I have to admit you have totally lost me now. God doesn't change......but can we consider, at the least, some event in the history of mankind.....that changed how we now relate to God? Did something so amazing and phenomenal happen that made a way for us to be irrevocably reconciled to God? If so, maybe we should factor that into our theology when reading of Israel's impending judgement in Jeremiah rather than trying to apply that judgement to our life today.
You keep emphasizing that ALL of the evil in TWI and the splinter groups stems from a lack of the fear of God....but we can't define it? Is there any other theology that we might consider when looking at these groups that will help us unravel what we got caught up in and might offer some deliverance?
Would it surprise you if VP knew that God is the ultimate judge? That he knew the truth and turned away? That he just didn't care? He did come out of a church with some pretty sound theology and at one time he had to know the truth. I would bet he even recognized God's authority in all matters. False teachers rise up in the church. They know the truth.....they reject it and leave the church while pulling others away from it.
Vp was correct when he said it is all grace, but he took God's grace and perverted it by turning it into license to sin. God's grace is a way to grow in godliness and holiness. VP's perverting of what grace is doesn't mean that it is not all grace.
People still shake their fists at God.....knowingly have stubborn and unrepentant hearts, just like in Jeremiah's time. Judgement is reserved or stored up, but there will be judgement. Israel knew God.....they were afraid of Him. Did that ever stop them from rebelling? Shaking in their sandals one minute and shaking their fists the next. They knew His power and authority....they saw it. God delivered them time and time and time and time again. He displayed His might and they understood His holiness, yet they were constantly falling under His judgement for rebelling against Him.
Israel needed and awaited someone to save them......they were waiting for the whole world to be set back in order. They couldn't keep the law that they asked for for more than 5 minutes. Neither can you. They awaited the Messiah.
What else about TWI beside a lack of fear, that we can't define, might have been the cause of evil? Is there anything else VP did....... outside of turning grace into a license to sin ....... and not caring about God's judgement...... that may have caused blindness? Outside of curses and judgement I mean.
Where was Jesus Christ? Why did VP replace Jesus Christ with the written word? Where was his Lordship and why did VP need to redefine who Jesus Christ is and is not? Why did VP have to get rid of the cross? Why did he encourage disdain for the cross, the church, and encourage disdain for Jesus Christ? I won't even begin to ask about what we did with our understanding of the Holy Spirit, beside the fact that we turned Him into a freak show.....denying the Lord Jesus Christ is enough to start with.
Without that reciprocal love relationship......without the Lordship of Jesus Christ, who is God......and is the impediment to the desire to sin..... we were left with the outworking of the flesh and its natural tendencies. No big surprise there.
The evil of TWI comes from a outright blatant and bold rebellious denial of Jesus Christ, denial of His Lordship and a denial of the cross. VP denied the Lord who bought him and led us to do the same in arrogance and thankfully some of us did it in ignorance. How does any of that fit in with Jeremiah and Israel's impending judgement? We had Jesus and we rejected Him by redefining Him and making Him absent so of course sin and evil reigned......adultery, fornication, covetousness, impurity, passions, evil desires......idolatry.
Jesus Christ appears to still be missing from your theology. You are not called to Israel's judgement.......we are in for a worse one if we deny His Lordship and His work on the cross. I am wondering how He fits into your understanding of the fear of God. How does your faith in Him translate into falling under a curse? Did He not die in your place and take the punishment due to you so that you can be reconciled to God? If so, was that not enough or did you have to fall under a curse to come to faith? You have totally lost me.
Good posts Geisha and Wordwolf. They show more than just quoting scriptures and repeating phrases. They show good spiritual insight. They show a hunger for the truth and a love for God, Jesus Christ and all people. And they exhibit godly fruit of the spirit, especially humble thoughts and the desire to help others. I appreciate all the above.
Doing biblical study should be more than just reading verses. Anyone can do that. Satan himself can quote scripture and he often does only to distort the concepts. This has occured since Adam and Eve and continues today. To counteract this it is good to have a hunger for the truth and to pray to God for an understanding of the truth. When ever I study something in the scriptures and don't understand it I pray and ask God for understanding. He always seems to fill me with truth and I greatly appreciate this.
And here are addresses to two Christian educational web sites that I have authored to help others and express some of what I have learned.
You ask some worthwhile questions, geisha. Where was Jesus Christ? You state that Jesus Christ seems to be missing from my theology. WordWolf, you speculate as to what my be the cause of my apparent obsession with the fear of God. Time for some narrative.
The Lord Jesus Christ saved me in 1956 when I was 7 years old. In 1973, when I was 24 and going crazy, I called on God to help me in the name of Jesus Christ, and the same Lord delivered me from going crazy, and began teaching me how to change the things that were in my heart. That was six years before I ever heard of TWI and Wierwille. He never taught me audibly, but He would plant questions in my mind, and as I searched for the answers to the questions, I would learn the things He wanted me to know... literally years' worth of stuff.
I took PFAL in 1980, and disassociated myself in 1987, when I learned of Martindale's sexual predation from a personal friend of mine who had rejected Martindale's advances. There were times while I was involved with the Way when I heard the Lord speak to me more clearly than I had ever heard Him before. He let me know exactly, word for word, what to say to the Corps coordinator when I left in-rez training.
In the late-'80s I became involved with CES. I was on the editorial staff of CES' Dialogue newsletter, I taught at one of the CES Chicago meetings, and I taught on one of CES' monthly tapes. I attended John Lynn's weekly fellowship at his home, and he had me teach it when he was on the road. I had a more than casual relation with Lynn.
In the early-'90s, my life seemed to be going nowhere fast. I had developed a feeling of lassitude and helplessness. I was doing free-lance work, and I was being ripped-off too many times by clients. My wife was not happy with me. In the fall of 1994 I took the Momentus training that was being promoted by John, John and Mark. I DID receive some deliverance during the training, but in the weeks that followed, as the excitement wore off, things started going from bad to worse.
After about a year,it got to the point where I prayed "God, why is my life so f...ed up?" and I heard from him again. The first time I heard THAT clearly from Him since I left the Way. The same Lord Jesus Christ who had saved me at 7 and delivered me at 24 gave me to understand at 46 that I was under the curse of Jeremiah 17:5.
WHAT!?! HOW COULD THAT BE!?!
God doesn't put hoodoo curses on people, and especially not during the administration of grace!
And then that same Jesus prompted me to read what's actually written in Jeremiah 17:5,
"Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD."
It doesn't say that God puts hoodoo curses on people. It says there are bad, VERY BAD consequences for doing certain things. And it lists what those bad things are.
During the Momentus training, the trainees, myself included, had been manipulated into making a number of thoughtless promises, chief among which was the hold-harmless agreement. I had sworn an oath that I would not hold the Momentus trainers or sponsors responsible for ANY damage done by them in the training, to myself or to anybody else, even if that damage resulted in death!
That was a POWERFUL oath. I had trusted in man: Toccini, the sponsors and myself. I had made flesh, the artificially induced stress of thought reform processes, my strength. And I had allowed my heart to depart from the LORD.
In the Momentus training (as well as TWI and every splinter I have sufficient knowledge of) we were taught that once you made a vow, you were BOUND to fulfill it, no ifs, ands, or buts. But Jesus showed me that He would free me from the consequences of those foolish (anoetos - "thoughtless", Galatians 3:1,3) oaths, if I would simply repent. So I did. But He also wanted me to do it publically in front of a group of people who had also made those oaths, so they could see how to get out of trouble if they wanted to.
So I did that, too.
Over the next several years, the Lord, that same Jesus, taught me ramifications of that experience, and my observation, that ALL the evil that resulted from TWI came about because Wierwille taught us that we are not to fear God, that observation springs from those ramifications.
We will get into those things, but this is all I can write for now.
I am thankful to God that you all care for me!
And thank you too, Mark! I have considered you a thoughtful researcher and a good friend for a long time.
Thanks Steve. And you are correct about the researcher part. Yes, often in the bible, but also in other areas of knowledge. In fact, I just finished a programming course at a local community college. The Java programming language. Starting in about 3 weeks I am going to begin another community college course in PHP, another programming language specifically used for web sites. I love Jesus Christ and greatly appreciate Him enlightening US with truth. But I also want to be educated in other areas. And sometimes I use my web site technical study and education to help educate others with a knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Time for me to get some sleep. Happy new year everyone.
I didn't walk away from CES after the 1996 congregational meeting of The Living Word Fellowship, where I publically repented of the thoughtless promises I had made during the Momentus training, and John Lynn withstood me to my face. John Lynn was standing up, his nose inches from mine, reproving me for repenting within seconds of the time I had finished my public repentance... how twisted can it get! I didn't back down. I loved John, John and Mark as my brothers in Christ, and wanted to see them delivered too.
Part of the reason my life had turned so blah in the early-'90s was because I had stopped doing my own research, and had been parroting the CES teachings the same way I had parroted Wierwille's teachings in TWI. We had only gone so far in re-appraising what we had learned in PFAL. In terms of doctrine, CES rejected Wierwille's law of believing and tried (with only limited success) to recognize the Lordship of Jesus. In terms of practice, John, John and Mark were horrified by their former attitudes toward sex in TWI, and they became legalistic to the point of paranoia about their personal relations with women. They were NOT caught up during their CES time with the licentiousness of TWI.
After repenting of my involvement with Momentus, I regained initiative in a lot of areas of my life, and one of the things I started doing again was my own research. The first question I looked at was the validity of dispensationalsim, what Wierwille called getting the "administrations" right. I found out that dispensationalism is a cart load of horse manure, or as those who spent time at Gunnison might picture it, a dumptruck load of cow manure.
Dispensationalism works by eisegesis, reading foreign meanings into biblical words. Specifically, dispensationalism reads the meaning "a period of time" into the word oikonomia, which is actually "management" or "stewardship". The system obliviates what the New Testament says with the word aion or "age", and makes the New Covenant of no effect for the Church. That's why CES was only partially successful in recovering the significance of what it means for Jesus Christ to be Lord. Since the crucifixion occurred in the gospels, and the gospels are not addressed to the Church, dispensationalism literally makes the cross of no personal effect in the thinking of dispensationalist Christians. (How's that, geisha :) )
In the early days of CES, John, John and Mark were highly in favor of dialogue because they thought that the sheer logic of their position could convert the whole of Christianity to their way of thinking. Their newsletter was Dialogue. I was one of the editors in the early days, before John Lynn took on all those responsibilities for himself. After I learned the Scriptural truth about dispensationalism, I took advantage of every dialogue opportunity CES offered, to present the truth. Eventually, CES eliminated dialogue from their agenda (not just because of me though, there were a whole host of people poking holes in the doctrines they had inherited from TWI).
Sooo... one day about a decade ago, I was cruising the stacks in the local university library and I came across The Origins of Stoic Cosmology by David E. Hahm. It was a paradigm shocker, but more about that after I eat...
Thanks for sharing your experiences with CES and Momentous Steve. Interesting and I am thinking this while I am shaking my head and laughing at some of their stupidity on this. I know John Lynn and I like him. I consider him a friend, but just because you have a friend does not mean you can't say anything that you know is stupid and harmful. I am referring to Momentous. I only had a brief look at it and it was irritating to me. This was due to the arrogance that I saw in it mixed in with them trying to force feed their way of thinking into yours. With their leaders in meetings as I understand it, trying to control everything and every thought. This is pure B.S. Look at 1 Corinthians 14 and you might see what I am talking about. Where it has a church gathering with doctrine shared by different people and other people evaluating what is shared and expressed to make sure that what is taught is the pure word of God. And this is not just one person or a few people. This is a number of people contributing with the goal of pure truth from God's word being expressed. Do they have that in Momentous or it is just a form of them trying to brain wash people with them wanting to control every thought and action? I really appreciate people who speak the truth and endeaver to learn it and teach it. And that do it with humility, love and service for God's people. As long as I see this I am going to be nice and loving. But when I see a form of brain washing being attempted. I don't want to say anything with anger now, but I can get angry. I don't think they would have enjoyed my presence at a Momentous meeting. I might have done some chewing and then a lot of spitting out.
That reminds me. I forget what year this was, but John Lynn called me up at my home and asked me to take Momentous. I tried to be polite and told him no thank you and that I was not interested. However, he kept asking me to take Momentous and was sort of demanding about this. Of course, I kept teling him "no John. I am not going to take Momentous." I forget how many times he asked me and how many times I said no, but at some point I had to be very adament with him to get him to stop asking. Pretty silly of him to ask me to take this, but one good thing about this. The conversation made me not afraid to call John and ask him to do something that I thought would benefit him.
A year later or perhaps the same year, while I was in New Jersey, visiting a friend there. I also talked with Wordwolf on the phone during my stay and went to a club with him in New York city. I did call John up and told him about his ex wife (Elizabeth) based on what she wrote that I read a copy of on Grease Spot Cafe. The copy of this can still be found and read on Grease Spot Cafe. I told John, based on what I had read that she was biblically very truthful. And that unlike the lady from CES who she had a disagreement with seemed humble. The CES leader lady, so called prophetess or so she wanted to be I met with two other people at a CES meeting in the San Jose, CA area. We agreed that she came off as an arrogant person that was not good in a Christian church in service to God's people. John Lynn's ex-wife I told John looked like to me to be just the opposite. Very truthful and knowledgeable and would at least be good at editing John's writings. I asked him why they broke up? I forget what all John told me and all that I told him, but I did talk John into giving her a second chance in their relationship though. He contacted her later. They went on a date, as I understand. Saw from her that what I was expressing to him about her was true. Apparently they started dating again and remarried. I have not talked to John or his wife for a few years now, but she did call me at my office while I was out, left a message and thanked me for speaking up for her. Does anyone know if they are still married? I hope they are doing good, but as for Momentous, that needs to be stuck in the garbage disposal with the motor on at full speed and a little water mixed in with it.
This business of an angel beginning its message with "Fear not" goes back a LONG way into the Old Testament.
In a few places it's rather specific that the people had the superstition that if they saw an angel,
they would drop dead. So, the angel had to begin by calming them down sometimes, even specifying the
person would not drop dead. In one case (Samson's parents I think), an angel gives some lengthy
information concerning raising of a child who wasn't born yet-along with the announcement of his
conception, and then the angel leaves. Dad's freaking out because he's expecting them both to
drop dead. Mom is much more sensible. What would be the point of giving us instructions on raising
a child for several years, when he isn't even born yet and we're supposed to drop dead now?
Obviously, we're expected to live to raise him. It was an irrational fear the people added and
did no good for any of them.
It's my personal speculation that that specific superstition MIGHT be related to the angel of death
and the 10th plague on Egypt. Maybe.
Either way, that wasn't confirmation we're supposed to have anxiety when hearing from God- it was a
report of the failings of the listeners to actually LISTEN, and their failure to keep superstition
away from their expectations of God Almighty.
==============================
Concerning our attitude towards God, I think we all agree on PART of this.
"The proper position to hold concerning God Almighty is on one's knees, in awe of His Magnificence,
humble before Him and respectful to the utmost."
"vpw's serious plans to sin, where he purposed in his heart to give his life over to sin,
affected his doctrine and his practice, and poisoned his attitude towards God.
He claimed we were supposed to respect God, but in practice he gave God's Will for vpw all
the attention a dog gives a fire hydrant."
"When we sin, we should feel bad, and come to God Almighty, humble and sorry we sinned."
"God has made us beloved children, which doesn't change any of the above- as a child of such
an awesome God, we should approach Him on our knees."
Our instructions being what they are, I can see the sense of realizing one is messing up and
being "fearful" of God when one has sinned badly and deserves the consequences of those sins.
As to our attitude towards approaching God, as a son, I approach with love and thankfulness-
which doesn't change the awe and doesn't change His Majesty. With love towards Him, and the
reverence and awe He deserves, I take all His instructions seriously, and seek to do what
He says to do, and avoid what He says to avoid. I WANT to please Him because He deserves
to be pleased- not because I'm afraid of reprisals. I suppose the results might LOOK the
same, but the attitude of heart is completely different.
As for fearing other things, I can easily see people fearing other people and so on,
and have no need to flip from one extreme to the other. The 1611 meaning of "fear"
sometimes meant what we mean now as "fear" and sometimes meant what we mean now as "awe",
but in either case indicated strong emotion.
Concerning the angels I don't see anything in the text of superstition... There is nothing in the text suggesting adding irrational fear. It is just a record.... What facts do you have to present your theory that it was a superstition? For it to be added on is only an assumption especially since it happened every time for a long period of time as superstitions change. It makes more since that it happened exactly as it was recorded.
This is not a 1611 definition of fear. I do see a huge significance in the uses of the words. Again when people were terrorized like before God or when Jesus compared fear of men and saying we must fear him and reiterating it. Every time the word phobos was used. I have yet to see a verse that uses descriptions of a calm non scary respect associated with the word Phobos. But the MAJORITY at least is used with real terrifying fear. It seems wrong to suggest the definition changes because the object of the fear changes. Especially when used with descriptive words confirming a terrifying fear in correspondence to God.
I do believe there is a distinction between why someone is fearful between God and a ghost or a mean father. I still don't think you understand what I am communicating. This fear comes from not being punished at the base level. It is a realization of who God IS not what He can do. This is how Isaiah, Peter, John (After pentecost) responded to God or Jesus.
If the disciple whom Jesus Loved fell down at his feat in terror near the end of his life why do I think I am going to react any better to Jesus?
I must get going... I can't get into a lengthy post right now.
Sorry for being absent I have been at a convention for the last 5 days and then the holidays.... Hope all has been well and everyone had a Merry Christmas!
When I start writing about what I learned in the Stoic cosmology book, I'm going to have to wander what may seem like a long way off topic, so I'll reiterate where we're going to wind up. ALL of the misery of life experienced by Wierwille and his followers, including the followers of the TWI splinter groups, has come about as a result of the curse Jeremiah cited in 17:5. Different people experienced that curse to different degrees, and for different lengths of time, depending on how COMMITTED they were to what Wierwille taught. The tightness of the snare depends on a person's COMMITTMENT. The more committed we were to Wierwille's errors, the more tightly we were held. The reason we fell into the snare was because the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. The only antidote to the deceitfulness and wickedness of our own hearts is the genuine, honest-to-God fear of the LORD. The only release from the snare comes by CHANGING WHAT WE'RE COMMITTED TO. That's another way of saying "repent". When we change our committment from Wierwille's errors back to the Lord Jesus Christ, then HE is faithful to bring about the blessing of Jeremiah 17:7!
===========================
So there I was, cruising the stacks at the university library, when what should I see among the thousands of books on the shelves but The Origins of Stoic Cosmology by David E. Hahm. It wasn't a book on the Bible. It was a book about how certain philosophical ideas developed in antiquity. But it sparked my curiosity, so I checked it out and read it.
Wierwille taught that there are two realms, the spirit realm and the senses realm, and that the laws of the spirit or supernatural realm supercede the laws of the physical or natural realm. He taught that we could gain power in our lives if we learned the laws of the spirit realm and operated them. That seemed reasonaable enough. The idea of duel orders had been around since before Plato articulated it around 400 years before Jesus was born. The Church certainly held the idea from the time of Augustine about 400 years after Jesus was born.
The first Corps Principle was to acquire an in depth spiritual perception and awareness.
But I learned that the Stoic view was of a UNITARY not a dual cosmos. And much to my surprise, I learned that most people in the first century, including Paul's readers, understood life in terms of the Stoic, unitary cosmos. I started thinking about what that meant for interpreting the things Paul wrote.
That's where things stood in 2003, when I got into a fight with M--e at the Greasespot Cafe. He explained that there were no errors in PFAL because the spiritual meanings of what Wierwille taught superceded the senses-realm meanings, therefore the errors in PFAL were only apparent, and not real. Some of my present readers may remember a few of those exchanges.
We fought about a lot of things, but the one bone of contention that had lasting significance, to my thinking at least, was an argument over whether the word "senses" in Hebrews 5:14 meant supernatural senses or natural senses. M--e held that they just HAD to be spiritual. I contended they had to be our ordinary, everyday senses.
One day, while having lunch with my brother, I was explaining the whole fight to him, and I drew a diagram on a paper napkin showing how information flows from objective reality through the impressions of our senses into our minds, how the information that we pay habitual attention to becomes our attitudes of heart, and how our attitudes of heart flow back out into objective reality through our expressions.
My brother was teaching at a classical academy, and that fall, the headmaster hired me part-time to teach an aesthetics course based on the diagram. As time went by, I was taken on full-time to teach writing and humane letters, but my teaching on aesthetics grew into a curriculum I called Exercising Judgment: That Your Love May Abound, and I continued to develop and teach it over five years to 2008.
It was while I was working on Exercising Judgment that all of the things the Lord had taught me, about how to change the things that were in my heart, began to fall into place as parts of a coherent whole. That was when I started to see Jeremiah 17:5-10 as an integral passage, and not just a collection of individual verses haphazardly thrown together. That's when I started to understand how the deceitfulness of my heart, and its wickedness, had been played upon by Wierwille from the first time I sat through Power For Abundant Living, and it was when I began to realize how much more powerful the fear of God is than Wierwille had let on.
So... now I hope you understand that I'm not just coming up with this suff from out of the blue. There are deep, biblical reasons why I believe that the fear of God does NOT mean the kind of respect we give to an elderly uncle we are no longer expected to obey. I'm going to go into these things in much more detail, but I hope this sufficiently orients my readers to follow at least part of what I say until they get more used to my lingo.
Steve, the fundamental problem with both TWI and CES was pride and arrogance. They thought their doctrinal views were better than everyone elses by a wide margin. I warned CES about this in 2000 and this site still has a letter on it that I sent to the 3 CES leaders. Did you see this problem when you were with CES? Do you understand this? I even worked with someone from your state on trying to correct this fundamental CES problem. They did not take what I explained to them seriously so they ended up a few years later with an expensive legal cat fight which was a waste of time and money. And now that I think about it that might be why they have changed their church/ministry name.
How can anyone learn anything new if they think they already know everything? How can they correct any doctrinal errors if they think everything they believe and teach is true?
WordWolf, you speculate as to what my be the cause of my apparent obsession with the fear of God.
(snip)
/quote
I'm not SPECULATING anything- neither "the cause of" your "apparent obsession with the fear of God" or anything else.
I said:
"What I think is a problem is that Steve's understanding of the concepts of "fear" and "respect"
of God were so horribly abused and raped by vpw for vpw's purposes (furthering and facilitating
practices of his lusts) that Steve has spent years trying to come out from under that abuse
and put both into a healthy perspective in spite of long-term exposure to a degraded perv who
deserved to be put in prison for even HALF of what he did. I like Steve and I applaud his
efforts, but I think he's having difficulties seeing this discussion without seeing vpw's
perversion at the same time- which is understandable. I empathize and will pray for him, and
offer any assistance I can give on that."
Whatever else is on your mind on the subject, it's plaimly obvious to me that your posts keep circling back to refute a claim NOBODY here made and in fact, keep refuting-
the dysfunctional teaching of a pervert who taught in a perverse fashion to serve HIMSELF.
Wierwille didn't like the pain of the fear of the LORD, and he didn't want to repent (arrogance), so he did his best to drown out the pain with Drambuie, and with the endorphins released through sex (he bacame a sex addict).
Wierwille taught that Romans 11:20b, "Be not high-minded but fear..." could not be addressed to Christians, and spun a whole segment of PFAL baloney, lying about who Romans 11:20b was addressed to.
When he couldn't use that same excuse to disregard the fact that the word "fear" is addressed to Christians, such as Philippians 2:12b, "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," he taught that it doesn't mean fear, it just means respect. Well, it does carry a sense of respect, but the fear part of it is stronger than the respect part, and is emphasized by the "and trembling [tromos = trembling, shaking, shivering with fear]."
I believe that ALL the corruption, ALL the devastation, ALL the ruination, ALL the evil of TWI can be linked to the truth that Wierwille did not FEAR God, and he taught us that we shouldn't either... but that's a story for another day!
Love,
Steve
Wierwille liked to pretend that he arrived at his conclusions as a result of careful research, during which God would teach him the Word of God as it had not been known since the first century.
For the past two days I've been using Blue Letter Bible to do a cursory examination of the idea of "fear" in the Old Testament. It's one of the most fascinating things I've done in a long time, both for how radically different the things I am finding are from what Wierwille taught, and for the wonderfully intricate elegance of the idea.
Wierwille taught that fear is always negative, that it is believing in reverse, that it is sand in the machinery of life, that it always encases, always enslaves, always binds.
The truth is a little more complex and a lot more profitable than that!
(snip)
Love,
Steve
(snip)
If a person DESIRES to harbor pride and arrogancy in her or his own heart, then the fear of God can carry quite a bit of torment with it, torment that can be relieved only by becoming humble, and keeping God's commandments. Some people try to relieve the torment by ignoring the fear of God, which they do by flattering their own selves, or by redefining the fear of God as simply "respect". Or they try to deaden the torment with Drambuie and the endorphins of sexual activity. In the long run, those things don't work.
I still believe that ALL the evil perpetrated by TWI can be attributed to the truth that Wierwille did not fear God, and he taught us to do the same.
Love,
Steve
Wierwille taught that the "fear" of God doesn't mean that we are to fear Him, but that we are to "respect" Him.
"Respect" is indeed a major, perhaps the dominant component of "fear". ANY kind of fear.
What kind of respect did Wierwille mean? We see from the Scriptures that the proper "fear" or "respect" of God results in obedience to His Word, and this obedience casts out any accompanying torment.
In other parts of PFAL, Wierwille taught that we are no longer expected to be obedient to God. In this "wonderful administration of the grace of God", we get a free-pass on all our sins. There is no longer any thing wrong with sin, only with sin-consciousness. We can do anything we want, as long as we don't condemn ourselves for doing it.
I submit that "sin-consciousness" IS the fear of God in its reflexive component.
When people recognize the holiness of God, they are also compelled to acknowledge their own falling short of that holiness. Wierwille's definition of "respect" divorced the reflexive component of the fear of God from the awe and reverence component. Wierwille said, just pay attention to how wonderful God is, don't pay any attention to how you can come up to the standard He expects of you.
You can sing praise songs all day long, if you aren't moved to repent, you don't really respect God at all.
If you read back over my posts, I think I almost always qualified the way Wierwille taught us to respect God as the same way we would respect an elderly uncle we are no longer expected to obey.
The "fear" in the fear of God does NOT mean "fear" in the Pavlovian sense. But neither does it mean the reverence of singing praise songs all day with pride and arrogancy in our own hearts.
Love,
Steve
(snip)
Is the fear of God reverence, awe, etc., etc. YES, it is! But it also has a reflexive component. When we recognize the holiness of God, then we also recognize the elements in our hearts, pride and arrogancy, that cast themselves up in rebellion against God's holiness. The reverence of God includes a hatred of of the pride and arrogancy in our own hearts.
I am confident that a strong case can be made that the "pride and arrogancy" of Proverbs 8:13 are the desperate wickedness of Jeremiah 17:9.
Wierwille, in PFAL, sought to divorce the hatred of pride and arrogancy in our own hearts from reverence for God.
Does the goodness of God lead men to repentence? Yes it does, when people recognize that God is good, and they want to be LIKE him, making their holiness more complete or more finished through their works. Will their holiness become absolutely complete through their works? No, it will not. That will only happen when that which is perfect is come and we are changed.
Thank you, geisha!
Love,
Steve
I believe that ALL the problems brought on by TWI and its off-shoots can be traced back to the truth that there was no fear of God before Wierwille's eyes, and he trained all of us as well to ignore the fear of God to one degree or another.
I believe one of the greatest tools Wierwille used to teach us to ignore the fear of God was to reduce the meaning of "fear" in the TWI groupspeak to a one-dimensional entity whose only power was negative.
Wierwille taught that fear is believing in reverse, that it is sand in the machinery of life, that it always encases, always enslaves, always binds.
The truth is that God designed fear as an important survival mechanism, an emotion that drives an individual to seek a safe relation with the object of her or his fear.
Just as with every other aspect of life, fear has been distorted and abused since the fall. We are mistaken if we confuse the godly purposes of fear with its distortions and abuses... DANGEROUSLY mistaken! A person who does not recognize genuine fear is like a person who chews things before the dental novacaine has worn off. When the feeling comes back, he finds he has chewed up the insides of his cheeks and his tongue.
Wierwille said that the fear of God doesn't mean that we should fear God, but rather that we should "respect" Him. Now there IS an aspect of reverence and awe involved with the fear of God. Wierwille used the sugar-coating of that truth to fool us into swallowing the lie, that we are no longer expected to be obedient to God, that we can do whatever we damned-well-please without any consequences. But there is also a "fear" component to fear, as the word itself might suggest, a component which moves us to be obedient to God even if the thoughts and intents of our own hearts say it's perfectly all right to disobey.
The picture of "fear" in the Old Testament is more complicated than the idea presented in the New Testament, because the Greek words phobos/phobeo are used to translate a number of different Hebrew words. But this also indicates that the NT uses of phobos/phobeo are much more nuanced than Wierwille would have had us believe.
More later.
Love,
Steve
Here's an interesting use of the fear of God,
Jeremiah 2:19
"19 Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear [pachad] is not in thee, saith the Lord God of hosts."
Some people say that fear comes from punishment, and God doesn't punish us anymore. That may well be, but does God still allow our wickedness to correct us? and our backslidings to reprove us? There ARE consequences to not fearing God, and those consequences are evil and bitter.
The evil and bitterness associated with TWI stem from Wierwille's and his followers' failure to pay attention the fear of God, their failure to accept reproof when they departed from Him.
It was MY failure, too, to the degree that I accepted Wierwille's admonition that I should not fear God. I accepted God's reproof and repented of my pride and arrogance, and He delivered me. He'll do it for anybody who is willing to look honestly at the condition of his own heart.
Love,
Steve
I agree with everything you've said.
I think the problem we have in seeing eye-to-eye (to use the lingo of my current faith community) may be a result of the overly simplistic definition of "fear" that we learned. You wrote,"vpw had neither RESPECT, REGARD nor AWE of God, and used the TRAPPINGS while not actually CARING..." I submit that your use of the word "caring" may come more closely to the biblical sense of "fear/awe" than either of those words, "fear" and "awe", come in our everyday usage.
If we look at phobeo/phobos in the New Testament, it's hard to see how the single concept can be applied to both "terror", in the strictest sense of the word, and "respect" for God, but if we look at the various Hebrew words translated by phobeo/phobos, we can see there were nuances in the Old Testament that do not come out in the New Testament.
I don't really know where Wierwille got his definition of "fear" from, but it certainly wasn't from study of the Old Testament. For instance, let's look at Job 3:25, "For the thing which I greatly feared [pachad - Strong's #6342] is come upon me, and that which I was afraid [yagor - Strong's #3025] of is come unto me."
(snip)
Was Wierwille communicating the biblical truth to us when he said that "fear" doesn't really mean "fear", it simply means "respect". There was an elementary truth to what he said. "Fear" CAN mean "respect", but it can also mean many more things, things that are communicated by the numerous different but intertwined words for "fear" in the Old Testament, and things that are communicated by your use of the word "care", WordWolf.
(snip)
(snip)
And what happened? Did God switch them? No He did not! "Your iniquities have turned these things away. Your sins have withheld the good things." They got the consequences of their rebellion, but they couldn't understand why, because they had flattered themselves too much in their own eyes to even recognize that they were being rebellious.
Could there be a better description of The Way International than verses 26-28? Do they really think they can get away with it forever? Yes, they do, because there is no fear of God before their eyes.
(snip)
Love,
Steve
(snip)
When Wierwille said "fear" doesn't mean "fear", it means "respect", he left something very important out. I haven't yet figured out exactly how to say it in biblical terms, but I know I had to repent of it in 1996 before I could get out from under the curse of Jeremiah 17:5. I know it was the reason for the leaders' of CES blindness to the damage they were doing: hospitalizations, divorces and suicide attempts.
One of the things that not fearing God (whatever THAT means) does, is it blinds a person to the deceitfulness and wickedness, the pride and arrogance, of their own hearts, and blinds them to the arrogance and destructiveness of their own words and actions. BLINDS them! BLINDED ME!
Love,
Steve
The word of that depraved pervert keeps coming up over and over, re-introduced by you even though I keep trying to get us to agree
that he was WRONG and move on completely without him or anything he ever said.
I don't know ALL of what goes through your mind on this subject, but your POSTS seem to circle around a subject you
can't see past- which suggests to me this is where your thinking is on this subject.
(Otherwise you're putting on a performance for us-and I think your posts are 100% genuine and from the heart
(and so for the rest of us so far on this thread.)
(Some quote tags are broken because I couldn't get the reply to post with so many uses. So I left the data intact
Steve, the fundamental problem with both TWI and CES was pride and arrogance. They thought their doctrinal views were better than everyone elses by a wide margin. I warned CES about this in 2000 and this site still has a letter on it that I sent to the 3 CES leaders. Did you see this problem when you were with CES? Do you understand this? I even worked with someone from your state on trying to correct this fundamental CES problem. They did not take what I explained to them seriously so they ended up a few years later with an expensive legal cat fight which was a waste of time and money. And now that I think about it that might be why they have changed their church/ministry name.
How can anyone learn anything new if they think they already know everything? How can they correct any doctrinal errors if they think everything they believe and teach is true?
BINGO!
Proverbs 8:13
"13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate."
The inclination to pride and arrogancy is in people's hearts. That inclination is in EVERY person's heart. It is the desperate wickedness of Jeremiah 17:9.
The "evil way", and the "froward mouth" are when the abundance of pride and arrogance in a person's heart flows out into expression.
The Bible does not leave us guessing about what the fear of the LORD is. Yes, there is a component of awe when regarding God, but there is also a reflexive component of wanting to be safe with God by cleaning up our decisions and actions to make them what He wants them to be.
One last time..... as this is probably as frustrating for you as it is for me in continually trying to bring this conversation somewhere close to a Christ centered perspective. I give up. I gather WW is simply trying to keep it on topic without the looming specter of VP and trying to jettison our discussion from our common ground. I appreciate that as I moved well beyond VP's definition for anything and even while in TWI I knew JAL was a sadistic ego maniac. So, when discussing biblical concepts, tenets, or doctrine these men and groups have no influence in my perceptions. I seek a Christ centered theology as Christianity is a Christ centered faith. Our faith is centered around the person of Jesus Christ, His work, and everything in scripture points us to HIM. That includes not trusting our own hearts. Please consider that for a minute. However, that goes far beyond what we can discuss.
I get the impression from your last post and the caveat to "your readers" about your use of language that you have something to say and just want to be heard. I am not trying to discourage you, but I would like to encourage you to consider, yet again, how Jesus fits into you falling under a curse which is related specifically to Jeremiah's speaking of Israel's impending judgement.. And now I see it is all of us who were under this curse to some degree or another. What role does the cross of Christ play in your scenario? I do understand that you believe you are teaching something that stems from direct revelation from the Almighty. I sympathize with you.
I have to ask though......where exactly were you on the fear of God scale when you received this revelation? Were you fearing God perfectly? According to your sharing... the ONLY antidote to our deceitful hearts is the fear of the Lord.......so, if you didn't have that just where it should be when you heard from God.......how can you trust it was God and not your deceitful heart? You are working pretty hard at making this revelation fit into the word of God......and in the process you appear to be leaving out huge pieces of relevant theology. Christ is absolutely missing from what you are telling us, it is a word and works based understanding that leaves no room for Him.
Another thing I am curious about....and if it is too personal please forgive me......but, you mentioned that you were saved at age seven.....and from the dates you gave me I think you are now hovering around age 60? You cited age twenty as a time in your life when you again were seeking, so from 20-60 ....forty years you have been wandering? Just like Israel!
I am not going to ask you where the Lord was the whole time, but I would like to know where your faith was. That saving faith which binds us to the Lord?
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me
Instead of this elaborate theological puzzle in which you have been placed under a curse, an explanation which seems to satisfy you in answering the questions relating to the course of your life. And instead of the resulting solution which appears to be works which will now save you.......fear of the Lord will transform your heart....something you do for yourself.....and your perfect obedience will cast out fear. You know.....there is a far more simple explanation. You have yet to come to a saving faith.
Please, before your pride is pricked and ego bruised....remember they have no place before the Lord. There is no shame in examining if we are in the faith. Looking at what we believe and truly considering whom we have placed our faith in. You do have an answer for the why's to the course of your life, but does it glorify God? Does it consider the cross? Is it a Christ centered answer or is it a you centered answer? It is possible to ever learn and never come to a knowledge of the truth. Jesus Christ.
Concerning the angels I don't see anything in the text of superstition... There is nothing in the text suggesting adding irrational fear. It is just a record.... What facts do you have to present your theory that it was a superstition? For it to be added on is only an assumption especially since it happened every time for a long period of time as superstitions change. It makes more since that it happened exactly as it was recorded.
(snip)
Since this is an off-topic discussion, I made a new topic for it.
I John 4 has the composite statement on fearing God - this version states it thusly:
17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
19 We love because he first loved us.
I have a clearer vision and impression of life through Christ that in it's purest form removes the conflict of life, the dread of death and the fear of God's judgment.
I think we all know that this life can go in the toilet pretty quick. With Christ I have a view into God's perfect love and there I may be get goose bumps and chills at times but "fear" - no. Not in the sense that I do what I do because I know God can kick my asz at anytime. I already knew that. I know what that part might look like, at least to a degree. At that point I'm like a kid faced with an aggressive shark in the water. Same thing - I'm lunch, I know that. But I don't see God that way because He's "so loved the world" that He's "given His only Son", that I might be saved, brought to Him and made whole.
"Acceptance" is a word I use for it that reflects what I read in the inspired writings of the Bible.
I have feared many, many, many things in life over the years including God. Through Christ I don't fear God though. I just don't. The Shepherd and His sheep, the Way and those who follow. Etc. etc. Frankly I can't think of much I'm afraid of period. Food poisoning, some bad shell fish maybe. Funky plane flight. Bad news. Good things I'm not afraid of though and to me, God is good and goodness is swirling everywhere so there's plenty of good air to breathe where the fear is rare.
The immensity of the "respect" part of phobos, the fear of the Lord is much stronger however than a nod and a tip of the cap.
I really do believe, as many of you, that these things of God, Jesus Christ, God's passion for His creation and people, this life and the life to come - these are real things to me. When anyone enters into this arena to act on God's behalf - to teach, to advise, counsel, intervene, direct, pastor as with the Shepherd - we enter a very special place, "holy" and sacred. To "lead" or try to is not a casual effort. And anyone who gets mixed up in God's affairs in His name with ill intent, greed, to seek "one's own" they're going to end up s--t creek without a paddle. It always turns out badly.
I would probably put gratitude, thankfulness in the list of things that dare I say replace fear, and the Bible appears to put a "thankful heart" high on the list of attitudes.
An overwhelming sense of gratitude and thankfulness comes as a result of being mindful of the life in Christ. Humility. Through recognition of one's place in the world, with God and how we got there. Are getting there.
I think, in general it's easy to understand as we come in contact with Christ and enter into that hmmm....paradigm (yechy word but it's a new year) that's put forth.
To add: WW made the statement:
Ok, the concept I was referring to is more often called LANGUAGE DRIFT. But you can see it happens all the time, as long as a language is spoken-a "living" language. A "dead" language doesn't change.
This is an important point. "Folksonomy" in information architecture is where classifications of data are shared, more collaborative and can move and shift. As I've encountered that concept in my work it's reminded me a lot of how theology shifts.
To a certain extent, the information in the Bible is a known quantity. Add what one wants take out what another wants, put it all back in plus any variables and you have a sum total of data. Textual criticism does fundamental winnowing. The language issue is more stable than a changing living language as WW notes, which makes that work more doable. Even allowing for differences and disagreements and gray areas, the actual content of what we would then generally call "the Bible" can be known and a baseline can be established.
So - what do we get when we have a workforce of oh, I dunno, say 5,000,000 (pick any big number) workers of all the required areas of expertise, who put in oh I dunno, say 10,000 hours each (pick any big number) over a period of years - decades, millenia (pick any long period).....?
I don't think it's the knowledge that's lacking - there's plenty of that raw data stuff, much that the average person with minimal instruction can access not even counting the millions of trained, educated and passionate geniuses working on it.
And the work goes on, and improves, right?
If Biblical Research were a NASA space mission it seems like we'd be building Wal-Marts on Alpha Centauri by now.
I'm not suggesting that the work is done or that the conclusions on everything are clear but I do think that the work is doable and based on the language itself is more knowable and understandable than some theology makes it.
We encountered that in the Way - where "apparent contradictions" weren't allowed to stand in some cases because they simply "couldn't" mean or say what they appear to....there must be a mistake on man's part somewhere (well, duh...) or something somewhere that if we can just dig it up and shine the light on it just right will SAY WHAT IT HAS TO SAY, "in the original".
Anyway, yes, the Bible talks a lot about fear, but frankly I don't think the lack of fear is the root cause of VPW's direction or what went on in the Way.
Some people don't fear, don't care, don't give a crap, for whatever reasons and never will. You can beat on them all day and they don't care.
Some do and will get away with whatever they can. Fear of punishment doesn't produce doing the right thing in all cases, it can also produce avoidance, denial and dishonesty too. Lots of fear - lots of b-s too in that scenario.
12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
NIV
And between who was that dividing wall of hostility that Jesus Christ has destroyed?
Answer: Between God and men, women, boys and girls and maybe even pet dogs and cats.
1 Tim 2:5
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
NIV
Without Jesus Christ there would be very little relationship between God and man if any. In this case I think we would be fearful. However, with Jesus Christ there is no fear in a negative sense. When Jesus was walking the earth was anyone afraid of him? Did he do anything to mankind to cause fear? He might have chewed a few arrogant people up and then spit them out in debates, but who did he harm? What sane person would be afraid of such a man?
Jesus did frighten some demons or devil spirits though. I recall in a gospel record a legion of them whinning about where they did not want to be caste out to. The strong man that got the demons caste out of by Jesus sure felt better after Jesus did his thing. The demons may have feared Jesus, but I don't think the possessed man did. He needed His help and may have known this. But then some crazy people came up to Jesus after He healed the man and the bible does use the word fear at least in the King James Version for their thinking then. What a bunch of nuts that instead of thanking Jesus and patting him on the back and saying good job Jesus. They wanted him to leave. The possessed man in contrast wanted then to go with Jesus where ever he went. He even begged Jesus to let me go with you. But Jesus said to go home to your friends.
Some very unusual scriptures. You can read about this in Mark 5:9-20.
Somewhere I have (or had) a study of the "qualities of the new heart" of a Christian. It's not new science by any means. It works from the premise in the Bible that we have "new life" and are "new creations" in Christ. That new life has a "heart", an essence which is Christ like and Godly that tends toward it's own nature and the Godly side of the road.
In that it seems the things we read about in the Bible describe those things. Thankfulness is one. Humility is another. "Love" is a biggie. Honesty is another. These words describe the qualities of the new creation we are in Christ.
These qualities of the new nature provide the platform for how one sees and knows God. The human nature struggled, our new nature doesn't. The old nature feared, the new one doesn't. The old nature reasons and assumes, the new nature knows. The old nature is at war, the new at peace.
I would say that the "me" in that knows and understands his place as I learn and live. "Fear" of the Lord, of God, all of that, figures into that in that I am capable of having a grasp on who and what God really is as opposed to the external profile I would have looking at it mostly through the human nature senses. That side of me knows fear. I don't see that the new creation does although with awareness would come - well, awareness. I can see a glimpse of that now and I would put the "fear of the Lord" in that as it can be overwhelming if I see it as a product of human effort and comprehension.
Somewhere I have (or had) a study of the "qualities of the new heart" of a Christian. It's not new science by any means. It works from the premise in the Bible that we have "new life" and are "new creations" in Christ. That new life has a "heart", an essence which is Christ like and Godly that tends toward it's own nature and the Godly side of the road.
In that it seems the things we read about in the Bible describe those things. Thankfulness is one. Humility is another. "Love" is a biggie. Honesty is another. These words describe the qualities of the new creation we are in Christ.
These qualities of the new nature provide the platform for how one sees and knows God. The human nature struggled, our new nature doesn't. The old nature feared, the new one doesn't. The old nature reasons and assumes, the new nature knows. The old nature is at war, the new at peace.
I would say that the "me" in that knows and understands his place as I learn and live. "Fear" of the Lord, of God, all of that, figures into that in that I am capable of having a grasp on who and what God really is as opposed to the external profile I would have looking at it mostly through the human nature senses. That side of me knows fear. I don't see that the new creation does although with awareness would come - well, awareness. I can see a glimpse of that now and I would put the "fear of the Lord" in that as it can be overwhelming if I see it as a product of human effort and comprehension.
Really, really nice post.....I think the way we come to live that new nature is by the decisions we make. Just like in any relationship, love and commitment help us to make the right decisions and of course, we love Him because He first loved us. His love was displayed for us in what seems an almost paradoxical way, but it is love with justice met and unfathomable mercy extended. On the cross, we can see the serious meaning of sin by how the price was paid. I suppose Jesus could have died by machine gun....but, He didn't. That is not how God reached out to us.....it was crucifixion. Crucifixion was an agonizingly painful and humiliating way to die. For those interested in words.....it was excruciating. Sin truly separates us from God.
Jesus never sinned. Yet, Jesus, a perfect and blameless sacrifice took on the sins of the world and paid the price for sin.....once and for all. God's final word on the matter and the way He made for us to reconciled to Him. Justice was met while amazing love was being extended through suffering. The cross is beautiful in its revelation of grace, mercy and love. It is paradoxical that such suffering could reveal God's love and power. It is paradoxical that evil was met with good. The fear of God is in the recognition of God... I think we all agreed on that. How we recognize God is where some of us differed.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18
Once we come to the cross and see the commitment and love of Jesus and truly accept the way He made......it is the beginning of a relationship. A part of the reason I strongly reject the notion that we can truly come up against the cross and accept the way made for us and then just wander off for most of our life, is that commitment and love relationship that begins at the cross. The transformation which begins in the realization of God's power, mercy and love and His great commitment to us.... is a new heart. It is His work....all of it. It is all grace and mercy. God is absolutely faithful even when we are not and He is absolutely able to keep us and create in us a new heart.
The sacrifice is enough. We don't need to be blinded after coming to the cross...... it opens our eyes to God's love and power. We certainly don't need to be blinded and fall under judgement. The point is.....the price is paid and God's justice is satisfied. Everything we need is already done for us. It is about faith and trust. Do we really see what was accomplished, do we really understand what was done? Do we accept it and confess and commit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ?
Our confidence before God can't rely on our abilities, but faith in Jesus. That is not say there isn't going to be challenges. We are to take up our own cross and follow Him. One of the ways we know we are in relationship with Him is obedience, but that obedience is borne out of love. It can be difficult and sometimes painful to follow the Lord. Not only is there persecution, although not really so much here, but our two natures war with each other. We are often in battle with self. Jesus didn't say it would be easy.
Grace, is extended for those times when we are in a struggle and we really can ask God for the grace we need to get through them. He understands what it means to be tempted, He is not without compassion, and He is not without mercy. He does test and challenge our faith. I have been confronted with a faith that was lacking more than once but, each time I am faced with that I am extended forgiveness and grace to grow in faith. Amazing God.
One of the icky realizations I had to come to while examining my time in TWI was that I had never fully come to the cross and understood it at all. I was too busy yakking about machine guns and flaunting my Holy Spirit dove. There is nothing wrong with the Holy Spirit dove unless it is replacing the cross. For me it did. Many of us argued over words and the meaning of words and focused on the little things while missing the bigger things.
The scriptures tell us that false teachers prey on people burdened by sin....unstable souls.....they catch people who are searching or new in their faith. They usually target younger people and those with no church to watch out for them. For me, it was most of the above. Thankfully it is not irreversible and God is still reaching out with love and forgiveness through the cross of Christ and His resurrection from the dead. It does matter how He died, why He suffered, and who He is. It is good to go back to the very basics and really look at what we believe. Jesus is enough, God's sacrifice is enough, and God is faithful even when we are not....He won't let us wander too far. :)
According to Protestant tradition, there are 5 "solas":
Scripture alone,
Faith alone,
Grace alone,
Christ alone and
Glory to God alone.
Whether Protestant traditions have any more validity than Roman Catholic traditions is open to question, since both traditions go back to Augustine's Neo-platonic misinterpretations of the New Testament writers' Stoic terminology. There's a good study in "linguistic drift" for anybody who needs a topic for a master's thesis!
At any rate, even Protestants are willing to sacrifice "scriptura sola" when it can be demonstatrated that the Bible contradicts some of their other pet theologies.
For instance, according to II Timothy 3:16&17, ALL Scripture (which includes Jeremiah and Ezekiel) is useful for teaching, for reproving, for correcting and for instructing in righteousness. If Christ is the primary subject of the Bible from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21, then how can people say that they don't see Christ in Jeremiah and Ezekiel, unless they are admitting that they have an imperfect understanding of the Bible. Which is something I freely admit to. If I believe that I already know everything there is to know, I will never be able to grow in my understanding.
And by the way, the purpose of teaching, reproving, correcting and instructing in righteousness is so that a person can be completely outfitted to do good WORKS! "WORKS" God says! HUH!?! Would God say "WORKS"?
So, let's look at Ezekiel 11:17,19-20, 36:24,26 and 18:31 to see what teaching, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness we can extract from them, so that we will be better equipped to do good works.
Ezekiel 11:17,19-20
"17 Therefore say, Thus saith the LORD God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
...
"19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them an heart of flesh:
"20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God."
First, the context of receiving a new heart is the gathering together, when we shall receive our resurrection spirits in the age to come, at Christ's appearing.
Second, the purpose of the new heart will be that we can DO (WORKS) the will of God.
Third, the Holy Spirit that was first poured out on the Day of Pentecost is not the spirit of resurrection life in the age to come, it is the earnest of that inheritance.
Ezekiel 36:24,26
"24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.
...
"26 A new heart also I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
Again, the context of a God-given new heart is the resurrection at the gathering together.
What are we supposed to do until Jesus appears, the dead in Christ are raised, and we who remain are changed?
Ezekiel 18:31
"31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"
MAKE you a new heart and a new spirit! Until Jesus appears, we are to work on fixing up as much of our hears as we can. We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. We are to perfect holiness in the fear of God.
If you think there's something wrong with that, then you need to take it up with Paul, the writer of Romans, not with me.
MAKE you a new heart and a new spirit! Until Jesus appears, we are to work on fixing up as much of our hears as we can. We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. We are to perfect holiness in the fear of God.
If you think there's something wrong with that, then you need to take it up with Paul, the writer of Romans, not with me.
Love,
Steve
A) I snipped most of the post because nobody was disagreeing with it and I didn't see its direct relevance
to the topic. (All Scripture is INdirectly related, but this topic would need thousands of pages if we
were going to follow all the indirect discussions no matter how tangential.) If there was a direct
relevance, I didn't see the connection.
B) How about we get a verse reference for the one thing that directly related to the thread,
your quote about "fear and trembling"?
Philippians 2:12 KJV
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
How about other versions on the same verse?
Philippians 2:12 NASB
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:12 CEV
12My dear friends, you always obeyed when I was with you. Now that I am away, you should obey even more. So work with fear and trembling to discover what it really means to be saved.
What's the context of the verse? Approach the things of God with HUMILITY and grave respect.
Philippians 2:1-18 (NASB)
1 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, 2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all. 18 You too, I urge you, rejoice in the same way and share your joy with me.
The context of the phrase is HUMILITY, approaching God with an attitude akin to being on your knees before Him.
We've been saying that all along. I don't even get what this added to the discussion,
except a sort of "I didn't write the book!" comment after presuming the verses suggested we were
supposed to be all "AAAAAHHH!" about God. Honestly, Steve, if I thought that was all you could bring
to the table, I'd just ignore it, but I know you have so much more to offer. You're trying to communicate
something important on your heart, and I think there's a disconnect between your mind and my mind
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geisha779
Steve,
I have to admit you have totally lost me now. God doesn't change......but can we consider, at the least, some event in the history of mankind.....that changed how we now relate to God? Did something so amazing and phenomenal happen that made a way for us to be irrevocably reconciled to God? If so, maybe we should factor that into our theology when reading of Israel's impending judgement in Jeremiah rather than trying to apply that judgement to our life today.
You keep emphasizing that ALL of the evil in TWI and the splinter groups stems from a lack of the fear of God....but we can't define it? Is there any other theology that we might consider when looking at these groups that will help us unravel what we got caught up in and might offer some deliverance?
Would it surprise you if VP knew that God is the ultimate judge? That he knew the truth and turned away? That he just didn't care? He did come out of a church with some pretty sound theology and at one time he had to know the truth. I would bet he even recognized God's authority in all matters. False teachers rise up in the church. They know the truth.....they reject it and leave the church while pulling others away from it.
Vp was correct when he said it is all grace, but he took God's grace and perverted it by turning it into license to sin. God's grace is a way to grow in godliness and holiness. VP's perverting of what grace is doesn't mean that it is not all grace.
People still shake their fists at God.....knowingly have stubborn and unrepentant hearts, just like in Jeremiah's time. Judgement is reserved or stored up, but there will be judgement. Israel knew God.....they were afraid of Him. Did that ever stop them from rebelling? Shaking in their sandals one minute and shaking their fists the next. They knew His power and authority....they saw it. God delivered them time and time and time and time again. He displayed His might and they understood His holiness, yet they were constantly falling under His judgement for rebelling against Him.
Israel needed and awaited someone to save them......they were waiting for the whole world to be set back in order. They couldn't keep the law that they asked for for more than 5 minutes. Neither can you. They awaited the Messiah.
What else about TWI beside a lack of fear, that we can't define, might have been the cause of evil? Is there anything else VP did....... outside of turning grace into a license to sin ....... and not caring about God's judgement...... that may have caused blindness? Outside of curses and judgement I mean.
Where was Jesus Christ? Why did VP replace Jesus Christ with the written word? Where was his Lordship and why did VP need to redefine who Jesus Christ is and is not? Why did VP have to get rid of the cross? Why did he encourage disdain for the cross, the church, and encourage disdain for Jesus Christ? I won't even begin to ask about what we did with our understanding of the Holy Spirit, beside the fact that we turned Him into a freak show.....denying the Lord Jesus Christ is enough to start with.
Without that reciprocal love relationship......without the Lordship of Jesus Christ, who is God......and is the impediment to the desire to sin..... we were left with the outworking of the flesh and its natural tendencies. No big surprise there.
The evil of TWI comes from a outright blatant and bold rebellious denial of Jesus Christ, denial of His Lordship and a denial of the cross. VP denied the Lord who bought him and led us to do the same in arrogance and thankfully some of us did it in ignorance. How does any of that fit in with Jeremiah and Israel's impending judgement? We had Jesus and we rejected Him by redefining Him and making Him absent so of course sin and evil reigned......adultery, fornication, covetousness, impurity, passions, evil desires......idolatry.
Jesus Christ appears to still be missing from your theology. You are not called to Israel's judgement.......we are in for a worse one if we deny His Lordship and His work on the cross. I am wondering how He fits into your understanding of the fear of God. How does your faith in Him translate into falling under a curse? Did He not die in your place and take the punishment due to you so that you can be reconciled to God? If so, was that not enough or did you have to fall under a curse to come to faith? You have totally lost me.
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WordWolf
I think that, in part, we are agreeing on some important things.
A) The "fear of God" is a thing that is not really a matter of being scared of God,
but driven to one's knees or flat on the floor in humility before a God who deserves
the most awe-stricken respect, and who COULD do things that would produce the most
abject TERROR and HORROR into us, but loves us enough to limit HIMSELF and allow us
to make our own choices even when we are stupid and disobedient to what are
sensible instructions meant to avoid pain and suffering for us.
B) vpw was a depraved pervert who deceived people and abused God's people and God's Word
to promote the lusts of his flesh, the lusts of his eyes, and his pride of life.
In doing so, he taught perversions of many things of God (sometimes passing along some
non-perversions and good teachings from others) that affect people until they are healed
or recovered from his abuse.
C) The word "fear" as in "fear of God" is a broad term that encompasses BOTH what we
think of as "fear" and "anxiety", and what we think of as "respect" and "awe"-
but in either case, in large amounts sufficient to drive one to one's knees in
humility.
What I think is a problem is that Steve's understanding of the concepts of "fear" and "respect"
of God were so horribly abused and raped by vpw for vpw's purposes (furthering and facilitating
practices of his lusts) that Steve has spent years trying to come out from under that abuse
and put both into a healthy perspective in spite of long-term exposure to a degraded perv who
deserved to be put in prison for even HALF of what he did. I like Steve and I applaud his
efforts, but I think he's having difficulties seeing this discussion without seeing vpw's
perversion at the same time- which is understandable. I empathize and will pray for him, and
offer any assistance I can give on that.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Good posts Geisha and Wordwolf. They show more than just quoting scriptures and repeating phrases. They show good spiritual insight. They show a hunger for the truth and a love for God, Jesus Christ and all people. And they exhibit godly fruit of the spirit, especially humble thoughts and the desire to help others. I appreciate all the above.
Doing biblical study should be more than just reading verses. Anyone can do that. Satan himself can quote scripture and he often does only to distort the concepts. This has occured since Adam and Eve and continues today. To counteract this it is good to have a hunger for the truth and to pray to God for an understanding of the truth. When ever I study something in the scriptures and don't understand it I pray and ask God for understanding. He always seems to fill me with truth and I greatly appreciate this.
And here are addresses to two Christian educational web sites that I have authored to help others and express some of what I have learned.
http://www.christianherald.info
http://www.christian-universalism.info
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Steve Lortz
You ask some worthwhile questions, geisha. Where was Jesus Christ? You state that Jesus Christ seems to be missing from my theology. WordWolf, you speculate as to what my be the cause of my apparent obsession with the fear of God. Time for some narrative.
The Lord Jesus Christ saved me in 1956 when I was 7 years old. In 1973, when I was 24 and going crazy, I called on God to help me in the name of Jesus Christ, and the same Lord delivered me from going crazy, and began teaching me how to change the things that were in my heart. That was six years before I ever heard of TWI and Wierwille. He never taught me audibly, but He would plant questions in my mind, and as I searched for the answers to the questions, I would learn the things He wanted me to know... literally years' worth of stuff.
I took PFAL in 1980, and disassociated myself in 1987, when I learned of Martindale's sexual predation from a personal friend of mine who had rejected Martindale's advances. There were times while I was involved with the Way when I heard the Lord speak to me more clearly than I had ever heard Him before. He let me know exactly, word for word, what to say to the Corps coordinator when I left in-rez training.
In the late-'80s I became involved with CES. I was on the editorial staff of CES' Dialogue newsletter, I taught at one of the CES Chicago meetings, and I taught on one of CES' monthly tapes. I attended John Lynn's weekly fellowship at his home, and he had me teach it when he was on the road. I had a more than casual relation with Lynn.
In the early-'90s, my life seemed to be going nowhere fast. I had developed a feeling of lassitude and helplessness. I was doing free-lance work, and I was being ripped-off too many times by clients. My wife was not happy with me. In the fall of 1994 I took the Momentus training that was being promoted by John, John and Mark. I DID receive some deliverance during the training, but in the weeks that followed, as the excitement wore off, things started going from bad to worse.
After about a year,it got to the point where I prayed "God, why is my life so f...ed up?" and I heard from him again. The first time I heard THAT clearly from Him since I left the Way. The same Lord Jesus Christ who had saved me at 7 and delivered me at 24 gave me to understand at 46 that I was under the curse of Jeremiah 17:5.
WHAT!?! HOW COULD THAT BE!?!
God doesn't put hoodoo curses on people, and especially not during the administration of grace!
And then that same Jesus prompted me to read what's actually written in Jeremiah 17:5,
"Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD."
It doesn't say that God puts hoodoo curses on people. It says there are bad, VERY BAD consequences for doing certain things. And it lists what those bad things are.
During the Momentus training, the trainees, myself included, had been manipulated into making a number of thoughtless promises, chief among which was the hold-harmless agreement. I had sworn an oath that I would not hold the Momentus trainers or sponsors responsible for ANY damage done by them in the training, to myself or to anybody else, even if that damage resulted in death!
That was a POWERFUL oath. I had trusted in man: Toccini, the sponsors and myself. I had made flesh, the artificially induced stress of thought reform processes, my strength. And I had allowed my heart to depart from the LORD.
In the Momentus training (as well as TWI and every splinter I have sufficient knowledge of) we were taught that once you made a vow, you were BOUND to fulfill it, no ifs, ands, or buts. But Jesus showed me that He would free me from the consequences of those foolish (anoetos - "thoughtless", Galatians 3:1,3) oaths, if I would simply repent. So I did. But He also wanted me to do it publically in front of a group of people who had also made those oaths, so they could see how to get out of trouble if they wanted to.
So I did that, too.
Over the next several years, the Lord, that same Jesus, taught me ramifications of that experience, and my observation, that ALL the evil that resulted from TWI came about because Wierwille taught us that we are not to fear God, that observation springs from those ramifications.
We will get into those things, but this is all I can write for now.
I am thankful to God that you all care for me!
And thank you too, Mark! I have considered you a thoughtful researcher and a good friend for a long time.
Love,
Steve
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Mark Sanguinetti
Thanks Steve. And you are correct about the researcher part. Yes, often in the bible, but also in other areas of knowledge. In fact, I just finished a programming course at a local community college. The Java programming language. Starting in about 3 weeks I am going to begin another community college course in PHP, another programming language specifically used for web sites. I love Jesus Christ and greatly appreciate Him enlightening US with truth. But I also want to be educated in other areas. And sometimes I use my web site technical study and education to help educate others with a knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Time for me to get some sleep. Happy new year everyone.
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cman
when God and Satan are separated from yourself
you are left with trying to see from a perspective that is distant from reality
good point about fear in the presence of an 'angel of God'
of god, is the very nature of god
an angel is, god
part of yourself being revealed
as you are a son of god, of the very nature of god
the individual and god can not be separated
without the subjective, the objective is without any meaning at all
so nice to see you share your life like you did Steve
cause answers will not be in meanings and definitions of words in the scripture
but in actual hands on, living life day by day
have I feared god? You bet, more then once
meaning afraid in it's very real sense
not that god would harm me
but, i am of god, and what can be revealed in me
as well as with me, (which the 2 can not be separated)
can be frightening to see
fortunately, there is peace and many things in me that can keep me sane as well
what one may fear another may rejoice in seeing
depending on patience mainly, and perspective
i try not to jump too fast
when only seeing part,
keeping in mind it's not the whole thing
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Steve Lortz
Time for a little more narrative...
I didn't walk away from CES after the 1996 congregational meeting of The Living Word Fellowship, where I publically repented of the thoughtless promises I had made during the Momentus training, and John Lynn withstood me to my face. John Lynn was standing up, his nose inches from mine, reproving me for repenting within seconds of the time I had finished my public repentance... how twisted can it get! I didn't back down. I loved John, John and Mark as my brothers in Christ, and wanted to see them delivered too.
Part of the reason my life had turned so blah in the early-'90s was because I had stopped doing my own research, and had been parroting the CES teachings the same way I had parroted Wierwille's teachings in TWI. We had only gone so far in re-appraising what we had learned in PFAL. In terms of doctrine, CES rejected Wierwille's law of believing and tried (with only limited success) to recognize the Lordship of Jesus. In terms of practice, John, John and Mark were horrified by their former attitudes toward sex in TWI, and they became legalistic to the point of paranoia about their personal relations with women. They were NOT caught up during their CES time with the licentiousness of TWI.
After repenting of my involvement with Momentus, I regained initiative in a lot of areas of my life, and one of the things I started doing again was my own research. The first question I looked at was the validity of dispensationalsim, what Wierwille called getting the "administrations" right. I found out that dispensationalism is a cart load of horse manure, or as those who spent time at Gunnison might picture it, a dumptruck load of cow manure.
Dispensationalism works by eisegesis, reading foreign meanings into biblical words. Specifically, dispensationalism reads the meaning "a period of time" into the word oikonomia, which is actually "management" or "stewardship". The system obliviates what the New Testament says with the word aion or "age", and makes the New Covenant of no effect for the Church. That's why CES was only partially successful in recovering the significance of what it means for Jesus Christ to be Lord. Since the crucifixion occurred in the gospels, and the gospels are not addressed to the Church, dispensationalism literally makes the cross of no personal effect in the thinking of dispensationalist Christians. (How's that, geisha :) )
In the early days of CES, John, John and Mark were highly in favor of dialogue because they thought that the sheer logic of their position could convert the whole of Christianity to their way of thinking. Their newsletter was Dialogue. I was one of the editors in the early days, before John Lynn took on all those responsibilities for himself. After I learned the Scriptural truth about dispensationalism, I took advantage of every dialogue opportunity CES offered, to present the truth. Eventually, CES eliminated dialogue from their agenda (not just because of me though, there were a whole host of people poking holes in the doctrines they had inherited from TWI).
Sooo... one day about a decade ago, I was cruising the stacks in the local university library and I came across The Origins of Stoic Cosmology by David E. Hahm. It was a paradigm shocker, but more about that after I eat...
Love,
Steve
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Mark Sanguinetti
Thanks for sharing your experiences with CES and Momentous Steve. Interesting and I am thinking this while I am shaking my head and laughing at some of their stupidity on this. I know John Lynn and I like him. I consider him a friend, but just because you have a friend does not mean you can't say anything that you know is stupid and harmful. I am referring to Momentous. I only had a brief look at it and it was irritating to me. This was due to the arrogance that I saw in it mixed in with them trying to force feed their way of thinking into yours. With their leaders in meetings as I understand it, trying to control everything and every thought. This is pure B.S. Look at 1 Corinthians 14 and you might see what I am talking about. Where it has a church gathering with doctrine shared by different people and other people evaluating what is shared and expressed to make sure that what is taught is the pure word of God. And this is not just one person or a few people. This is a number of people contributing with the goal of pure truth from God's word being expressed. Do they have that in Momentous or it is just a form of them trying to brain wash people with them wanting to control every thought and action? I really appreciate people who speak the truth and endeaver to learn it and teach it. And that do it with humility, love and service for God's people. As long as I see this I am going to be nice and loving. But when I see a form of brain washing being attempted. I don't want to say anything with anger now, but I can get angry. I don't think they would have enjoyed my presence at a Momentous meeting. I might have done some chewing and then a lot of spitting out.
That reminds me. I forget what year this was, but John Lynn called me up at my home and asked me to take Momentous. I tried to be polite and told him no thank you and that I was not interested. However, he kept asking me to take Momentous and was sort of demanding about this. Of course, I kept teling him "no John. I am not going to take Momentous." I forget how many times he asked me and how many times I said no, but at some point I had to be very adament with him to get him to stop asking. Pretty silly of him to ask me to take this, but one good thing about this. The conversation made me not afraid to call John and ask him to do something that I thought would benefit him.
A year later or perhaps the same year, while I was in New Jersey, visiting a friend there. I also talked with Wordwolf on the phone during my stay and went to a club with him in New York city. I did call John up and told him about his ex wife (Elizabeth) based on what she wrote that I read a copy of on Grease Spot Cafe. The copy of this can still be found and read on Grease Spot Cafe. I told John, based on what I had read that she was biblically very truthful. And that unlike the lady from CES who she had a disagreement with seemed humble. The CES leader lady, so called prophetess or so she wanted to be I met with two other people at a CES meeting in the San Jose, CA area. We agreed that she came off as an arrogant person that was not good in a Christian church in service to God's people. John Lynn's ex-wife I told John looked like to me to be just the opposite. Very truthful and knowledgeable and would at least be good at editing John's writings. I asked him why they broke up? I forget what all John told me and all that I told him, but I did talk John into giving her a second chance in their relationship though. He contacted her later. They went on a date, as I understand. Saw from her that what I was expressing to him about her was true. Apparently they started dating again and remarried. I have not talked to John or his wife for a few years now, but she did call me at my office while I was out, left a message and thanked me for speaking up for her. Does anyone know if they are still married? I hope they are doing good, but as for Momentous, that needs to be stuck in the garbage disposal with the motor on at full speed and a little water mixed in with it.
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Naten00
Concerning the angels I don't see anything in the text of superstition... There is nothing in the text suggesting adding irrational fear. It is just a record.... What facts do you have to present your theory that it was a superstition? For it to be added on is only an assumption especially since it happened every time for a long period of time as superstitions change. It makes more since that it happened exactly as it was recorded.
This is not a 1611 definition of fear. I do see a huge significance in the uses of the words. Again when people were terrorized like before God or when Jesus compared fear of men and saying we must fear him and reiterating it. Every time the word phobos was used. I have yet to see a verse that uses descriptions of a calm non scary respect associated with the word Phobos. But the MAJORITY at least is used with real terrifying fear. It seems wrong to suggest the definition changes because the object of the fear changes. Especially when used with descriptive words confirming a terrifying fear in correspondence to God.
I do believe there is a distinction between why someone is fearful between God and a ghost or a mean father. I still don't think you understand what I am communicating. This fear comes from not being punished at the base level. It is a realization of who God IS not what He can do. This is how Isaiah, Peter, John (After pentecost) responded to God or Jesus.
If the disciple whom Jesus Loved fell down at his feat in terror near the end of his life why do I think I am going to react any better to Jesus?
I must get going... I can't get into a lengthy post right now.
Sorry for being absent I have been at a convention for the last 5 days and then the holidays.... Hope all has been well and everyone had a Merry Christmas!
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Steve Lortz
It's good to have you back, Naten!
When I start writing about what I learned in the Stoic cosmology book, I'm going to have to wander what may seem like a long way off topic, so I'll reiterate where we're going to wind up. ALL of the misery of life experienced by Wierwille and his followers, including the followers of the TWI splinter groups, has come about as a result of the curse Jeremiah cited in 17:5. Different people experienced that curse to different degrees, and for different lengths of time, depending on how COMMITTED they were to what Wierwille taught. The tightness of the snare depends on a person's COMMITTMENT. The more committed we were to Wierwille's errors, the more tightly we were held. The reason we fell into the snare was because the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. The only antidote to the deceitfulness and wickedness of our own hearts is the genuine, honest-to-God fear of the LORD. The only release from the snare comes by CHANGING WHAT WE'RE COMMITTED TO. That's another way of saying "repent". When we change our committment from Wierwille's errors back to the Lord Jesus Christ, then HE is faithful to bring about the blessing of Jeremiah 17:7!
===========================
So there I was, cruising the stacks at the university library, when what should I see among the thousands of books on the shelves but The Origins of Stoic Cosmology by David E. Hahm. It wasn't a book on the Bible. It was a book about how certain philosophical ideas developed in antiquity. But it sparked my curiosity, so I checked it out and read it.
Wierwille taught that there are two realms, the spirit realm and the senses realm, and that the laws of the spirit or supernatural realm supercede the laws of the physical or natural realm. He taught that we could gain power in our lives if we learned the laws of the spirit realm and operated them. That seemed reasonaable enough. The idea of duel orders had been around since before Plato articulated it around 400 years before Jesus was born. The Church certainly held the idea from the time of Augustine about 400 years after Jesus was born.
The first Corps Principle was to acquire an in depth spiritual perception and awareness.
But I learned that the Stoic view was of a UNITARY not a dual cosmos. And much to my surprise, I learned that most people in the first century, including Paul's readers, understood life in terms of the Stoic, unitary cosmos. I started thinking about what that meant for interpreting the things Paul wrote.
That's where things stood in 2003, when I got into a fight with M--e at the Greasespot Cafe. He explained that there were no errors in PFAL because the spiritual meanings of what Wierwille taught superceded the senses-realm meanings, therefore the errors in PFAL were only apparent, and not real. Some of my present readers may remember a few of those exchanges.
We fought about a lot of things, but the one bone of contention that had lasting significance, to my thinking at least, was an argument over whether the word "senses" in Hebrews 5:14 meant supernatural senses or natural senses. M--e held that they just HAD to be spiritual. I contended they had to be our ordinary, everyday senses.
One day, while having lunch with my brother, I was explaining the whole fight to him, and I drew a diagram on a paper napkin showing how information flows from objective reality through the impressions of our senses into our minds, how the information that we pay habitual attention to becomes our attitudes of heart, and how our attitudes of heart flow back out into objective reality through our expressions.
My brother was teaching at a classical academy, and that fall, the headmaster hired me part-time to teach an aesthetics course based on the diagram. As time went by, I was taken on full-time to teach writing and humane letters, but my teaching on aesthetics grew into a curriculum I called Exercising Judgment: That Your Love May Abound, and I continued to develop and teach it over five years to 2008.
It was while I was working on Exercising Judgment that all of the things the Lord had taught me, about how to change the things that were in my heart, began to fall into place as parts of a coherent whole. That was when I started to see Jeremiah 17:5-10 as an integral passage, and not just a collection of individual verses haphazardly thrown together. That's when I started to understand how the deceitfulness of my heart, and its wickedness, had been played upon by Wierwille from the first time I sat through Power For Abundant Living, and it was when I began to realize how much more powerful the fear of God is than Wierwille had let on.
So... now I hope you understand that I'm not just coming up with this suff from out of the blue. There are deep, biblical reasons why I believe that the fear of God does NOT mean the kind of respect we give to an elderly uncle we are no longer expected to obey. I'm going to go into these things in much more detail, but I hope this sufficiently orients my readers to follow at least part of what I say until they get more used to my lingo.
Love,
Steve
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Mark Sanguinetti
Steve, the fundamental problem with both TWI and CES was pride and arrogance. They thought their doctrinal views were better than everyone elses by a wide margin. I warned CES about this in 2000 and this site still has a letter on it that I sent to the 3 CES leaders. Did you see this problem when you were with CES? Do you understand this? I even worked with someone from your state on trying to correct this fundamental CES problem. They did not take what I explained to them seriously so they ended up a few years later with an expensive legal cat fight which was a waste of time and money. And now that I think about it that might be why they have changed their church/ministry name.
How can anyone learn anything new if they think they already know everything? How can they correct any doctrinal errors if they think everything they believe and teach is true?
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WordWolf
quote name='Steve Lortz' date='01 January 2012 - 03:36 AM' timestamp='1325406963' post='536257'
(snip)
WordWolf, you speculate as to what my be the cause of my apparent obsession with the fear of God.
(snip)
/quote
I'm not SPECULATING anything- neither "the cause of" your "apparent obsession with the fear of God" or anything else.
I said:
"What I think is a problem is that Steve's understanding of the concepts of "fear" and "respect"
of God were so horribly abused and raped by vpw for vpw's purposes (furthering and facilitating
practices of his lusts) that Steve has spent years trying to come out from under that abuse
and put both into a healthy perspective in spite of long-term exposure to a degraded perv who
deserved to be put in prison for even HALF of what he did. I like Steve and I applaud his
efforts, but I think he's having difficulties seeing this discussion without seeing vpw's
perversion at the same time- which is understandable. I empathize and will pray for him, and
offer any assistance I can give on that."
Whatever else is on your mind on the subject, it's plaimly obvious to me that your posts keep circling back to refute a claim NOBODY here made and in fact, keep refuting-
the dysfunctional teaching of a pervert who taught in a perverse fashion to serve HIMSELF.
quote name='Steve Lortz' date='15 December 2011 - 10:16 PM' timestamp='1324005384' post='535792'
(snip)
Wierwille didn't like the pain of the fear of the LORD, and he didn't want to repent (arrogance), so he did his best to drown out the pain with Drambuie, and with the endorphins released through sex (he bacame a sex addict).
(snip)
/quote
quote name='Steve Lortz' date='17 December 2011 - 09:24 AM' timestamp='1324131892' post='535848'
(snip)
The trust/fear of Wierwille certainly brought a snare!
Love,
Steve
/quote
quote name='Steve Lortz' date='17 December 2011 - 09:45 PM' timestamp='1324176354' post='535862'
(snip)
Wierwille taught that Romans 11:20b, "Be not high-minded but fear..." could not be addressed to Christians, and spun a whole segment of PFAL baloney, lying about who Romans 11:20b was addressed to.
When he couldn't use that same excuse to disregard the fact that the word "fear" is addressed to Christians, such as Philippians 2:12b, "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," he taught that it doesn't mean fear, it just means respect. Well, it does carry a sense of respect, but the fear part of it is stronger than the respect part, and is emphasized by the "and trembling [tromos = trembling, shaking, shivering with fear]."
I believe that ALL the corruption, ALL the devastation, ALL the ruination, ALL the evil of TWI can be linked to the truth that Wierwille did not FEAR God, and he taught us that we shouldn't either... but that's a story for another day!
Love,
Steve
The word of that depraved pervert keeps coming up over and over, re-introduced by you even though I keep trying to get us to agree
that he was WRONG and move on completely without him or anything he ever said.
I don't know ALL of what goes through your mind on this subject, but your POSTS seem to circle around a subject you
can't see past- which suggests to me this is where your thinking is on this subject.
(Otherwise you're putting on a performance for us-and I think your posts are 100% genuine and from the heart
(and so for the rest of us so far on this thread.)
(Some quote tags are broken because I couldn't get the reply to post with so many uses. So I left the data intact
and removed the brackets.}
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WordWolf
I've really been trying to keep this thread free of wierwille's perverted errors... When he came up, I wanted him refuted,
and then I wanted us to move on.
Here's some of my postings...
"Inadvertently,
you keep presenting me with a False Dilemma between 2 choices,
both of which I consider error:
A) be afraid of God and serve and obey Him because the Almighty Smiter may Smite me
B) be like vpw, sin like crazy, refuse to repent, and just run around with no self-control
I reject the first position because I am FAR more loyal to a Loving Father whom I wish
to please to make Him happy than I would be a Mighty Boss or God-Father I MUST please...
or else.....
I reject the second position because vpw lied completely when he claimed to respect
God at all, revere or even care about Him. I'm under no restriction to lie in any
way about respect, reverence, or AWE about God."
"Concerning our attitude towards God, I think we all agree on PART of this.
"The proper position to hold concerning God Almighty is on one's knees, in awe of His Magnificence,
humble before Him and respectful to the utmost."
"vpw's serious plans to sin, where he purposed in his heart to give his life over to sin,
affected his doctrine and his practice, and poisoned his attitude towards God.
He claimed we were supposed to respect God, but in practice he gave God's Will for vpw all
the attention a dog gives a fire hydrant."
"When we sin, we should feel bad, and come to God Almighty, humble and sorry we sinned."
"God has made us beloved children, which doesn't change any of the above- as a child of such
an awesome God, we should approach Him on our knees."
"Before I go any further into this discussion, I want to know a bit more about
our common ground, what we already agree on.
Can we agree that vpw had neither RESPECT, REGARD nor AWE of God, and used
the TRAPPINGS while not actually CARING, meaning his talk of caring about
God was all talk, simply a SCRIPT to enact, a false face to wear, a mask?
Can we agree that if vpw had actually respected God, he would have cared
about doing things God said to do and avoiding things God said to avoid,
and would have at least been making an effort to do so rather than inventing
lies to claim God approved of every lust of his flesh and eyes and his pride
of life? "
"I think that, in part, we are agreeing on some important things.
(snip)
B) vpw was a depraved pervert who deceived people and abused God's people and God's Word
to promote the lusts of his flesh, the lusts of his eyes, and his pride of life.
In doing so, he taught perversions of many things of God (sometimes passing along some
non-perversions and good teachings from others) that affect people until they are healed
or recovered from his abuse."
I've wanted us all to agree he and his definitions were perverted and error,
so we could agree they were useless and move
on WITHOUT him- but one poster keeps bringing
him back into the discussion.
Really-if I was doing that, wouldn't you see
a pattern, and draw a conclusion by now?
========================
(I'll respond to Naten when I have more time.)
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Steve Lortz
BINGO!
Proverbs 8:13
"13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate."
The inclination to pride and arrogancy is in people's hearts. That inclination is in EVERY person's heart. It is the desperate wickedness of Jeremiah 17:9.
The "evil way", and the "froward mouth" are when the abundance of pride and arrogance in a person's heart flows out into expression.
The Bible does not leave us guessing about what the fear of the LORD is. Yes, there is a component of awe when regarding God, but there is also a reflexive component of wanting to be safe with God by cleaning up our decisions and actions to make them what He wants them to be.
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
Steve,
One last time..... as this is probably as frustrating for you as it is for me in continually trying to bring this conversation somewhere close to a Christ centered perspective. I give up. I gather WW is simply trying to keep it on topic without the looming specter of VP and trying to jettison our discussion from our common ground. I appreciate that as I moved well beyond VP's definition for anything and even while in TWI I knew JAL was a sadistic ego maniac. So, when discussing biblical concepts, tenets, or doctrine these men and groups have no influence in my perceptions. I seek a Christ centered theology as Christianity is a Christ centered faith. Our faith is centered around the person of Jesus Christ, His work, and everything in scripture points us to HIM. That includes not trusting our own hearts. Please consider that for a minute. However, that goes far beyond what we can discuss.
I get the impression from your last post and the caveat to "your readers" about your use of language that you have something to say and just want to be heard. I am not trying to discourage you, but I would like to encourage you to consider, yet again, how Jesus fits into you falling under a curse which is related specifically to Jeremiah's speaking of Israel's impending judgement.. And now I see it is all of us who were under this curse to some degree or another. What role does the cross of Christ play in your scenario? I do understand that you believe you are teaching something that stems from direct revelation from the Almighty. I sympathize with you.
I have to ask though......where exactly were you on the fear of God scale when you received this revelation? Were you fearing God perfectly? According to your sharing... the ONLY antidote to our deceitful hearts is the fear of the Lord.......so, if you didn't have that just where it should be when you heard from God.......how can you trust it was God and not your deceitful heart? You are working pretty hard at making this revelation fit into the word of God......and in the process you appear to be leaving out huge pieces of relevant theology. Christ is absolutely missing from what you are telling us, it is a word and works based understanding that leaves no room for Him.
Another thing I am curious about....and if it is too personal please forgive me......but, you mentioned that you were saved at age seven.....and from the dates you gave me I think you are now hovering around age 60? You cited age twenty as a time in your life when you again were seeking, so from 20-60 ....forty years you have been wandering? Just like Israel!
I am not going to ask you where the Lord was the whole time, but I would like to know where your faith was. That saving faith which binds us to the Lord?
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me
Instead of this elaborate theological puzzle in which you have been placed under a curse, an explanation which seems to satisfy you in answering the questions relating to the course of your life. And instead of the resulting solution which appears to be works which will now save you.......fear of the Lord will transform your heart....something you do for yourself.....and your perfect obedience will cast out fear. You know.....there is a far more simple explanation. You have yet to come to a saving faith.
Please, before your pride is pricked and ego bruised....remember they have no place before the Lord. There is no shame in examining if we are in the faith. Looking at what we believe and truly considering whom we have placed our faith in. You do have an answer for the why's to the course of your life, but does it glorify God? Does it consider the cross? Is it a Christ centered answer or is it a you centered answer? It is possible to ever learn and never come to a knowledge of the truth. Jesus Christ.
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WordWolf
Since this is an off-topic discussion, I made a new topic for it.
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socks
I John 4 has the composite statement on fearing God - this version states it thusly:
17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
19 We love because he first loved us.
I have a clearer vision and impression of life through Christ that in it's purest form removes the conflict of life, the dread of death and the fear of God's judgment.
I think we all know that this life can go in the toilet pretty quick. With Christ I have a view into God's perfect love and there I may be get goose bumps and chills at times but "fear" - no. Not in the sense that I do what I do because I know God can kick my asz at anytime. I already knew that. I know what that part might look like, at least to a degree. At that point I'm like a kid faced with an aggressive shark in the water. Same thing - I'm lunch, I know that. But I don't see God that way because He's "so loved the world" that He's "given His only Son", that I might be saved, brought to Him and made whole.
"Acceptance" is a word I use for it that reflects what I read in the inspired writings of the Bible.
I have feared many, many, many things in life over the years including God. Through Christ I don't fear God though. I just don't. The Shepherd and His sheep, the Way and those who follow. Etc. etc. Frankly I can't think of much I'm afraid of period. Food poisoning, some bad shell fish maybe. Funky plane flight. Bad news. Good things I'm not afraid of though and to me, God is good and goodness is swirling everywhere so there's plenty of good air to breathe where the fear is rare.
The immensity of the "respect" part of phobos, the fear of the Lord is much stronger however than a nod and a tip of the cap.
I really do believe, as many of you, that these things of God, Jesus Christ, God's passion for His creation and people, this life and the life to come - these are real things to me. When anyone enters into this arena to act on God's behalf - to teach, to advise, counsel, intervene, direct, pastor as with the Shepherd - we enter a very special place, "holy" and sacred. To "lead" or try to is not a casual effort. And anyone who gets mixed up in God's affairs in His name with ill intent, greed, to seek "one's own" they're going to end up s--t creek without a paddle. It always turns out badly.
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Naten00
Wow this has become a diverse topic...... I don't really know where to join in....
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socks
Indeed.
I would probably put gratitude, thankfulness in the list of things that dare I say replace fear, and the Bible appears to put a "thankful heart" high on the list of attitudes.
An overwhelming sense of gratitude and thankfulness comes as a result of being mindful of the life in Christ. Humility. Through recognition of one's place in the world, with God and how we got there. Are getting there.
I think, in general it's easy to understand as we come in contact with Christ and enter into that hmmm....paradigm (yechy word but it's a new year) that's put forth.
To add: WW made the statement:
Ok, the concept I was referring to is more often called LANGUAGE DRIFT. But you can see it happens all the time, as long as a language is spoken-a "living" language. A "dead" language doesn't change.
This is an important point. "Folksonomy" in information architecture is where classifications of data are shared, more collaborative and can move and shift. As I've encountered that concept in my work it's reminded me a lot of how theology shifts.
To a certain extent, the information in the Bible is a known quantity. Add what one wants take out what another wants, put it all back in plus any variables and you have a sum total of data. Textual criticism does fundamental winnowing. The language issue is more stable than a changing living language as WW notes, which makes that work more doable. Even allowing for differences and disagreements and gray areas, the actual content of what we would then generally call "the Bible" can be known and a baseline can be established.
So - what do we get when we have a workforce of oh, I dunno, say 5,000,000 (pick any big number) workers of all the required areas of expertise, who put in oh I dunno, say 10,000 hours each (pick any big number) over a period of years - decades, millenia (pick any long period).....?
I don't think it's the knowledge that's lacking - there's plenty of that raw data stuff, much that the average person with minimal instruction can access not even counting the millions of trained, educated and passionate geniuses working on it.
And the work goes on, and improves, right?
If Biblical Research were a NASA space mission it seems like we'd be building Wal-Marts on Alpha Centauri by now.
I'm not suggesting that the work is done or that the conclusions on everything are clear but I do think that the work is doable and based on the language itself is more knowable and understandable than some theology makes it.
We encountered that in the Way - where "apparent contradictions" weren't allowed to stand in some cases because they simply "couldn't" mean or say what they appear to....there must be a mistake on man's part somewhere (well, duh...) or something somewhere that if we can just dig it up and shine the light on it just right will SAY WHAT IT HAS TO SAY, "in the original".
Anyway, yes, the Bible talks a lot about fear, but frankly I don't think the lack of fear is the root cause of VPW's direction or what went on in the Way.
Some people don't fear, don't care, don't give a crap, for whatever reasons and never will. You can beat on them all day and they don't care.
Some do and will get away with whatever they can. Fear of punishment doesn't produce doing the right thing in all cases, it can also produce avoidance, denial and dishonesty too. Lots of fear - lots of b-s too in that scenario.
Just thinking out loud.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Eph 2:12-15
12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
NIV
And between who was that dividing wall of hostility that Jesus Christ has destroyed?
Answer: Between God and men, women, boys and girls and maybe even pet dogs and cats.
1 Tim 2:5
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
NIV
Without Jesus Christ there would be very little relationship between God and man if any. In this case I think we would be fearful. However, with Jesus Christ there is no fear in a negative sense. When Jesus was walking the earth was anyone afraid of him? Did he do anything to mankind to cause fear? He might have chewed a few arrogant people up and then spit them out in debates, but who did he harm? What sane person would be afraid of such a man?
Jesus did frighten some demons or devil spirits though. I recall in a gospel record a legion of them whinning about where they did not want to be caste out to. The strong man that got the demons caste out of by Jesus sure felt better after Jesus did his thing. The demons may have feared Jesus, but I don't think the possessed man did. He needed His help and may have known this. But then some crazy people came up to Jesus after He healed the man and the bible does use the word fear at least in the King James Version for their thinking then. What a bunch of nuts that instead of thanking Jesus and patting him on the back and saying good job Jesus. They wanted him to leave. The possessed man in contrast wanted then to go with Jesus where ever he went. He even begged Jesus to let me go with you. But Jesus said to go home to your friends.
Some very unusual scriptures. You can read about this in Mark 5:9-20.
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socks
Inneresting Mark.
Somewhere I have (or had) a study of the "qualities of the new heart" of a Christian. It's not new science by any means. It works from the premise in the Bible that we have "new life" and are "new creations" in Christ. That new life has a "heart", an essence which is Christ like and Godly that tends toward it's own nature and the Godly side of the road.
In that it seems the things we read about in the Bible describe those things. Thankfulness is one. Humility is another. "Love" is a biggie. Honesty is another. These words describe the qualities of the new creation we are in Christ.
These qualities of the new nature provide the platform for how one sees and knows God. The human nature struggled, our new nature doesn't. The old nature feared, the new one doesn't. The old nature reasons and assumes, the new nature knows. The old nature is at war, the new at peace.
I would say that the "me" in that knows and understands his place as I learn and live. "Fear" of the Lord, of God, all of that, figures into that in that I am capable of having a grasp on who and what God really is as opposed to the external profile I would have looking at it mostly through the human nature senses. That side of me knows fear. I don't see that the new creation does although with awareness would come - well, awareness. I can see a glimpse of that now and I would put the "fear of the Lord" in that as it can be overwhelming if I see it as a product of human effort and comprehension.
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geisha779
Really, really nice post.....I think the way we come to live that new nature is by the decisions we make. Just like in any relationship, love and commitment help us to make the right decisions and of course, we love Him because He first loved us. His love was displayed for us in what seems an almost paradoxical way, but it is love with justice met and unfathomable mercy extended. On the cross, we can see the serious meaning of sin by how the price was paid. I suppose Jesus could have died by machine gun....but, He didn't. That is not how God reached out to us.....it was crucifixion. Crucifixion was an agonizingly painful and humiliating way to die. For those interested in words.....it was excruciating. Sin truly separates us from God.
Jesus never sinned. Yet, Jesus, a perfect and blameless sacrifice took on the sins of the world and paid the price for sin.....once and for all. God's final word on the matter and the way He made for us to reconciled to Him. Justice was met while amazing love was being extended through suffering. The cross is beautiful in its revelation of grace, mercy and love. It is paradoxical that such suffering could reveal God's love and power. It is paradoxical that evil was met with good. The fear of God is in the recognition of God... I think we all agreed on that. How we recognize God is where some of us differed.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18
Once we come to the cross and see the commitment and love of Jesus and truly accept the way He made......it is the beginning of a relationship. A part of the reason I strongly reject the notion that we can truly come up against the cross and accept the way made for us and then just wander off for most of our life, is that commitment and love relationship that begins at the cross. The transformation which begins in the realization of God's power, mercy and love and His great commitment to us.... is a new heart. It is His work....all of it. It is all grace and mercy. God is absolutely faithful even when we are not and He is absolutely able to keep us and create in us a new heart.
The sacrifice is enough. We don't need to be blinded after coming to the cross...... it opens our eyes to God's love and power. We certainly don't need to be blinded and fall under judgement. The point is.....the price is paid and God's justice is satisfied. Everything we need is already done for us. It is about faith and trust. Do we really see what was accomplished, do we really understand what was done? Do we accept it and confess and commit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ?
Our confidence before God can't rely on our abilities, but faith in Jesus. That is not say there isn't going to be challenges. We are to take up our own cross and follow Him. One of the ways we know we are in relationship with Him is obedience, but that obedience is borne out of love. It can be difficult and sometimes painful to follow the Lord. Not only is there persecution, although not really so much here, but our two natures war with each other. We are often in battle with self. Jesus didn't say it would be easy.
Grace, is extended for those times when we are in a struggle and we really can ask God for the grace we need to get through them. He understands what it means to be tempted, He is not without compassion, and He is not without mercy. He does test and challenge our faith. I have been confronted with a faith that was lacking more than once but, each time I am faced with that I am extended forgiveness and grace to grow in faith. Amazing God.
One of the icky realizations I had to come to while examining my time in TWI was that I had never fully come to the cross and understood it at all. I was too busy yakking about machine guns and flaunting my Holy Spirit dove. There is nothing wrong with the Holy Spirit dove unless it is replacing the cross. For me it did. Many of us argued over words and the meaning of words and focused on the little things while missing the bigger things.
The scriptures tell us that false teachers prey on people burdened by sin....unstable souls.....they catch people who are searching or new in their faith. They usually target younger people and those with no church to watch out for them. For me, it was most of the above. Thankfully it is not irreversible and God is still reaching out with love and forgiveness through the cross of Christ and His resurrection from the dead. It does matter how He died, why He suffered, and who He is. It is good to go back to the very basics and really look at what we believe. Jesus is enough, God's sacrifice is enough, and God is faithful even when we are not....He won't let us wander too far. :)
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Steve Lortz
According to Protestant tradition, there are 5 "solas":
Scripture alone,
Faith alone,
Grace alone,
Christ alone and
Glory to God alone.
Whether Protestant traditions have any more validity than Roman Catholic traditions is open to question, since both traditions go back to Augustine's Neo-platonic misinterpretations of the New Testament writers' Stoic terminology. There's a good study in "linguistic drift" for anybody who needs a topic for a master's thesis!
At any rate, even Protestants are willing to sacrifice "scriptura sola" when it can be demonstatrated that the Bible contradicts some of their other pet theologies.
For instance, according to II Timothy 3:16&17, ALL Scripture (which includes Jeremiah and Ezekiel) is useful for teaching, for reproving, for correcting and for instructing in righteousness. If Christ is the primary subject of the Bible from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21, then how can people say that they don't see Christ in Jeremiah and Ezekiel, unless they are admitting that they have an imperfect understanding of the Bible. Which is something I freely admit to. If I believe that I already know everything there is to know, I will never be able to grow in my understanding.
And by the way, the purpose of teaching, reproving, correcting and instructing in righteousness is so that a person can be completely outfitted to do good WORKS! "WORKS" God says! HUH!?! Would God say "WORKS"?
So, let's look at Ezekiel 11:17,19-20, 36:24,26 and 18:31 to see what teaching, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness we can extract from them, so that we will be better equipped to do good works.
Ezekiel 11:17,19-20
"17 Therefore say, Thus saith the LORD God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
...
"19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them an heart of flesh:
"20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God."
First, the context of receiving a new heart is the gathering together, when we shall receive our resurrection spirits in the age to come, at Christ's appearing.
Second, the purpose of the new heart will be that we can DO (WORKS) the will of God.
Third, the Holy Spirit that was first poured out on the Day of Pentecost is not the spirit of resurrection life in the age to come, it is the earnest of that inheritance.
Ezekiel 36:24,26
"24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.
...
"26 A new heart also I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
Again, the context of a God-given new heart is the resurrection at the gathering together.
What are we supposed to do until Jesus appears, the dead in Christ are raised, and we who remain are changed?
Ezekiel 18:31
"31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"
MAKE you a new heart and a new spirit! Until Jesus appears, we are to work on fixing up as much of our hears as we can. We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. We are to perfect holiness in the fear of God.
If you think there's something wrong with that, then you need to take it up with Paul, the writer of Romans, not with me.
Love,
Steve
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WordWolf
A) I snipped most of the post because nobody was disagreeing with it and I didn't see its direct relevance
to the topic. (All Scripture is INdirectly related, but this topic would need thousands of pages if we
were going to follow all the indirect discussions no matter how tangential.) If there was a direct
relevance, I didn't see the connection.
B) How about we get a verse reference for the one thing that directly related to the thread,
your quote about "fear and trembling"?
Philippians 2:12 KJV
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
How about other versions on the same verse?
Philippians 2:12 NASB
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:12 CEV
12My dear friends, you always obeyed when I was with you. Now that I am away, you should obey even more. So work with fear and trembling to discover what it really means to be saved.
What's the context of the verse? Approach the things of God with HUMILITY and grave respect.
Philippians 2:1-18 (NASB)
1 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, 2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all. 18 You too, I urge you, rejoice in the same way and share your joy with me.
The context of the phrase is HUMILITY, approaching God with an attitude akin to being on your knees before Him.
We've been saying that all along. I don't even get what this added to the discussion,
except a sort of "I didn't write the book!" comment after presuming the verses suggested we were
supposed to be all "AAAAAHHH!" about God. Honestly, Steve, if I thought that was all you could bring
to the table, I'd just ignore it, but I know you have so much more to offer. You're trying to communicate
something important on your heart, and I think there's a disconnect between your mind and my mind
somewhere, whether at the keyboard or wherever.
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