PFAL

[Ham]

Morse code key. People kept saying my old avatar looked like a girl, heh heh.

[HCW]

quote:

It is here that we "failed" and yet it is here that I firmly believe we can still succeed. The 1942 intervention by God is that big, that He is inviting us up to His level by way of the teaching that He, Almighty God, placed in those written PFAL teachings.

So Mike, that it? Master PFAL cause God is using it to "invite us up to His level?

I've heard that one before.

quote:

Previously posted by GOD:

Genesis 3:4 "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

V:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods , knowing good and evil.

Let me rephrase that:

"... Mike said unto us, ye shall not surely remain a failure:

For God doth know that in the day ye mastereth PFAL, your eyes shall be opened and you will be on the same level as God , knowing how to manifest His power."

I knew this whole thing had a familiar ring to it.... Can you be more specific in your answer?

[def59]

HCW

You learn quick, now try to snatch the pebble from my hand.

:D-->

[WordWolf]

[Here we go again....

WTH in original, WordWolf in boldface as always.]

quote:

Originally posted by What The Hay:

quote:

vpw started from the position that tithes were wrong for the Christian. Once the tithes were coming to HIM, then he printed "Christians Should Be Prosperous", and made it MANDATORY reading and established doctrine.

Some doctor of theology wants us to accept this statement as being the whole truth, but then neglects to answer (if the statement were true) what made VPW change his mind about tithing then?

[WTH wants us to accept this partial quote as being the whole truth, but then neglects to include the answer to his own question-what made VPW change his mind about tithing.]

WordWolf, 3/15/05, 4:18am

quote:

vpw started from the position that tithes were wrong for the Christian.

Once the tithes were coming to HIM, then he printed "Christians Should Be

Prosperous" and made it MANDATORY reading and established doctrine. That's

intellectually DIShonest. Since lying grieves God, God was not pleased by

this, QED. Please note that, again, WTH has attempted to Blame The Believer

(BTB) for pfal's failings.

Not surprisingly, WTH attempted to deflect the charge of vpw's blatant

DIShonesty in reversing his position on the tithe as soon as it was in the

financial interests to do so....

[ So, then, did I leave out why VPW reversed his position? Or did I say

it was that the money was "coming to him" and "in his financial interests"

to teach tithing?

If I included it, why did WTH claim I didn't? Error or intent to deceive?]

One can readily see we are not being told the complete truth but only part truth.

[ I agree. WTH told a partial truth. ]

God’s Word says we are to put off lying and speak every man truth (not part truth) with his neighbor (Ephesians 4:25).

Perhaps some would accept the statement as true if they never met VPW.

[Or if they did their homework.]

I never heard VPW teach it was wrong to tithe or to give.

[Whether WTH heard VPW teach something or not is NOT the determinant in whether or not VPW taught it. ]

That’s a new one.

[No, that's an OLD one. It's one of the charges VPW levelled at his old denomination when he was looking for ways to make them look like villains. He said it was wrong for them to demand the tithe, and that he wasn't going to go along with their villainous practices. *insert villainous organ music here* That was long before WTH ever heard of VPW. ]

The more honest question would be: Does the bible ever teach us it is wrong to tithe or give?

[ A REQUIRED TITHE-which is ANY TITHE, since a tithe, by DEFINITION is a required 10%-is NEVER given for Christians. They collected funds at need, those with abundance gave, and it was distributed to the POOR so that there was no LACK. That's NOTHING like VPW's tithe.]

In some situations it does. The bible says we are not supposed to give grudgingly or out of necessity. That would certainly be one situation (1 Corinthians 9:7). But the bible doesn’t teach us that we are not supposed to give at all - as some ‘doctor of theology’ here wants to teach it.

INCORRECT. Setting up the strawman "he says we should NEVER give" when what I said was "God does not require a mandatory 10%" is intellectually dishonest and lying. If it was accidental, it would be inferior workmanship. If it's intentional, it's deliberate deception, which makes Baby Jesus cry.]

The Greek word for necessity in that verse is: anagke, which means: must or need. One could use the word MANDATORY and it would convey the same meaning. What we are supposed to understand is some doctor of theology here is now teaching us it is MANDATORY not to give. [No, as any adult reader of English should be able to see, I said God did not REQUIRE a MANDATORY 10%. Therefore, it is wrong to teach you MUST give. Giving should be done out of thankfulness and out of one's abundance. It is dishonest to distort my clear communications deliberately in that fashion. God does not like DIShonesty.]

Well, that’s just as hypocritical as someone teaching you if you don’t give at least 10% (preferably more) God won’t bother to spit in your direction - or whatever direction you want Him to spit in!

[What's hypocritical is lecturing us about honesty while prolifically using a variety of DIShonest methods to teach it. THAT's hypocrisy.]

[Aaaand, on cue, here comes WTH's hypocritical lecture on honesty, which he's worked hard to shoehorn in once more, even if he had to lie like a rug to bring it in...]

That’s all these “Doctors of Theology” people want to teach other people how to do - how to lie and be a hypocrite, and how to grieve the holy spirit and how to be a slave to money like they are. Well, you’re just as much a slave to money by not tithing or by not giving as you are by giving out of fear! You know: If I don’t give at least 10% or more God won’t spit in my direction! OH PHBTTTTTTTTT to all that bull-ony!

[is anyone BESIDES WTH seeing any of this program on THEIR tv channels? I'm watching a different show from him. I didn't see ANYONE mentioning ANY of this except WTH. Is he posting in the wrong window or something?]

You say you can’t afford to tithe or give?

[No, I say that when you get ahold of some real premium sh* like you've been smoking, you're supposed to SHARE so the rest of us can see the groovy colours also (Bullinger). ]

Look, you’re supposed to be a faithful steward of that which God has given you. If you’re telling yourself you can’t afford to tithe or give from what ever little it is you have now, what makes you think you can do it when you have more income? You’re just lying to yourself (thereby grieving the holy spirit) saying you can only afford to tithe when you have more income. What you’re really saying is (and is truth) is that you’re a lousy steward of what God has already given you! But nobody ever wants to hear that coming from somebody else – let alone admit it to themselves. More money is not the answer to your problems as most people think it is. The truth is, more money would only cripple and crush you because the more income one has the more is required of them to faithfully steward what they have. That’s not just WTH blowing smoke up your … whatever - that’s the Word of God! See Luke 12:42-48 (especially noting verse 48). That’s right. Unto whom much is given, of him much will be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

[sp, those leaders who abused their offices, much will be required of them, right? Glad we agree.]

I’ll let you all in on a secret, that is, if you don’t know it already. MONEY is not the most valuable possession you have. TIME is your most valuable possession. Money can be recovered: time can not.

[ Right. I'd sure redeem more of it if I didn't have to defend my reputation from smear jobs by some a-hole determined to distort my every utterance.]

I don’t know when the lord will return

[Neither do I.]

or if he will return with a PFAL book.

[There's an actual difference of opinion as to whether or not this is a possibility?????]

The Word of God doesn’t mention the exact time and what he will return with.

[so he might be carrying a kitten, say, or a frilly pink dress, also.]

All I know is today is closer to that appointed day than yesterday, and tomorrow will be even closer still. You and I only have “so much time” and it is also valuable time that none of us can recover.

[And yet, you chose to post this....]

The clock is constantly ticking and all of our time here on this earth is rapidly running out. Scientifically I have learned it is now running out at an exponential rate. If you want to argue and squabble in a debate about it, I might find the time to put you in touch with the scientists who conducted the study. I don’t have to argue with them because I realize it from God’s Word anyway.

Whether or not someone wants to spend their time mastering PFAL is really up to them. I can’t argue somebody into doing it or out of doing it for that matter. Nor can you. These PFAL threads go on forever it seems.

[Posts like this contribute markedly to the amount of space wasted on the subject, in fact...]

I can only be the master and the steward of my own life. I can’t be the steward of anybody else’s life nor can you. That is why you will never change anybody by arguing with them.

[so, you agree these threads are a waste of time altogether? Great!]

You can only change yourself. You will find it easier to change yourself than to get somebody else to change by arguing with them. I will say, if you have been taught the integrity of God’s Word to any degree, you better be prepared and be prepared well. Why?

Luke 12:47 “And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.” Now many people might read into that verse and believe it is the lord who will beat them for not preparing. No. If you don’t prepare yourself with the truth of God’s Word, it is the world that will beat you with its many stripes!

[Welcome back to the Blame The Believer Show! See? If you have tribulation in the world, it's not because your Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ said that in the world you will have tribulation, it is YOUR FAULT for not believing right! It was the FEAR...in the HEART....of that WOMAN..... someone STILL BELIEVES THIS Horse Manure Masquerading As Divine Doctrine?]

The whole key to the more abundant life lies in stewardship – stewardship of your time, your money and of everything else. So if you aint got “it” you can’t blame VPW, LCM, TWI, PFAL or anybody or anything else for the lousy stewardship of your affairs.

[Actually, the Better Business Bureau, the Dept of Consumer Affairs, and the Courts of the United States beg to differ. If someone advertises they are a good steward, and you hire them in good faith, you can sue them for damages. If you claim to teach how to be a good steward, and your techniques fail, and your seminars are just an excuse to drug and rape some of the attendees, AND YOU ARE CAUGHT, you're going to be stewarding your time from within a prison cell and try to figure out how to keep Bubba from molesting YOU.

Nice try saying lcm, vpw and their criminal gang didn't commit felonies, though.]

But that’s exactly what most people do. Then they quit and go looking for another ministry or some other ‘doctor of theology’ or somebody else who will lead them into this “more” abundant life. They go looking for “more” thinking “more” will solve all their problems.

[Actually, YOU'RE the one who made this a hypothetical example of some "more abundant life", so it's unfair for you to claim your example was wrong, unless you're lecturing yourself.]

Then they lay the blame on somebody or on something else whenever it doesn’t.

If you want to see “more” of the more abundant life, start looking at the last place where few people ever dare to look – themselves. Thinking some ministry or minister or some doctor of theology, or a psychiatrist, or by having “more” money and owning “more” things etc. will make you feel “more” secure in life when you can’t steward your own affairs is lying to yourself – plain and simple. And lying grieves the holy spirit – remember? I’ve learned the more abundant life doesn’t exist in the questioning of other people or other things,

[Nice try shoehorning in the "you're not allowed to hold leaders accountable" stuff. Didn't work for the ENRON executives, you know. ]

as much as it does in questioning myself and my stewardship – of my time, my money and everything else that comes along in my life. Just some ‘spiritual food’ for thought here.

{Spiritual rice cakes. You can eat it, then belch, and it won't remind you of anything....]

[WordWolf]

quote:

Originally posted by HCW:

quote:

It is here that we "failed" and yet it is here that I firmly believe we can still succeed. The 1942 intervention by God is that big, that He is inviting us up to His level by way of the teaching that He, Almighty God, placed in those written PFAL teachings.

So Mike, that it? Master PFAL cause God is using it to "invite us up to His level?

I've heard that one before.

quote:

Previously posted by GOD:

Genesis 3:4 "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

V:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods , knowing good and evil.

Let me rephrase that:

"... Mike said unto us, ye shall not surely remain a failure:

For God doth know that in the day ye mastereth PFAL, your eyes shall be opened and you will be on the same level as God , knowing how to manifest His power."

I knew this whole thing had a familiar ring to it.... Can you be more specific in your answer?

HCW,

take WTH's aimless ramblings as a compliment.

Whenever Mike faces posts like this one you posted here,

someone like WTH shows up to obscure the discussion,

almost as if Mike asked them to show up out of nowhere

and waste our time to take the heat off of him.

We've had a number of odd coincidences like that before...

[Ham]

What I find interesting- how easy it is for some to label somebody asking for verification of the claims as unspiritual, ignorant, or at worst possessed. Maybe "just not walking"- not "mature".

I'd like to see that tried on a bank examiner. Or an IRS agent during an audit. Call him whatever you want- but if you claimed nineteen dependents and you only have one, you're STILL in a heap of trouble. Throw all the mud you want- scream, shout- try to "give that possessed IRS guy over to da adversary". Sorry, results not guaranteed.

I don't really like to see people squirm- I've done it a lot myself- I know what its like- I know how it feels.

But really- if you can't figure out the PFAL thing after forty five to sixty some viewings of it, somethings gotta be wrong.

Edited March 19, 2005 by Mr. Hammeroni

[Mike]

Mr. Hammeroni,

I agree with you here:

Viewing the class or sitting through the class, as you have put it, indicate to me an exposure to the film class, (or video or audio). It is my contention that the vast majority of us grads did indeed have a rich and oft repeated exposure to the 1967 film class sound track, just as you have indicated here was the case for you. It was the case for me also.

I agree with you here:

It is also my contention that this aural, verbal experience of PFAL by the vast majority of us grads did NOT WORK OUT WELL for us. This network of ideas and thought patterns did start out in a beneficial mode, but it degenerated as the years went by. I have given a name to this network of ideas and thought patterns that this verbal tradition became, it's TVT for Twi's Verbal Tradition. In it's later years the TVT drifted not only far from the original PFAL revelations, but it bifurcated many times over into hundreds of slightly differing TVTs, and later into the many large and small splinter groups currently operating.

We may disagree here:

It is my contention that the vast majority of us grads, though having rich aural exposure to PFAL, our exposure to the WRITTEN form of PFAL was paltry. I have debated this for many hundreds of rounds here.

I agree with you that your later exposure to the counterfeit TVTs of PFAL gave you insufficient tools for realizing the promise of PFAL, and that your quality of life was even diminished by this exposure.

I agree that your earlier exposure to the verbal forms of PFAL (film, video, tape) gave you insufficient tools for realizing the promise of PFAL. However, if you got in early enough, you may have noticed that your quality of life was temporarily and/or partially enhanced by this exposure.

***

So, Mr. Hammeroni, I often qualify my claims and specifically mention that it's the WRITTEN forms of PFAL that are what we were told to master, not the verbal forms. Sitting through the class umpteen times does not expose a grad to the wealth of information that was in written form.

You only skimmed the surface of PFAL if you didn't work every chapter of every book several times.

I know I did that much study back then, and I now know that still was not enough. Even though I did work every chapter of every book back then, I did STILL miss much that I am only now finding. It sounds to me that your exposure to PFAL was pretty casual, and we were told that if we didn't master the material we'd miss the meat. I'm not surprised at the results you got. You WILL BE surprised at the results you get if you do come back to PFAL and seek to meekly master it's contents.

[Ham]

quote:

You WILL BE surprised at the results you get if you do come back to PFAL

Still.. what results?

Perhaps you were not a zealous as I was.

In our classes- we read the materials. We worked the books- while we were going through the class. More times than not.

Honestly- I could tell you the difference between how Doc handled "needs and wants parallel" in the book AND the film class. I remember even the stinking jokes- even the ones he chose not to put in the PFAL book.

We worked over even the most mundane, insignificant crap- people counted how many times he said "Christ in you" in session five- trying to attach some mysterious significance to each "occurence".

We debated endlessly why he was justified in omitting "ye think" in John 5:39. In the film class, he really stumbled over that.. almost choked. But there it is, all in it's glory in the written materials. This kind of handling of God's Word is STILL a stumbling block, but not to me anymore.

I went as far as to write the entire PFAL book, RHST and more in minature form in my bible. I still have it. The sixty-two page sylabus also forms an appendix in the back of my bible- word for word, charts and all- hand copied, exactly to the letter.

I went as far as to take the sylabus, and bracket the verses listed that Dr. only quoted, not directly read.

I worked that sucker up and down, inside and out, day and night sometimes- year after year- and a lot of times it STILL did not work. Still. Still at many times, bad stuff happened anyway- believing or not. Sometimes good stuff happened out of the blue- no believing involved. Sometimes good things happened because of God, and because I "believed" and because of what I learned.

And life is the same today.

I refuse to even open the thing anymore. No more.

Got insufficient tools? More honestly- some of the "tools" were not "tools"- they did not work.

I remember the tools- some of them I wish I could FORGET. "Fear is believing, it is believing in reverse..."

Some of it was good.. other parts were skewed beyond any recognition or pattern of logic.

There were times I got some real CRAP and I DID NOT have fear.

So.. WHAT results? Honestly- honest question. I showed you mine. Some were OK, some stunk. And a lot of the stuff is pretty personal. Show me yours. What (and I mean in a concrete manner) did it do for you? What is the present "mastering" and labor doing?

[HCW]

Thanks again WW. Funny you should say that about WTH, you confirmed for me that what I thought might be a pattern really is one. I "wonder" if WTH is Mike.

Hey Mike, what's up with the tag team thing?

WTH.... What the HAY?

It seems like you're "both" operating on the "principle:"

If you can't dazzle 'em with your brilliance; baffle 'em with your .....

We're NOT baffled though....

btw WordWolf, I AM dazzled by your patience and perserverence in constantly confronting this "mike-ology."

ChattyK: Although I presented it in a semi-humorous manner, I'm dead-dog serious about what I feel the true source of this God-breathed PFAL thing is. Please don't get taken in by this stuff.

quote:

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 2 Corinthians 11:3 & 4

I DO, firmly, believe that whereas there may be SOME merit in reading the PFAL materials, the concept of mastering PFAL as presented here, in search of the goal as stated by Mike is a direct Satanic attack. Said attack is just another insideous attempt by our adversary the devil to STEAL, KILL and DESTROY. There is nothing in PFAL that a person couldn't learn elsewhere. (Mike, tell me ONE thing that you would recommend a person, who is say, an elder in his local church, one thing that he could ONLY learn from PFAL.)

The end goal of Mike's never-ending ramblings on this subject is NOT even what he says it is. His goal is evident, what he wants is what he's getting, people who read him, talk with him even argue with him. He makes statements like that and the statements encourage people to continue the "debate." To quote ettiquette teachers, "what he DOES speaks so loud I can't hear what he says."

I've been participating in a very, civil, informative, heavily scriptural discussion on another thread concerning, "Salvation, is it permanent?" If it should be that salvation is NOT permanent, following Mike's path would certainly lead to the loss of it.

As admirable as it may seem to devote as much of one's time to a cause, as Mike CLAIMS to have put into this...let me ask, How much admiration do we give Satan, that old serpent, who seeketh to devieve the whole world? HE's been at his thing for the entire 6000 years of this Earth's existence.

That right gang, only 6000 years. There are people out there who have PROVEN that the earth, at least the human involvement with it, is just around 6000 years old. THEY study the Bible, and science, and history, and palentology and have found that all they ALL agree. They travel the WORLD giving FREE lectures and seminars that give people, believer and non, REAL answers to really relevant questions.

In addition to how old is the earth, they answer questions like:

What about the dinosaurs? When and why did they die?

What about all this evidence of man's evolution?

Where did all of these races of people come from?

What is the BEST evidence of the existence of God?

They answer these and many more questions that PFAL could NEVER, in a million years, even begin to touch. They present EVIDENCE, then back it up with SCIENCE and scripture. When you leave one of their presentations you feel like, "Did not our hearts burn within us as we talked with him along the way?"

I know MINE did.

Just a little smidge of what I'm talking about. Concerning the existence of dinosaurs, and when did they exist. Genesis clearly states when God created soul life in animals (I think dinosaurs classify as animals, at least the DNA that scientists have been able to extract from fossils says they were).

You take the fricken BONE a scientist has in his hand that proves something did exist, add that to the DNA that says it was an animal with similar DNA to animals alive today. Then add:

quote:

Originally posted by GOD in Genesis, chapter one:

v:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

v:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

v:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

The Bible says God created land animals on the fifth day. You can read earlier verses that say he did water & flying animals on the fourth day.

It Goes on to say that on the FIFTH day...

quote:

v:26 God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

v:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

... on the sixth day...

quote:

v:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

v:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

It was the fall of Adam that introduced death and evil into man and the world in chapter 3.

Prior to that there was no death and man had no knowledge of evil. If there was no death, how did the dinosaurs die?

The TWI teaching concering Genesis 1:1 & 2 is bogus. (here's one of the PFAL errors, Mike.) There is NOTHING, no evidence, no science, no nothing to support what VP said about the war in heaven between God, & lucifer and his hosts CAUSING the Earth that was already created to BECOME, "tahoo va bahoo" AFTER having been created in an habital environment, where God supposedly made dinosaurs and the man-type animals that died, for no apparent reason - - other than this mysterious globally devasting event that was the war in "heaven."

The Contemporary English Version says it most clearly...

quote:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. v:2 The earth was barren, with no form of life; it was under a roaring ocean covered with darkness. But the Spirit of God was moving over the water.

The the group I'm speaking of Answers in Genesispresents EVIDENCE that man and dinosaurs lived at the same time & the dinosaurs were animals like any other animals. In fact there are STILL "dinosaurs" living today. smaller ones. There are "authenticated" cave drawings made by men of men & animals that look like T-Rex, etc. I've seen them show photos of people today that have every skull type they say are phases of the evolutionaly cycle.

Check out their website. They actually have information on it Answers in Genesis is a non denominational ministry commited to defending the Christian faith and upholding the accuracy of the Bible... from the very first verse.

My point is, that if there was anything to teach that could actually cause us human to ascend to the higher, Godly, level of existence, AND Mike actually wanted us to reach this nerdvana WITH him, in all these years he would have taught us some of it himself. That truth would have made us free from this neverending debate.

"...shatch!" (((((((def))))))) ????

[Ham]

The only thing that "suprises" me is how long it took to say "enough is enough". Honestly.

How long I hung around that stink-hole. How long I justified lack of results.

How many times I kept going back to the same miserable trough trying to get some real nourishment.

How long I either ignored or stood behind doctrinal and practical error. How long I accepted the blame for lack of results.

No more.

Some gleaned some good out of this thing- no fight with them. I managed to get some good, but I'm still coughing up junk.

Ptooie.

[Raf]

quote:

I DO, firmly, believe that whereas there may be SOME merit in reading the PFAL materials, the concept of mastering PFAL as presented here, in search of the goal as stated by Mike is a direct Satanic attack. Said attack is just another insideous attempt by our adversary the devil to STEAL, KILL and DESTROY.

Gee, there's a thought. :)-->

[ChattyKathy]

Mr. Hammeroni, is there a reason why you chose that Morse code key thingy?

Howard, thank you for your words of advice. I've been tied up away from here and have much to catch up with y'all as soon as I can.

c-y'all

[Ham]

"Gotta work PFAL"- God may have told YOU, sure did not tell ME. Maybe YOU didn't "get it". I did- way too much.

[Mike]

HCW,

Tag team?!

Can't you see the places where What The Hay is disagreeing with me? He's very diplomatic about it, but he often counters my positions. I find his disagreements with me more deeply thought through than most posters here, and hence I pay a little more attention to them.

I often chose to not pursue my disagreements with WTH, and only magnify where we DO agree. This may be where you pick up on a team like relationship. His disagreements with me are subtle in nature and subtle in delivery, so they serve as a key to me as in gaugeing how accurately some other posters here are willing to or able to follow the deeper details in the discussion.

[Ham]

Yep. I am a ham radio operator. Use morse code all the time.

That's one reason I chose the last avatar- looked to me like young Joe Walsh when he was in James Gang..he is also a ham radio operator- WB6ACU.

I always messed around with radios and electronics, but got involved with the local radio club here shortly before exit from TWI. Nice bunch of folks.

[Ham]

I chose the name "Mr. Hammeroni" as kind of a play on words- "Italian ham radio operator"- but I'm not Italian.

[Ham]

Anybody want to call old Joe a girl, well, we've got some issues, heh heh.

[Ham]

I dunno- I read the Mike posts for a long time before considering saying anything.

It seems that debating the doctrinal "irregularities" go nowhere. Have all the info on your side, all the logic- does no good.

I thought I'd try something different- examine the practical side. If it's so great- show me what it's DOING. Show me the results- none to date. I showed mine- some not so pleasant. Explain that away- I was a "master" of PFAL. Crap still happened, deliverance came, but not the PFAL way. Some things, I could NOT fix.

I hope it helped somebody.

[ChattyKathy]

What? Did someone say the Lord was going to return with a PFAL book in his hand? -->

Am I trying to start a rumor?

[ChattyKathy]

What the Hay, I agree with some of your thinking. You seem to lean toward personal accountability, and in that I am sold out. But some of your stuff...well...like I said I agree with some of your thinking.

[WordWolf]

WTH has posted some things that are technically accurate.

(And some that aren't.)

I don't trust it coming from WTH any more than I trust the woman with the

familiar spirit just because she claimed that the disciples were men

serving the Most High God. It strikes me that this was meant to lend

credibility to less-credible statements made later...

[WordWolf]

quote:

Originally posted by ChattyKathy:

What? Did someone say the Lord was going to return with a PFAL book in his hand? -->

Am I trying to start a rumor?

What are you, new?

Mike, 2/2/04, 12:17am, Eastern.

"When you see Christ in his glory he will be holding a PFAL book in his hand

and teaching you from it."

Vickles, 2/3/04, 7:51pm, Eastern.

"So, Mike, you weren't kidding about JC coming with a PFAL book in his hand."

Mike, 2/3/04, 7:53pm, Eastern.

"Totally serious. I've already seen him this way more than once."

That's not even counting

Mike, 2/3/04, 5:22am, Eastern.

"Jesus Christ appointed Dr his spokesman.

Jesus Christ is VERY interested in PFAL.

He told me so."

====

The idea of Jesus Christ possibly returning holding a kitten or a

frilly pink dress was mine, though. Your opinion which would be a more

profitable use of the Lord's hand at that particular moment.

[ChattyKathy]

WordWolf, thanks! I do pay attention to your advice.

Howard, your stuff concerning the existence of dinosaurs, and when did they exist is very kewl. When I can I will check out that link. Thanks!

[ChattyKathy]

ha ha ha ha....I was posting and missed your post to me on the rumor....ha ha ha ha

....gosh I was posting for 4 minutes....I must have gotten up and left the room or something....ha ha ha ha

(so it's in the middle of the night! what ya want anyway? ;)--> )

[WordWolf]

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Hammeroni:

quote:

You WILL BE surprised at the results you get if you do come back to PFAL

Still.. what results?

Perhaps you were not a zealous as I was.

In our classes- we read the materials. We worked the books- while we were going through the class. More times than not.

Honestly- I could tell you the difference between how Doc handled "needs and wants parallel" in the book AND the film class. I remember even the stinking jokes- even the ones he chose not to put in the PFAL book.

We worked over even the most mundane, insignificant crap- people counted how many times he said "Christ in you" in session five- trying to attach some mysterious significance to each "occurence".

We debated endlessly why he was justified in omitting "ye think" in John 5:39. In the film class, he really stumbled over that.. almost choked. But there it is, all in it's glory in the written materials. This kind of handling of God's Word is STILL a stumbling block, but not to me anymore.

I went as far as to write the entire PFAL book, RHST and more in minature form in my bible. I still have it. The sixty-two page sylabus also forms an appendix in the back of my bible- word for word, charts and all- hand copied, exactly to the letter.

I went as far as to take the sylabus, and bracket the verses listed that Dr. only quoted, not directly read.

I worked that sucker up and down, inside and out, day and night sometimes- year after year- and a lot of times it STILL did not work. Still. Still at many times, bad stuff happened anyway- believing or not. Sometimes good stuff happened out of the blue- no believing involved. Sometimes good things happened because of God, and because I "believed" and because of what I learned.

And life is the same today.

I refuse to even open the thing anymore. No more.

Got insufficient tools? More honestly- some of the "tools" were not "tools"- they did not work.

I remember the tools- some of them I wish I could FORGET. "Fear is believing, it is believing in reverse..."

Some of it was good.. other parts were skewed beyond any recognition or pattern of logic.

There were times I got some real CRAP and I DID NOT have fear.

So.. WHAT results? Honestly- honest question. I showed you mine. Some were OK, some stunk. And a lot of the stuff is pretty personal. Show me yours. What (and I mean in a concrete manner) did it do for you? What is the present "mastering" and labor doing?

The difference, Mr Hammeroni,

is that you actually MASTERED PFAL,

and the Mikean system requires that you

follow an esoteric and arbitrary set of rules

that sometimes completely contradict the contents of pfal,

and sometimes follow the dictates of some spirit Mike doesn't want

to discuss.

At this time,

I'd like to make a CALL FOR ACCLAMATION

to declare Mr Hammeroni UNDISPUTED MASTER OF PFAL

based on years of painstaking and unrelenting work,

exceeding that of any other poster here.