines of the church as to how the translation/interpretations read?
TWI is making the case into one of church doctrine, which is why the argument to throw out the case is valid. if they focus on the issue of copyright infringement (which is properly heard in federal court), all James has to do is demonstrate that the similar/identical passages are most likely to be translated the way they are by various scholars or to find an older source out of copyright that does translate that way, and the court rules for him.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
Potato - you have it backwards - James' organization is making the case into one of church doctrine. He can correct me if I'm wrong, but what he seems to be saying is that because the HRV that he wrote is essentially the doctrine of his religious organization, that it supersedes anyone's claim to copyright under the first amendment of the constitution.
TWI is treating this as a simple copyright violation and that Mr. Trimm plagiarized a good portion of its Aramaic NT for his HRV.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
potato
yes, I get that James' organization is making it into a case of church doctrine, and after analysis, I think he has a point. it's a translation of scripture, not a creative work like a novel. churches use a lot of the same language and hold beliefs in common that permeate religious life. it follows that any translation is going to end up infused with it and two groups translating the same texts should have similarities, and in the case of religious texts I'd expect strong similarities, unless their goal is to create a new version that goes beyond a translation into a dogmatic interpretation.
I got that. if he didn't plagiarize, he can prove it to the court. I just see a lot of irony that an organization like TWI that believes there's only one right way to interpret scripture is claiming ownership of a translation. now anyone else who translates the texts and comes up with something too similar has infringed copyright and must invent a new version, which guarantees TWI can point fingers and ridicule the less perfect version as inferior because TWI got it right but no one else can.
like I said, I could ask 10 educated german speakers to translate "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" and see what comes back.
p.s. I think TWI is stupid.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
I would ask 10 educated Germans to translate that and see what came back.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
potato
maybe I will!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
James Trimm
And at the ninth hour, Yeshua cried with a loud voice, and said: My
El, My El, why have you forsaken Me?
(Matt. 27:46 HRV)
A Footnote reads:
Psalm 22:2(22:1); The Hebrew of DuTillet has "forgotten" see Psalm
42:10(42:9) Shem Tob and Quinquarbos have ”forsaken me” in agreement
with Ps. 22:2(22:1). Munster and the Aramaic (Old Syriac and Pedangta)
has ”forsaken me”. Most Greek and Latin manuscripts have SABACHTHANI
(a transliteration) however Greek Codex D and the Old Latin have
“Zapthani”. See also note to Mark 15:34.
The Parallel passage in Mark 15:34 has:
And in the ninth hour, Yeshua cried out with a loud voice and said:
<El, El l’mana sh’vaktani, which is,> My Eloah, My Eloah, why have You
forsaken Me?
(Mark 14:34 HRV)
A Footnote reads:
Obviously quoting Ps. 22:1 (22:2). The Aramaic phrase l’mana sh’
vaktani could also be understood as “for this you have kept me”. See
note to Mt. 27:46.
(In the HRV <> indicate passages which appear in the Pedangta but not
in the older Old Syriac Version)
Regarding the Holocaust, I am aware of TWI's past issues, and it is an
issue near and dear to my heart. My children's grandmother (who
recently passed away) was a Holocaust survivor. WNAE is the Worldwide
Nazarene Assembly of Elohim. We are a "Messianic Jewish" group seeking
to restore the ancient sect of the Nazarenes as mentioned by the so-
called "Church Fathers". The first believers in Yeshua were a Jewish sect known as "Nazarenes"
or in Hebrew "Netzarim" (Acts 24:5).
The "church father" Jerome (4th Cent.) described these Nazarenes as
those "...who accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to
observe the old Law." (Jerome; On. Is. 8:14).
Elsewhere he writes:
Today there still exists among the Jews in all the synagogues of the
East a heresy which is called that of the Minæans,and which is still
condemned by the Pharisees; [its followers] are ordinarily called
'Nazarenes'; they believe that Messiah, the son of God, was born of
the Virgin Miriam, and they hold him to be the one who suffered under
Pontius Pilate and ascended to heaven, and in whom we also believe."
(Jerome; Letter 75 Jerome to Augustine)
The fourth century "church father" Epiphanius gives a more detailed
description:
But these sectarians... did not call themselves Christians--but
"Nazarenes," ... However they are simply complete Jews. They use not
only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews
do... They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as
the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion-- except for their
belief in Messiah, if you please! For they acknowledge both the
resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and
declare that G-d is one, and that his son is Yeshua the Messiah. They
are trained to a nicety in Hebrew. For among them the entire Law, the
Prophets, and the... Writings... are read in Hebrew, as they surely
are by the Jews. They are different from the Jews, and different from
Christians, only in the following. They disagree with Jews because
they have come to faith in Messiah; but since they are still fettered
by the Law--circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest-- they are not in
accord with Christians.... they are nothing but Jews.... They have the
Goodnews according to Matthew in its entirety in Hebrew. For it is
clear that they still preserve this, in the Hebrew alphabet, as it was
originally written. (Epiphanius; Panarion 29)
We maintain that Yeshua came to be the Jewish Messiah of Judaism rather then to create a new religion.
Ironically Nazarene Judaism is/was also known as "The Way".
Acts 24:5 reads:
"For we have found this man to be one who is corrupt and stirs up
sedition among all the Jews in all Ha-Eretz (The Land). For he is a
leader of the teaching of the Nazarenes."
(Acts 24:5 ? HRV from the Aramaic Pedangta)
The Greek has "sect" in pace of "teaching".
Then in Acts 24:14 Paul responds to this accusation saying:
"…this I do confess, that in the same teaching about which they are
speaking, I serve [Elohim]?"
(Acts 24:14 ? HRV from the Aramaic Pedangta)
Now while book of Acts was originally written in Aramaic, the only
surviving witness to that original Aramaic text in Aramaic is the
Pedangta (and a few quotations by Syriac "Church Fathers") the more
primitive Old Syriac Aramaic text of Acts has not survived.
We do have indirect witnesses to that text through the Western type
text of Acts preserved in the Western Type Greek manuscripts, and in
the Old Latin. While the Greek is not the original language of Acts,
it can preserve original readings not preserved in the Pedangta, in
much the same way that the LXX can sometimes preserve original
readings which have not survived in the Masoretic Text. In this case
the word "The Way" (a single word in Aramaic) has been omitted from
the Aramaic Pedangta version of Acts, but it is almost certainly
original, since it appears in all other versions of Acts.
The Original Aramaic of Acts most probably read:
"…this I do confess, in this Way, the teaching about which they are
speaking, I serve [Elohim]?"
(Acts 24:14 as it must have read in the original Aramaic)
Here it is clearly stated by Paul that "The Way" is a synonym for "The
Teaching/Sect of the Nazarenes".
So if we can better understand how "The Way" is used, we will better
understand how the term "Nazarenes" was understood.
The term "The Way" is used to describe believers in Acts 9:2 and Acts
22:4 (which actually recaps the events of Acts 9:2).
Both the Qumran community, and John quoted Is. 40:3 as being a
prophecy foretelling of their work (Mt. 3:3; Mk. 1:3; Lk. 3:4; Jn
1:23; Dam. Doc. viii, 12-14; ix, 20). This verse appears in most New
Testaments as:
The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
"Prepare the way of the Lord;
make straight in the desert a highway for our God."
However, the cantor markings in the Masoretic Text give us the
understanding:
The voice of one crying
"In the wilderness prepare the way of YHWH;
make straight in the desert a highway for our Elohim."
As a result of their use of this verse, both John and the Essenes of
the Qumran community referred to themselves as being "in the
wilderness" and both the Essene Qumran community and the early
believers in Yeshua called their movement "The Way". (Mt. 3:3; Mk.
1:3; Lk. 3:4; Jn 1:23; Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14 compared to Manual of
Discipline viii, 12-14; ix, 17-22).
In Acts we read about Paul just before he became a believer in Messiah:
Now Shaul was yet full of the threat and anger of murder
against the talmidim of our Adon. And he asked for letters
from the Chief Cohen to give to Darm'suk (Damascus)
to the synagogues, that if he should find any who follow in
this way, men or women, he might bind and bring them
to Yerushalayim.
(Acts 9:1-2)
Now why would Shaul want to go to Damascus to pursue the followers of
Yeshua?
Damascus was the capitol of Essene Judaism as laid out in the
"Damascus Document" found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. The first
Essenes "...went out of the land of Judah and dwelt in the land of
Damascus..." (Damascus Document 6, 5)
As we have demonstrated so many times before (and this is a whole
separate article) the first followers of Yeshua were from the Essenes.
Now while on his way to Damascus Paul encounters the resurrected
Yeshua and himself becomes a believer in Yeshua as the Messiah (Acts
9:3-7). As instructed by Yeshua, Paul enters Damascus and makes
contact with the followers of Yeshua there (Acts 9:8-19). In his
letter to the Galatians Paul describes these events as follows:
And I did not go to Yerushaliyim to the emissaries who
were before me, but I went to Arabia and again returned
to Darm'suk (Damascus), and after three years, I went
to Yerushalayim to seek Kefa and remained with him
fifteen days.
(Gal. 1:17-18)
Why did Paul remain for three years in Damascus? Because it took
three years to be fully admitted into the Essene community. As
Josephus writes:
"But now if any one has a mind to come over to their sect, he is not
immediately admitted, but he is prescribed the same method of living
which they use for a year, while he continues excluded'; and they give
him also a small hatchet, and the fore-mentioned girdle, and the white
garment. And when he has given evidence, during that time, that he can
observe their continence, he approaches nearer to their way of living,
and is made a partaker of the waters of purification; yet is he not
even now admitted to live with them; for after this demonstration of
his fortitude, his temper is tried two more years; and if he appear to
be worthy, they then admit him into their society."
(Wars 2:8:7)
Paul went through the entire process of learning the ins and outs of
Essene Judaism. These studies also shaped Paul's thinking. There are
several Parallels between Paul's teachings and the Essene teachings at
Qumran.
The important point I want to make here is that the term "The Way" was
originally a euphemism for Essene Judaism and became a euphemism for
Nazarene Judaism as an offshoot of Essene Judaism. Thus "Nazarene" is
clearly a designation of a Jewish sect, just as the Essenes, Pharisees
and Sadducees were also Jewish sects.
It is important to realize that the term “The Way” is drawn from the Torah itself, in which “The Way” is clearly identified as being the Torah and the commandments.
And YHWH said unto me: Arise, get you down quickly from hence, for your people
that you have brought forth out of Egypt have dealt corruptly. They are quickly turned
aside out of THE WAY which I commanded them: they have made them a molten image.
(Deut. 9:12)
For if you shall diligently keep all this commandment which I command you, to do it,
to love YHWH your Elohim, to walk in all HIS WAYS and to cleave unto Him,
Then will YHWH drive out all these nations from before you, and you shall
dispossess nations greater and mightier than yourselves.
Every place whereon the sole of your foot shall tread, shall be yours: from the
wilderness and the L’vanon, from the river--the river Euphrates--even unto the hinder sea
shall be your border.
There shall no man be able to stand against you. YHWH your Elohim shall lay the
fear of you and the dread of you, upon all the land that you shall tread upon, as He has
spoken unto you.
Behold, I set before you this day, a blessing and a curse:
he blessing, if you shall hearken unto the commandments of YHWH your Elohim,
which I command you this day.
And the curse, if you shall not hearken unto the commandments of YHWH your
Elohim, but turn aside out of THE WAY which I command you this day, to go after other
gods, which you have not known.
(Deut. 11:22-28)
See, I have set before you this day, life and good, and death and evil,
In that I command you this day to love YHWH your Elohim, to walk in His WAYS,
and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His ordinances; then you shall live
and multiply. And YHWH your Elohim shall bless you, in the land where you go in to
possess it.
(Deut. 30:15-16)
Scripture also tells us that Messiah himself is “The Way” (Jn. 14:6).
To begin with we must understand that this Assembly is also known as the "Body of Messiah" as we read:
"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the
preeminence."
(Col. 1:18 - KJV)
"And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head
over all things to the church,
Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all."
(Eph. 1:22-23 - KJV)
Now one may ask what "Assembly" is the allegorical Messiah? To find the answer to that question lets look at Matthew 2:14-15:
"When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and
departed into Egypt:
And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled
which was spoken of the Lord
by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. "
(Matthew 2:14-15 - KJV)
Now here Matthew is citing a prophecy in Hosea 11:1 and applying it to Messiah. Now let us go back and look at this prophecy in Hosea 11:1 in context:
"When Israel was a child, then I loved him,
and called my son out of Egypt."
(Hosea 11:1 - KJV)
Here Hosea is referring to Israel as the son who is called out of Egypt. This points us back to a passage in the Torah:
"And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go,
behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn."
(Ex. 4:22-23 - KJV)
From these two passages we learn that Israel is the firstborn son of Elohim who is called out of Egypt. However in Matthew it is Yeshua the Messiah who is called up out of Egypt and in Col. 1:18 Messiah is the "firstborn". Moreover Hebrews speaks of the "church of the firstborn" (Heb. 12:23 - KJV).
Thus Israel is allegorically equivalent to the Messiah. Messiah is “The Way” and His true Assembly, the Assembly of Israel, is also “The Way”.
The Way in the Scriptures is a Torah Observant sect of Judaism known as “Nazarene” with roots in Essene Judaism.
Ironically also the Aramaic (Syriac) New Testament is originally a Nazarene Jewish document. Eusebius writes of The second century Nazarene writer Gish’fa (Heggissipus) him:
And he quotes some passages from The Gospel according to
the Hebrews and from ‘The Syriac’, and some particulars from
the Hebrew tongue, showing that he was … from the Hebrews,
and he mentions other matters as taken from the oral tradition
of the Jews.”
(Eccl. Hist. 4:22)
As for the court case I will just say that at the moment, in the interest of peacemaking we have high hopes of working out something mutually acceptable with TWI. So while we do have a case to make (concerning the HRV), I will not make it here at this time while that hope is alive.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
potato
then I'll make a t-shirt out of it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
The irony is delicious. That doesn't make the argument (on Trimm's part) any less weak. His argument would be stronger (IMO) if he could pull a translation that predates TWI's and run a similarity test on it and thereby bypass the TWI thing altogether. My gut feeling is that it wouldn't pass, which is why he's playing the doctrine/first amendment card.
On a different note - i can't help but wonder where we would all be if BG Leonard and others had as vigorously defended their intellectual property?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Put me down for an order of three. 1 - XXl 1 - Medium 1 - Child size----lol! That way my whole family can wear it!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
penworks
Maybe I've misunderstood a few things here (wouldn't be the first time). I thought your Bible was a translation from the Aramaic (the P-e-s-h-i-t-t-a). If so, how come you put your translation for the Aramaic in footnotes?
Edited by penworksLink to comment
Share on other sites
James Trimm
Matthew and Hebrews in the HRV are primarily translated from old Hebrew manuscripts of Matthew with Aramaic noted in footnotes.
The Aramaic of the Four Gospels is partly taken from the P-S-H-I-T-T-A.
The extra-Pedangta books of 2Peter, 2Jn, 3Jn and Jude are taken from Greek (for lack of authoritative Aramaic)
The extra-Pedangta book of Revelation is taken from the Crawford Aramaic text.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
penworks
Thank you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
You know, I could understand if James Trimm had plagiarized one of the way international's garbage publications such as the collaterals, are the dead alive now, etc. But to go after someone for coming up with a new version? That one has me baffled. I would think a work of this nature would only serve to help add insight and understanding to the bible by having another Hebrew / Aramaic based text to use for reference. How low, how very low.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
The thing is,
if his version is plagiarized from THEIR book(s), then they have a legal basis for a
complaint (violation of their legal rights under copyright law), and are entitled
to their day in court, and judgment in their favor.
Whether or not his version is plagiarized from their book(s) is a matter for the
court(s) to determine.
From a Christian standpoint, it would be better if they went directly to him and
tried to get satisfaction from him first. I do not know if they attempted this.
From a legal standpoint, that is not required beyond possibly issuing a
cease-and-desist letter. It should be no surprise IF the way international
handled this solely as a legal matter, and ignored how the Bible says to treat
other Christians- they abuse their OWN Christians and are unlikely to treat
outsider Christians with the respect Christians usually accord one another
at this time.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Good points. I was basing my views on a "furtherance of the gospel" perspective. But we all know that the way international isn't really about that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
James probably thought the same thing. He seems to be genuinely surprised by this turn of events. If it were me, I'd probably point people to TWI's book and then publish a commentary to point out deviations from his theology. But then there's that pesky problem of TWI's reluctance to sell its products to non-way people.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.