I dunno. I'd say it's more like simple minds that want to know.
That's OK- describes me pretty much exactly. It took me over twenty years to figure out that there was something wrong with the concept of owing my all and all to a stinking "ministry". Took me about five years to figure out that the guy who could just plain scream really loud was not necessarily as spiritual as he claimed. Call me slow, call me simple- probably a pretty honest assessment.
Actually, in my "witnessing days" I found it TOO EASY to dismiss these kind of questions.
Too easy to think "small minds want results". "We do not see then believe, we believe THEN see the power of God.. etc, etc". No results? You must not be "believing". Real convenient excuse- just never can be the product- we want to be able to sell that. Easier and more convenient for people with problems to dissappear in the night.
There were times I "believed" and good stuff happened. There were times I "believed" and some real bad crap STILL happened. Results- isn't that what its all really about? What's it really doing for you?
Ole Doc did say one thing: "If you say you can jump over the barn, and you can really DO IT you're not bragging". Unfortunately, I did not see him jump over very many "barns".
Half of the doctrine issue is practical. How do you PRACTICE it? Legitimate question. I showed you my "results"- and PFAL contributed a small percentage. Some worked. A certain percentage of PFAL resulted in catastrophe. Show me yours. Show me what it did for you. That of course was the real deal that was supposed to get people in the class- even back then.. tell them what it did for you.
I'm not bitter, I'm not "....ed off", I'm not even slightly ornery at the time. I'm not even in particular trying to pick a fight.
All I'm saying, with all the mastering, all the study, all the etc., if it works, if it is worthwhile, you've gotta be seeing some results.
What are they?
When I was a first-class witnesser, I could dodge quite a few questions fairly well back then. I remember giving some pretty lame claims- "well, I finally have peace of mind", "I finally know who I am in Christ" or "well, I can understand some of the Bible that I previously did not". All so vague, so subjective.. some folks thought I was more peaceful if I'd just take a couple demerols or something.
`
People would say, "If you can DO the miracles, why am I not hearing about it?" It's really an honest question. If you can, by "mastering" the materials, believe to do the function of a Prophet- where are the results? No healing ministry in your area? Why not "master" the healing section in your advanced class sylabus and have at it? March in the hospital, and clear it out? Mind you, I am not questioning God Almighty- I know He can heal- I know he can energize healings- but I am questioning PEOPLE.
By the way, ever even SEEN a healing ministry? You wouldn't miss it if you were deaf and had both eyes closed. Kind of like God says, "lets just take off the gloves- forget the "rules", have at em' kid". Literally- "cleaning out the hospitals". Kind of like Acts- the healed when the SHADOW of Peter hit them. No "bragging" there, he pulled it off. Same with Paul in Acts 19.
Doesn't happen very often.
My point- can't "educate" yourself enough to do it. Can't renew the mind enough- can't work hard enough. Can't "master" it- either got it, or you don't. Either God's given it to you or HE hasn't. It's GRACE if it happens- and it's GOD'S choice. Absolutely not guaranteed. I don't have big enough of a brain to figure out why.
No results? PFAL must be highly over-rated. Like a nice catalog- you can drool over the pictures- but alas, you lack the wherewithal. I remember when I was a kid- kind of "geeky" I'd admit- I DROOLED over the Edmund Scientific Co. catalog. That's OK I guess- but it didn't get me the stuff. If I got that high power laser, I'd a probably just shot my eye out with it anyway..
If you read back a little- you'll find what I found that worked, and what didn't. I'm probably nuts for posting some of the stuff. But its my life- learned a few things at least.
But, really- what are you trying to do? To SELL it. I've even seen some folks get a few results from some parts of it- myself included. I just wouldn't call it "miracle soap". You know, soap that'll do EVERYTHING. Perfect soap. Soap of the ages..
Soap that'll give you anything, or everything- guaranteed.
The trouble with all this, I have never seen any of this kind of soap live up to its claims.
"Darn people were just too dirty, its their fault".
I did not make the claim. I'll accept the claim- now let's see it DO something. The best advertising is done with demonstration. Words are nice, but lets see what it can do.
Really- if its "The Word as it has not been known since the first century" it should get the same results as the word known IN the first century.
Asking for verification of claims is neither vulgar, or rude.
Reminds me of the "good old days" before the American Medical Association set up shop.
Anybody who WANTED to would simply hang out on a shingle, "Doctors Office". Forget that they had not even SEEN a neked body, no less knew what was inside of it. Forget the fact that at best, their experience consisted of working on a couple horses and a mule. And they would argue vehemently against those who questioned their "qualifications". Nay-sayers were labeled "troublemakers" and worse.
Wouldn't work today. People learned a few things.
Results, results.. maybe I'm just harping too much.. maybe not. Maybe a couple of ole Doc's herbal remedies may help my cold, but don't get near me with the bone saw- I just may be having a bad day- I don't need my leg cut off.
Uncomfortable as it may be, credentials were made to be questioned- or verified. Go in any prominent Doctors office- look on the wall. Anybody with a degree from a diploma mill does not stay open for long, if he opens at all.
One of my all time favorite movies- "The Inlaws"- not the new one- the one filmed in the eighties- Peter Falk asking the dentist after looking at all the paper hanging on the wall- "so, do you know what all this really means?"
"Well, yes- it means that I am not going to go to jail for practicing medicine without a license"- heh heh.
Anymore- anybody hanging out a shingle- "I've got all the answers" or some such nonsense, gives me the "willies". Some of them threaten to send people to hell when they ask for qualifications.
Others, simply call you dense or unloving. Shame on you, bad, bad person. You're just like Thomas. How unloving.
Jesus was the "real thing"- whether Thomas was wrong or not, he ACCOMMODATED him. "Go ahead. take a look. Stuff your fingers through my hand. My side. See for yourself". But "Well, after the resurrection, I am just so peaceful now, and can "renew" my mind" would not have gone very far.
I guess I'm just a bad, bad person.
So I re-issue my inquiry- where are the results? What has it done for you? Others have answered- and I would not call them counterfiet, or stupid, for that matter.
Like the cops have a guy pulled over for speeding. "Let's see your license". "How dare you ask for my credentials! If you persist, you will go to hell". "Maybe so, but if I don't see your licence, you will go to jail".
Okay, so if you can't sleep maybe you should read another thread.
Seems to me there was loads of room to lead us to lay the blame at our feet when we failed. And sometimes that is right on, it is our failure plain and simple. But to hold a gun to our heads and demand we agree it had to be our lack when the opposite was true if a leader had failure was just plain wrong! How could it be the leader was SO GREAT A BELIEVER STANDING IN THE GAP and being attacked for it while it was us who failed to not be strong enough not to be attacked? Geez!
Well maybe I can put all these words of y'all's out of my head and sleep. Yeah right! --> :)-->
"How could it be the leader was SO GREAT A BELIEVER STANDING IN THE GAP and being attacked for it while it was us who failed to not be strong enough not to be attacked? Geez!"
Just mark up another on to "da accuracy" of PFAL- or whatever "the present truth" happens to be now. I guess they've gotta live with themselves somehow- funny how things look when its THEIR life.
Funny how leadership refused to place the blame for non-performing doctrine at their own doorstep- but if you dared to have a failure, woe unto you.
These jokers saw and had failure upon failure- and still refuse to see the light- despite lack of results- and despite HORRIBLE results- year after year. They've bought into it- but you'd think after hitting your head on the wall enough times, you'd learn a lesson. No wonder they turned so friggin mean. No wonder I was so mean at times.
Its more frustrating than it looks- trying to figure everything out, trying to figure out where to place the blame. Some of us wake up, I guess some of us don't..
I tend to think of blame in a soft sense. I've posted on this before and it was not well received, but here goes again.
First of all, the myriad of incidences where something went wrong and someone got blamed, whether rightly or wrongly, I want to look away from. The everyday minor failures are not what I focus on. What I look at is the general overall failure of us grads at becoming The Word, at becoming spiritual beings, at becoming Jesus Christ men and women.
Still, it is a soft blame I have in mind here. Our culpability is in our being human... merely human... natural man human. The rule is that people act like body and soul animals most of the time, and the exception is when someone rises above that and acts in A SUPERNATURAL mode. An even greater exception is for someone to rise up and stay at the spiritual level. And then, the grand exception of them all is where a class of many thousands of grads ALL rise up to become The Word made flesh. It is here that we "failed" and yet it is here that I firmly believe we can still succeed. The 1942 intervention by God is that big, that He is inviting us up to His level by way of the teaching that He, Almighty God, placed in those written PFAL teachings.
HCW, there's your answer above, in general terms.
I should search my files for my previous three answers to the same question: why PFAL?
In a nutshell, and being more specific, I expect that by mastering the written forms of PFAL we will get sharper at hearing God's direct still small voice. I see PFAL as the arena for us learning the revelation manifestations (and then the impartation) like they have not been known since the first century.
Once we get good at recognizing God's voice, and rejecting the counterfeits, then He can tell us some mighty things He wants done and we will be able to do them.
I no longer worry about the glitch that it is that Dr failed to rise up to believe and act on his own teaching. For him to admit that he was not the man he knew to be was a huge thing... but it was not an unprecedented thing.
I have written here before about the ultra-compartmental nature of God's divvying out jobs to people. God gives a job to someone NOT because they deserve it, but because He knows they will get that job done. We tend to give out jobs based on past performance, because we do not have foreknowledge. God sees if the job will get done and awards the "contract" in spite of other failures (past, present, or future) in that same individual.
Many men of God have brought forth God's Word for others to believe and walk on, even though they themselves fell short. Moses had sin in his life, the kind of sin that completely disqualified him from entering the promised land. Yet, Moses still had the believing and willingness to lead God's people where they had to go for THEM to walk into the promised land.
John the Baptist prepared the way for God to set up His Son's ministry, and in doing so John was given GREAT praise by Jesus, yet John did not live to see Pentecost. Almost all of the prophets were successful in getting God's job done, yet were not able to taste the fruit for themselves...yet.
I would have been much happier if Dr had succeeded more, but I've learned to be thankful for those areas in his life where he dared to believe God's revelation and distribute it.
I have not yet succeeded in hearing God's still small voice in all the exactitude and specificity I greatly desire, but I know of no other way to cultivate my ability to hear Him than to study what He made available in the PFAL revelations. He guided me to it, and He guided me BACK to it.
Still no results.. no (or few) results when we had 30,000 some committed to the core PFAL grads. No results? Maybe you need more training. More work. More retemorizing. More study. More obedience. Giving more money, time, effort and life. More more more. And you have to be "cheerful" about it.. blecch.
If you can't figure it out in twenty five years, something has got to be wrong with it.
I'm not just talking about people just missing it, or being human.. we all make mistakes.
But really- consistently- failure upon failure- something's rotten in Way-Mart- and its not me.
I checked- I took a shower this morning.
The ego of man.. oh well. Still think you've got the Lord wrapped around your little finger..
Some kind of "mastering" and you'll have heaven on earth again..
Sad.
Samuel's "advanced class" lasted half a verse- twenty one WORDS- in the King James Version, anyway. But no, he must have worked so hard, retemorized soooo much scripture, memorized his PFAL book.
Interesting, when Samuel said something, it happened.
"Master" revelation- ha. Either you've got it or you don't.
You wrote: "Samuel's "advanced class" lasted half a verse- twenty one WORDS- in the King James Version, anyway. But no, he must have worked so hard, retemorized soooo much scripture, memorized his PFAL book."
I'm afraid you forgot a few things. You forgot that Samuel was working full time in the temple since a very young age. He had YEARS of training. You also forgot that the writing style of the scriptures is often (to the simple) deceptively abreviated and can be very brief in chronicaling the passage of time. You also forgot to include in your admittedly simple observations that Samuel had grown up in a culture that was extremely simple and God oriented, while we grow up in a complex one that heavily rejects God at every turn. You also forgot that Abraham is described as a prophet of God, yet there is no foretelling of his recorded. Other than that, your analysis was very incisive ... NOT!
You also wrote: "'Master' revelation- ha. Either you've got it or you don't."
Guess what? We don't got it. Guess what else: God wants to have it. Do you have to guess what the devil wants?
I'll seek God and His still small voice, and you can seek... what ARE you seeking anyway?
Mike, I can't respond to some of what you said without stating what I'm sure your posting partners have already covered. So if you don't mind I will pass.
I don't disagree as far our walking a more Christ like walk. I fail miserably but the huge difference now is I tell myself that. I cover it between myself and God. I don't need an overseer to point out my weakness or accuse me.
As far as hearing God. I hear him like I have never done before. And I am sad to have to tell you since you hold the class so highly that it took my leaving twi to hear him. As much value as the class actually was to me it still failed me. And that was more the practical application twisted and turned by eager men and women to wield authority.
I can't join you in your higher than what is healthy regard for any man. We all put on our pants one leg at a time. And sorry but God isn't a respecter of persons. If he said it, then I reckon I can pay note to it.
I do think you have a good heart Mike, but I can't go places you want to hang out in.
Well... Samuel was STILL a young lad. Who taught him? Eli? Eli was "copped out".. how about his sons? Hophni? Phinehas? They were too busy doing the mogly "thing"- imagine they thought God didn't care- like a pair of other mog-types I know of..
Samuel sure did not learn by example either. Would have ended up like the rest of those jokers.
I don't know how much experience you have had with youngsters- even in any culture- can't even "beat" this kind of mastery and discipline into them. If you try, you will pay.. one way or another. Samuel was a youngster. Young man.
Is the word of the Almighty so ineffective, so hard to understand, that you have to break it up the supposed basics into about thirty six hours of detailed instruction, and that's not a bad thing in itself- but to have to work it over again, and again, and again- sure, you learn by repetition- but honestly, enough is enough.
How many times do you have to read the book to figure out to read the word of God and let it interpret itself in the context, the context God set it in? Cripe- I remembered that one the first time I was exposed to it. Sure it is useful- but what are you gonna do? Give this little key a place on the mantle and worship the dadburn thing?
Where is your mind?
Honestly- six times through the class, and I got about all that there was that I was gonna get - anything that was good, anyway. No startling "revelations", no "suprises" the forty -fifth, or even the sixtieth time through. Nothing "new".
Forever learning, and not able to come to a knowledge of the truth. Forever working it over, again, and again, and again. Like an old fashioned record, stuck in one groove.
People like Galen and others here were able to glean some good stuff at it- me too. But honestly, PFAL is not God. Never was, never will be. The delusional claims otherwise by a known abuser and idolater need not apply.
A claim of infallibility really falls on deaf ears- practically anyway. Heard that too many times, never ends up being able to live up to all the claims. Claims don't sell the product- RESULTS do.
So.. once again, "where are the results" of all this "mastery"? I showed you mine, show me yours.
What is it doing?
That's even the "test" ole Doc suggested putting to the ministers, bishops and deacons in the churches- "sure you can talk, but what can you PRODUCE?" Good grief.
You may think I'm just mad. Just ornery- not really- as a brother in the Lord, I am concerned.
If after all this time, you still have to wash yourself in sand, run the gauntlet.. somethings gotta be wrong.
You wrote: "Samuel's "advanced class" lasted half a verse- twenty one WORDS- in the King James Version, anyway. But no, he must have worked so hard, retemorized soooo much scripture, memorized his PFAL book."
I'm afraid you forgot a few things. You forgot that Samuel was working full time in the temple since a very young age. He had YEARS of training. You also forgot that the writing style of the scriptures is often (to the simple) deceptively abreviated and can be very brief in chronicaling the passage of time. You also forgot to include in your admittedly simple observations that Samuel had grown up in a culture that was extremely simple and God oriented, while we grow up in a complex one that heavily rejects God at every turn. You also forgot that Abraham is described as a prophet of God, yet there is no foretelling of his recorded. Other than that, your analysis was very incisive ... NOT!
You also wrote: "'Master' revelation- ha. Either you've got it or you don't."
Guess what? We don't got it. Guess what else: God wants to have it. Do you have to guess what the devil wants?
I'll seek God and His still small voice, and you can seek... what ARE you seeking anyway?
Mike, even vpw said a prophet doesn't have to do any foretelling. He can forthtell as well. But really, a prophet can be a person who boldly speaks for God, calling God's people back to obedience. What or who ARE YOU listening to?
And Mike, stop insulting others who disagree with you. I have stopped it with you, why don't you try the high road once.
Just another little thought.. how much "revelation" do you think you really NEED? Even as a Pastor- sure you may need it- but holy cow- unless when God was passing out the brains, as my dad once said "you were standing behind the door"- you don't NEED it. Not like you think. Seriously.. God Almighty gave us a few natural senses for a reason. And a brain. Somehow, at times, this manages to be enough in life.
Most of the times in life, I DON'T KNOW what's gonna happen next. I don't know what's in the next person's mind- even from what they say. I just plain don't know- couldn't know by my five natural senses- and that is OK. Maybe God doesn't want me to know. Good enough for me- just don't know. I finally got honest enough to admit it, and quit friggin pretending that I knew everything.
This morning, I got NOTHING. Nada. Zip. Zilch- "call it what you will".. same as most other mornings.. so what? Well, maybe if I just worked da class a little harder- surely would have "gotten it", something wrong with me, "missed it" somewhere..
Don't think so.
The FEW times- at least what I can remember, that I got anything from the Lord about other people, I didn't have to work over all these keys to figure out if it was Him or not. And it proved to be correct.
But one instance, I ignored it because I thought it was just not being "meek"- thought it was just thinking evil, so subjective. Should have screamed as loud as I could- from what I have read here about the situation, it would have been the right thing to do.
instead, I did the PFAL thing- just analyze it to death trying to figure out if it was really the real deal- trying to weigh out if such action was appropriate or even "profitable"- after all, that's supposed to be the big thing separating the genuine and the counterfiet.
Add to this- it "appeared" to go at cross purposes with the written word. Yep- at least as I knew it at the time.
So I just kept playing the same old track over and over in my mind.. and it sure did not look like it would be profitable, but disasterous. I really thought that "the big wigs" that "mastered" everything would have gotten it before me.
Cost me something.
There are some more "results" for you.
If somebody asked me what PFAL did for me- I'd be honest. Sure, some of it was terrific.
Some of it was horrid. Some of it produced- no results.
while we grow up in a complex one that heavily rejects God at every turn.
I don't exactly agree. Other than some of the governmental issues, by and large, folks in the U.S. do not reject God Almighty or his Son Jesus Christ.
There are always exceptions- in any culture. By and large, people are SPIRITUALLY minded. That's just the way God made us. God made the universe in such a manner that we can seek Him- through his word, but also the creation itself testifies of His power and works.
Sure- you'll find "twisted" people in every culture- but to say the U.S. has cornered the market of them is just going a bit too far- at least in my opinion.
Oh yes.. I forgot. This was one of the rabbits pulled out of the hat when results were questioned, or questionable.
"Well, we don't see results here because THE PEOPLE are not spiritual enough- they're just too darn materialistic in the good ole USA".
"Results not guaranteed".
I bought that too, at one time.
More dodging- like Saul, "its THE PEOPLE'S fault". Couldn't be him..
I have encountered all types in our country- those who believe, those who do not, and those who mock. Same in ANY culture. Somehow, all the mocking in the first century did not stop Peter or the others. Just the shadow of Peter hit you.. wowser. And he did not take twenty five years to figure it out.
Those in that precious "biblical" culture faced as much unbelief, hatred, primitivism, you name what else- as almost any other "ungodly" culture has since. The Romans were such "nice" guys you know. Idolaters. Had a god for everything under the sun. Stick you if you looked at them wrong. Not to mention the failures of the Jewish religion of the time.
They did not HAVE a PFAL class. They did not have the luxury to work it over sixty times before figuring out how it worked. Somehow, God still managed to pull it off. Quite a few of them could not even read.
Sure, they had epistles- but I bet not one in a thousand had their personal copy to "master".
I am not questioning God Almighty- I know He can heal- I know he can energize healings- but I am questioning PEOPLE.
It sounds to me like you’ve decided to start on the right track. Ok then. How about we start by questioning what was recently stated here by some ‘doctor of theology’:
quote:
vpw started from the position that tithes were wrong for the Christian. Once the tithes were coming to HIM, then he printed "Christians Should Be Prosperous", and made it MANDATORY reading and established doctrine.
Some doctor of theology wants us to accept this statement as being the whole truth, but then neglects to answer (if the statement were true) what made VPW change his mind about tithing then? One can readily see we are not being told the complete truth but only part truth. God’s Word says we are to put off lying and speak every man truth (not part truth) with his neighbor (Ephesians 4:25).
Perhaps some would accept the statement as true if they never met VPW. I never heard VPW teach it was wrong to tithe or to give. That’s a new one. The more honest question would be: Does the bible ever teach us it is wrong to tithe or give? In some situations it does. The bible says we are not supposed to give grudgingly or out of necessity. That would certainly be one situation (1 Corinthians 9:7). But the bible doesn’t teach us that we are not supposed to give at all - as some ‘doctor of theology’ here wants to teach it. The Greek word for necessity in that verse is: anagke, which means: must or need. One could use the word MANDATORY and it would convey the same meaning. What we are supposed to understand is some doctor of theology here is now teaching us it is MANDATORY not to give. Well, that’s just as hypocritical as someone teaching you if you don’t give at least 10% (preferably more) God won’t bother to spit in your direction - or whatever direction you want Him to spit in!
That’s all these “Doctors of Theology” people want to teach other people how to do - how to lie and be a hypocrite, and how to grieve the holy spirit and how to be a slave to money like they are. Well, you’re just as much a slave to money by not tithing or by not giving as you are by giving out of fear! You know: If I don’t give at least 10% or more God won’t spit in my direction! OH PHBTTTTTTTTT to all that bull-ony!
You say you can’t afford to tithe or give? Look, you’re supposed to be a faithful steward of that which God has given you. If you’re telling yourself you can’t afford to tithe or give from what ever little it is you have now, what makes you think you can do it when you have more income? You’re just lying to yourself (thereby grieving the holy spirit) saying you can only afford to tithe when you have more income. What you’re really saying is (and is truth) is that you’re a lousy steward of what God has already given you! But nobody ever wants to hear that coming from somebody else – let alone admit it to themselves. More money is not the answer to your problems as most people think it is. The truth is, more money would only cripple and crush you because the more income one has the more is required of them to faithfully steward what they have. That’s not just WTH blowing smoke up your … whatever - that’s the Word of God! See Luke 12:42-48 (especially noting verse 48). That’s right. Unto whom much is given, of him much will be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
I’ll let you all in on a secret, that is, if you don’t know it already. MONEY is not the most valuable possession you have. TIME is your most valuable possession. Money can be recovered: time can not.
I don’t know when the lord will return or if he will return with a PFAL book. The Word of God doesn’t mention the exact time and what he will return with. All I know is today is closer to that appointed day than yesterday, and tomorrow will be even closer still. You and I only have “so much time” and it is also valuable time that none of us can recover. The clock is constantly ticking and all of our time here on this earth is rapidly running out. Scientifically I have learned it is now running out at an exponential rate. If you want to argue and squabble in a debate about it, I might find the time to put you in touch with the scientists who conducted the study. I don’t have to argue with them because I realize it from God’s Word anyway.
Whether or not someone wants to spend their time mastering PFAL is really up to them. I can’t argue somebody into doing it or out of doing it for that matter. Nor can you. These PFAL threads go on forever it seems. I can only be the master and the steward of my own life. I can’t be the steward of anybody else’s life nor can you. That is why you will never change anybody by arguing with them. You can only change yourself. You will find it easier to change yourself than to get somebody else to change by arguing with them. I will say, if you have been taught the integrity of God’s Word to any degree, you better be prepared and be prepared well. Why?
Luke 12:47 “And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.” Now many people might read into that verse and believe it is the lord who will beat them for not preparing. No. If you don’t prepare yourself with the truth of God’s Word, it is the world that will beat you with its many stripes!
The whole key to the more abundant life lies in stewardship – stewardship of your time, your money and of everything else. So if you aint got “it” you can’t blame VPW, LCM, TWI, PFAL or anybody or anything else for the lousy stewardship of your affairs. But that’s exactly what most people do. Then they quit and go looking for another ministry or some other ‘doctor of theology’ or somebody else who will lead them into this “more” abundant life. They go looking for “more” thinking “more” will solve all their problems. Then they lay the blame on somebody or on something else whenever it doesn’t.
If you want to see “more” of the more abundant life, start looking at the last place where few people ever dare to look – themselves. Thinking some ministry or minister or some doctor of theology, or a psychiatrist, or by having “more” money and owning “more” things etc. will make you feel “more” secure in life when you can’t steward your own affairs is lying to yourself – plain and simple. And lying grieves the holy spirit – remember? I’ve learned the more abundant life doesn’t exist in the questioning of other people or other things, as much as it does in questioning myself and my stewardship – of my time, my money and everything else that comes along in my life. Just some ‘spiritual food’ for thought here.
I am not questioning God Almighty- I know He can heal- I know he can energize healings- but I am questioning PEOPLE.
It sounds to me like you’ve decided to start on the right track
I've been on this track for some time. I know its hard to read intent behind something typed up on a keyboard. I managed to alienate Galen and a couple of other folks- who are doing the right thing- or the best they know to do. Never was my intention.
What I object to is turning Christianity and the Word into a version of a high pressure, positively motivated, promise you the moon and world besides if you master it right, infomercial.
"Do it the way WE tell you and you can even jump over the moon".. just like to see them try it first. They make the claim, don't get mad at me if you can't do it. And I STILL demand it- they said it, don't tell me I have to do it- let's see YOU do it. Easy to tell somebody else to do it.
Reminds me of Amway/Shaklee/etc. Maybe some people make out OK, but.. the real secret to "success" is to find SOMEBODY ELSE to "sell"- somebody else to do the work. If someone's spirituality depends on my compliance with their criteria, well.. I feel sorry for them. They'll never see it. I'll dissappoint you fifty times before breakfast. That's what I came OUT of. Not gonna go back in- for anybody.
Honestly, my first reaction to some over-rated claims is to laugh my rear end off. Maybe its a defense mechanism or something- dunno. Ludicrous claims. Sorry, that's just me, right or wrong. I'm not perfect anyway.
I often found myself doing it the way "they" told me to do it, and it just plain did not work. "Well, you must not be REALLY committed, maybe not enough study, not enough of this, enough of that" Just work it a dozen more times- yecch. Makes more sense to go to the corner bar.
Pretty unrealistic. Even Paul did not have the guarantee that people would not beat the crap out of him- except maybe once that I can think of. No promise that if he'd believe right, that everything would be nice and rosie. I would not blame these "failures" on the man. I don't blame God either.
Interesting though.. after Paul and Silas got "the beating of their lives" they weren't sitting around trying to figure out what principle they missed, which principle of believing they must have forgotten, where they broke "fellowship".. which disciple in "the camp" must have been evil- they were singing- even when it still must have hurt.
All the "mastering" of PFAL in the world would not have stopped it. All the retemories.. Sometimes, rotten stuff just plain happens. Believing, or not.
"All receiving is believing"- hogwash- and this WAS stated.
Kind of interesting that the Lord would tell him that this was going to be part of the course. Still didn't stop it from happening- but he knew what he was going to be going up against.
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Bolshevik
Remember the ROA everyone smiling stupid all day? Zombies. Just zombies. With snack tents.
Rocky
Not that I necessarily disagree with you two, but returning to the topic of the PFLAP class... it's all about removing uncertainty from us and replacing it with Victor Wierwille. He had ONE freak
Bolshevik
I can't say what Christian practices are. Any quote by LCM should be read as if he is yelling or at a low rumble leading up to the yelling . . . Certainly sounds like an inner conflict
Ham
That's OK- describes me pretty much exactly. It took me over twenty years to figure out that there was something wrong with the concept of owing my all and all to a stinking "ministry". Took me about five years to figure out that the guy who could just plain scream really loud was not necessarily as spiritual as he claimed. Call me slow, call me simple- probably a pretty honest assessment.
Actually, in my "witnessing days" I found it TOO EASY to dismiss these kind of questions.
Too easy to think "small minds want results". "We do not see then believe, we believe THEN see the power of God.. etc, etc". No results? You must not be "believing". Real convenient excuse- just never can be the product- we want to be able to sell that. Easier and more convenient for people with problems to dissappear in the night.
There were times I "believed" and good stuff happened. There were times I "believed" and some real bad crap STILL happened. Results- isn't that what its all really about? What's it really doing for you?
Ole Doc did say one thing: "If you say you can jump over the barn, and you can really DO IT you're not bragging". Unfortunately, I did not see him jump over very many "barns".
Half of the doctrine issue is practical. How do you PRACTICE it? Legitimate question. I showed you my "results"- and PFAL contributed a small percentage. Some worked. A certain percentage of PFAL resulted in catastrophe. Show me yours. Show me what it did for you. That of course was the real deal that was supposed to get people in the class- even back then.. tell them what it did for you.
I'm not bitter, I'm not "....ed off", I'm not even slightly ornery at the time. I'm not even in particular trying to pick a fight.
All I'm saying, with all the mastering, all the study, all the etc., if it works, if it is worthwhile, you've gotta be seeing some results.
What are they?
When I was a first-class witnesser, I could dodge quite a few questions fairly well back then. I remember giving some pretty lame claims- "well, I finally have peace of mind", "I finally know who I am in Christ" or "well, I can understand some of the Bible that I previously did not". All so vague, so subjective.. some folks thought I was more peaceful if I'd just take a couple demerols or something.
`
People would say, "If you can DO the miracles, why am I not hearing about it?" It's really an honest question. If you can, by "mastering" the materials, believe to do the function of a Prophet- where are the results? No healing ministry in your area? Why not "master" the healing section in your advanced class sylabus and have at it? March in the hospital, and clear it out? Mind you, I am not questioning God Almighty- I know He can heal- I know he can energize healings- but I am questioning PEOPLE.
By the way, ever even SEEN a healing ministry? You wouldn't miss it if you were deaf and had both eyes closed. Kind of like God says, "lets just take off the gloves- forget the "rules", have at em' kid". Literally- "cleaning out the hospitals". Kind of like Acts- the healed when the SHADOW of Peter hit them. No "bragging" there, he pulled it off. Same with Paul in Acts 19.
Doesn't happen very often.
My point- can't "educate" yourself enough to do it. Can't renew the mind enough- can't work hard enough. Can't "master" it- either got it, or you don't. Either God's given it to you or HE hasn't. It's GRACE if it happens- and it's GOD'S choice. Absolutely not guaranteed. I don't have big enough of a brain to figure out why.
No results? PFAL must be highly over-rated. Like a nice catalog- you can drool over the pictures- but alas, you lack the wherewithal. I remember when I was a kid- kind of "geeky" I'd admit- I DROOLED over the Edmund Scientific Co. catalog. That's OK I guess- but it didn't get me the stuff. If I got that high power laser, I'd a probably just shot my eye out with it anyway..
If you read back a little- you'll find what I found that worked, and what didn't. I'm probably nuts for posting some of the stuff. But its my life- learned a few things at least.
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Ham
But, really- what are you trying to do? To SELL it. I've even seen some folks get a few results from some parts of it- myself included. I just wouldn't call it "miracle soap". You know, soap that'll do EVERYTHING. Perfect soap. Soap of the ages..
Soap that'll give you anything, or everything- guaranteed.
The trouble with all this, I have never seen any of this kind of soap live up to its claims.
"Darn people were just too dirty, its their fault".
I did not make the claim. I'll accept the claim- now let's see it DO something. The best advertising is done with demonstration. Words are nice, but lets see what it can do.
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Ham
Really- if its "The Word as it has not been known since the first century" it should get the same results as the word known IN the first century.
Asking for verification of claims is neither vulgar, or rude.
Reminds me of the "good old days" before the American Medical Association set up shop.
Anybody who WANTED to would simply hang out on a shingle, "Doctors Office". Forget that they had not even SEEN a neked body, no less knew what was inside of it. Forget the fact that at best, their experience consisted of working on a couple horses and a mule. And they would argue vehemently against those who questioned their "qualifications". Nay-sayers were labeled "troublemakers" and worse.
Wouldn't work today. People learned a few things.
Results, results.. maybe I'm just harping too much.. maybe not. Maybe a couple of ole Doc's herbal remedies may help my cold, but don't get near me with the bone saw- I just may be having a bad day- I don't need my leg cut off.
Uncomfortable as it may be, credentials were made to be questioned- or verified. Go in any prominent Doctors office- look on the wall. Anybody with a degree from a diploma mill does not stay open for long, if he opens at all.
One of my all time favorite movies- "The Inlaws"- not the new one- the one filmed in the eighties- Peter Falk asking the dentist after looking at all the paper hanging on the wall- "so, do you know what all this really means?"
"Well, yes- it means that I am not going to go to jail for practicing medicine without a license"- heh heh.
Anymore- anybody hanging out a shingle- "I've got all the answers" or some such nonsense, gives me the "willies". Some of them threaten to send people to hell when they ask for qualifications.
Others, simply call you dense or unloving. Shame on you, bad, bad person. You're just like Thomas. How unloving.
Jesus was the "real thing"- whether Thomas was wrong or not, he ACCOMMODATED him. "Go ahead. take a look. Stuff your fingers through my hand. My side. See for yourself". But "Well, after the resurrection, I am just so peaceful now, and can "renew" my mind" would not have gone very far.
I guess I'm just a bad, bad person.
So I re-issue my inquiry- where are the results? What has it done for you? Others have answered- and I would not call them counterfiet, or stupid, for that matter.
What's the big deal?
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Ham
Like the cops have a guy pulled over for speeding. "Let's see your license". "How dare you ask for my credentials! If you persist, you will go to hell". "Maybe so, but if I don't see your licence, you will go to jail".
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HCW
Ok Mike.
So If one was to master PFAL as you say and do all that you say... what would it do for them?
Why should we think that mastering PFAL would do any more for a person than make them know a whole lot about a Bible class?
Telling me nebulous stuff like the people who mastered it were blessed by God proportionately to their mastery of the class says nothing.
Say something.
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ChattyKathy
I've been neglecting, see y'all tomorrow night.
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ChattyKathy
Okay, so if you can't sleep maybe you should read another thread.
Seems to me there was loads of room to lead us to lay the blame at our feet when we failed. And sometimes that is right on, it is our failure plain and simple. But to hold a gun to our heads and demand we agree it had to be our lack when the opposite was true if a leader had failure was just plain wrong! How could it be the leader was SO GREAT A BELIEVER STANDING IN THE GAP and being attacked for it while it was us who failed to not be strong enough not to be attacked? Geez!
Well maybe I can put all these words of y'all's out of my head and sleep. Yeah right!
--> 
:)-->
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Ham
"How could it be the leader was SO GREAT A BELIEVER STANDING IN THE GAP and being attacked for it while it was us who failed to not be strong enough not to be attacked? Geez!"
Just mark up another on to "da accuracy" of PFAL- or whatever "the present truth" happens to be now. I guess they've gotta live with themselves somehow- funny how things look when its THEIR life.
Funny how leadership refused to place the blame for non-performing doctrine at their own doorstep- but if you dared to have a failure, woe unto you.
These jokers saw and had failure upon failure- and still refuse to see the light- despite lack of results- and despite HORRIBLE results- year after year. They've bought into it- but you'd think after hitting your head on the wall enough times, you'd learn a lesson. No wonder they turned so friggin mean. No wonder I was so mean at times.
Its more frustrating than it looks- trying to figure everything out, trying to figure out where to place the blame. Some of us wake up, I guess some of us don't..
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Mike
ChattyKathy,
I tend to think of blame in a soft sense. I've posted on this before and it was not well received, but here goes again.
First of all, the myriad of incidences where something went wrong and someone got blamed, whether rightly or wrongly, I want to look away from. The everyday minor failures are not what I focus on. What I look at is the general overall failure of us grads at becoming The Word, at becoming spiritual beings, at becoming Jesus Christ men and women.
Still, it is a soft blame I have in mind here. Our culpability is in our being human... merely human... natural man human. The rule is that people act like body and soul animals most of the time, and the exception is when someone rises above that and acts in A SUPERNATURAL mode. An even greater exception is for someone to rise up and stay at the spiritual level. And then, the grand exception of them all is where a class of many thousands of grads ALL rise up to become The Word made flesh. It is here that we "failed" and yet it is here that I firmly believe we can still succeed. The 1942 intervention by God is that big, that He is inviting us up to His level by way of the teaching that He, Almighty God, placed in those written PFAL teachings.
HCW, there's your answer above, in general terms.
I should search my files for my previous three answers to the same question: why PFAL?
In a nutshell, and being more specific, I expect that by mastering the written forms of PFAL we will get sharper at hearing God's direct still small voice. I see PFAL as the arena for us learning the revelation manifestations (and then the impartation) like they have not been known since the first century.
Once we get good at recognizing God's voice, and rejecting the counterfeits, then He can tell us some mighty things He wants done and we will be able to do them.
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Mike
ChattyKathy,
I no longer worry about the glitch that it is that Dr failed to rise up to believe and act on his own teaching. For him to admit that he was not the man he knew to be was a huge thing... but it was not an unprecedented thing.
I have written here before about the ultra-compartmental nature of God's divvying out jobs to people. God gives a job to someone NOT because they deserve it, but because He knows they will get that job done. We tend to give out jobs based on past performance, because we do not have foreknowledge. God sees if the job will get done and awards the "contract" in spite of other failures (past, present, or future) in that same individual.
Many men of God have brought forth God's Word for others to believe and walk on, even though they themselves fell short. Moses had sin in his life, the kind of sin that completely disqualified him from entering the promised land. Yet, Moses still had the believing and willingness to lead God's people where they had to go for THEM to walk into the promised land.
John the Baptist prepared the way for God to set up His Son's ministry, and in doing so John was given GREAT praise by Jesus, yet John did not live to see Pentecost. Almost all of the prophets were successful in getting God's job done, yet were not able to taste the fruit for themselves...yet.
I would have been much happier if Dr had succeeded more, but I've learned to be thankful for those areas in his life where he dared to believe God's revelation and distribute it.
I have not yet succeeded in hearing God's still small voice in all the exactitude and specificity I greatly desire, but I know of no other way to cultivate my ability to hear Him than to study what He made available in the PFAL revelations. He guided me to it, and He guided me BACK to it.
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Ham
Still no results.. no (or few) results when we had 30,000 some committed to the core PFAL grads. No results? Maybe you need more training. More work. More retemorizing. More study. More obedience. Giving more money, time, effort and life. More more more. And you have to be "cheerful" about it.. blecch.
If you can't figure it out in twenty five years, something has got to be wrong with it.
I'm not just talking about people just missing it, or being human.. we all make mistakes.
But really- consistently- failure upon failure- something's rotten in Way-Mart- and its not me.
I checked- I took a shower this morning.
The ego of man.. oh well. Still think you've got the Lord wrapped around your little finger..
Some kind of "mastering" and you'll have heaven on earth again..
Sad.
Samuel's "advanced class" lasted half a verse- twenty one WORDS- in the King James Version, anyway. But no, he must have worked so hard, retemorized soooo much scripture, memorized his PFAL book.
Interesting, when Samuel said something, it happened.
"Master" revelation- ha. Either you've got it or you don't.
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Raf
It was a platitude that proves nothing.
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Mike
Mr. Hammeroni,
You wrote: "Samuel's "advanced class" lasted half a verse- twenty one WORDS- in the King James Version, anyway. But no, he must have worked so hard, retemorized soooo much scripture, memorized his PFAL book."
I'm afraid you forgot a few things. You forgot that Samuel was working full time in the temple since a very young age. He had YEARS of training. You also forgot that the writing style of the scriptures is often (to the simple) deceptively abreviated and can be very brief in chronicaling the passage of time. You also forgot to include in your admittedly simple observations that Samuel had grown up in a culture that was extremely simple and God oriented, while we grow up in a complex one that heavily rejects God at every turn. You also forgot that Abraham is described as a prophet of God, yet there is no foretelling of his recorded. Other than that, your analysis was very incisive ... NOT!
You also wrote: "'Master' revelation- ha. Either you've got it or you don't."
Guess what? We don't got it. Guess what else: God wants to have it. Do you have to guess what the devil wants?
I'll seek God and His still small voice, and you can seek... what ARE you seeking anyway?
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ChattyKathy
Mike, I just started looking at your posts to me okay, be back with something in a bit.
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ChattyKathy
Mike, I can't respond to some of what you said without stating what I'm sure your posting partners have already covered. So if you don't mind I will pass.
I don't disagree as far our walking a more Christ like walk. I fail miserably but the huge difference now is I tell myself that. I cover it between myself and God. I don't need an overseer to point out my weakness or accuse me.
As far as hearing God. I hear him like I have never done before. And I am sad to have to tell you since you hold the class so highly that it took my leaving twi to hear him. As much value as the class actually was to me it still failed me. And that was more the practical application twisted and turned by eager men and women to wield authority.
I can't join you in your higher than what is healthy regard for any man. We all put on our pants one leg at a time. And sorry but God isn't a respecter of persons. If he said it, then I reckon I can pay note to it.
I do think you have a good heart Mike, but I can't go places you want to hang out in.
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Ham
Well... Samuel was STILL a young lad. Who taught him? Eli? Eli was "copped out".. how about his sons? Hophni? Phinehas? They were too busy doing the mogly "thing"- imagine they thought God didn't care- like a pair of other mog-types I know of..
Samuel sure did not learn by example either. Would have ended up like the rest of those jokers.
I don't know how much experience you have had with youngsters- even in any culture- can't even "beat" this kind of mastery and discipline into them. If you try, you will pay.. one way or another. Samuel was a youngster. Young man.
Is the word of the Almighty so ineffective, so hard to understand, that you have to break it up the supposed basics into about thirty six hours of detailed instruction, and that's not a bad thing in itself- but to have to work it over again, and again, and again- sure, you learn by repetition- but honestly, enough is enough.
How many times do you have to read the book to figure out to read the word of God and let it interpret itself in the context, the context God set it in? Cripe- I remembered that one the first time I was exposed to it. Sure it is useful- but what are you gonna do? Give this little key a place on the mantle and worship the dadburn thing?
Where is your mind?
Honestly- six times through the class, and I got about all that there was that I was gonna get - anything that was good, anyway. No startling "revelations", no "suprises" the forty -fifth, or even the sixtieth time through. Nothing "new".
Forever learning, and not able to come to a knowledge of the truth. Forever working it over, again, and again, and again. Like an old fashioned record, stuck in one groove.
People like Galen and others here were able to glean some good stuff at it- me too. But honestly, PFAL is not God. Never was, never will be. The delusional claims otherwise by a known abuser and idolater need not apply.
A claim of infallibility really falls on deaf ears- practically anyway. Heard that too many times, never ends up being able to live up to all the claims. Claims don't sell the product- RESULTS do.
So.. once again, "where are the results" of all this "mastery"? I showed you mine, show me yours.
What is it doing?
That's even the "test" ole Doc suggested putting to the ministers, bishops and deacons in the churches- "sure you can talk, but what can you PRODUCE?" Good grief.
You may think I'm just mad. Just ornery- not really- as a brother in the Lord, I am concerned.
If after all this time, you still have to wash yourself in sand, run the gauntlet.. somethings gotta be wrong.
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def59
Mike, even vpw said a prophet doesn't have to do any foretelling. He can forthtell as well. But really, a prophet can be a person who boldly speaks for God, calling God's people back to obedience. What or who ARE YOU listening to?
And Mike, stop insulting others who disagree with you. I have stopped it with you, why don't you try the high road once.
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Ham
Just another little thought.. how much "revelation" do you think you really NEED? Even as a Pastor- sure you may need it- but holy cow- unless when God was passing out the brains, as my dad once said "you were standing behind the door"- you don't NEED it. Not like you think. Seriously.. God Almighty gave us a few natural senses for a reason. And a brain. Somehow, at times, this manages to be enough in life.
Most of the times in life, I DON'T KNOW what's gonna happen next. I don't know what's in the next person's mind- even from what they say. I just plain don't know- couldn't know by my five natural senses- and that is OK. Maybe God doesn't want me to know. Good enough for me- just don't know. I finally got honest enough to admit it, and quit friggin pretending that I knew everything.
This morning, I got NOTHING. Nada. Zip. Zilch- "call it what you will".. same as most other mornings.. so what? Well, maybe if I just worked da class a little harder- surely would have "gotten it", something wrong with me, "missed it" somewhere..
Don't think so.
The FEW times- at least what I can remember, that I got anything from the Lord about other people, I didn't have to work over all these keys to figure out if it was Him or not. And it proved to be correct.
But one instance, I ignored it because I thought it was just not being "meek"- thought it was just thinking evil, so subjective. Should have screamed as loud as I could- from what I have read here about the situation, it would have been the right thing to do.
instead, I did the PFAL thing- just analyze it to death trying to figure out if it was really the real deal- trying to weigh out if such action was appropriate or even "profitable"- after all, that's supposed to be the big thing separating the genuine and the counterfiet.
Add to this- it "appeared" to go at cross purposes with the written word. Yep- at least as I knew it at the time.
So I just kept playing the same old track over and over in my mind.. and it sure did not look like it would be profitable, but disasterous. I really thought that "the big wigs" that "mastered" everything would have gotten it before me.
Cost me something.
There are some more "results" for you.
If somebody asked me what PFAL did for me- I'd be honest. Sure, some of it was terrific.
Some of it was horrid. Some of it produced- no results.
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Ham
I don't exactly agree. Other than some of the governmental issues, by and large, folks in the U.S. do not reject God Almighty or his Son Jesus Christ.
There are always exceptions- in any culture. By and large, people are SPIRITUALLY minded. That's just the way God made us. God made the universe in such a manner that we can seek Him- through his word, but also the creation itself testifies of His power and works.
Sure- you'll find "twisted" people in every culture- but to say the U.S. has cornered the market of them is just going a bit too far- at least in my opinion.
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Ham
Oh yes.. I forgot. This was one of the rabbits pulled out of the hat when results were questioned, or questionable.
"Well, we don't see results here because THE PEOPLE are not spiritual enough- they're just too darn materialistic in the good ole USA".
"Results not guaranteed".
I bought that too, at one time.
More dodging- like Saul, "its THE PEOPLE'S fault". Couldn't be him..
I have encountered all types in our country- those who believe, those who do not, and those who mock. Same in ANY culture. Somehow, all the mocking in the first century did not stop Peter or the others. Just the shadow of Peter hit you.. wowser. And he did not take twenty five years to figure it out.
Those in that precious "biblical" culture faced as much unbelief, hatred, primitivism, you name what else- as almost any other "ungodly" culture has since. The Romans were such "nice" guys you know. Idolaters. Had a god for everything under the sun. Stick you if you looked at them wrong. Not to mention the failures of the Jewish religion of the time.
They did not HAVE a PFAL class. They did not have the luxury to work it over sixty times before figuring out how it worked. Somehow, God still managed to pull it off. Quite a few of them could not even read.
Sure, they had epistles- but I bet not one in a thousand had their personal copy to "master".
How hard does it have to be?
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What The Hay
It sounds to me like you’ve decided to start on the right track. Ok then. How about we start by questioning what was recently stated here by some ‘doctor of theology’:
Some doctor of theology wants us to accept this statement as being the whole truth, but then neglects to answer (if the statement were true) what made VPW change his mind about tithing then? One can readily see we are not being told the complete truth but only part truth. God’s Word says we are to put off lying and speak every man truth (not part truth) with his neighbor (Ephesians 4:25).
Perhaps some would accept the statement as true if they never met VPW. I never heard VPW teach it was wrong to tithe or to give. That’s a new one. The more honest question would be: Does the bible ever teach us it is wrong to tithe or give? In some situations it does. The bible says we are not supposed to give grudgingly or out of necessity. That would certainly be one situation (1 Corinthians 9:7). But the bible doesn’t teach us that we are not supposed to give at all - as some ‘doctor of theology’ here wants to teach it. The Greek word for necessity in that verse is: anagke, which means: must or need. One could use the word MANDATORY and it would convey the same meaning. What we are supposed to understand is some doctor of theology here is now teaching us it is MANDATORY not to give. Well, that’s just as hypocritical as someone teaching you if you don’t give at least 10% (preferably more) God won’t bother to spit in your direction - or whatever direction you want Him to spit in!
That’s all these “Doctors of Theology” people want to teach other people how to do - how to lie and be a hypocrite, and how to grieve the holy spirit and how to be a slave to money like they are. Well, you’re just as much a slave to money by not tithing or by not giving as you are by giving out of fear! You know: If I don’t give at least 10% or more God won’t spit in my direction! OH PHBTTTTTTTTT to all that bull-ony!
You say you can’t afford to tithe or give? Look, you’re supposed to be a faithful steward of that which God has given you. If you’re telling yourself you can’t afford to tithe or give from what ever little it is you have now, what makes you think you can do it when you have more income? You’re just lying to yourself (thereby grieving the holy spirit) saying you can only afford to tithe when you have more income. What you’re really saying is (and is truth) is that you’re a lousy steward of what God has already given you! But nobody ever wants to hear that coming from somebody else – let alone admit it to themselves. More money is not the answer to your problems as most people think it is. The truth is, more money would only cripple and crush you because the more income one has the more is required of them to faithfully steward what they have. That’s not just WTH blowing smoke up your … whatever - that’s the Word of God! See Luke 12:42-48 (especially noting verse 48). That’s right. Unto whom much is given, of him much will be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
I’ll let you all in on a secret, that is, if you don’t know it already. MONEY is not the most valuable possession you have. TIME is your most valuable possession. Money can be recovered: time can not.
I don’t know when the lord will return or if he will return with a PFAL book. The Word of God doesn’t mention the exact time and what he will return with. All I know is today is closer to that appointed day than yesterday, and tomorrow will be even closer still. You and I only have “so much time” and it is also valuable time that none of us can recover. The clock is constantly ticking and all of our time here on this earth is rapidly running out. Scientifically I have learned it is now running out at an exponential rate. If you want to argue and squabble in a debate about it, I might find the time to put you in touch with the scientists who conducted the study. I don’t have to argue with them because I realize it from God’s Word anyway.
Whether or not someone wants to spend their time mastering PFAL is really up to them. I can’t argue somebody into doing it or out of doing it for that matter. Nor can you. These PFAL threads go on forever it seems. I can only be the master and the steward of my own life. I can’t be the steward of anybody else’s life nor can you. That is why you will never change anybody by arguing with them. You can only change yourself. You will find it easier to change yourself than to get somebody else to change by arguing with them. I will say, if you have been taught the integrity of God’s Word to any degree, you better be prepared and be prepared well. Why?
Luke 12:47 “And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.” Now many people might read into that verse and believe it is the lord who will beat them for not preparing. No. If you don’t prepare yourself with the truth of God’s Word, it is the world that will beat you with its many stripes!
The whole key to the more abundant life lies in stewardship – stewardship of your time, your money and of everything else. So if you aint got “it” you can’t blame VPW, LCM, TWI, PFAL or anybody or anything else for the lousy stewardship of your affairs. But that’s exactly what most people do. Then they quit and go looking for another ministry or some other ‘doctor of theology’ or somebody else who will lead them into this “more” abundant life. They go looking for “more” thinking “more” will solve all their problems. Then they lay the blame on somebody or on something else whenever it doesn’t.
If you want to see “more” of the more abundant life, start looking at the last place where few people ever dare to look – themselves. Thinking some ministry or minister or some doctor of theology, or a psychiatrist, or by having “more” money and owning “more” things etc. will make you feel “more” secure in life when you can’t steward your own affairs is lying to yourself – plain and simple. And lying grieves the holy spirit – remember? I’ve learned the more abundant life doesn’t exist in the questioning of other people or other things, as much as it does in questioning myself and my stewardship – of my time, my money and everything else that comes along in my life. Just some ‘spiritual food’ for thought here.
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Ham
I've been on this track for some time. I know its hard to read intent behind something typed up on a keyboard. I managed to alienate Galen and a couple of other folks- who are doing the right thing- or the best they know to do. Never was my intention.
What I object to is turning Christianity and the Word into a version of a high pressure, positively motivated, promise you the moon and world besides if you master it right, infomercial.
"Do it the way WE tell you and you can even jump over the moon".. just like to see them try it first. They make the claim, don't get mad at me if you can't do it. And I STILL demand it- they said it, don't tell me I have to do it- let's see YOU do it. Easy to tell somebody else to do it.
Reminds me of Amway/Shaklee/etc. Maybe some people make out OK, but.. the real secret to "success" is to find SOMEBODY ELSE to "sell"- somebody else to do the work. If someone's spirituality depends on my compliance with their criteria, well.. I feel sorry for them. They'll never see it. I'll dissappoint you fifty times before breakfast. That's what I came OUT of. Not gonna go back in- for anybody.
Honestly, my first reaction to some over-rated claims is to laugh my rear end off. Maybe its a defense mechanism or something- dunno. Ludicrous claims. Sorry, that's just me, right or wrong. I'm not perfect anyway.
I often found myself doing it the way "they" told me to do it, and it just plain did not work. "Well, you must not be REALLY committed, maybe not enough study, not enough of this, enough of that" Just work it a dozen more times- yecch. Makes more sense to go to the corner bar.
Pretty unrealistic. Even Paul did not have the guarantee that people would not beat the crap out of him- except maybe once that I can think of. No promise that if he'd believe right, that everything would be nice and rosie. I would not blame these "failures" on the man. I don't blame God either.
Interesting though.. after Paul and Silas got "the beating of their lives" they weren't sitting around trying to figure out what principle they missed, which principle of believing they must have forgotten, where they broke "fellowship".. which disciple in "the camp" must have been evil- they were singing- even when it still must have hurt.
All the "mastering" of PFAL in the world would not have stopped it. All the retemories.. Sometimes, rotten stuff just plain happens. Believing, or not.
"All receiving is believing"- hogwash- and this WAS stated.
Kind of interesting that the Lord would tell him that this was going to be part of the course. Still didn't stop it from happening- but he knew what he was going to be going up against.
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Ham
Please don't take the Amway thing wrong. I knew lots of nice folks that sold Amway products.
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ChattyKathy
Tied up now but Mr. Hammeroni what is that picture of please?
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