Do tell more about the College Program, HighWay. It'd finished before I got seriously interested in TWI. Sounds like you had a really nice time, if you were free to take a job, and could come and go as you wished. Was it just for a year? How else did it differ from being in rez as Corps?
And then you did go Corps...did you think it was going to be just the same? (Though by the time you did that, things might have moved on in intensity at HQ or wherever you were based.)
Wow you did have a time.:). That does not sound to bad at all and it sounds like you enjoyed it.. See that is how much we new what the College Div was doing? Maybe the College was THE place to get ingrained on twi stuff if you wanted to know more besides the pfal - advanced class. To bad you had to go corps and get waxed. Corps really was a screwed up thing and not for the faint of heart. Maybe it was for the faint of heart since you got kicked out earlier.
Anyway, by the end of the year, it became clear that many way corps thought of us in the "shoulda gone corps but weren't man enough" category... almost as if we were cop-outs, not giving our best to God and daVurd. Funny, it was okay to take a year and go WOW and then be done, but not to take a year and go College Division and then go back to your life...
It also became obvious that many higher-ups in TWI considered the College Division to be just another corps-feeder program like WOW was... even though both were publically promoted as being for individual growth.
Highway: I often came away wondering what the heck it was we had just been exposed to and why!? LOL!!!
As a corps grad on staff at Emporia, watching what they were doing with the corps, I started wondering the same thing!
I looked at you guys and thought you were great. I often thought you guys were smarter than the average corps bear and I often thought most corps really should have been college division.
I think if TWI had pushed that, instead of corps, the ministry might still be around today doing well.
You guys were allowed to come and go, no one keeping tabs, had the same classes the corps did - just a much freer lifestyle. There were some wonderful college division.
I did both. I was College Division 75-76, the first year of the program. We were definitely looked upon as second class citizens. The truth is, pretty much everything revolved around the Way Corps at Emporia. Sometimes and often it was as if we weren't even there to a lot of people. Most of what was said from the front was addressed to the Corps. Of course, that doesn't apply to everyone who was in The Corps. There were also some wonderful people in the Corps who were very loving.
I entered the College Division right out of high school. It was my first experience being away from home and away from everything that was familiar. I was scared to the point of being sick by the time I arrived. Most of the other CD folks were older and a few of the older guys took me under their wing and sort of made me their younger brother. When I say "older", I mean guys at the ripe old age of 22 or 24.
I learned a little bit about who I was and the next year I went to a secular college, Ohio University to be exact. I'm not sure I would have made it if it hadn't been for my experience in the College Division. I learned how to study and how to stick with things when I may not be doing well. Also, believe it or not Don Wierwille was very encouraging at that time and very much believed in the value of a higher education from a secular college.
That was the good part of College Division. It was also a tough year in a lot of ways. There was a lot of marital infidelity as well as sexual promiscuity. I had a hard time handling that as a young kid. What bothered me even more is that nothing was said from the leadership condemning this behavior. Now I understand why, but I didn't then. It was also in the College Division that I started to embrace a lot of TWI legalism and one-sided views of life. That was damaging.
After graduating from college I went into The Corps myself. As far as how I viewed the College Division, I thought well of them being an alumni myself. There seemed to be a low level of resentment among some CD toward CD alums that went Corps, as if we were traitors or something. Again, that was with just a few. Most people were nice.
As far as the Corps itself, I wish I'd never gone in. I didn't really learn anything of use and just became more of a company man. I was perfectly free to pursue secular goals, but my thinking was more along the lines of promoting the ministry so I did nothing to develop myself professionally. By the time I got out of TWI my degree was pretty much outdated. Worse, though out of TWI, my worldview was such that it didn't mix well in the marketplace.
I know some people who left TWI and went on to be successful at other endeavors, so I don't blame TWI for my own failures. TWI was a major contributor to my diseased and ineffective thinking, however.
Highway: I often came away wondering what the heck it was we had just been exposed to and why!? LOL!!!
As a corps grad on staff at Emporia, watching what they were doing with the corps, I started wondering the same thing!
I looked at you guys and thought you were great. I often thought you guys were smarter than the average corps bear and I often thought most corps really should have been college division.
I think if TWI had pushed that, instead of corps, the ministry might still be around today doing well.
You guys were allowed to come and go, no one keeping tabs, had the same classes the corps did - just a much freer lifestyle. There were some wonderful college division.
Yeah......the college division should have been the MAJOR thrust at the Emporia campus.
IMO....it's obvious that the corps training program flopped. Wierwille didn't have the credentials or skills to teach the proper ethics and protocols to those aspiring to lead and minister to God's people. On so many levels, the corps program was a dismal failure. Men like Rev. R0ss Tr@cy could have taught great truths of ministering to others, but the wierwille-cloning took precedent.
Men like Rev. R0ss Tr@cy could have taught great truths of ministering to others, but the wierwille-cloning took precedent.
Uuugh.
Absolutely true. He was truly a gem that was rarely allowed to do much.
As far as the College Division curriculum though, the only courses that were really worth a "hoot" imo were Old and New Testament History. Another good class was Leadership Principles of Jesus Christ because that was one of the rare times one got a long look at the gospels in TWI. Practical Management, I thought, was of value. It was the first time in my young life I learned about setting goals and managing one's time. Early Church History had potential unfortunately TWI used it to show how superior they were. "Keys to Research" just plain sucked, at least my year. Everything else was PFAL series, hardly college level. I can't speak to the 2nd year curriculum.
No reports, as I recall. Very few reading assignments unless it was one of the collaterals. Almost no interaction with the faculty, many of which had no idea what they were talking about anyway. Seriously. We did have tests and exams. They were often prepared by people who had no educational background, and therefore really didn't know how to prepare college-level exams much less how to really educate.
Actually, one of the things I really enjoyed was the variety of teachers we had...
For those who don't know the College Division was set up so that we studied one subject at a time, for 1-3 weeks, and they brought in 1-2 instructors specifically to teach that subject. --- I still have my curriculum list somewhere and I'll try to post it here just as an fyi.
Yes, a lot of the subjects were straight out of the collaterals but a lot of them were actually pretty decent. I distinctly remember figures of speech, one god, and old testament history (which we had with the corps... fantastic class!!). Oh, and early church history wasn't half bad either. But I think a lot of that depended on who was teaching the subject your year.
Homework was usually reading, being ready to discuss, writing short papers, taking tests/quizzes, putting on skits... that sort of thing. There was never any kind of long research paper involved.
I must say, it is really nice to read some of the kind comments here regarding this program... I spent decades almost being embarrassed that I was a red-tagger among my fellow corps. And yes, looking back I think that elitism was actively built into the corps program by the leadership.
Also, looking back it seems obvious to me now that Vic et al only wanted the College program for the legitimacy it might bring to twi in the public eye. If they could have managed to get it accredited you can bet it would have been touted as a big feather in Vic's cap!! But it wasn't and therefore it was allowed to die off...
I must say, it is really nice to read some of the kind comments here regarding this program... I spent decades almost being embarrassed that I was a red-tagger among my fellow corps. And yes, looking back I think that elitism was actively built into the corps program by the leadership.
Also, looking back it seems obvious to me now that Vic et al only wanted the College program for the legitimacy it might bring to twi in the public eye. If they could have managed to get it accredited you can bet it would have been touted as a big feather in Vic's cap!! But it wasn't and therefore it was allowed to die off...
In 1978, my first year inrez.....I really liked inter-mingling with the red-taggers. It was like they had ready access to classes, part-time jobs, local fellowships, community involvement and goals for further education after their emporia experience. You guys were a breath of fresh air......from the droning and cloning of corps.
And yeah.....twi leadership fostered the elitism into the corps program.
I've said this several times before on GS, but I believe those 1977-1981 years.....IF TRUE, GODLY VALUES AND PRINCIPLES WOULD HAVE BEEN ADHERED TO......twi could have advanced far and wide, economically and professionally (and spiritually) if the hearts of God-inspired believers had been allowed to flourish.
The trusttees, invariably, were walking in darkness......and today, twi is barren.
I know. You guys actually had an even tougher curriculum than the Corps and got zero recognition and credit for anything. Sorry.
Oh, I don't think our academic curriculum was tough. Truth be told, it was disappointingly anemic. That's always been one of the things that has irritated me about it. We were told we would be doing an in-depth study of Acts. Instead, we lived in a stinkin' commune and learned how to make our own mayonnaise and Mung Bean sprouts..... two skills not likely to have been coveted in the first century church.
Oh, I don't think our academic curriculum was tough. Truth be told, it was disappointingly anemic. That's always been one of the things that has irritated me about it. We were told we would be doing an in-depth study of Acts. Instead, we lived in a stinkin' commune and learned how to make our own mayonnaise and Mung Bean sprouts..... two skills not likely to have been coveted in the first century church.
I wasn't talking so much about the academic part. I'm talking about all the activities you did on top of having full time jobs. I NEVER had a desire to go into FLO.
I bet that most of it was based on material from Bullinger, Kenyon, Ruben Archer Torrey(from Moody Bible Institute), Lamsa, Erricco, Cliffe, James Freeman, George William Mackie, Pilai, Dale Carnegie, Lester Sumrall, Dennis Bennett, Oral Roberts, and Billy Graham.
I bet that most of it was based on material from Bullinger, Kenyon, Ruben Archer Torrey(from Moody Bible Institute), Lamsa, Erricco, Cliffe, James Freeman, George William Mackie, Pilai, Dale Carnegie, Lester Sumrall, Dennis Bennett, Oral Roberts, and Billy Graham.
Do you mean the College Division program, or Fellow Laborers of Ohio? I'm familiar with some of the men you mentioned like Lamsa and Pillai and of course, Bullinger. There was a course on Figures and Pillai was discussed often. Carnegie...public speaking, of course, Lamsa with the "Eli Eli...." thing. I don't remember anything from Billy Graham and just a little from Oral Roberts.
A lot of things that were taught, at least the year I was there, were pretty basic and straigtforward. It didn't take a seasoned theologian to teach it. What comes to mind is Old Testament History, Early Church History, New Testament History (not Rise & Expansion), Leadership Principles of Jesus Christ which was pretty much a basic reading of the Gospels. I think the year I was there, which was the very first year, their thinking was to teach to the level of someone who knew nothing of the Bible. So they kept things pretty basic which for me was good. I had had "the class", but I hadn't read much of the Old or New Testament records. I never understood how the Old and New Testaments fit together. Of course, the PFAL series was taught pretty heavily and that's where the people you mentioned come in.
I obtained a pretty good feel for the major points in different books in the Bible and learned where to look for certain records. Pretty basic really, yet stuff I still draw on to this day.
A lot of things that were taught, at least the year I was there, were pretty basic and straigtforward. It didn't take a seasoned theologian to teach it. I think ... their thinking was to teach to the level of someone who knew nothing of the Bible. So they kept things pretty basic which for me was good. I had had "the class", but I hadn't read much of the Old or New Testament records. I never understood how the Old and New Testaments fit together. Of course, the PFAL series was taught pretty heavily and that's where the people you mentioned come in.
This pretty much sums up my experience as well... I was a newbie and much of what they covered (beyond the class, of course) I had never been exposed to before... in fact, my first time sitting through the Advanced class was that year on campus...
When I was a "Red Tagger" (1980-81) they were still trying to figure out the College Division's role in the ministry. There was a lot of elitism on BOTH sides, with each being like competing elements. In addition to some Corps viewing the CD as second class citizens, there were also some CD's who viewed it as a unique program, to the extent that when former CD's went into the Corps they were thought of as a disappointment, if not outright traitors.
But by the end of my year and throughout the following few years, the promotion for the CD was presented as being training for the Secular Arm of the ministry, being complementary to the Spiritual Arm, which was the Corps leadership. The Spiritual and Secular elements were supposed to be two sides which worked together, each in a different capacity. Sounded good anyway.
But then a few years later they canned all of that, and renamed the College Division as the College Program. It would henceforth be a place to study the Bible in depth - nothing more, nothing less. It was essentially an expansion of the old Summer School program they used to have at HQ in the late 60s and early 70s. As much as I liked the idea of the Spiritual and Secular arms of the ministry, the fact was that very little of what I learned really prepared me for that. It really was just a place to learn the Bible. But I had been trying to build my identity on the idea of being a "Spirit filled leader in the secular realm" (even wrote a song about it!) and now all that was declared to be bunk. This was the beginning of my dissatisfaction with the Ministry.
Still, I made some good friends (sadly almost none of them are still in touch since the big split) and I did learn some good things (although much of it turned out to be wrong), but I have mostly fond memories of that time in my life.
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Twinky
Do tell more about the College Program, HighWay. It'd finished before I got seriously interested in TWI. Sounds like you had a really nice time, if you were free to take a job, and could come and go as you wished. Was it just for a year? How else did it differ from being in rez as Corps?
And then you did go Corps...did you think it was going to be just the same? (Though by the time you did that, things might have moved on in intensity at HQ or wherever you were based.)
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justloafing
Wow you did have a time.:). That does not sound to bad at all and it sounds like you enjoyed it.. See that is how much we new what the College Div was doing? Maybe the College was THE place to get ingrained on twi stuff if you wanted to know more besides the pfal - advanced class. To bad you had to go corps and get waxed. Corps really was a screwed up thing and not for the faint of heart. Maybe it was for the faint of heart since you got kicked out earlier.
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waysider
The same could be said for Fellow Laborers.
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Sunesis
Highway: I often came away wondering what the heck it was we had just been exposed to and why!? LOL!!!
As a corps grad on staff at Emporia, watching what they were doing with the corps, I started wondering the same thing!
I looked at you guys and thought you were great. I often thought you guys were smarter than the average corps bear and I often thought most corps really should have been college division.
I think if TWI had pushed that, instead of corps, the ministry might still be around today doing well.
You guys were allowed to come and go, no one keeping tabs, had the same classes the corps did - just a much freer lifestyle. There were some wonderful college division.
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Broken Arrow
I did both. I was College Division 75-76, the first year of the program. We were definitely looked upon as second class citizens. The truth is, pretty much everything revolved around the Way Corps at Emporia. Sometimes and often it was as if we weren't even there to a lot of people. Most of what was said from the front was addressed to the Corps. Of course, that doesn't apply to everyone who was in The Corps. There were also some wonderful people in the Corps who were very loving.
I entered the College Division right out of high school. It was my first experience being away from home and away from everything that was familiar. I was scared to the point of being sick by the time I arrived. Most of the other CD folks were older and a few of the older guys took me under their wing and sort of made me their younger brother. When I say "older", I mean guys at the ripe old age of 22 or 24.
I learned a little bit about who I was and the next year I went to a secular college, Ohio University to be exact. I'm not sure I would have made it if it hadn't been for my experience in the College Division. I learned how to study and how to stick with things when I may not be doing well. Also, believe it or not Don Wierwille was very encouraging at that time and very much believed in the value of a higher education from a secular college.
That was the good part of College Division. It was also a tough year in a lot of ways. There was a lot of marital infidelity as well as sexual promiscuity. I had a hard time handling that as a young kid. What bothered me even more is that nothing was said from the leadership condemning this behavior. Now I understand why, but I didn't then. It was also in the College Division that I started to embrace a lot of TWI legalism and one-sided views of life. That was damaging.
After graduating from college I went into The Corps myself. As far as how I viewed the College Division, I thought well of them being an alumni myself. There seemed to be a low level of resentment among some CD toward CD alums that went Corps, as if we were traitors or something. Again, that was with just a few. Most people were nice.
As far as the Corps itself, I wish I'd never gone in. I didn't really learn anything of use and just became more of a company man. I was perfectly free to pursue secular goals, but my thinking was more along the lines of promoting the ministry so I did nothing to develop myself professionally. By the time I got out of TWI my degree was pretty much outdated. Worse, though out of TWI, my worldview was such that it didn't mix well in the marketplace.
I know some people who left TWI and went on to be successful at other endeavors, so I don't blame TWI for my own failures. TWI was a major contributor to my diseased and ineffective thinking, however.
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GrouchoMarxJr
My experience at Emporia in the 10th corps was that college divion people were
spineless cowards who didn't have the nards to go into the corps...
Oh sure, we tried to be polite...but c'mon now, our nametags were green and yours
weren't. We practiced our false humility on you guys so at times it seemed like we
were all "equals"...ha ha ha...no chance exlax, we were corps!...
...As I think back, it almost seems like Wierwille deliberatly set things up to cause
shism, ego trips,ladder climbing,brow beating, arse kissing and back stabbing.
Wierwille was to Christianity what Jeffery Dahmer was to fine dining.
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Broken Arrow
That last line is funny. Really, I think the CD was more Don's vision that VP's. Just an opinion.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I believe you are correct...Don W. was the main catalyst behind the college division.
Maybe that's the reason why they were so denigrated...This didn't come from VP or Craig.
This came from the "secular son" of Vic...the college boy...the guy who actually earned
his phd, unlike his father who hustled it through a degree mill.
In my opinion, the lizard mentality of Martindale viewed the college division as an easy
target for his mighty corps to use for the purpose of feeling superior.
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skyrider
Yeah......the college division should have been the MAJOR thrust at the Emporia campus.
IMO....it's obvious that the corps training program flopped. Wierwille didn't have the credentials or skills to teach the proper ethics and protocols to those aspiring to lead and minister to God's people. On so many levels, the corps program was a dismal failure. Men like Rev. R0ss Tr@cy could have taught great truths of ministering to others, but the wierwille-cloning took precedent.
Uuugh.
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Broken Arrow
Absolutely true. He was truly a gem that was rarely allowed to do much.
As far as the College Division curriculum though, the only courses that were really worth a "hoot" imo were Old and New Testament History. Another good class was Leadership Principles of Jesus Christ because that was one of the rare times one got a long look at the gospels in TWI. Practical Management, I thought, was of value. It was the first time in my young life I learned about setting goals and managing one's time. Early Church History had potential unfortunately TWI used it to show how superior they were. "Keys to Research" just plain sucked, at least my year. Everything else was PFAL series, hardly college level. I can't speak to the 2nd year curriculum.
No reports, as I recall. Very few reading assignments unless it was one of the collaterals. Almost no interaction with the faculty, many of which had no idea what they were talking about anyway. Seriously. We did have tests and exams. They were often prepared by people who had no educational background, and therefore really didn't know how to prepare college-level exams much less how to really educate.
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TheHighWay
Actually, one of the things I really enjoyed was the variety of teachers we had...
For those who don't know the College Division was set up so that we studied one subject at a time, for 1-3 weeks, and they brought in 1-2 instructors specifically to teach that subject. --- I still have my curriculum list somewhere and I'll try to post it here just as an fyi.
Yes, a lot of the subjects were straight out of the collaterals but a lot of them were actually pretty decent. I distinctly remember figures of speech, one god, and old testament history (which we had with the corps... fantastic class!!). Oh, and early church history wasn't half bad either. But I think a lot of that depended on who was teaching the subject your year.
Homework was usually reading, being ready to discuss, writing short papers, taking tests/quizzes, putting on skits... that sort of thing. There was never any kind of long research paper involved.
I must say, it is really nice to read some of the kind comments here regarding this program... I spent decades almost being embarrassed that I was a red-tagger among my fellow corps. And yes, looking back I think that elitism was actively built into the corps program by the leadership.
Also, looking back it seems obvious to me now that Vic et al only wanted the College program for the legitimacy it might bring to twi in the public eye. If they could have managed to get it accredited you can bet it would have been touted as a big feather in Vic's cap!! But it wasn't and therefore it was allowed to die off...
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skyrider
In 1978, my first year inrez.....I really liked inter-mingling with the red-taggers. It was like they had ready access to classes, part-time jobs, local fellowships, community involvement and goals for further education after their emporia experience. You guys were a breath of fresh air......from the droning and cloning of corps.
And yeah.....twi leadership fostered the elitism into the corps program.
I've said this several times before on GS, but I believe those 1977-1981 years.....IF TRUE, GODLY VALUES AND PRINCIPLES WOULD HAVE BEEN ADHERED TO......twi could have advanced far and wide, economically and professionally (and spiritually) if the hearts of God-inspired believers had been allowed to flourish.
The trusttees, invariably, were walking in darkness......and today, twi is barren.
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waysider
Red-Taggers???
Fellow Laborers were looked upon as being Rag-Taggers. :(
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Broken Arrow
I know. You guys actually had an even tougher curriculum than the Corps and got zero recognition and credit for anything. Sorry.
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waysider
Oh, I don't think our academic curriculum was tough. Truth be told, it was disappointingly anemic. That's always been one of the things that has irritated me about it. We were told we would be doing an in-depth study of Acts. Instead, we lived in a stinkin' commune and learned how to make our own mayonnaise and Mung Bean sprouts..... two skills not likely to have been coveted in the first century church.
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Broken Arrow
I wasn't talking so much about the academic part. I'm talking about all the activities you did on top of having full time jobs. I NEVER had a desire to go into FLO.
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excathedra
well they just were not committed enough
now i'll read the thread
or maybe later since i have to go
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
I bet that most of it was based on material from Bullinger, Kenyon, Ruben Archer Torrey(from Moody Bible Institute), Lamsa, Erricco, Cliffe, James Freeman, George William Mackie, Pilai, Dale Carnegie, Lester Sumrall, Dennis Bennett, Oral Roberts, and Billy Graham.
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Broken Arrow
Do you mean the College Division program, or Fellow Laborers of Ohio? I'm familiar with some of the men you mentioned like Lamsa and Pillai and of course, Bullinger. There was a course on Figures and Pillai was discussed often. Carnegie...public speaking, of course, Lamsa with the "Eli Eli...." thing. I don't remember anything from Billy Graham and just a little from Oral Roberts.
A lot of things that were taught, at least the year I was there, were pretty basic and straigtforward. It didn't take a seasoned theologian to teach it. What comes to mind is Old Testament History, Early Church History, New Testament History (not Rise & Expansion), Leadership Principles of Jesus Christ which was pretty much a basic reading of the Gospels. I think the year I was there, which was the very first year, their thinking was to teach to the level of someone who knew nothing of the Bible. So they kept things pretty basic which for me was good. I had had "the class", but I hadn't read much of the Old or New Testament records. I never understood how the Old and New Testaments fit together. Of course, the PFAL series was taught pretty heavily and that's where the people you mentioned come in.
I obtained a pretty good feel for the major points in different books in the Bible and learned where to look for certain records. Pretty basic really, yet stuff I still draw on to this day.
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TheHighWay
This pretty much sums up my experience as well... I was a newbie and much of what they covered (beyond the class, of course) I had never been exposed to before... in fact, my first time sitting through the Advanced class was that year on campus...
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Mark Clarke
When I was a "Red Tagger" (1980-81) they were still trying to figure out the College Division's role in the ministry. There was a lot of elitism on BOTH sides, with each being like competing elements. In addition to some Corps viewing the CD as second class citizens, there were also some CD's who viewed it as a unique program, to the extent that when former CD's went into the Corps they were thought of as a disappointment, if not outright traitors.
But by the end of my year and throughout the following few years, the promotion for the CD was presented as being training for the Secular Arm of the ministry, being complementary to the Spiritual Arm, which was the Corps leadership. The Spiritual and Secular elements were supposed to be two sides which worked together, each in a different capacity. Sounded good anyway.
But then a few years later they canned all of that, and renamed the College Division as the College Program. It would henceforth be a place to study the Bible in depth - nothing more, nothing less. It was essentially an expansion of the old Summer School program they used to have at HQ in the late 60s and early 70s. As much as I liked the idea of the Spiritual and Secular arms of the ministry, the fact was that very little of what I learned really prepared me for that. It really was just a place to learn the Bible. But I had been trying to build my identity on the idea of being a "Spirit filled leader in the secular realm" (even wrote a song about it!) and now all that was declared to be bunk. This was the beginning of my dissatisfaction with the Ministry.
Still, I made some good friends (sadly almost none of them are still in touch since the big split) and I did learn some good things (although much of it turned out to be wrong), but I have mostly fond memories of that time in my life.
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