The Bible does not contain the Word of God, it is the Word of God." That doesn't seem to fit with what you're saying here.
Mike:
quote:
First of all, it would help if I had the location of where that is written. I do remember things like that being SAID, but I'm not so sure it was written that way. Plus, if the context is on the table, then we could proceed better. But I'll work with you on this a little without that benefit for now.
Of course, that is not exactly what VPW said. What VPW said was, "The Bible does not contain God's Word; it is God's Word". (Life Lines, p3.) What's the difference in those phrases? Is there any difference? Both phrases sound and appear to be making the exact same sense, right? VPW clarifies this, as on the same page of Life Lines he says, "To most people the Word of God is just words; to us it is life." I'll comment on that later, but I’d first like to address the comment Mike made.
Mike:
quote:
I also used to get annoyed when he's [referring to VPW] find only one text to back him up. I'd think what it (if) THAT text was a forgery, though??? I was often exasperated at how he knew which text or fragment was ok and which ones were not. Now I know the answer: God told him.
It was more like he saw the greater or the overall picture from his working of God’s Word, although a piece or two may be missing – like putting together a complex puzzle. The majority of the puzzle has been put together. Since the majority of it is put together one can easily tell what the intended picture is, but then there is still a piece from a section missing. A piece of green grass will not fit into a blue sky regardless if that puzzle piece [in this case an original text] is from the same puzzle or from a different puzzle [from a different text]. Where it becomes challenging is when dealing with the same section of the puzzle (the same section of text or scripture) though. One must look more closely at the various shades of color and the edges of a piece to discover if that piece will fit into the larger section. A dark piece of blue sky doesn't fit into a section where it is light blue. Sometimes that can be easy to tell, and at times it is difficult, especially when the shades of color and shapes are extremely close. Working God’s Word by carefully examining the usage of words and rightly dividing it has been much like this.
I am using this puzzle analogy to illustrate another spiritual point as well. Take these two phrases for example: "The bible does not contain the word of God it is the word of God" and "The bible does not contain God's Word it is God's Word." On the surface both phrases appear to be expressing the same meaning, when what we are dealing with are "subtle and slightly different shades of color" from a grammatical sense.
Now in the natural world both those phrases and expressions may make no difference in sense, and naturally speaking they may not make any difference to anyone either, (and I suppose this could even make a good defense in a case for plagiarism) but in the spiritual world these expressions can easily make all the difference. Need proof? Don’t just take my word for it. Here’s the proof from the word of God.
In Acts 19 we read the record of the vagabond Jews, exorcists who took upon themselves to cast out evil spirits. I would venture to say they copycatted the apostle Paul to the very last word - maybe they even plagiarized him down to the very last letter. Just what did they say? They said, "We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth". (Acts 19:13) Sounds to me they were speaking and using the exact same words the apostle Paul did to cast out devils. The apostle Paul got results when he used those words, but what were these fellows’ results? One would think they should get the same results since they were using the exact same words the apostle Paul did. That seems “logical” enough to me. Some other religious fellows, seven sons of Sceva and the chief priests decided to follow suit.
Verse 15
And the evil spirit answered and said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are ye?"
Now that's a real good question to ask. Just who in the he** do you think you are? Some people have been out of TWI for years (from my observance at least) trying to accomplish something for God, while others have totally given up on God’s Word. Some people think they can accomplish things by copying VPW and his ministry, while there are those who believe they can accomplish something by altering things – i.e. teachings. Those people have always been around. They also show up here on GS Caf?ccasionally. But what has been the result these many years? The result is the same thing we see recorded in Acts. Those spirits have jumped on people and they too have fled - naked and wounded.
Just where has everybody that I knew in TWI, at least those who genuinely love God and His Word gone? Some are on the Internet complaining how TWI (more likely someone in TWI) left them naked and wounded. But we always hear about the naked and wounded (at least the physical side it seems) more than the spiritual side. The reason they haven’t touched the spiritual side is because they themselves are naked and wounded - spiritually speaking. The reason this is evident to me is because while some have endeavored to copy VPW and his ministry others are out attempting to alter it somehow by spreading rumors and gossip. Both groups are spiritually naked and wounded if you ask me.
I am now wondering if this thread will get to be as long as the “Mastering PFAL” thread. It’s already off to a good start. Mike’s back again with his “challenge to master PFAL” or he has already alluded to it. But I can’t blame anyone for not taking him up on the challenge. The reason I believe that, is because the fear is too great somebody might start up another copycat TWI ministry. God help us! Right? But then … I was taught we were the new dynamic church.
It appears nobody here is taking your challenge to master PFAL very seriously Mike. God forbid, “We adjure you by Jesus whom VPW preacheth!” (At least the one I think VPW is preaching.) Yes Sir. That’s exactly what has been happening for years now. It’s still happening inside and outside the corporate TWI structure and we’ve witnessed the same results many times over. The result - people have fled – naked and wounded. I am specifically addressing people who think in order to have God’s truth they either have to copy (parrot) what a man of God did, or they got to alter the revelation of God’s Word, but nobody really has the picture yet. It’s one thing to copy what someone has given you, then quite another to understand what you’ve been given. Believing comes from having a working and living understanding of the word of God. One doesn’t “arrive” simply by copying it or by copying someone else. That is why it’s very hard to believe VPW copied (plagiarized) it all, especially when his understanding of God’s Word was vastly different from those he supposedly copied (plagiarized) from.
Why argue the law of believing when that principle is ingrained right from the very first letter in the bible from Genesis 1:1 to the last letter in Revelation 22:21. The first letter in God’s Word is “I” and the last letter is “n”. One doesn’t get “In” the picture [one can call it God’s favor] parroting what another man (or woman) has done or by altering the revelation of God’s Word. The law of believing is written into every page, every word and every single letter of the bible.
Power For Abundant Living gives one the tools to rightly divide the Word of God. Just because someone is given tools doesn’t imply they will do the job properly, or that they will ever do the job. One can also be given tools and not know how to use them. I have seen PFAL grads who simply don’t know how to use the tools they were given in PFAL. I’ve witnessed it already in this thread where someone’s weak understanding and application of the principle of “first usage” they were initially given in PFAL was mishandled. I’ve seen grads of PFAL allow the tools they were given for rightly dividing God’s Word “get rusty”. But that isn’t the fault of PFAL. I know if I let incompetent workmen into my house to do repairs many things in my home would end up becoming altered. That’s no surprise. Things would look very different than what they should look like, and many things wouldn’t work at all. The same thing is true spiritually.
How effective is a workman who allows his tools to get rusty and useless? How effective is the workmen who doesn’t know how to properly use his tools? When a workman of the Word doesn’t properly use the tools to rightly divide God’s Word they end up doing one of two things: They end up copying another man and his ministry, or somehow the revelation of God’s Word becomes altered. But the results are still the same – one is left spiritually naked and wounded. Now I can’t say for certain Jesus is going to show up at the return with a PFAL book to judge anyone, but I do know for certain you and I will both have to give account of our workmanship. To you “apprentice” workmen who were also given the tools to rightly divide God’s Word, Jesus will appear more to you like Donald Trump and inform you, YOU’RE FIRED!
Some have become spiritually lazy and allowed themselves to become inept at rightly dividing God’s Word, while others weak in understanding the things of God don’t have anything left but jokes and Dr. Seuss rhymes to offer people; spiritually speaking. Well some may laugh, but I’m not laughing especially where people’s lives are at stake. Many of my brothers and sisters who love the true God are devastated by those whom they looked to for spiritual help now ridicule God’s Word into nothingness. Well, there will always be those who make light of the things of God, and then there will be those who treat the Word of God with contempt. But what can one expect from a hypocrite? It is part of the leaven the lord Jesus told his disciples to be aware of and also to avoid in Luke 12:1.
The word for hypocrisy is: hupokrisis. It is made up of two root words, hupo (means above or beyond) and krisis (meaning judgment). The word of God is the ultimate judge, it is the ultimate rule. A hypocrite is one who “breaks the rule” by placing themselves above and beyond the righteous judgment of the true God. They won’t be humble to it, as they’ve placed themselves outside, or above and beyond God’s authority. It can happen not only at top leadership levels inside the church, but also outside the church, for the same spirit is in the world. You know what I’m talking about - those who have said in their heart, “I’m my own man (or own woman). I have the final say for I answer to no one!”
Hopefully some of them who are here will wake up pretty soon, otherwise they might have a very rude awakening one day. It’s a sobering truth to those who love God, even if you believe it came out the mouth of a fool, “If you won’t be humble to the Word, you will be humbled by the world.” There are two Gods (the God and father of our lord Jesus Christ) and Satan, the god of this world. One always places themselves under the authority of either one - even the person who believes they are their own man or woman. They might not think they are under anyone’s authority, but then the devil, Satan himself, doesn’t think that way either. According to God’s Word he will have a rude awakening someday too.
Nobody can be argued into mastering PFAL anymore than one can argue someone into opening the bible and reading it. Why? Because when it comes to their (your) life, they (you) have the ultimate say as to what they (you) will spiritually allow and what they (you) wont. You have the authority in your life as to where you will get your spiritual nourishment. I can’t force someone into eating fish and pine nuts (although it is a healthy diet) onto somebody who is content with eating french-fries, cheeseburgers and high fat food all the time. There are areas in life where you have and can operate spiritual authority, and tehn there are areas where you don’t have any spiritual authority.
That is why understanding your realm of authority and walking in that realm is a major key to operating the law of believing effectively. Now don’t go complaining there isn’t such a law because you can’t believe big enough to create stars and planets. That’s not your realm of spiritual authority. There is a spiritual realm where you do have authority, and there is a realm where you don’t have any say or authority. If you tried to operate the law of believing in the realm where you have authority and still didn’t receive whatever it was you were believing for, it’s because God isn’t as stupid as you want Him to be. That’s all.
You are accountable to God to properly steward what you have been given. Why would God honor someone’s prayer and give them a bigger home, a bigger car, a bigger paycheck, etc. etc. etc. if they aren’t capable or faithful in stewarding what He has already given them? Stewarding what one already has is a burden more than enough for most people to bear, so a bigger car, bigger home and bigger paycheck would only end up being a bigger burden around their neck - that’s all. The reason people desire more and bigger things is because of the joy they believe those things will bring, but that joy is often short lived. They think having more things will soothe their souls troubled by fear and desire, but having more money and more things cannot do that. I know people who are filthy rich who are more afraid now then when they were poor – they are afraid of losing all their money. The fears that drove them to get rich only got worse while the weak and needy part of their soul is screaming louder and louder.
Well, it is remarkable Jesus would also mention covetousness in Luke 12. Shortly after telling his disciples to beware of hypocrisy he instructs them to beware of covetousness in verse 15. One characteristic doesn’t show up without the other does it? Jesus then tells them a man’s life doesn’t consist in the abundance of the things he possesses, but a hypocrite considers those things and the accumulation of worldly things to be very important. One of those things is social status and the authority and recognition of that position by other people. So it goes – just how many people can you get to jump whenever you bark? Money comes into play because money buys people. People become slaves to money because of the positions of power and the worldly recognition money often buys for them.
I trust I’ve given you a lot of “food for thought”. Some may digest what I’ve said, while others might choke on it. Some will decide to cut it up and hash it up because it’s different from the hypocrisy they’ve been feeding on and what they’ve been spiritually serving others for years. In their minds they could be saying, “Just who in the he** do you think you are?” To that I will only answer, “I am what God’s Word says I am. I am not pretending to be anything more or less, because one day I will have to stand before the lord and give account of my workmanship.” I certainly can’t speak for you or for anyone else, because that is outside my realm of spiritual authority.
I am sure there are people who still want to address the errors in PFAL. People also wanted to do that while VPW was alive. Now that he’s dead and gone (and fewer competent workmen of God’s Word are available) they believe there are errors in it simply because their position is not being challenged like it used to be. When the boss isn’t around, incompetent workmen slack off and take a holiday. Since they ended up having a lot of “run-in’s” with the boss, they go off running and whining to their colleagues complaining what a raw deal the boss handed them.
Since the boss isn’t around, the slackers (mistakenly) think they don’t have to give account of their workmanship. It’s the: “I am my own man, my own woman syndrome. Sorry it doesn’t work that way. God is our ultimate “Boss”. VPW understood that principle - that one day he would ultimately have to give account of his workmanship. He placed his work under God’s authority, and he put it in writing for everyone to take note of. He wrote, “I have written up my years of research not to be argumentative; neither am I apologetic. I simply want to set forth my study as a workman for God, realizing that if the research is a right dividing of God’s Word, many who will believe will be blessed. If my research is a wrong dividing of God’s Word, then I stand before God as an unapproved workman. Either way I accept full responsibility”. (Page 3 of JCING.)
He never told you or me we would be responsible for his workmanship, so where do people get the idea it is their responsibility to pick out the “errors in PFAL” - especially when we are not responsible for his workmanship? Man oh man, what a relief it is to understand that! If people were as genuinely concerned about their own spiritual workmanship as they want you to believe they are about VPW’s, they wouldn’t have time to pick apart his workmanship - they’d be more concerned what the boss thinks of theirs. But they got to point out the errors and magnify them because they’re afraid you’ll end up focusing on their lousy workmanship. Why should anyone give a rats a** what you have to say about PFAL anyway – good or bad? God is the one who will be handing out our paychecks and rewards, not any of you!! Just who in the he** do you think you are?
To most people, the Word of God is just words, (words to argue and strive with people about) but to us it is life. You and I are supposed to study to show ourselves (we’re not to make somebody else) approved unto God. (2 Timothy 2:15) You can’t make anyone stand approved unto God by arguing PFAL, God’s Word, the Bible or anything else for that matter with them. It’s not within your realm of spiritual authority to make someone stand approved unto God, so why even try to operate there? What a waste of precious time, time that can never be recovered. It’s nothing but hypocrisy, and all that does is create strife among people. When one spiritually grows up into understanding that, it will cause them to be at peace – not only with their neighbor but with their enemies as well. God bless you all.
1. No one is claiming that all of PFAL is plagiarized, some of us have pointed out that some of it clearly is. In some places he takes things farther than those he stole from, in others he arguably doesn't understand his source material.
quote:
That is why it’s very hard to believe VPW copied (plagiarized) it all, especially when his understanding of God’s Word was vastly different from those he supposedly copied (plagiarized) from.
2. The "Actual Errors" list was not started to debunk PFAL, or to judge it deficient, but to debunk Mike's assertion that it was god-breathed and free of error. The poster who started the AE thread thinks highly of PFAL, although he doesn't subscribe to all of its contents
quote:
I am sure there are people who still want to address the errors in PFAL...He never told you or me we would be responsible for his workmanship, so where do people get the idea it is their responsibility to pick out the “errors in PFAL” - especially when we are not responsible for his workmanship?...
Well folks, I have to make hay while the sun shines here in San Diego, so my available time is very short to deal with the pile on, or the pile up, of posts here in this thread. I see that personal attacks are still the M.O. of some. I feel much more challenged by posts that deal with the substance of the issue. When I see my personal life the focus of posts here I know the writer is stumped on the real issue of the soundness of PFAL. This is all the more the case when that focus on me gets nasty and derogatory. I feel no challenge when the subject is me.
What the Hay, I look forward to reading your long post better than the light skim I've had time for it so far.
HCW, I noticed that you avoided answering my question about your only rule for faith and practice, but I already know what the general form of the answer is. If the answer were "yes" you'd have said so, and proudly posted it's Library of Congress number(s). But I see it's "no" and you wing it just like everyone else. You decide which way you will modify your KJV, NIV, or whatever version you use. You decide which critical Greek texts to lean on in which situations. You decide which theologians (or combinations of their research tools) you'll accept for any passages too difficult for you alone. If at some time later you detect a change in the wind, you'll decide which past perspectives of yours you will change for any particular verses.
This is what nearly everyone does, OR they find someone else to do the same process for them.
You have no God-breathed, unalterable, physically existing standard outside of your own brain. You yourself make all the doctrinal decisions in your life. Your only rule for faith and practice is whatever you happen to be thinking at the present time that suits your fancy and makes you feel like you're following God.
I'm addressing this to you because you're the new guy here, but nearly everyone with natural leadership capabilities does it here, as well as elsewhere.
This is how Dr opens up his last book, "Order My Steps In Thy Word," Chapter One, which is titled "GOD ALMIGHTY—EL SHADDAI"
"There are some men in this world who are willing for God to be the God of heaven, but they are not willing for Him to be the God on earth. The Lord’s Prayer says, 'Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.' Although the prayer says, 'Thy will be done in earth,' most people want their own wills to be done here on earth.
"Man’s reasoning—no matter how enlightened or how logical he may believe that he is—will never give man a true knowledge of God. Only the revelation from God in His Word does that. In order to see the greatness of our God as the 'Almighty God,' we must observe God’s revelation of Himself."
If God doesn't give us this revelation of Himself, and we only have theologians to try and reconstruct, translate, and interpret the lost ancient scriptures for us, then we can never have a true spiritual knowledge of God. We may get a few accurate 5-senses things to juggle and entertain ourselves, but nothing that threatens the rule of the adversary. If God does step into the situation to fix the problem, but we reject His revelation of Himself, His Word, and His will, then we likewise will never really, spiritually, know Him.
WTH, for the most part I agree with what you posted, however, there is one thing you said that is simply innaccurate, at least to my understanding of the things of God.
quote:
Power For Abundant Living gives one the tools to rightly divide the Word of God.
PFAL never gave anybody any tools to "rightly divide the Word of God". If anything, it outlined a few principles that brother Weirwille thought important while at the same time indoctrinating the student into his particular partial, flawed, take on the Bible.
The Scriptures are made known by revelation. Period. The Holy Spirit of God does the revealing and the recipient doesn't even have to be born again. Surely you've read that Peter and John were unlearned and ignorant men. Literally, they were illiterate. This negates the proposition that "Study to show thyself approved..." has anything to do with research tools.
This study, simply means to be diligent, be careful, pay attention cause this is important. NOT "master the collaterals" or "work the word and make it your own".
The right dividing of the word belongs to HIM who is the word, and to whom said word belongs.
Consider the following people (unfortunately, I'm at work right now and don't have a Bible program on my computer, however, all of the examples I'll sight are verifiable, what's more, I'm certain most people reading this message will be familiar enough with the Scriptures to recognize these occasions.) If there are any mistakes when I quote Scripture, it is do to the fact that I am doing this from (faulty, fleshy) memory.
When Jesus asked His apostles "But whom do you say that I am"? after the dispute regarding exactly who he was crept into their group. Peter answered, "Thou are the Christ, the Son of the Living God." To which Jesus responded by saying "blessed art thou Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto you, but my Father which is in heaven".
The right dividing of the word was accomplished by revelation. NOT pfal tools.
Recall the two as they walked along the road to Aremea. How did they receive the knowledge of the truth? By revelation. NOT pfal tools.
Paul's knowledge of the mystery, according to his testimony in Ephesians was received by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Paul went on to say that when we read, we may have the same knowledge that he had. This requires (if it is to be the same knowledge) the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today, and forever. He will be revealed to those who genuinely seek to know Him.
Think of all those who knew Him before pfal was even put together after being smurfed from the various men of God the majority of the material was taken from. Were they somehow innadequately equipped to get the job done because they didn't have the right tools (pfal) to rightly divide the word of truth? I think not.
Sorry, got to go right now. Amazing, but even brother Weirwille according to Mike's last post, happened to agree.
originally posted by Mike
quote:
If God doesn't give us this revelation of Himself, and we only have theologians to try and reconstruct, translate, and interpret the lost ancient scriptures for us, then we can never have a true spiritual knowledge of God. We may get a few accurate 5-senses things to juggle and entertain ourselves, but nothing that threatens the rule of the adversary. If God does step into the situation to fix the problem, but we reject His revelation of Himself, His Word, and His will, then we likewise will never really, spiritually, know Him.
while others weak in understanding the things of God don’t have anything left but jokes and Dr. Seuss rhymes to offer people;
Perhaps this is a fair assessment.. perhaps not.
It is so ridiculous, maybe that's all one can do- laugh.
Honestly. Here we have a class on "basic keys". OK.. I'll give it that much credit. I still hold a lot of what I learned in it pretty useful and valid.
But. How many times do you teach a toddler the "basics" of going potty? All the way through adolescence and beyond? Lets see.. the "toddler" is now forty five years old, and somehow you must call him up every five minutes, reminding him of the "accuracy" of his potty teaching long ago.
Cripe. When can people be allowed to grow up? Really. Personally, I do not believe that the walk in Christ is that hard, that dumfoundedly anally detailed, or bound so tightly in a MANS teaching and opinion that it is impossible to really walk with God without "mastering" every frigging detail.
Abraham walked with God. God just said "go" and he went.. may have taken a few years to figure out a few details, but holy smokes- he didn't sit around trying to "master" the definition of what "go" meant. Same for lots of other folks.
Fine. You've "mastered" all Dr's teachings about "redemption". Wonderful. What in the he** are you doing with it? Where are you "going" in life?
It sounds no better to me than a new, improved, modern form of "christian" phariseeism. You know every friggin detail, but what are you doing with it? Not only do some mull over every stinking detail, they insist that the rest of us do the same. Again, and again, and again.. and you'll never "arrive", you'll never "go".
Mr. H -- well spoken. This is waddahayseed's MO here -- come in declaring, by fiat, his total understanding of ALL things and his reproof for ALL. I guess he thinks he is JC's little bother or sumpn'....
His gassy, wind-bag diatribes are perfect examples of why twit, piffle and vpw are yesterday's news, old and tired.
waddahay-- where is your great ministry of deliverance??? with all your smarts, certainly you can do far more than vp......
""Why should anyone give a rats a** what you have to say ... anyway – good or bad?"" eat your own words, klown...guess you cannot count high enough to know how many fingers you are pointing at yourself, eh???
ps after re-reading your little self-styled "Jeremiahd" you might want to tone down the volume a tad -- you sound a lot like those attempting to pick out motes without the benefit of self-cleaning first....YMMV
All things considered, I think I'd rather go to Laleo's church.
In fact, I may already be.
I find the main proponent of "PFAL is The Bible for our day and time" line of reasoning to be a particularly troubling individual. He reminds me of the guy we see every so often on the evening news, being led away in handcuffs after committing some unspeakable act, yelling indecipherable rants about the "anti-Christ" or God's judgement or other supernatural truths known only to him. I'm sure that guy is absolutely convinced of his doctrine as well.
Wow. My own church. This is overwhelming. I've never had disciples before. Or even a following. I didn't even know anyone was reading my posts. I don't know where to begin, beings that I'm in no condition to conquer the world at the moment, what with being all congested and achy and sneezy and stuffy and fuzzy and all, but as soon as I'm feeling better, we should organize a planning committee and start accepting tithes and all that. The first thing we'll need is money, then we can decide on a set of precepts. You in, George? Tom? Mr. Hammeroni? WordWolf? (Should we invite Mike?) Oh, the possibilities.
laleo, I'll make sure all the chairs are out of order. And see all the toilet paper rolls don't have those little triangle thingees. And any other job you can think of would be fine by me. :)-->
Your life won't be perfect because no life is perfect. You'll deal with it. You'll know joy and anger and forgiveness and longing, and you won't berate yourself for feeling all those things. And everything you've done up to this point will be part of your life experience, and you'll find the good in it all. Or not. You'll find God in all sorts of places you never thought to look, and occasionally you'll even find the meaning of life.
You certainly described the whole thing very well :)-->
Someone talked about getting your new church funded - I think it was Flip Wilson who used to play the part of the Pastor Leroy of the "Church of What's Happenin' NOW!"
He said stuff like, "You can't gamble, because you MIGHT loose! Amen! And if you Loose, then that means you will want to play again to win it ALL back - and THEN Some!!! That leads to vengance, and vengance and lust is a powerful, powerful, sin combination!!!"
"Save that gamblin' money and put it in the collection plate!!" "The Lord givith...
... and the Church of What's Happenin' Now - taketh away!"
Thank you, Kathy. I'll be counting on you to keep us all indecent and disorderly.
WordWolf: You can keep your title. Just not your wallet.
Too Gray Now: Years ago, when I would watch spoofs like that, I would cringe, just a little, in recognition. Then I'd quickly talk myself out of what I must have known on some level to be true. Nah, they couldn't have been describing us. No way. Now I feel like I'm part of the Church of What Happened When.
Thank you, Kathy. I'll be counting on you to keep us all indecent and disorderly.
That is one of the nicest things ever said to me, because I love the whole idea of doing just that. Thank you laleo 'cause your words know me. Geez, did that hurt you as much to read as it did me....LMAO! :D-->
Yeah, Mike, I'd say you're well-qualified for the "mad prophet" position, except I'm not so sure "prophet" is a fitting description. Truth be told, I don't think you're "mad" either, although I do wonder why you so stubbornly disregard relevant input from people who are not only intelligent, but also caring, and just as familiar with "Doctor's" writings as you are.
Never mind. On second thought, you're not qualified. How 'bout you play the part of the meek, hungry searcher, and listen again to what your peers here at GreaseSpot are saying? Maybe, just maybe, you'll benefit from some of the collective wisdom and experience here.
I'd like to apply for the position of the mad prophet who screams that everyone has it all wrong and that everything is going to hell in a handbasket.
I come with references, and with two years of experience documented in writing.
Mike if laleo has any kind of release sessions and we group up you can't be in mine. You would freak me out man. You really should take a nice long weekend and go lay in the sun by the water or something.
Nice try, electing yourself to prophet status, that is.... I tend to agree w/ Laleo, especially when he mentioned the word "peers."
For the record, I don't see myself as higher, or better that you or anyone else here, there or anywhere. I do take my "position" as a WC grad seriously, and therefore define myself in terms of being "leadership" as being your servant (by Jesus' definition).
That being said. As it relates to this topic, I've simply been places, seen & heard & participated in things concerning it that you were not privvy to Mike. For example: Did you know that the first class of the year in the Way Corps is an "advanced" version of PFAL (at least it was when I was there & until LCM replaced the class with his own) that included more detail, background & etc. concerning it? Then we took the rest of the series, all of 'em.
This is what was going on when, as mentioned on other threads, the disturbing videos (like the dogs having sex w/ women video) were shown. The idea was to give us a more in-depth view of the materials than what was done on the field. Theory being that we, as "leadership," should have the most up-to-date and in-depth knowledge of the materials available.
PFAL was the foundation of what we were taught but the center and nucleus of all the teachings revolved around Corps Night. Do you even know what Corps Night is Mike?
Just in case. Corps Night was three hours of teaching every Wednesday where VPW would teach a book from the Bible line by line, word by word. In essence it was like having VPW, himself, sit with you and do a word study on every word in whichever book of the Bible he was working on at the time.
My Corps group, the 11th, was the last WC group ever to have Vp teach Corps night live to for both of our in-residence years. They would do a conference call and he would teach live to all of the in-residence locations from wherever he was on Wednesday. At the time I felt fortunate that we were taught (again I emphasize one word or phrase at a time) Romans, Ephesians, and Thessalonians. We also got Philippians and a couple of other short NT books.
Speaking of experience, hmm... lets calculate about 46 weeks per year, multiplied by 3 hours per week; by two years equals over 275 HOURS of BIBLE teachings, line by line, word by word; LIVE w/ VPW. Add to this the MONTH we took going through the 40 hours of PFAL, adding the additional, advanced info. Weeks of the Intermediate class, then the Advanced Class, in the Corps with all AC grads. We took the film versions then had extra teachings on stuff, & we had extra videos, presentations, etc. ... ot was the same class as on the field, just additional support & background material.
In ALL of that VP never ONCE, no not EVER did he mention, teach, insinuate, intimate or anything else did he EVER even BEGIN to say, in ANY way, shape, or form that his PFAL materials were a God-Breathed replacement for the Bible. Nope, nada, zip, zilcho, nein, nunca, NO!!! Mike, not once.
He didn't say we should "master PFAL" either. Nor did he teach us PFAL, line by line, word by word. He didn't even teach PFAL to us live, nor was he even a part of the classes we had in it. Corps night was his baby, it was the last thing he held on to concerning the WC training.
Isn't it reasonable to conclude that if the man who taught it didn't refer to it in the manner you do, at the "inner sanctum" - PRIVATE, "leadership only" teachings, that he just din't see it as you do? Come on Mike, there were over 500 people who started out in our group alone. Don't you think one or two would have picked up on this God-Breathed thing?
I guess that again, my proximity to Vp, the fact that I sat through well over 200 hours of his most in-depth teachings of the three most important doctrinal epistles in the Bible - - the fact that I still have my notes from all of those teachings, plus written copies of the transcripts from Ephesians & a couple others. Not to mention the transcript from the opening night of our Corps training where the thought was that Vp's teaching that night was SO significat to our futures that the WPD typed every word from the tape and the BOT gave it to us as a gift (stop & breathe HC... :)-->)....
I guess that disqualifies me as being able to determine Vp's status w. God. Right?
To quote Groucho, "That's the most rediculous thing I ever heard!" - - So, I guess now you won't say it.
Experience, documentation! The evidence to refute your position is so overwhelming I don't have words to express, how overwhelming it is.
Laleo was wrong about one point. I'm personally more familiar w/ "Dr's" writings than you'll EVER be. If all you have is his books, you only have a fraction of his written materials on the subject.
Besides, what you refer to as his "last, lost teaching" wasn't and isn't lost at all. Craig threw it away. I still have my copy of the SNS tape Vp. did. Again, in a box in the basement.
I actually agree with some aspect of your position, believe it or not. I do believe that PFAL has a singular significance as far as Bible teachings go. I don't know of another class in the world that empahsizes God's having used figures of speech to aid on the Bible interpreting itself, as PFAL does. I do believe that lack of understanding of figures used in the Bible is a glaring weakness among the organized Christian faith worldwide.
I do believe there are some relevant aspects of PFAL that should not be "lost." BUT. I also believe there are others, individuals, and ministries that teach "everything" that PFAL has to offer.
I'm taking Alpha right now. It covers everything PFAL does without the TWI spin and is a WONDERFUL foundational class for Christian seeking a personal relationship with God and Jesus our savior. It even goes BEYOND PFAL in that Alpha builds relationship with the people who take the class in a GODLY manner. We eat together before evey session. The teachings are all less than an hour (after 80 minutes human resistance to the message and the ability to actually learn breaks down psychologically).
The Alpha class even includes a weekend retreat (which IS an accurate term, no matter what LCM thinks) called "The Holy Spirit and You" where, even though its taught as "gifts of the Spirit" people do actually recieve AND manifest, including speaking in tongues. It happens like it did in Acts.
AND while you were preparing your "HCW can't answer my question gloat" statement, HCW was actually attending a two day presentation, that my church hosted (and people from many other churches attended) called "Answers in GENESIS." ( Answers in Genisis . org) AIG is a FANTASTIC organization, "a nondenominational Christian ministry dedicated to upholding the Word of God from the very first verse. The ministry provides seminars, lectures, and programs to the general public, colleges, universities, and churches on the topic of origins. The ministry publishes Creation magazine, and offers numerous books, tapes, and other materials on this and related topics."
The two evenings of their presentaion will blow you away with the simplicity of the evidence that the Bible IS true. They Biblically answer questions concerning everything from how old the Earth is, when did dinosaurs live, how did we get "races" of people, Noah & the ark, what about "the missing link," what about fossil evidence of man's evolution from apes, where did eveoltionary teaching come from? etc.
The even have a "Creation museum" they are currently building that illustrates what God says about the creation of life & is there life on other planets. In a word its incredible. They even publish their financials on the web free for all to see (they did a little over $9 mil in 2003, btw).
So Mike, when I say it's crazy to believe what you do about PFAL, it isn't any personal tirade against you. I wasn't avoiding your rediculous questions. I just have volumes of experiences and information and DOCUMENTATION to the contrary. Unfortunately, perhaps for you Mike, I'll never share one word of my "private conversations w/ VPW" with you concerning his views on PFAL. I could scan pages from my notes from hundreds of hours of "personal" teachings (yes. I believe that if I'm in a room where someone is teaching a group, he's talking to me, personally) and send them to you.
But I won't. You have proven to me that this quest has little to nothing to do with PFAL, Vp and definately not God. I no longer see you as a basically good guy who is passionate about his position. Your posts lack the requisite level of honesty for me to see you that way. What I see is your consistant and constant attempts to exault yourself. I see you using PFAL as a means to draw attention to yourself. I see you eloquently but viciously slashing away at all who don't agree to accept your position.
I see all those things as demonic behavior, evil at its root and very nature. You speak of God's word with SO much contempt. No bones about it, I do NOT accept your dubious distinction between the Bible and God's word. In fact I see right through it.
If we were to reject the Bible, in favor of PFAL, we could NEVER get to God's will via PFAL alone, it simply does not cover ENOUGH of the Bible. I see all of your pedantic ramblings as a means to your expected end - - that we throw away our primary source of acquiring God's word and will for life in favor of a MAN.
A man who, at BEST forsook - - threw away his ministry from God ... a chance to "teach The Word as is hasn't been known for centuries." He spit in God's face, threw away any faithfulness he had ever earned, for WHAT? NOOKIE? A chance to "do" some "hot chicks." When I, IF I see VP in heaven I will walk up to him and slap his face - - with my LEFT hand. (IF you've MASTERED PFAL you'll know what that means.... Do YOU?)
At the worst Vp was a lecherous, sadistic, freak of a human, as evil as Cain, "that wicked one who slew his own brother." He could very well be the guy who used all of his teachings, life experiences, etc. in a self-serving attempt to "get over" on the whole freakin' world, God included. He could have ONLY been out to exault his own throne above the star, God.
For all I know of him, VPW, the times I spent w/ him personally, the 10 years of my life I specifically spent using MY God-Given Talents to build HIS "ministry" et. al. I HONESTLY CAN'T TELL you difinitively, which one he was; The fallen MOG drawn away of his own lusts, enticed; or the personification of evil. The fruit of his life suggests BOTH. SInce "no man knows the things of a man..." I can't say.
I can say however, of YOU, Mike, I have NO evidence of fruit from your life other than your trying relentlessly to drag me into your version; your self-constructed, "no lose" (for you); "no win" (for me) debate. All you've done is rebuke and debunk EVERYTHING I've said. No body in a debate is 100% wrong, yet you have not accepted a SINGLE point I've made. You have selectively chosen to address things I've said.
All you've done is tell me about a bunch of different ways nobody should believe me. My eye witness account DISQUALIFIES my POV of what I witnessed?
INSANE.
EVIL.
When I told you to stop I was referring to stopping the madness.
You rejected even that.
In so doing you spouted off with dishonest references to your heresy. That's why others felt they should update me. They wanted me to know what I'm actually dealing with. Trust ME. I KNOW precisely who, or should I say WHAT I'm dealing with.
Now I'm REJECTING - - YOU. Get away from me, STAY away from me. Address my posts if you wish. We all already know what you'll say.
All you have done with your years spent on this subject it talk yourself into believing it. OF COURSE, if anybody looks at it the same way you do and follws the same path you did they will talk themselves into believing YOUR BS as well.
THAT is how brainwashing works! FORCING one's mind down a path of insanity tears away at the sanity, "Don't ye know that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump???"
NO. I'm NOT gonna accept your pedantic questions from YOUR point of view and ONLY answer them as YOU say I should. STAY the HELL outta my head. I will ADDRESS your statements, IF and when I want to, IF I want to and will comment on them as I see fit.
Like NOW.
quote:
posted by Mike:
Speaking of consistency, is there a consistent, unalterable physical standard (that's already written) you answer to and derive guidance from? Or do you wing it with a semi-standard set of writings over which YOU are the final judge on what is believed and what is "scratched out" and what is wide-margin modified?
YES. I DO have a source outside my own brain that guides me. Its called Holy Spirit. Keep your insults in the garage, OK? "Wing it, sming it."
There is NO such thing as an unalterable PHYSICAL standard. ALL physical things are temporal and alterable by DEFINITION in that they, as ALL physical things, MY BRAIN included, are in a constant state of deterioration.
I am the final judge of NOTHING. However I DO determine what I DO and do NOT believe, and OBEY. GOD told me I can and should do that. He also told me I'd be "more noble than" others IF I searche the SCRIPTURES (not PFAL) whether things I'm taught of Him are so. I do THAT.
quote:
I am asking you if you have found (existing in the physical realm) a set of authoritative writings that you feel you must measure up to as your ultimate authority.
This is a ...., trick question similar to the ones Satan used to try and trap Jesus in (matthew 4) and the pharasees used elsewhere in the gospels.
Can you explain to anyone how the F@$K you can get "a set of authoritive WRITINGS" outside of the physical realm?
I perceivest that thou watchest to mucheth STAR TREK. Spirits don't use PENS, you freakin idiot. What in hell do you take me for? (literally.) I'm certainly not EMBARRASSED to say I don't go transportatin' around "other realms" looking for my "only rule for faith & practice." Life isn't Monty Python's search for "The Holy Graile."
You make a mockery of God with your rediculous "questions."
BESIDES, theat "only rule for faith & practice" thing is NOT Biblical! At best IT is a figure of speech to emphasize the place the Bible should have in our lives above ALL other BOOKS.
GOD says, "...the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; " (Romans 1:20)
THEREFORE; I can learn about invisible things concerning GOD from looking around in the PHYSICAL realm. You can't even SEE spirit anyway, smarty pants.
When I read my Bible, God, who is Spirit speaks to me as I read it; via my spirit, His gift to me that gives me LIFE eternal. Spiritual things are LIFE as GOD sees it; one can ONLY receive and then discern spiritual things via the spirit, NOT PFAL, not a Bible or any other book.
(1 Corinthians 2:14)
However, if one actually IS alive, as in living with Holy Spitit IN him, he can then see, understand, and discern spiritual matters... otherwise Godly spiritual concepts seem foolish to him. That is a mathematically precise statement in that the precise opposite of it is true also.
When one DOES have the spirit living in him Godly spiritual things have a "ring" of truth to him. Is YOUR "bell ringin'" Mike?
What I find interesting Mike; is how well your God-breathed PFAL thing fits w/ Romans chapter 1:21 - 25
" Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, (thinking PFAL can replace the Bible.) and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, (VPW? Corruptable???) and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,(PFAL writings replacing the glory of God's written word) and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, (Bible? You don't need no stinking BIBLE!) and worshipped and served the creature (VPW) more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."
VPW certainly wasn't "blessed for ever."
Should I go on? I don't think we want to get into the next steps down from there Mike. The next verses are the inevitable steps down the same path.
You're thinking your life would end if you abandon this quest for PFAL?
quote:
posted by Mike
But "stop" will I? No, thanks. Suppose I do (just suppose), THEN what would I do?
At least you were polite about it.
As VP said so often, "Sincerity is no guarantee for truth." As it was so eloquently pointed out to you (and YOU avoided addressing...Oh, yeah, YOU're TOO busy, making a living...) YOUR life will not end if you abandon this Mike. You may end the "life" of whatever (or should I say WHOMever) is influencing you, but your life will go on.
You could even sign up for an internet dating thing and find someone equally "nerdy" as yourself in every way. (God knows they are out there.) You may just hit the jackpot & find someone who'll be willing to touch you... hold your hand as you walk on one of those beautiful San Diego beaches. Nerds kiss & even "do the nasty," too if you spent HALF of your online time on "eHarmony.com" Who knows? You could find "Mrs. Mikey" in no time. People do it every day, you know.
A suggestion: Don't tell her you think that if we get a quorem of people who've "mastered" (at your request) a discontinued Bible Class (that people only offer under direct threat of copyright infringement by the dangerous CULT who owns it but won't offer it themselves) the the quorem of enough folks will ring a bell in heaven and Jesus will come back with an orange hard-cover book in his hands. (Not to mention charts in the clouds, corny angel jokes and stories of scarlet drapes om the throneroom of heaven.)
Mrs. "just as wrong as everybody else" just MIGHT not be able to get with all that.
GEEZ. My longest post ever. I guess I DIDN'T want to be brief, Huh?
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Bolshevik
Remember the ROA everyone smiling stupid all day? Zombies. Just zombies. With snack tents.
Rocky
Not that I necessarily disagree with you two, but returning to the topic of the PFLAP class... it's all about removing uncertainty from us and replacing it with Victor Wierwille. He had ONE freak
Bolshevik
I can't say what Christian practices are. Any quote by LCM should be read as if he is yelling or at a low rumble leading up to the yelling . . . Certainly sounds like an inner conflict
What The Hay
Linda Z:
Mike:
Of course, that is not exactly what VPW said. What VPW said was, "The Bible does not contain God's Word; it is God's Word". (Life Lines, p3.) What's the difference in those phrases? Is there any difference? Both phrases sound and appear to be making the exact same sense, right? VPW clarifies this, as on the same page of Life Lines he says, "To most people the Word of God is just words; to us it is life." I'll comment on that later, but I’d first like to address the comment Mike made.
Mike:
It was more like he saw the greater or the overall picture from his working of God’s Word, although a piece or two may be missing – like putting together a complex puzzle. The majority of the puzzle has been put together. Since the majority of it is put together one can easily tell what the intended picture is, but then there is still a piece from a section missing. A piece of green grass will not fit into a blue sky regardless if that puzzle piece [in this case an original text] is from the same puzzle or from a different puzzle [from a different text]. Where it becomes challenging is when dealing with the same section of the puzzle (the same section of text or scripture) though. One must look more closely at the various shades of color and the edges of a piece to discover if that piece will fit into the larger section. A dark piece of blue sky doesn't fit into a section where it is light blue. Sometimes that can be easy to tell, and at times it is difficult, especially when the shades of color and shapes are extremely close. Working God’s Word by carefully examining the usage of words and rightly dividing it has been much like this.
I am using this puzzle analogy to illustrate another spiritual point as well. Take these two phrases for example: "The bible does not contain the word of God it is the word of God" and "The bible does not contain God's Word it is God's Word." On the surface both phrases appear to be expressing the same meaning, when what we are dealing with are "subtle and slightly different shades of color" from a grammatical sense.
Now in the natural world both those phrases and expressions may make no difference in sense, and naturally speaking they may not make any difference to anyone either, (and I suppose this could even make a good defense in a case for plagiarism) but in the spiritual world these expressions can easily make all the difference. Need proof? Don’t just take my word for it. Here’s the proof from the word of God.
In Acts 19 we read the record of the vagabond Jews, exorcists who took upon themselves to cast out evil spirits. I would venture to say they copycatted the apostle Paul to the very last word - maybe they even plagiarized him down to the very last letter. Just what did they say? They said, "We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth". (Acts 19:13) Sounds to me they were speaking and using the exact same words the apostle Paul did to cast out devils. The apostle Paul got results when he used those words, but what were these fellows’ results? One would think they should get the same results since they were using the exact same words the apostle Paul did. That seems “logical” enough to me. Some other religious fellows, seven sons of Sceva and the chief priests decided to follow suit.
Verse 15
And the evil spirit answered and said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are ye?"
Now that's a real good question to ask. Just who in the he** do you think you are? Some people have been out of TWI for years (from my observance at least) trying to accomplish something for God, while others have totally given up on God’s Word. Some people think they can accomplish things by copying VPW and his ministry, while there are those who believe they can accomplish something by altering things – i.e. teachings. Those people have always been around. They also show up here on GS Caf?ccasionally. But what has been the result these many years? The result is the same thing we see recorded in Acts. Those spirits have jumped on people and they too have fled - naked and wounded.
Just where has everybody that I knew in TWI, at least those who genuinely love God and His Word gone? Some are on the Internet complaining how TWI (more likely someone in TWI) left them naked and wounded. But we always hear about the naked and wounded (at least the physical side it seems) more than the spiritual side. The reason they haven’t touched the spiritual side is because they themselves are naked and wounded - spiritually speaking. The reason this is evident to me is because while some have endeavored to copy VPW and his ministry others are out attempting to alter it somehow by spreading rumors and gossip. Both groups are spiritually naked and wounded if you ask me.
I am now wondering if this thread will get to be as long as the “Mastering PFAL” thread. It’s already off to a good start. Mike’s back again with his “challenge to master PFAL” or he has already alluded to it. But I can’t blame anyone for not taking him up on the challenge. The reason I believe that, is because the fear is too great somebody might start up another copycat TWI ministry. God help us! Right? But then … I was taught we were the new dynamic church.
It appears nobody here is taking your challenge to master PFAL very seriously Mike. God forbid, “We adjure you by Jesus whom VPW preacheth!” (At least the one I think VPW is preaching.) Yes Sir. That’s exactly what has been happening for years now. It’s still happening inside and outside the corporate TWI structure and we’ve witnessed the same results many times over. The result - people have fled – naked and wounded. I am specifically addressing people who think in order to have God’s truth they either have to copy (parrot) what a man of God did, or they got to alter the revelation of God’s Word, but nobody really has the picture yet. It’s one thing to copy what someone has given you, then quite another to understand what you’ve been given. Believing comes from having a working and living understanding of the word of God. One doesn’t “arrive” simply by copying it or by copying someone else. That is why it’s very hard to believe VPW copied (plagiarized) it all, especially when his understanding of God’s Word was vastly different from those he supposedly copied (plagiarized) from.
Why argue the law of believing when that principle is ingrained right from the very first letter in the bible from Genesis 1:1 to the last letter in Revelation 22:21. The first letter in God’s Word is “I” and the last letter is “n”. One doesn’t get “In” the picture [one can call it God’s favor] parroting what another man (or woman) has done or by altering the revelation of God’s Word. The law of believing is written into every page, every word and every single letter of the bible.
Power For Abundant Living gives one the tools to rightly divide the Word of God. Just because someone is given tools doesn’t imply they will do the job properly, or that they will ever do the job. One can also be given tools and not know how to use them. I have seen PFAL grads who simply don’t know how to use the tools they were given in PFAL. I’ve witnessed it already in this thread where someone’s weak understanding and application of the principle of “first usage” they were initially given in PFAL was mishandled. I’ve seen grads of PFAL allow the tools they were given for rightly dividing God’s Word “get rusty”. But that isn’t the fault of PFAL. I know if I let incompetent workmen into my house to do repairs many things in my home would end up becoming altered. That’s no surprise. Things would look very different than what they should look like, and many things wouldn’t work at all. The same thing is true spiritually.
How effective is a workman who allows his tools to get rusty and useless? How effective is the workmen who doesn’t know how to properly use his tools? When a workman of the Word doesn’t properly use the tools to rightly divide God’s Word they end up doing one of two things: They end up copying another man and his ministry, or somehow the revelation of God’s Word becomes altered. But the results are still the same – one is left spiritually naked and wounded. Now I can’t say for certain Jesus is going to show up at the return with a PFAL book to judge anyone, but I do know for certain you and I will both have to give account of our workmanship. To you “apprentice” workmen who were also given the tools to rightly divide God’s Word, Jesus will appear more to you like Donald Trump and inform you, YOU’RE FIRED!
Some have become spiritually lazy and allowed themselves to become inept at rightly dividing God’s Word, while others weak in understanding the things of God don’t have anything left but jokes and Dr. Seuss rhymes to offer people; spiritually speaking. Well some may laugh, but I’m not laughing especially where people’s lives are at stake. Many of my brothers and sisters who love the true God are devastated by those whom they looked to for spiritual help now ridicule God’s Word into nothingness. Well, there will always be those who make light of the things of God, and then there will be those who treat the Word of God with contempt. But what can one expect from a hypocrite? It is part of the leaven the lord Jesus told his disciples to be aware of and also to avoid in Luke 12:1.
The word for hypocrisy is: hupokrisis. It is made up of two root words, hupo (means above or beyond) and krisis (meaning judgment). The word of God is the ultimate judge, it is the ultimate rule. A hypocrite is one who “breaks the rule” by placing themselves above and beyond the righteous judgment of the true God. They won’t be humble to it, as they’ve placed themselves outside, or above and beyond God’s authority. It can happen not only at top leadership levels inside the church, but also outside the church, for the same spirit is in the world. You know what I’m talking about - those who have said in their heart, “I’m my own man (or own woman). I have the final say for I answer to no one!”
Hopefully some of them who are here will wake up pretty soon, otherwise they might have a very rude awakening one day. It’s a sobering truth to those who love God, even if you believe it came out the mouth of a fool, “If you won’t be humble to the Word, you will be humbled by the world.” There are two Gods (the God and father of our lord Jesus Christ) and Satan, the god of this world. One always places themselves under the authority of either one - even the person who believes they are their own man or woman. They might not think they are under anyone’s authority, but then the devil, Satan himself, doesn’t think that way either. According to God’s Word he will have a rude awakening someday too.
Nobody can be argued into mastering PFAL anymore than one can argue someone into opening the bible and reading it. Why? Because when it comes to their (your) life, they (you) have the ultimate say as to what they (you) will spiritually allow and what they (you) wont. You have the authority in your life as to where you will get your spiritual nourishment. I can’t force someone into eating fish and pine nuts (although it is a healthy diet) onto somebody who is content with eating french-fries, cheeseburgers and high fat food all the time. There are areas in life where you have and can operate spiritual authority, and tehn there are areas where you don’t have any spiritual authority.
That is why understanding your realm of authority and walking in that realm is a major key to operating the law of believing effectively. Now don’t go complaining there isn’t such a law because you can’t believe big enough to create stars and planets. That’s not your realm of spiritual authority. There is a spiritual realm where you do have authority, and there is a realm where you don’t have any say or authority. If you tried to operate the law of believing in the realm where you have authority and still didn’t receive whatever it was you were believing for, it’s because God isn’t as stupid as you want Him to be. That’s all.
You are accountable to God to properly steward what you have been given. Why would God honor someone’s prayer and give them a bigger home, a bigger car, a bigger paycheck, etc. etc. etc. if they aren’t capable or faithful in stewarding what He has already given them? Stewarding what one already has is a burden more than enough for most people to bear, so a bigger car, bigger home and bigger paycheck would only end up being a bigger burden around their neck - that’s all. The reason people desire more and bigger things is because of the joy they believe those things will bring, but that joy is often short lived. They think having more things will soothe their souls troubled by fear and desire, but having more money and more things cannot do that. I know people who are filthy rich who are more afraid now then when they were poor – they are afraid of losing all their money. The fears that drove them to get rich only got worse while the weak and needy part of their soul is screaming louder and louder.
Well, it is remarkable Jesus would also mention covetousness in Luke 12. Shortly after telling his disciples to beware of hypocrisy he instructs them to beware of covetousness in verse 15. One characteristic doesn’t show up without the other does it? Jesus then tells them a man’s life doesn’t consist in the abundance of the things he possesses, but a hypocrite considers those things and the accumulation of worldly things to be very important. One of those things is social status and the authority and recognition of that position by other people. So it goes – just how many people can you get to jump whenever you bark? Money comes into play because money buys people. People become slaves to money because of the positions of power and the worldly recognition money often buys for them.
I trust I’ve given you a lot of “food for thought”. Some may digest what I’ve said, while others might choke on it. Some will decide to cut it up and hash it up because it’s different from the hypocrisy they’ve been feeding on and what they’ve been spiritually serving others for years. In their minds they could be saying, “Just who in the he** do you think you are?” To that I will only answer, “I am what God’s Word says I am. I am not pretending to be anything more or less, because one day I will have to stand before the lord and give account of my workmanship.” I certainly can’t speak for you or for anyone else, because that is outside my realm of spiritual authority.
I am sure there are people who still want to address the errors in PFAL. People also wanted to do that while VPW was alive. Now that he’s dead and gone (and fewer competent workmen of God’s Word are available) they believe there are errors in it simply because their position is not being challenged like it used to be. When the boss isn’t around, incompetent workmen slack off and take a holiday. Since they ended up having a lot of “run-in’s” with the boss, they go off running and whining to their colleagues complaining what a raw deal the boss handed them.
Since the boss isn’t around, the slackers (mistakenly) think they don’t have to give account of their workmanship. It’s the: “I am my own man, my own woman syndrome. Sorry it doesn’t work that way. God is our ultimate “Boss”. VPW understood that principle - that one day he would ultimately have to give account of his workmanship. He placed his work under God’s authority, and he put it in writing for everyone to take note of. He wrote, “I have written up my years of research not to be argumentative; neither am I apologetic. I simply want to set forth my study as a workman for God, realizing that if the research is a right dividing of God’s Word, many who will believe will be blessed. If my research is a wrong dividing of God’s Word, then I stand before God as an unapproved workman. Either way I accept full responsibility”. (Page 3 of JCING.)
He never told you or me we would be responsible for his workmanship, so where do people get the idea it is their responsibility to pick out the “errors in PFAL” - especially when we are not responsible for his workmanship? Man oh man, what a relief it is to understand that! If people were as genuinely concerned about their own spiritual workmanship as they want you to believe they are about VPW’s, they wouldn’t have time to pick apart his workmanship - they’d be more concerned what the boss thinks of theirs. But they got to point out the errors and magnify them because they’re afraid you’ll end up focusing on their lousy workmanship. Why should anyone give a rats a** what you have to say about PFAL anyway – good or bad? God is the one who will be handing out our paychecks and rewards, not any of you!! Just who in the he** do you think you are?
To most people, the Word of God is just words, (words to argue and strive with people about) but to us it is life. You and I are supposed to study to show ourselves (we’re not to make somebody else) approved unto God. (2 Timothy 2:15) You can’t make anyone stand approved unto God by arguing PFAL, God’s Word, the Bible or anything else for that matter with them. It’s not within your realm of spiritual authority to make someone stand approved unto God, so why even try to operate there? What a waste of precious time, time that can never be recovered. It’s nothing but hypocrisy, and all that does is create strife among people. When one spiritually grows up into understanding that, it will cause them to be at peace – not only with their neighbor but with their enemies as well. God bless you all.
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Oakspear
I have recently been notified that during this month there are tens of thousands of math classes running, simultaneously.
Hoorah!!!
Isn't that great?
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Oakspear
WTH:
Two points:
1. No one is claiming that all of PFAL is plagiarized, some of us have pointed out that some of it clearly is. In some places he takes things farther than those he stole from, in others he arguably doesn't understand his source material.
2. The "Actual Errors" list was not started to debunk PFAL, or to judge it deficient, but to debunk Mike's assertion that it was god-breathed and free of error. The poster who started the AE thread thinks highly of PFAL, although he doesn't subscribe to all of its contents
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Mike
Well folks, I have to make hay while the sun shines here in San Diego, so my available time is very short to deal with the pile on, or the pile up, of posts here in this thread. I see that personal attacks are still the M.O. of some. I feel much more challenged by posts that deal with the substance of the issue. When I see my personal life the focus of posts here I know the writer is stumped on the real issue of the soundness of PFAL. This is all the more the case when that focus on me gets nasty and derogatory. I feel no challenge when the subject is me.
What the Hay, I look forward to reading your long post better than the light skim I've had time for it so far.
HCW, I noticed that you avoided answering my question about your only rule for faith and practice, but I already know what the general form of the answer is. If the answer were "yes" you'd have said so, and proudly posted it's Library of Congress number(s). But I see it's "no" and you wing it just like everyone else. You decide which way you will modify your KJV, NIV, or whatever version you use. You decide which critical Greek texts to lean on in which situations. You decide which theologians (or combinations of their research tools) you'll accept for any passages too difficult for you alone. If at some time later you detect a change in the wind, you'll decide which past perspectives of yours you will change for any particular verses.
This is what nearly everyone does, OR they find someone else to do the same process for them.
You have no God-breathed, unalterable, physically existing standard outside of your own brain. You yourself make all the doctrinal decisions in your life. Your only rule for faith and practice is whatever you happen to be thinking at the present time that suits your fancy and makes you feel like you're following God.
I'm addressing this to you because you're the new guy here, but nearly everyone with natural leadership capabilities does it here, as well as elsewhere.
This is how Dr opens up his last book, "Order My Steps In Thy Word," Chapter One, which is titled "GOD ALMIGHTY—EL SHADDAI"
"There are some men in this world who are willing for God to be the God of heaven, but they are not willing for Him to be the God on earth. The Lord’s Prayer says, 'Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.' Although the prayer says, 'Thy will be done in earth,' most people want their own wills to be done here on earth.
"Man’s reasoning—no matter how enlightened or how logical he may believe that he is—will never give man a true knowledge of God. Only the revelation from God in His Word does that. In order to see the greatness of our God as the 'Almighty God,' we must observe God’s revelation of Himself."
If God doesn't give us this revelation of Himself, and we only have theologians to try and reconstruct, translate, and interpret the lost ancient scriptures for us, then we can never have a true spiritual knowledge of God. We may get a few accurate 5-senses things to juggle and entertain ourselves, but nothing that threatens the rule of the adversary. If God does step into the situation to fix the problem, but we reject His revelation of Himself, His Word, and His will, then we likewise will never really, spiritually, know Him.
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Greek2me
WTH, for the most part I agree with what you posted, however, there is one thing you said that is simply innaccurate, at least to my understanding of the things of God.
PFAL never gave anybody any tools to "rightly divide the Word of God". If anything, it outlined a few principles that brother Weirwille thought important while at the same time indoctrinating the student into his particular partial, flawed, take on the Bible.
The Scriptures are made known by revelation. Period. The Holy Spirit of God does the revealing and the recipient doesn't even have to be born again. Surely you've read that Peter and John were unlearned and ignorant men. Literally, they were illiterate. This negates the proposition that "Study to show thyself approved..." has anything to do with research tools.
This study, simply means to be diligent, be careful, pay attention cause this is important. NOT "master the collaterals" or "work the word and make it your own".
The right dividing of the word belongs to HIM who is the word, and to whom said word belongs.
Consider the following people (unfortunately, I'm at work right now and don't have a Bible program on my computer, however, all of the examples I'll sight are verifiable, what's more, I'm certain most people reading this message will be familiar enough with the Scriptures to recognize these occasions.) If there are any mistakes when I quote Scripture, it is do to the fact that I am doing this from (faulty, fleshy) memory.
When Jesus asked His apostles "But whom do you say that I am"? after the dispute regarding exactly who he was crept into their group. Peter answered, "Thou are the Christ, the Son of the Living God." To which Jesus responded by saying "blessed art thou Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto you, but my Father which is in heaven".
The right dividing of the word was accomplished by revelation. NOT pfal tools.
Recall the two as they walked along the road to Aremea. How did they receive the knowledge of the truth? By revelation. NOT pfal tools.
Paul's knowledge of the mystery, according to his testimony in Ephesians was received by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Paul went on to say that when we read, we may have the same knowledge that he had. This requires (if it is to be the same knowledge) the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today, and forever. He will be revealed to those who genuinely seek to know Him.
Think of all those who knew Him before pfal was even put together after being smurfed from the various men of God the majority of the material was taken from. Were they somehow innadequately equipped to get the job done because they didn't have the right tools (pfal) to rightly divide the word of truth? I think not.
Sorry, got to go right now. Amazing, but even brother Weirwille according to Mike's last post, happened to agree.
originally posted by Mike
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Ham
Perhaps this is a fair assessment.. perhaps not.
It is so ridiculous, maybe that's all one can do- laugh.
Honestly. Here we have a class on "basic keys". OK.. I'll give it that much credit. I still hold a lot of what I learned in it pretty useful and valid.
But. How many times do you teach a toddler the "basics" of going potty? All the way through adolescence and beyond? Lets see.. the "toddler" is now forty five years old, and somehow you must call him up every five minutes, reminding him of the "accuracy" of his potty teaching long ago.
Cripe. When can people be allowed to grow up? Really. Personally, I do not believe that the walk in Christ is that hard, that dumfoundedly anally detailed, or bound so tightly in a MANS teaching and opinion that it is impossible to really walk with God without "mastering" every frigging detail.
Abraham walked with God. God just said "go" and he went.. may have taken a few years to figure out a few details, but holy smokes- he didn't sit around trying to "master" the definition of what "go" meant. Same for lots of other folks.
Fine. You've "mastered" all Dr's teachings about "redemption". Wonderful. What in the he** are you doing with it? Where are you "going" in life?
It sounds no better to me than a new, improved, modern form of "christian" phariseeism. You know every friggin detail, but what are you doing with it? Not only do some mull over every stinking detail, they insist that the rest of us do the same. Again, and again, and again.. and you'll never "arrive", you'll never "go".
Honestly, I'd rather give you Dr. Seuss rhymes.
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alfakat
Mr. H -- well spoken. This is waddahayseed's MO here -- come in declaring, by fiat, his total understanding of ALL things and his reproof for ALL. I guess he thinks he is JC's little bother or sumpn'....
His gassy, wind-bag diatribes are perfect examples of why twit, piffle and vpw are yesterday's news, old and tired.
waddahay-- where is your great ministry of deliverance??? with all your smarts, certainly you can do far more than vp......
""Why should anyone give a rats a** what you have to say ... anyway – good or bad?"" eat your own words, klown...guess you cannot count high enough to know how many fingers you are pointing at yourself, eh???
ps after re-reading your little self-styled "Jeremiahd" you might want to tone down the volume a tad -- you sound a lot like those attempting to pick out motes without the benefit of self-cleaning first....YMMV
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Ham
Just in case you misunderstood.. Galen, by all means you are not among my comments about "some people".
Cripe.. if somebody can get something good out of it, it does not bother me in the least.
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George Aar
All things considered, I think I'd rather go to Laleo's church.
In fact, I may already be.
I find the main proponent of "PFAL is The Bible for our day and time" line of reasoning to be a particularly troubling individual. He reminds me of the guy we see every so often on the evening news, being led away in handcuffs after committing some unspeakable act, yelling indecipherable rants about the "anti-Christ" or God's judgement or other supernatural truths known only to him. I'm sure that guy is absolutely convinced of his doctrine as well.
Scary...
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Ham
George, I agree. I have found it a lot nicer than what the boneheads in TWI said it would be.
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Tom Strange
Laleo's post was great... Mike, give it a try...
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laleo
Wow. My own church. This is overwhelming. I've never had disciples before. Or even a following. I didn't even know anyone was reading my posts. I don't know where to begin, beings that I'm in no condition to conquer the world at the moment, what with being all congested and achy and sneezy and stuffy and fuzzy and all, but as soon as I'm feeling better, we should organize a planning committee and start accepting tithes and all that. The first thing we'll need is money, then we can decide on a set of precepts. You in, George? Tom? Mr. Hammeroni? WordWolf? (Should we invite Mike?) Oh, the possibilities.
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George Aar
Say the magic words and I'm in.
(the magic words being "George Aar, secretary/treasurer")
I'm starting out on top this time. I ain't making that same mistake twice...
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laleo
Sure, George, you can be on top. Works for me. But, hey, aren't we getting a little ahead of ourselves?
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ChattyKathy
laleo, I'll make sure all the chairs are out of order. And see all the toilet paper rolls don't have those little triangle thingees. And any other job you can think of would be fine by me.
:)-->
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WordWolf
Sure.
Just launder my funds into a little retirement account,
and I'll go on sabbatical until we're done.
(On sabbatical from my other gig-Archbishop of the First Global
Church of the Werewolf.)
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Too Gray Now
laleo,
you said...
You certainly described the whole thing very well
:)-->
Someone talked about getting your new church funded - I think it was Flip Wilson who used to play the part of the Pastor Leroy of the "Church of What's Happenin' NOW!"
He said stuff like, "You can't gamble, because you MIGHT loose! Amen! And if you Loose, then that means you will want to play again to win it ALL back - and THEN Some!!! That leads to vengance, and vengance and lust is a powerful, powerful, sin combination!!!"
"Save that gamblin' money and put it in the collection plate!!" "The Lord givith...
... and the Church of What's Happenin' Now - taketh away!"
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laleo
Thank you, Kathy. I'll be counting on you to keep us all indecent and disorderly.
WordWolf: You can keep your title. Just not your wallet.
Too Gray Now: Years ago, when I would watch spoofs like that, I would cringe, just a little, in recognition. Then I'd quickly talk myself out of what I must have known on some level to be true. Nah, they couldn't have been describing us. No way. Now I feel like I'm part of the Church of What Happened When.
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Oakspear
Can I be the lackey who drives the cushman?
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ChattyKathy
That is one of the nicest things ever said to me, because I love the whole idea of doing just that. Thank you laleo 'cause your words know me. Geez, did that hurt you as much to read as it did me....LMAO!
:D-->
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Mike
I'd like to apply for the position of the mad prophet who screams that everyone has it all wrong and that everything is going to hell in a handbasket.
I come with references, and with two years of experience documented in writing.
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laleo
CK: It didn't hurt at all. Please continue.
Yeah, Mike, I'd say you're well-qualified for the "mad prophet" position, except I'm not so sure "prophet" is a fitting description. Truth be told, I don't think you're "mad" either, although I do wonder why you so stubbornly disregard relevant input from people who are not only intelligent, but also caring, and just as familiar with "Doctor's" writings as you are.
Never mind. On second thought, you're not qualified. How 'bout you play the part of the meek, hungry searcher, and listen again to what your peers here at GreaseSpot are saying? Maybe, just maybe, you'll benefit from some of the collective wisdom and experience here.
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ChattyKathy
Mike if laleo has any kind of release sessions and we group up you can't be in mine. You would freak me out man. You really should take a nice long weekend and go lay in the sun by the water or something.
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HCW
Yeah Mike, what Laleo said.
Nice try, electing yourself to prophet status, that is.... I tend to agree w/ Laleo, especially when he mentioned the word "peers."
For the record, I don't see myself as higher, or better that you or anyone else here, there or anywhere. I do take my "position" as a WC grad seriously, and therefore define myself in terms of being "leadership" as being your servant (by Jesus' definition).
That being said. As it relates to this topic, I've simply been places, seen & heard & participated in things concerning it that you were not privvy to Mike. For example: Did you know that the first class of the year in the Way Corps is an "advanced" version of PFAL (at least it was when I was there & until LCM replaced the class with his own) that included more detail, background & etc. concerning it? Then we took the rest of the series, all of 'em.
This is what was going on when, as mentioned on other threads, the disturbing videos (like the dogs having sex w/ women video) were shown. The idea was to give us a more in-depth view of the materials than what was done on the field. Theory being that we, as "leadership," should have the most up-to-date and in-depth knowledge of the materials available.
PFAL was the foundation of what we were taught but the center and nucleus of all the teachings revolved around Corps Night. Do you even know what Corps Night is Mike?
Just in case. Corps Night was three hours of teaching every Wednesday where VPW would teach a book from the Bible line by line, word by word. In essence it was like having VPW, himself, sit with you and do a word study on every word in whichever book of the Bible he was working on at the time.
My Corps group, the 11th, was the last WC group ever to have Vp teach Corps night live to for both of our in-residence years. They would do a conference call and he would teach live to all of the in-residence locations from wherever he was on Wednesday. At the time I felt fortunate that we were taught (again I emphasize one word or phrase at a time) Romans, Ephesians, and Thessalonians. We also got Philippians and a couple of other short NT books.
Speaking of experience, hmm... lets calculate about 46 weeks per year, multiplied by 3 hours per week; by two years equals over 275 HOURS of BIBLE teachings, line by line, word by word; LIVE w/ VPW. Add to this the MONTH we took going through the 40 hours of PFAL, adding the additional, advanced info. Weeks of the Intermediate class, then the Advanced Class, in the Corps with all AC grads. We took the film versions then had extra teachings on stuff, & we had extra videos, presentations, etc. ... ot was the same class as on the field, just additional support & background material.
In ALL of that VP never ONCE, no not EVER did he mention, teach, insinuate, intimate or anything else did he EVER even BEGIN to say, in ANY way, shape, or form that his PFAL materials were a God-Breathed replacement for the Bible. Nope, nada, zip, zilcho, nein, nunca, NO!!! Mike, not once.
He didn't say we should "master PFAL" either. Nor did he teach us PFAL, line by line, word by word. He didn't even teach PFAL to us live, nor was he even a part of the classes we had in it. Corps night was his baby, it was the last thing he held on to concerning the WC training.
Isn't it reasonable to conclude that if the man who taught it didn't refer to it in the manner you do, at the "inner sanctum" - PRIVATE, "leadership only" teachings, that he just din't see it as you do? Come on Mike, there were over 500 people who started out in our group alone. Don't you think one or two would have picked up on this God-Breathed thing?
I guess that again, my proximity to Vp, the fact that I sat through well over 200 hours of his most in-depth teachings of the three most important doctrinal epistles in the Bible - - the fact that I still have my notes from all of those teachings, plus written copies of the transcripts from Ephesians & a couple others. Not to mention the transcript from the opening night of our Corps training where the thought was that Vp's teaching that night was SO significat to our futures that the WPD typed every word from the tape and the BOT gave it to us as a gift (stop & breathe HC...
:)-->)....
I guess that disqualifies me as being able to determine Vp's status w. God. Right?
To quote Groucho, "That's the most rediculous thing I ever heard!" - - So, I guess now you won't say it.
Experience, documentation! The evidence to refute your position is so overwhelming I don't have words to express, how overwhelming it is.
Laleo was wrong about one point. I'm personally more familiar w/ "Dr's" writings than you'll EVER be. If all you have is his books, you only have a fraction of his written materials on the subject.
Besides, what you refer to as his "last, lost teaching" wasn't and isn't lost at all. Craig threw it away. I still have my copy of the SNS tape Vp. did. Again, in a box in the basement.
I actually agree with some aspect of your position, believe it or not. I do believe that PFAL has a singular significance as far as Bible teachings go. I don't know of another class in the world that empahsizes God's having used figures of speech to aid on the Bible interpreting itself, as PFAL does. I do believe that lack of understanding of figures used in the Bible is a glaring weakness among the organized Christian faith worldwide.
I do believe there are some relevant aspects of PFAL that should not be "lost." BUT. I also believe there are others, individuals, and ministries that teach "everything" that PFAL has to offer.
I'm taking Alpha right now. It covers everything PFAL does without the TWI spin and is a WONDERFUL foundational class for Christian seeking a personal relationship with God and Jesus our savior. It even goes BEYOND PFAL in that Alpha builds relationship with the people who take the class in a GODLY manner. We eat together before evey session. The teachings are all less than an hour (after 80 minutes human resistance to the message and the ability to actually learn breaks down psychologically).
The Alpha class even includes a weekend retreat (which IS an accurate term, no matter what LCM thinks) called "The Holy Spirit and You" where, even though its taught as "gifts of the Spirit" people do actually recieve AND manifest, including speaking in tongues. It happens like it did in Acts.
AND while you were preparing your "HCW can't answer my question gloat" statement, HCW was actually attending a two day presentation, that my church hosted (and people from many other churches attended) called "Answers in GENESIS." ( Answers in Genisis . org) AIG is a FANTASTIC organization, "a nondenominational Christian ministry dedicated to upholding the Word of God from the very first verse. The ministry provides seminars, lectures, and programs to the general public, colleges, universities, and churches on the topic of origins. The ministry publishes Creation magazine, and offers numerous books, tapes, and other materials on this and related topics."
The two evenings of their presentaion will blow you away with the simplicity of the evidence that the Bible IS true. They Biblically answer questions concerning everything from how old the Earth is, when did dinosaurs live, how did we get "races" of people, Noah & the ark, what about "the missing link," what about fossil evidence of man's evolution from apes, where did eveoltionary teaching come from? etc.
The even have a "Creation museum" they are currently building that illustrates what God says about the creation of life & is there life on other planets. In a word its incredible. They even publish their financials on the web free for all to see (they did a little over $9 mil in 2003, btw).
So Mike, when I say it's crazy to believe what you do about PFAL, it isn't any personal tirade against you. I wasn't avoiding your rediculous questions. I just have volumes of experiences and information and DOCUMENTATION to the contrary. Unfortunately, perhaps for you Mike, I'll never share one word of my "private conversations w/ VPW" with you concerning his views on PFAL. I could scan pages from my notes from hundreds of hours of "personal" teachings (yes. I believe that if I'm in a room where someone is teaching a group, he's talking to me, personally) and send them to you.
But I won't. You have proven to me that this quest has little to nothing to do with PFAL, Vp and definately not God. I no longer see you as a basically good guy who is passionate about his position. Your posts lack the requisite level of honesty for me to see you that way. What I see is your consistant and constant attempts to exault yourself. I see you using PFAL as a means to draw attention to yourself. I see you eloquently but viciously slashing away at all who don't agree to accept your position.
I see all those things as demonic behavior, evil at its root and very nature. You speak of God's word with SO much contempt. No bones about it, I do NOT accept your dubious distinction between the Bible and God's word. In fact I see right through it.
If we were to reject the Bible, in favor of PFAL, we could NEVER get to God's will via PFAL alone, it simply does not cover ENOUGH of the Bible. I see all of your pedantic ramblings as a means to your expected end - - that we throw away our primary source of acquiring God's word and will for life in favor of a MAN.
A man who, at BEST forsook - - threw away his ministry from God ... a chance to "teach The Word as is hasn't been known for centuries." He spit in God's face, threw away any faithfulness he had ever earned, for WHAT? NOOKIE? A chance to "do" some "hot chicks." When I, IF I see VP in heaven I will walk up to him and slap his face - - with my LEFT hand. (IF you've MASTERED PFAL you'll know what that means.... Do YOU?)
At the worst Vp was a lecherous, sadistic, freak of a human, as evil as Cain, "that wicked one who slew his own brother." He could very well be the guy who used all of his teachings, life experiences, etc. in a self-serving attempt to "get over" on the whole freakin' world, God included. He could have ONLY been out to exault his own throne above the star, God.
For all I know of him, VPW, the times I spent w/ him personally, the 10 years of my life I specifically spent using MY God-Given Talents to build HIS "ministry" et. al. I HONESTLY CAN'T TELL you difinitively, which one he was; The fallen MOG drawn away of his own lusts, enticed; or the personification of evil. The fruit of his life suggests BOTH. SInce "no man knows the things of a man..." I can't say.
I can say however, of YOU, Mike, I have NO evidence of fruit from your life other than your trying relentlessly to drag me into your version; your self-constructed, "no lose" (for you); "no win" (for me) debate. All you've done is rebuke and debunk EVERYTHING I've said. No body in a debate is 100% wrong, yet you have not accepted a SINGLE point I've made. You have selectively chosen to address things I've said.
All you've done is tell me about a bunch of different ways nobody should believe me. My eye witness account DISQUALIFIES my POV of what I witnessed?
INSANE.
EVIL.
When I told you to stop I was referring to stopping the madness.
You rejected even that.
In so doing you spouted off with dishonest references to your heresy. That's why others felt they should update me. They wanted me to know what I'm actually dealing with. Trust ME. I KNOW precisely who, or should I say WHAT I'm dealing with.
Now I'm REJECTING - - YOU. Get away from me, STAY away from me. Address my posts if you wish. We all already know what you'll say.
All you have done with your years spent on this subject it talk yourself into believing it. OF COURSE, if anybody looks at it the same way you do and follws the same path you did they will talk themselves into believing YOUR BS as well.
THAT is how brainwashing works! FORCING one's mind down a path of insanity tears away at the sanity, "Don't ye know that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump???"
NO. I'm NOT gonna accept your pedantic questions from YOUR point of view and ONLY answer them as YOU say I should. STAY the HELL outta my head. I will ADDRESS your statements, IF and when I want to, IF I want to and will comment on them as I see fit.
Like NOW.
YES. I DO have a source outside my own brain that guides me. Its called Holy Spirit. Keep your insults in the garage, OK? "Wing it, sming it."
There is NO such thing as an unalterable PHYSICAL standard. ALL physical things are temporal and alterable by DEFINITION in that they, as ALL physical things, MY BRAIN included, are in a constant state of deterioration.
I am the final judge of NOTHING. However I DO determine what I DO and do NOT believe, and OBEY. GOD told me I can and should do that. He also told me I'd be "more noble than" others IF I searche the SCRIPTURES (not PFAL) whether things I'm taught of Him are so. I do THAT.
This is a ...., trick question similar to the ones Satan used to try and trap Jesus in (matthew 4) and the pharasees used elsewhere in the gospels.Can you explain to anyone how the F@$K you can get "a set of authoritive WRITINGS" outside of the physical realm?
I perceivest that thou watchest to mucheth STAR TREK. Spirits don't use PENS, you freakin idiot. What in hell do you take me for? (literally.) I'm certainly not EMBARRASSED to say I don't go transportatin' around "other realms" looking for my "only rule for faith & practice." Life isn't Monty Python's search for "The Holy Graile."
You make a mockery of God with your rediculous "questions."
BESIDES, theat "only rule for faith & practice" thing is NOT Biblical! At best IT is a figure of speech to emphasize the place the Bible should have in our lives above ALL other BOOKS.
GOD says, "...the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; " (Romans 1:20)
THEREFORE; I can learn about invisible things concerning GOD from looking around in the PHYSICAL realm. You can't even SEE spirit anyway, smarty pants.
When I read my Bible, God, who is Spirit speaks to me as I read it; via my spirit, His gift to me that gives me LIFE eternal. Spiritual things are LIFE as GOD sees it; one can ONLY receive and then discern spiritual things via the spirit, NOT PFAL, not a Bible or any other book.
(1 Corinthians 2:14)
However, if one actually IS alive, as in living with Holy Spitit IN him, he can then see, understand, and discern spiritual matters... otherwise Godly spiritual concepts seem foolish to him. That is a mathematically precise statement in that the precise opposite of it is true also.
When one DOES have the spirit living in him Godly spiritual things have a "ring" of truth to him. Is YOUR "bell ringin'" Mike?
What I find interesting Mike; is how well your God-breathed PFAL thing fits w/ Romans chapter 1:21 - 25
" Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, (thinking PFAL can replace the Bible.) and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, (VPW? Corruptable???) and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,(PFAL writings replacing the glory of God's written word) and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, (Bible? You don't need no stinking BIBLE!) and worshipped and served the creature (VPW) more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."
VPW certainly wasn't "blessed for ever."
Should I go on? I don't think we want to get into the next steps down from there Mike. The next verses are the inevitable steps down the same path.
You're thinking your life would end if you abandon this quest for PFAL?
At least you were polite about it.
As VP said so often, "Sincerity is no guarantee for truth." As it was so eloquently pointed out to you (and YOU avoided addressing...Oh, yeah, YOU're TOO busy, making a living...) YOUR life will not end if you abandon this Mike. You may end the "life" of whatever (or should I say WHOMever) is influencing you, but your life will go on.
You could even sign up for an internet dating thing and find someone equally "nerdy" as yourself in every way. (God knows they are out there.) You may just hit the jackpot & find someone who'll be willing to touch you... hold your hand as you walk on one of those beautiful San Diego beaches. Nerds kiss & even "do the nasty," too if you spent HALF of your online time on "eHarmony.com" Who knows? You could find "Mrs. Mikey" in no time. People do it every day, you know.
A suggestion: Don't tell her you think that if we get a quorem of people who've "mastered" (at your request) a discontinued Bible Class (that people only offer under direct threat of copyright infringement by the dangerous CULT who owns it but won't offer it themselves) the the quorem of enough folks will ring a bell in heaven and Jesus will come back with an orange hard-cover book in his hands. (Not to mention charts in the clouds, corny angel jokes and stories of scarlet drapes om the throneroom of heaven.)
Mrs. "just as wrong as everybody else" just MIGHT not be able to get with all that.
GEEZ. My longest post ever. I guess I DIDN'T want to be brief, Huh?
Edited by hcwalker58Link to comment
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