Yep.. I still have to admit I got some good out of it. Still won't call it miracle soap..
Funny, after over twenty five years I feel like I'm finally heading in the direction God really wanted me to go to begin with. Just pray I live long enough to do it- I've already outlasted the life span of most of my ancestors.
So.. what did PFAL do for me? bestides the good stuff, and I will be among the first to admit that there is good in there- but I reserve the right to take out the "garbage"-
No, I was not corps. But probably about as close as you could get. I wasted years of time and effort I could have spent really bettering myself. Untold hours of working the details of PFAL in the books and anything else I could get my hands on. Listening to the SNS tapes over and over. Ignoring what God had in mind for me all along.
I spent too many years in a second rate job, so as to be able to have the "freedom" to help- help run classes, help with local fellowships, give, give, give. Don't get me wrong- it was not all bad.
But the constant working of the materials, over, and over, and over again- never made me more spiritual.
If my life depended on it, I could not just rise up and "turn on" the function of a prophet, or the function of a healing ministry if it was needed, or the function of anthing I was not. All the mastering, all the "believing" did not help me get it.
Years perhaps not entirely- but mostly- wasted- spent trying to be something I was not, something I would never be.
What "suprises" me is I even believe in a God after all of the stupidity. A lot of people were less "fortunate".
So where am I now?
Unless I win the lottery, I probably will never be able to retire. Where's the big promises of abundance? I should be filthy rich.
I find myself desperately trying to dig myself out of the hole I've put myself into. Yes, I did it- but at the encouragement of others. Obviously, "mastering PFAL" is not going to be the way out.
I have $800.00 in the bank. That is more than I had last year. Thank God I don't "owe" $120 of it to some stinking cult.
Maybe you can see how this "if you just return to PFAL and master the principles" kind of sent me off the deep end. The Dr. Seuss stuff was kind, compared to what I really thought of doing.
I have joked with friends about putting an add in the Sunday paper, "forty-some year old college student, seeks adoption. Well mannered, housebroken.."
It's a miracle that I don't go into fits of depression. It's a miracle I have the will left to try to dig myself out.
All that said, still don't feel sorry for myself- most of the time, anyway.. and there is light at the end of the tunnel. I'm not writing to solicit pity. Just an honest assessment of what all this ministry stuff did for me. In a lot of practical ways, PFAL did not live up to its claims- led to disaster.
Mike, when I ask for results, I have a few good reasons.
Oh yes- the bible- it was an oxford loose leaf type- cost me about $120.00 bucks, and that was in the very early seventies. If I can find somebody to scan it I'll post a picture of a sample page. I think that falls under fair use as far as PFAL is concerned..
But it could have been a whole lot worse. I could have gone on staff. Really..
If its anybody I have compassion for, its some goodhearted folks that have REALLY given their all and all- I can partly imagine what its like.
Fifty-some years old, and put out with no or little savings, no retirement and no marketable job skills- besides what they did to Mrs. Wierwille- look what they do to other long time staffers. Where is the promise of abundance then? "Sorry, results not guaranteed. We've given you da verd".
And of course it is "biblically" justified- "they were just not darn committed enough to da one true household" or some such nonsense. I knew somebody that was tossed out of the corps just because the limb guy thought she was "ugly"- and I kid you not. "Just looks worse and worse, must be a spurt in thar"..that was one reason given for the mark and avoid sentence.
So out you go, to figure out your own health care and retirement- if you ever will, or ever even CAN retire. I have about a ten year head start from what some of these folks have been given. So much for taking care of the elders in the church.
I don't see how some people can survive this- mentally, physically, or spiritually.
Some don't.
Maybe they oughta just go back and "master" PFAL. Forget that the stinking thing is tattooed in there almost permanently. Couldn't "leave it" if you wanted to. I am still spitting up the same stuff.
Unless somebody has some real concrete evidence otherwise, I still think that in a practical sense, it failed miserably- at least to the extent of the claims.
You wrote: "I still think that in a practical sense, it failed miserably- at least to the extent of the claims."
I still think that in a truthful sense, it failed miserably to be taken seriously. We failed to get it right. We coasted on partial knowledge and we crashed into the wall.
Your complaints are loaded with confusion over the differences between TWI the company, and the PFAL revelations, between God Who issued the revelations, and people who misapplied them. Sure many things went wrong in how people behaved. Bosses misbehaved, employees misbehaved, leaders misbehaved, followers misbehaved. All that lousy behavior stemmed from a lousy approach to the class materials.
The class materials, the printed revelations, still stand waiting proper understanding and application.
Here we have a class, adding approximately 20 plus years of unparalelled zeal and conviction to understand and apply- in an honest manner- and STILL fails miserably- somehow still has to be the greatest thing since canned tuna.
Good grief- I still have not heard you weigh in with your "results". I gave mine. Pretty "personal". Show me what it did/is doing for you. The lack thereof suggests to me "no results".
Have you started cleaning out hospitals? It has happened- but let's see you do it the PFAL way. Let's see YOU jump over the moon.
Oh, maybe I just wasn't jumping just proper. Don't think so. I jumped every stinking way you could interpret that thing, in most categories, and STILL it did not work. Please explain. You tried a "new" method of jumping? I've tried and seen them all.
To suggest I did not "take it seriously"- well, I won't reply.
I "gambled" practically my all, my fortune, my sacred honor on that thing. Others gambled far more than I did.
My posts are not loaded with "confusion". To think I did not "get it right" is ludicrous. If its THAT hard to "get it right" its not the word. I did not coast on "partial knowledge"- I road the stinking thing as IT ran into the wall.
Really.. show me the results. Go ahead- ride "the train"- let's see where it takes you.
No documentation- I HAVE to assume- no results. Nada. Zip.
I still think that in a truthful sense, it failed miserably to be taken seriously. We failed to get it right. We coasted on partial knowledge and we crashed into the wall.
well, I may not be the master that Mr. H is, but I did read PFAL cover to cover 6 times before I sat through the class itself, RTHST 3 times, including all markings in my Bible before the class, and reading every other printed book and collateral at least once, probably more, certainly read the whole Blue Book 3 times or more. I knew more of the class than 50-60% of all the grads I knew before I took the class and i was in CA where there were hundreds, even thousands of grads in the greater SF Bay Area in 1972.
My first year in rez in the kork I had one the 10 highest scores on the Advanced class exam and the only book I studied was JCING. My last year I had the 3rd highest between all the 6 and 8th kork. Only missed one out of PFAL, RTHST and collaterals sections -- missed my others on research section, JCING and ATDAN.
SO WHAT, you say????......hey, I totally agree -- what a waste of time and effort to have ALL KNOWLEDGE but where, as Mr. H says, was the baby?? Mike -- knock your socks off but the REST of us are gonna pass on your Buck Rogers-style, "secret decoder ring" theology system cobbed from the works of other, more honorable men than your "Giant", veepeewee.......
Okay, now I get it. I mean, now I don't get it. What I mean is, Mike, you're saying nobody has done it right yet.
quote:
The class materials, the printed revelations, still stand waiting proper understanding and application.
You mean, of the what, 90,000 folks who took The Class™, nobody has properly understood & applied it yet? Dang. Guess that secret decoder ring really is secret!
A little more explicitly, what I mean is the few of us seriously even read the books thoroughly, substituting "sitting through" the class for absorbing the written materials.
Even fewer of us mastered the books with 5-senses understanding. This is expecially the case due to our failure to keep the REAL author in mind. We lost the initial trust we had in God giving Dr revelations, and we treated the PFAL materials as mere man-breathed aids. We who did read a lot STILL didn't see many details due to our forgetting the true source of the writings. While some serious students did get many facts accurate, failure to keep in mind that God was the True Author caused even these students to miss much.
Where NO ONE got it was in the spiritual understanding. It is here, in this detail, that you mock God with decoder ring references. The only way anyone sees the spiritual side of PFAL is if God Almighty reveals it to him. Your decoder ring is God. God does not bother to reveal these things to anyone who has not bothered to go the route with the 5-senses mastery.
there you go again, Mike, speaking for everyone in the room. Do you have revelation knowledge and wisdom about ALL who post on this board, and all those grads who don't, besides???
You know what, and where, and to whom, God Almighty did what for the past 20, 25, 30, 35, 40 years???????????? Really? no kiddin', THAT is impressive.....
Still no results. Nope. Nada. Zippo. Ah, but I finally see it ALLUDED to. "Spiritual understanding"- biblically a sound concept, but here, it is so subjective, so vague. "Well, you really would not understand". Try me. Really.
What happened to the claim of abundance IN ALL CATEGORIES?
"Well, he really didn't mean that. What, you greedy or somethin? After all, results are not guaranteed".
Let me see if this helps: repeat after me:
"working and reworking PFAL did __________ for me"
"I learned __________"
"I saw some concrete, tangible results. They were ___________"
I was honest enough to fill in those blanks with my posts. Surely, it cannot be that hard.
What's the worst that can happen? Maybe my dumb a** little "unspiritual" brain won't get it.
Maybe I already have had said results, a thousand times over. Maybe not.
Or are we like the "swine", and you refuse to cast your PFAL "pearls" before us? Maybe they are not the "pearls" you hold them to be of high esteem?
Not trying to be mean, just a little honest here- just trying to figure this thing out.
So far I see all talk. All words. That's fine, if you can do anything with them. "Well, I've got faith- and lots of it- (sorry, PFAL says "believing") Wonderful. Let's see the works.
Don't get mad at me for being "mean" in a public setting.. you're the one that made the claim, IN A PUBLIC SETTING. I would do the same thing in a CHURCH- nicely at first though.
The way I see it, you have one of two choices.
1. Eat the claim. Use lots and lots of ketchup. That may help it go down.
I remember this nice little "love" message several weeks back. "Well, we oughta forgive, we oughta not go so hard on em, maybe if wer'e nice they'll LET US come back..."
Add to this- "You MUST come back to PFAL".
Add to this- trying to have some kind of intimate communication with that group of spiritual inept at the best, downright evil at the worst, deadbeats.
What are you trying to do? Barter some kind of "deal" with "them" to cease hostilities, return to the mastery of PFAL, and have the "slaves" return? Yeppers. The upper ups there would just LOVE that.
Think you're some kind of modern day "Moses" with the mystic "revelation" and you're gonna somehow part the sea to bring back the slaves?
Honestly, that's exactly what I would be returning to- under almost ANY condition promised- slavery. There are STILL slaves in that- but I won't say God-forsaken- place- can't rub HIM out entirely, you know.
I am beginning to ask myself: "what" am I dealing with here? Less and less does it look human- even "twisted" human.
Not an accusation- just my observation.
It would surely explain the apparent lack of results.
A little more explicitly, what I mean is the few of us seriously even read the books thoroughly, substituting "sitting through" the class for absorbing the written materials.
Even fewer of us mastered the books with 5-senses understanding. This is expecially the case due to our failure to keep the REAL author in mind. We lost the initial trust we had in God giving Dr revelations, and we treated the PFAL materials as mere man-breathed aids. We who did read a lot STILL didn't see many details due to our forgetting the true source of the writings. While some serious students did get many facts accurate, failure to keep in mind that God was the True Author caused even these students to miss much.
Where NO ONE got it was in the spiritual understanding. It is here, in this detail, that you mock God with decoder ring references. The only way anyone sees the spiritual side of PFAL is if God Almighty reveals it to him. Your decoder ring is God. God does not bother to reveal these things to anyone who has not bothered to go the route with the 5-senses mastery.
It could be we DO KNOW WHO the author is. Maybe we have pegged him right, while you have placed on a more lofty perch that he deserves.
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Bolshevik
Remember the ROA everyone smiling stupid all day? Zombies. Just zombies. With snack tents.
Rocky
Not that I necessarily disagree with you two, but returning to the topic of the PFLAP class... it's all about removing uncertainty from us and replacing it with Victor Wierwille. He had ONE freak
Bolshevik
I can't say what Christian practices are. Any quote by LCM should be read as if he is yelling or at a low rumble leading up to the yelling . . . Certainly sounds like an inner conflict
Ham
Yep.. I still have to admit I got some good out of it. Still won't call it miracle soap..
Funny, after over twenty five years I feel like I'm finally heading in the direction God really wanted me to go to begin with. Just pray I live long enough to do it- I've already outlasted the life span of most of my ancestors.
So.. what did PFAL do for me? bestides the good stuff, and I will be among the first to admit that there is good in there- but I reserve the right to take out the "garbage"-
No, I was not corps. But probably about as close as you could get. I wasted years of time and effort I could have spent really bettering myself. Untold hours of working the details of PFAL in the books and anything else I could get my hands on. Listening to the SNS tapes over and over. Ignoring what God had in mind for me all along.
I spent too many years in a second rate job, so as to be able to have the "freedom" to help- help run classes, help with local fellowships, give, give, give. Don't get me wrong- it was not all bad.
But the constant working of the materials, over, and over, and over again- never made me more spiritual.
If my life depended on it, I could not just rise up and "turn on" the function of a prophet, or the function of a healing ministry if it was needed, or the function of anthing I was not. All the mastering, all the "believing" did not help me get it.
Years perhaps not entirely- but mostly- wasted- spent trying to be something I was not, something I would never be.
What "suprises" me is I even believe in a God after all of the stupidity. A lot of people were less "fortunate".
So where am I now?
Unless I win the lottery, I probably will never be able to retire. Where's the big promises of abundance? I should be filthy rich.
I find myself desperately trying to dig myself out of the hole I've put myself into. Yes, I did it- but at the encouragement of others. Obviously, "mastering PFAL" is not going to be the way out.
I have $800.00 in the bank. That is more than I had last year. Thank God I don't "owe" $120 of it to some stinking cult.
Maybe you can see how this "if you just return to PFAL and master the principles" kind of sent me off the deep end. The Dr. Seuss stuff was kind, compared to what I really thought of doing.
I have joked with friends about putting an add in the Sunday paper, "forty-some year old college student, seeks adoption. Well mannered, housebroken.."
It's a miracle that I don't go into fits of depression. It's a miracle I have the will left to try to dig myself out.
All that said, still don't feel sorry for myself- most of the time, anyway.. and there is light at the end of the tunnel. I'm not writing to solicit pity. Just an honest assessment of what all this ministry stuff did for me. In a lot of practical ways, PFAL did not live up to its claims- led to disaster.
Mike, when I ask for results, I have a few good reasons.
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Ham
Oh yes- the bible- it was an oxford loose leaf type- cost me about $120.00 bucks, and that was in the very early seventies. If I can find somebody to scan it I'll post a picture of a sample page. I think that falls under fair use as far as PFAL is concerned..
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Ham
One more thing.. these "failures" I listed are just the tip of the iceberg. There are pages of crap I just don't have the stomach to go over again.
Show me the results.
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Ham
Sorry, normally not this grumpy.
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ChattyKathy
Grumpy is good and appropriate at times.
:)-->
You're doing fine man!
;)-->
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Ham
But it could have been a whole lot worse. I could have gone on staff. Really..
If its anybody I have compassion for, its some goodhearted folks that have REALLY given their all and all- I can partly imagine what its like.
Fifty-some years old, and put out with no or little savings, no retirement and no marketable job skills- besides what they did to Mrs. Wierwille- look what they do to other long time staffers. Where is the promise of abundance then? "Sorry, results not guaranteed. We've given you da verd".
And of course it is "biblically" justified- "they were just not darn committed enough to da one true household" or some such nonsense. I knew somebody that was tossed out of the corps just because the limb guy thought she was "ugly"- and I kid you not. "Just looks worse and worse, must be a spurt in thar"..that was one reason given for the mark and avoid sentence.
So out you go, to figure out your own health care and retirement- if you ever will, or ever even CAN retire. I have about a ten year head start from what some of these folks have been given. So much for taking care of the elders in the church.
I don't see how some people can survive this- mentally, physically, or spiritually.
Some don't.
Maybe they oughta just go back and "master" PFAL. Forget that the stinking thing is tattooed in there almost permanently. Couldn't "leave it" if you wanted to. I am still spitting up the same stuff.
Unless somebody has some real concrete evidence otherwise, I still think that in a practical sense, it failed miserably- at least to the extent of the claims.
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Mike
Mr. Hammeroni,
You wrote: "I still think that in a practical sense, it failed miserably- at least to the extent of the claims."
I still think that in a truthful sense, it failed miserably to be taken seriously. We failed to get it right. We coasted on partial knowledge and we crashed into the wall.
Your complaints are loaded with confusion over the differences between TWI the company, and the PFAL revelations, between God Who issued the revelations, and people who misapplied them. Sure many things went wrong in how people behaved. Bosses misbehaved, employees misbehaved, leaders misbehaved, followers misbehaved. All that lousy behavior stemmed from a lousy approach to the class materials.
The class materials, the printed revelations, still stand waiting proper understanding and application.
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Ham
Lets see..
Here we have a class, adding approximately 20 plus years of unparalelled zeal and conviction to understand and apply- in an honest manner- and STILL fails miserably- somehow still has to be the greatest thing since canned tuna.
Good grief- I still have not heard you weigh in with your "results". I gave mine. Pretty "personal". Show me what it did/is doing for you. The lack thereof suggests to me "no results".
Have you started cleaning out hospitals? It has happened- but let's see you do it the PFAL way. Let's see YOU jump over the moon.
Oh, maybe I just wasn't jumping just proper. Don't think so. I jumped every stinking way you could interpret that thing, in most categories, and STILL it did not work. Please explain. You tried a "new" method of jumping? I've tried and seen them all.
To suggest I did not "take it seriously"- well, I won't reply.
I "gambled" practically my all, my fortune, my sacred honor on that thing. Others gambled far more than I did.
My posts are not loaded with "confusion". To think I did not "get it right" is ludicrous. If its THAT hard to "get it right" its not the word. I did not coast on "partial knowledge"- I road the stinking thing as IT ran into the wall.
Really.. show me the results. Go ahead- ride "the train"- let's see where it takes you.
No documentation- I HAVE to assume- no results. Nada. Zip.
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dmiller
To which I say:
Hear, hear!!
:)-->
But the big question is:
Where, where did it get him??
:(-->
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dmiller
Mike -- and what was docvic's *track record*??
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alfakat
well, I may not be the master that Mr. H is, but I did read PFAL cover to cover 6 times before I sat through the class itself, RTHST 3 times, including all markings in my Bible before the class, and reading every other printed book and collateral at least once, probably more, certainly read the whole Blue Book 3 times or more. I knew more of the class than 50-60% of all the grads I knew before I took the class and i was in CA where there were hundreds, even thousands of grads in the greater SF Bay Area in 1972.
My first year in rez in the kork I had one the 10 highest scores on the Advanced class exam and the only book I studied was JCING. My last year I had the 3rd highest between all the 6 and 8th kork. Only missed one out of PFAL, RTHST and collaterals sections -- missed my others on research section, JCING and ATDAN.
SO WHAT, you say????......hey, I totally agree -- what a waste of time and effort to have ALL KNOWLEDGE but where, as Mr. H says, was the baby?? Mike -- knock your socks off but the REST of us are gonna pass on your Buck Rogers-style, "secret decoder ring" theology system cobbed from the works of other, more honorable men than your "Giant", veepeewee.......
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TheEvan
Okay, now I get it. I mean, now I don't get it. What I mean is, Mike, you're saying nobody has done it right yet.
You mean, of the what, 90,000 folks who took The Class™, nobody has properly understood & applied it yet? Dang. Guess that secret decoder ring really is secret!
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Mike
TheEvan,
A little more explicitly, what I mean is the few of us seriously even read the books thoroughly, substituting "sitting through" the class for absorbing the written materials.
Even fewer of us mastered the books with 5-senses understanding. This is expecially the case due to our failure to keep the REAL author in mind. We lost the initial trust we had in God giving Dr revelations, and we treated the PFAL materials as mere man-breathed aids. We who did read a lot STILL didn't see many details due to our forgetting the true source of the writings. While some serious students did get many facts accurate, failure to keep in mind that God was the True Author caused even these students to miss much.
Where NO ONE got it was in the spiritual understanding. It is here, in this detail, that you mock God with decoder ring references. The only way anyone sees the spiritual side of PFAL is if God Almighty reveals it to him. Your decoder ring is God. God does not bother to reveal these things to anyone who has not bothered to go the route with the 5-senses mastery.
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alfakat
there you go again, Mike, speaking for everyone in the room. Do you have revelation knowledge and wisdom about ALL who post on this board, and all those grads who don't, besides???
You know what, and where, and to whom, God Almighty did what for the past 20, 25, 30, 35, 40 years???????????? Really? no kiddin', THAT is impressive.....
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Ham
Still no results. Nope. Nada. Zippo. Ah, but I finally see it ALLUDED to. "Spiritual understanding"- biblically a sound concept, but here, it is so subjective, so vague. "Well, you really would not understand". Try me. Really.
What happened to the claim of abundance IN ALL CATEGORIES?
"Well, he really didn't mean that. What, you greedy or somethin? After all, results are not guaranteed".
Let me see if this helps: repeat after me:
"working and reworking PFAL did __________ for me"
"I learned __________"
"I saw some concrete, tangible results. They were ___________"
I was honest enough to fill in those blanks with my posts. Surely, it cannot be that hard.
What's the worst that can happen? Maybe my dumb a** little "unspiritual" brain won't get it.
Maybe I already have had said results, a thousand times over. Maybe not.
Or are we like the "swine", and you refuse to cast your PFAL "pearls" before us? Maybe they are not the "pearls" you hold them to be of high esteem?
Not trying to be mean, just a little honest here- just trying to figure this thing out.
So far I see all talk. All words. That's fine, if you can do anything with them. "Well, I've got faith- and lots of it- (sorry, PFAL says "believing") Wonderful. Let's see the works.
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Ham
Don't get mad at me for being "mean" in a public setting.. you're the one that made the claim, IN A PUBLIC SETTING. I would do the same thing in a CHURCH- nicely at first though.
The way I see it, you have one of two choices.
1. Eat the claim. Use lots and lots of ketchup. That may help it go down.
2. Show me the results.
Honestly- I did not make the claim- you did.
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Tom Strange
TEE capital HEE
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Ham
Probably take "un-choice" number three- dodge, ignore, and slither off into the night..
Cripe- the lack of results just won't go away- took a long long time, but even I figured that out.
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Ham
Maybe just a little trip off the beaten path but-
I remember this nice little "love" message several weeks back. "Well, we oughta forgive, we oughta not go so hard on em, maybe if wer'e nice they'll LET US come back..."
Add to this- "You MUST come back to PFAL".
Add to this- trying to have some kind of intimate communication with that group of spiritual inept at the best, downright evil at the worst, deadbeats.
What are you trying to do? Barter some kind of "deal" with "them" to cease hostilities, return to the mastery of PFAL, and have the "slaves" return? Yeppers. The upper ups there would just LOVE that.
Think you're some kind of modern day "Moses" with the mystic "revelation" and you're gonna somehow part the sea to bring back the slaves?
Honestly, that's exactly what I would be returning to- under almost ANY condition promised- slavery. There are STILL slaves in that- but I won't say God-forsaken- place- can't rub HIM out entirely, you know.
I am beginning to ask myself: "what" am I dealing with here? Less and less does it look human- even "twisted" human.
Not an accusation- just my observation.
It would surely explain the apparent lack of results.
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def59
It could be we DO KNOW WHO the author is. Maybe we have pegged him right, while you have placed on a more lofty perch that he deserves.
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Ham
I wonder if anybody else can hear screaming all the way from Long Beach..
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Ham
Galen, hope I didn't pi** you off too much.. just some folk turning it into PFAL is God is a little too much- had to say something.
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Galen
Mr. Hammeroni:
"Galen, hope I didn't pi** you off too much.. just some folk turning it into PFAL is God is a little too much- had to say something."
No worrys mate. :-)
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Raf
Galen, I had a question for you. Can you PT me or check the "Deceptive Distinctions" thread?
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