PFAL

[ChattyKathy]

Well Mike will love it, he likes NOT being brief.

That puppy was loaded Howard! :)-->

[Jbarrax]

Thanks for not being brief HCW. I've been "lurking" on this thread for a while, not wanting to get dragged back into endless arguments with a confessed madman. You said just about everything that needs to be said to refute the demonic insanity that Mike spews.

Well done sir. Maybe we should just copy this post and paste is reply to everything Mike says until he goes away. :-D

Also, it's great to hear that other Christians are learning to speak in tongues. I have many issues with the heart and content of PFAL, but I think that learning to speak in tongues was an awesome blessing to all who finished it.

Peace

JerryB

[HCW]

Thanks Chatty & Jbarrax.

You know, as long as it was I forgot to add one thing I think is really cool.

While sitting through the Answers in Genesis thing a thought "dawned" on me.

Youknow how "everybody" in Christendon says "tomorrow isn't promised" to us?? You know they say you should say "Lord willing...." to everthing you say about what you wish to do "tomorrow" right?

Well. Tomorrow IS promised to us. God promised us tomorrow in many, many, many, many ways, that we ignore every day.

How about in Proverbs, "...length of days will I add to thee, " ...whatsoever he doeth shall prosper...."

Then there it is right there in Genesis, "his days shall be 120 years on the earth..."

We spend so much time looking for the complexity of God's word we zoom right past the simplest things that need no concordance, greek, hebrew, or anything.

People ARE right, however when you figure that the Thief, he who walketh about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.... HE IS the god of THIS world & he doesn't promise us tomorrow....

BTW Jerry. People in my church speak in tongues on a daily basis, these are people who have never heard of PFAL....

There. That one was brief. :)-->

[Ham]

HCW- well said in all. Well, if logic and appeal to common sense fail, maybe I could try some more Dr. Seuss stuff.. at least that gets some people's attention.

[ChattyKathy]

Guys, I think Mike needs to take a long weekend and I think he gets a bit whacko at times, but then I guess one could say the same of me. I know all may not care for this but I have nothing against Mike.

Howard, I do think you hit on excellent points but I will probably back out of this thread now and just read y'all.

[HCW]

I really don't have anything personal against Mike either; believe it or not.

In terms of PFAL there is a lot more that could be discussed about the class rather than whether or not its a replacement for the Bible.

[ChattyKathy]

I've not thrown it all out Howard. But it certainly is no replacement for the Bible. But that is a given for my thinking.

There are a variety of ways to meet up with that dude that tops 'em all. But I don't give the messenger more importance than the message (Jesus Christ).

And I think some folks get their alliance figure a tad out of whack. (not you! I am stating my observation in general)

[Ham]

Hey, I can go wacko too. I am usually harmless, just go off and do poetry.. one way of dealing with it, heh heh.

[ChattyKathy]

So like you're not one of those frustrated beatnik types are ya?

Was that suppose to be starving artist maybe?

[laleo]

I tend to agree with HCW, especially when she talks about her impressions of VPW. Her conclusions about what VPW meant are about the same as mine, i.e. VPW's "exhortation" to "master PFAL" was more of a call to get back to basics, rather than form an entirely new and exclusive relationship with the Orange Book. Back in the early eighties (about the time VP put out this "call" according to Mike) there was a push to go back to the foundational materials, from which we were in the process of straying (to hear our leaders tell it). But Mike has taken VP's words far more literally and far more seriously than they were ever intended to be, IMO. I don't know that this makes him "mad" or "evil" or "insane," but I do think there is something sad and wrong and futile in exulting transcripts (which are often poorly worded and grammatically incorrect) as if they contain answers to the mysteries of life.

Which reminds me of something else. Back in 1981 (I think), VPW was supposed to visit our state (I was on limb staff). Back then, before any leader came, we were given a schedule and a list beforehand of all the things each "leader" (or "teacher") wanted or needed to make him comfortable, i.e. espresso and Tropicana orange juice (in a glass bottle) for the Trunk leader, a private hotel room for the Orientalisms instructor, etc. Before VP came, we were told to have an assistant with him at all times because (we were told) he was showing signs of dementia, routinely making disgusting suggestions and vulgar passes at the women. I remember feeling sorry for him. Anyway, his plans changed and he didn't visit, but even back then, I didn't expect the women to take him seriously, any more than I would have expected anyone (Mike) to take him literally when he made the equally outrageous suggestion to "master the collaterals."

[Ham]

quote:

Originally posted by ChattyKathy:

So like you're not one of those frustrated beatnik types are ya?

Was that suppose to be starving artist maybe?

beatnik maybe.. not too frustrated. Now if I had to live off of the royalties of my "creations" I might be in real trouble.

No, not beatnik. Maybe old hippie. A friend tells me beatniks weren't all that they were cracked up to be..

[HCW]

No offense Laleo, but I'm a "he." :)-->

[laleo]

Oh. When you called me a he (I'm a she) I thought maybe we were doing some sort of weird gender exchange thing.

[alfakat]

laleo, interesting about vp's canceled visit. Would you mind saying what state you were in or am I asking too much?? just wondering??

by the by, I believe your church will(would??) be a screaming success -- I could definitely make the effort to show up... :D-->

[laleo]

My own private chauffeur. My own personal secretary. My own (chair) stringer. And now I even have alfakat showing up as a screaming success story. All those wasted, unsuccessful attempts to sign people up for PFAL when I should have been soliciting GreaseSpots. Who knew?

I was in Maryland then. I no longer remember the details – whether he was scheduled for a visit and canceled, or whether the whole thing was still in the planning stages when it fell through. It didn’t happen. That much I remember.

[def59]

Interesting dementia was brought up about vpw and his last statments. In my AC I saw his "last" SNS teaching and he looked terrible. If the cancer that was destroying his body had similar effects on his mind, then why should anyone take those final statements to heart?

[Mike]

I have the video of Dr's second to last teaching and the audio of his last. Yes, he looks less than the best of health in the video, and his voice is noticeably even weaker on the audio. But in each of these taped teachings a sound mind is plainly evident. The structure and complexity of those teachings are sound. The words issued are not those of a man with dementia... not in the least.

I know that he was being TREATED as if he were over the hill in those days, but I have no trouble at all treating his final recorded words with the utmost of respect. It's sad for me to see the efforts people will go to to relieve themselves of the responsibility of hearing out what he had to say to us in those final weeks of his life. I have seen many excuses people use to write him off, even from his most vocal supporters at the time. Most everyone seems bound and determined to do everything BUT what he said to do, everything BUT master the PFAL writings. I see nothing better than mastering them.

[ChattyKathy]

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Hammeroni:

quote:

Originally posted by ChattyKathy:

So like you're not one of those frustrated beatnik types are ya?

Was that suppose to be starving artist maybe?

beatnik maybe.. not too frustrated. Now if I had to live off of the royalties of my "creations" I might be in real trouble.

No, not beatnik. Maybe old hippie. A friend tells me beatniks weren't all that they were cracked up to be..

Well ain't I nice....ha ha ha....I call you both frustrated and starving. And you were nice back to me....don't get any ideas Mister.....ha ha ha.

Okay let's start over. So like your a full mellow hippie then, eh?

[ChattyKathy]

quote:

Originally posted by HCW:

No offense Laleo, but I'm a "he." :)-->

quote:

Originally posted by laleo:

Oh. When you called me a he (I'm a she) I thought maybe we were doing some sort of weird gender exchange thing.

LMAO

[mdvaden]

That's an interesting last post.

I had a choice lately. Have my children take TWI latest foundational class, or take an alternative.

It was rather interesting the first time through (me, not them). I'd compare it to the small top tool box of a mechanics set when you go to Sears.

Dr. Wierwille - criticize all you want - gave a class that was comparable to the massive lowere tool box with the upper one with both filled full of tools.

Yeah, maybe a screwdriver got bent, and a drill bit snapped. but 98% of the tools were there.

So...

This week, we are doing a class "on" PFAL for our entire family.

I've sat through Dr.Wierwilles class about 30 times. Just in my first couple of years, I worked the Word several hours a night and about 20 hours each weekend. Then I still studied a lot all my other years. I have not stopped.

So I can teach that class.

And that's my choice.

One thing though - Dr. Wierwille taught that stuff so many times, that I will not likely deviate from what he taught. Best to follow the example.

Any exclusion is minor. For example, the verse about 2 agreeing toughing anything on earth. That verse is specifically in the context of confrontation and witnesses. Like if there was a murder, if the witness of two agreed and symphonized - that's they way it's handled. It will be that way with God because it's the standard He set in His Word in the Old Testament.

But that one minor element is inconsequential to the whole. I'm sticking to the template for now.

Interesting, I plan to share what I'm doing with the people I fellowship with. Not much for behind hidden doors in my life.

[George Aar]

This seems like as good a time as any to reiterate one of my favorite quotes:

"The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true.

It is the chief occupation of mankind."

--H. L. Mencken

Was that guy "tapped in" 'er what?

[WordWolf]

[WordWolf in boldface again.]

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:

I have the video of Dr's second to last teaching and the audio of his last. Yes, he looks less than the best of health in the video, and his voice is noticeably even weaker on the audio. But in each of these taped teachings a sound mind is plainly evident. The structure and complexity of those teachings are sound. The words issued are not those of a man with dementia... not in the least.

I know that he was being TREATED as if he were over the hill in those days, but I have no trouble at all treating his final recorded words with the utmost of respect. It's sad for me to see the efforts people will go to to relieve themselves of the responsibility of hearing out what he had to say to us in those final weeks of his life.

[We've heard it out. Here. Lots of times. From you, if not from the tape you mentioned. We heard it out and weren't impressed. "Christians outside our group don't have the truth. So, take my class some more and bring it to them." It's a commercial. We're not impressed. ]

I have seen many excuses people use to write him off, even from his most vocal supporters at the time.

[ How about "I heard him out and concluded he was wrong." Not an option, in your little world.]

Most everyone seems bound and determined to do everything BUT what he said to do, everything BUT master the PFAL writings.

[by your non-definition, they don't do it. They don't look for secret messages in the text. They don't elevate the pfal books above the Bible that it's supposed to provide the keys to. No, we don't do that. We also don't think that had ANYTHING to do with what he was saying, even IF what he was saying was something that need be heeded.]

I see nothing better than mastering them.

[We're unimpressed by your vision to date. According to you, Christians outside your denomination are all without merit, show forth no love of God, and are incompetent hatemongers who spend all their days worshipping their group's doctrines when instead they should be worshipping YOUR doctrines. Now, the rest of us, we see more Godly things than sitting thru a class the 28th time, scrutinizing someone's less-than-divine books for special hidden messages, and elevating one man's plagiarized mosaic above the Holy Scriptures. So, we see many, many, many things better than "mastering" them as "undefined" by Mike.]

[WordWolf]

quote:

Originally posted by mdvaden:

(snip)

I had a choice lately. Have my children take TWI latest foundational class, or take an alternative.

(snip)

Interesting, I plan to share what I'm doing with the people I fellowship with. Not much for behind hidden doors in my life.

Question.

Out of the last 20-30 years,

how much of that time-for you- was spent in twi,

how much of that time was spent in twi offshoots/splinters,

and how much of that time was spent completely away from them all,

and spent among Christians who'd never "taken the class" or heard of it?

This may surprise you,

but those of us who've actually spent some time among other Christians have

found that SOME of them are shining examples.

Many of them may not be able to rattle off the Greek word for something,

but they could teach the way corpse quite a lot about the love of God and the

heart of God.

It would be to your benefit to see what blessings God would give you by doing

that rather than by locking yourself up with what one person, one group teaches.

vpw certainly didn't restrict himself like that-

his pfal class lifted large volumes of material from JE Stiles, EW Bullinger,

EW Kenyon (the Studies in Abundant Living), and BG Leonard,

down to the wording and the characters

Maggie Muggins

Johnny Jumpup

and Henry Belocco,

all of whom first appeared in BG Leonard's class which vpw sat thru.

So, if it was good enough for HIM to expose himself to the work of other

Christians, then, by golly, it should be good enough for you.

[ChattyKathy]

quote:

Originally posted by mdvaden:

That's an interesting last post.

I thought it rather adorable myself. I hope interesting was for you a good experience.

Welcome to the forum. And based on my limited observation of your posts you should have some interesting conversations here. I hope you find it to your liking and especially to your further education, since none know it all.

Any exclusion is minor. For example, the verse about 2 agreeing toughing anything on earth. That verse is specifically in the context of confrontation and witnesses. Like if there was a murder, if the witness of two agreed and symphonized - that's they way it's handled. It will be that way with God because it's the standard He set in His Word in the Old Testament.

I'm confused. Are you saying two agree as in a negative thing was the context? If I err in understanding you I apologize, but do ask you please explain further if you would.

Interesting, I plan to share what I'm doing with the people I fellowship with. Not much for behind hidden doors in my life.

You will receive some words of advice from folks here that have been harassed and even kicked out of twi because they posted here. You would be wise to watch your back. We will offer you real life experiences while in twi. Take what you will but whatever you do I beseech you to guard yourself if you feel so secure as to post here and not suffer punishment from it.

Do I sound negative? Maybe so, but we have been hurt nigh unto death in some case. If you are prepared to deal with that you will find you are in a place to have your eyes of understanding flooded.

I still adhere to the proper and godly teachings I took away from my 18 years in twi. But since leaving in 2002 I have found there are many ways to the Lord Jesus Christ, and it has nothing to do with a farm just up the road from me a spell.

I'm glad you're here but it may not always be comfortable for you. Regardless I hope you stay.

[Ham]

Full mellow hippie- probably closer to the truth. Actually, I was only partly nice in TWI. The old branch guy thought even then I was too nice. Now I must just be wallowing in niceness.. heh heh.

I think some of us who thought PFAL was a means to an end- the idea that we could understand the bible- got something out of it. But it was highly overrated. No longer was it a nice little set of keys, it turned into some kind of magic pill that could make you "superbeliever", able to jump over the biggest spurts in a single bound. Cripe, it offered claims that only God Almighty had the right to make.