Interesting thread. I personally SIT prior to TWI so after leaving it still has a place in prayer life. However, I think the real damage is in how TWI treats SIT like "magic", or like "The Secret", a fantasy cure-all for all maladies. They sell snake oil, so this is the perfect intangible snake oil. To me the important part of real SIT is just that you're praying, and talking to God in some fashion, fostering a real relationship.
OldSkool, your story to me illustrates this. What greater illustration that there ARE NO signs, miracles and wonders going on at the top level of TWI. A top leader (middle level leaders don't teach Corps teachings) uses as a teaching example his lack of power not only to help someone who came to him (other than company at the hospital), but also his lack of ability to follow up and help the person who came to him ongoing.
Also, to me, for TWI to send a person like that packing and tell them to go "where they can get help" is indicative of not only their lack of real Christian power, but also their lack of willingness to take care of their own. Shoot, corporations treat people better than that - with leave of absences from a position, medical benefits that include therapy and counseling options paid for, office teams visiting and doing cards, etc. When a for-profit big business entity can show more Christian love than a ministry supposed to be standing for God, well, that just shows you what's really true and what's not.
I mean, from the woman's perspective - to hear someone say "go where you can get help" - I'm sure in her mind she was thinking "I did - that's why I came here on staff - to the HQ of the Christian ministry I joined". If you can't get help at HQ, to me that illustrates how anti-Christian HQ is. Jesus in the gospels healed everyone who came to him. Except for the Pharisees - they were too hard-hearted. And the Pharisees at TWI's HQ are no different.
She is not the only one I know who had serious problems and was told to look elsewhere, just the only one in this context.
Oh, absolutely. I've seen enough of this to know this is the rule, not the exception to the rule. And this attitude and lack of power spills out all over the organization. Leaders on the field have this mentality as well. Blame the victim. Ostracize the victim. Someone's not doing well? Oh it must be their fault - some secret sin.
To align this with Biblical examples, we have Job and the miserable comforters. Blame the sick instead of healing and helping the sick.
Here's another great example I found - Elisha and the Shunamite woman. Contrast this Biblical story to how TWI treats people in debt:
Like chockfull, I spoke in tongues prior to TWI (as a child, probably 6 or 7 years old.) it happened spontaneously, without instruction. I didn't even know it was SIT until much later. It was just something I did that made me feel better when I was sad. A lot of it was in song. .I still SIT today. Mainly I use it as a meditation tool, a way to clear my mind of clutter and internal noise. The way TWI taught it doesn't really apply for me anymore. It isn't a cure all. I don't even "interpret" anymore.
I recently converted to Catholicism, and spoke privately with the priest about SIT. He said there was no need to stop using it in my prayer life, that the church didn't have a problem with it at all. But I shouldn't jump up in church with it, or listen to anyone who said they could interpret it for me.(I wouldn't have stopped doing it even if he had told me too. My time in TWI taught me that I don't need to confirm with every stupid tenent of a religion if I don't agree with it.)
I won't say a whole lot, beyond I do believe there is a lot of power in SIT, but as I remember I Cor 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men or of angels and have not love I am as a sound brass or a tinkling cymbal." I had a friend put it this way. SITing without love is like pumping with an unprimed pump, it doesn't really do anything. There were a lot of unprimed pumps around.
I won't say a whole lot, beyond I do believe there is a lot of power in SIT.
W/O delving into a doctrinal discussion, I believe what the Bible says regarding SIT. I do not believe that it is some form of self directed power used for all circumstances, though one could SIT in all circumstances just as one could pray in all circumstances. Even Biblically, 1 Corinthians 12 teaches that each manifestation has it's own purposes. That's all I will say and will not go further off topic.
W/O delving into a doctrinal discussion, I believe what the Bible says regarding SIT. I do not believe that it is some form of self directed power used for all circumstances, though one could SIT in all circumstances just as one could pray in all circumstances. Even Biblically, 1 Corinthians 12 teaches that each manifestation has it's own purposes. That's all I will say and will not go further off topic.
I don't want to get off on a doctrinal discussion. But I will say that I agree with this statment. TWI did try to apply SIT differntly and in situation that didn't warrent it. What I really want to point out is that SITing often wasn't done in love and that makes it basicly unprofitable. So it's not much wonder we didn't see growth in ourselves or others.
What I really want to point out is that SITing often wasn't done in love and that makes it basicly unprofitable. So it's not much wonder we didn't see growth in ourselves or others.
Maybe....but, I'm sure there are plenty of people who would tell you they did it "in love" and still saw no results.
I don't think most of us really knew what love was while we were in TWI.
I'm sure you probably don't mean it this way, but, that really sounds like another version of "shifting the blame".
Didn't get results?....Must not have been believing....didn't have your needs and wants parallel....didn't have a clear enough picture....must not have been available....etc.
Who knows what "love" means, anyhow? In my early days in TWI, I would say I saw lots of people acting out of what most of us would call "love".
Maybe we didn't get results because what we were taught was "speaking in tongues" was really glossolalia.
I certainly isn't meant that way. But if you think about how TWI taught about love, it was really pretty selfish and they wanted most of it directed at them. However, I didn't write the first verse of I Cor 13. If I don't see growth in my life, that's one of the first places I check. There are many times when I would have said I was walking in love in my life, but I really wasn't. And with how I was taught to show love in TWI, I definitly wasn't. I can't make a judgement in another life that this is the problem; however if someone askes me why they aren't getting results in their lives that's usally the first area's I ask them to examine themselves regarding. Love is an area I still totally walk in. Some times the area of love we have the biggest problem with is "loving ourselves." (this is beginning to get doctornal) In TWI we were often so condemned, that we were often ready to condemn ourselves and others, rather than loving ourselves and each other for who were were.
I first spoke in tongues in a bathroom stall in the building where the class was being held, during one of the breaks. I could see what was coming, and I wanted to make sure I could do it. My wife has spoken in tongues since she was a child, even though she was raised in a family whose denominational background didn't recognize tongues. They called it her "made up language" and thought she was just playing. My brother reluctantly took the class, but he had been speaking in tongues for quite a while when he finally did. He first spoke in tongues when he was by himself, praying for a friend who was having some particularly difficult times. I know a lot of people, some with no direct influence from TWI, who speak in tongues.
Seven years after leaving TWI I wrote a partial inventory of things I believed just to sort out all the stuff I had learned in TWI and all the new things I had learned after leaving TWI.
After careful study (NOT TWI's "re-search"), it struck me that the only thing the Bible says that SIT "does" is offer perfect thanksgiving to God, in spite of our limited understanding. It's the one thing that there is no selfish "benefit" to doing. It is no miracle-grow that will make your baby spirit fat and strong. It is no lever for squeezing what you want out of God. If, in a particular situation, the Spirit tells you to speak in tongues, then by all means speak in tongues. If you aren't "inspired" to SIT, then only do it when you want to express the gratitude in you heart to God.
I've been to services in Pentecostal churches where the SIT seemed to be done decently and in order. I've been to Pentecostal services that seemed like zoos. There are times in non-Pentecostal services when I speak in tongues unobtrusively, under my breath. God still hears me.
The dog wants to go out. I'm going to go out and sit on the porch with her. I'm going to work some sudoku puzzles, and while I do, I might speak in tongues if I feel like it.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Though I do also believe there is evidence it is perfect prayer and praise, it is at the spirits direction, not ours. SIT was given credit for being able to do things it didn't do. Even if we accept that SIT builds up the spirit of the inner man, it doesn't say it really does anything for the outer man. That's why without love it is unprofitable. SIT was never a Swiss army knife, it has definite uses. And from what I can tell, unlike we were taught in TWI, it can be and is counterfited.
If speaking in tongues builds up the inner man (spirit), what purpose does it serve for the non-Christian cultures that have practised it since before the time of Christ?
If speaking in tongues builds up the inner man (spirit), what purpose does it serve for the non-Christian cultures that have practised it since before the time of Christ?
Really? I thought this was justa 'Christian phenomenon'. I really need to get out more!
Really? I thought this was justa 'Christian phenomenon'. I really need to get out more!
Non-Christian practice
Other religious groups been observed to practice some form of theopneustic glossolalia. It is perhaps most commonly in Paganism, Shamanism, and other mediumistic religious practices.[57] In Japan, the God Light Association used to practice glossolalia to cause adherents to recall past lives.[58]
Glossolalia has even been postulated as an explanation for the Voynich manuscript.[59]
Certain Gnostic magical texts from the Roman period have written on them unintelligible syllables such as "t t t t n n n n d d d d d..." etc. It is conjectured that these may be transliterations of the sorts of sounds made during glossolalia. The Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians also features a hymn of (mostly) unintelligible syllables which is thought to be an early example of Christian glossolalia.[citation needed]
In the 19th century, Spiritism was developed by the work of Allan Kardec, and the phenomenon was seen as one of the self-evident manifestations of spirits. Spiritists argued that some cases were actually cases of xenoglossia.
Glossolalia has also been observed in the Voodoo religion of Haiti,[60] as well as in the Hindu Gurus and Fakirs of India.[61][62]"
Recommended Posts
chockfull
Interesting thread. I personally SIT prior to TWI so after leaving it still has a place in prayer life. However, I think the real damage is in how TWI treats SIT like "magic", or like "The Secret", a fantasy cure-all for all maladies. They sell snake oil, so this is the perfect intangible snake oil. To me the important part of real SIT is just that you're praying, and talking to God in some fashion, fostering a real relationship.
OldSkool, your story to me illustrates this. What greater illustration that there ARE NO signs, miracles and wonders going on at the top level of TWI. A top leader (middle level leaders don't teach Corps teachings) uses as a teaching example his lack of power not only to help someone who came to him (other than company at the hospital), but also his lack of ability to follow up and help the person who came to him ongoing.
Also, to me, for TWI to send a person like that packing and tell them to go "where they can get help" is indicative of not only their lack of real Christian power, but also their lack of willingness to take care of their own. Shoot, corporations treat people better than that - with leave of absences from a position, medical benefits that include therapy and counseling options paid for, office teams visiting and doing cards, etc. When a for-profit big business entity can show more Christian love than a ministry supposed to be standing for God, well, that just shows you what's really true and what's not.
I mean, from the woman's perspective - to hear someone say "go where you can get help" - I'm sure in her mind she was thinking "I did - that's why I came here on staff - to the HQ of the Christian ministry I joined". If you can't get help at HQ, to me that illustrates how anti-Christian HQ is. Jesus in the gospels healed everyone who came to him. Except for the Pharisees - they were too hard-hearted. And the Pharisees at TWI's HQ are no different.
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
She is not the only one I know who had serious problems and was told to look elsewhere, just the only one in this context.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Oh, absolutely. I've seen enough of this to know this is the rule, not the exception to the rule. And this attitude and lack of power spills out all over the organization. Leaders on the field have this mentality as well. Blame the victim. Ostracize the victim. Someone's not doing well? Oh it must be their fault - some secret sin.
To align this with Biblical examples, we have Job and the miserable comforters. Blame the sick instead of healing and helping the sick.
Here's another great example I found - Elisha and the Shunamite woman. Contrast this Biblical story to how TWI treats people in debt:
http://www.jba.gr/Articles/nkjv_jbajuly97.htm
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JavaJane
Like chockfull, I spoke in tongues prior to TWI (as a child, probably 6 or 7 years old.) it happened spontaneously, without instruction. I didn't even know it was SIT until much later. It was just something I did that made me feel better when I was sad. A lot of it was in song. .I still SIT today. Mainly I use it as a meditation tool, a way to clear my mind of clutter and internal noise. The way TWI taught it doesn't really apply for me anymore. It isn't a cure all. I don't even "interpret" anymore.
I recently converted to Catholicism, and spoke privately with the priest about SIT. He said there was no need to stop using it in my prayer life, that the church didn't have a problem with it at all. But I shouldn't jump up in church with it, or listen to anyone who said they could interpret it for me.(I wouldn't have stopped doing it even if he had told me too. My time in TWI taught me that I don't need to confirm with every stupid tenent of a religion if I don't agree with it.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Yes, Elisha and the Shunamite woman versus the Shumate women.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JavaJane
LOL!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Ya, and the teacher of the corps meeting was a Reverend and on the president's cabinet.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I must be a prophet....I foresee a contentious discussion coming on.....LOL!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Keith
I won't say a whole lot, beyond I do believe there is a lot of power in SIT, but as I remember I Cor 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men or of angels and have not love I am as a sound brass or a tinkling cymbal." I had a friend put it this way. SITing without love is like pumping with an unprimed pump, it doesn't really do anything. There were a lot of unprimed pumps around.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
W/O delving into a doctrinal discussion, I believe what the Bible says regarding SIT. I do not believe that it is some form of self directed power used for all circumstances, though one could SIT in all circumstances just as one could pray in all circumstances. Even Biblically, 1 Corinthians 12 teaches that each manifestation has it's own purposes. That's all I will say and will not go further off topic.
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Is that a Bullinger's Figure of Speech? Words that sound similar but mean 100% the opposite?
:)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
f the f'ing monkey f'ers
:)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Keith
I don't want to get off on a doctrinal discussion. But I will say that I agree with this statment. TWI did try to apply SIT differntly and in situation that didn't warrent it. What I really want to point out is that SITing often wasn't done in love and that makes it basicly unprofitable. So it's not much wonder we didn't see growth in ourselves or others.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Great point.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Maybe....but, I'm sure there are plenty of people who would tell you they did it "in love" and still saw no results.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
Keith
I don't think most of us really knew what love was while we were in TWI.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I'm sure you probably don't mean it this way, but, that really sounds like another version of "shifting the blame".
Didn't get results?....Must not have been believing....didn't have your needs and wants parallel....didn't have a clear enough picture....must not have been available....etc.
Who knows what "love" means, anyhow? In my early days in TWI, I would say I saw lots of people acting out of what most of us would call "love".
Maybe we didn't get results because what we were taught was "speaking in tongues" was really glossolalia.
Food for thought.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Keith
I certainly isn't meant that way. But if you think about how TWI taught about love, it was really pretty selfish and they wanted most of it directed at them. However, I didn't write the first verse of I Cor 13. If I don't see growth in my life, that's one of the first places I check. There are many times when I would have said I was walking in love in my life, but I really wasn't. And with how I was taught to show love in TWI, I definitly wasn't. I can't make a judgement in another life that this is the problem; however if someone askes me why they aren't getting results in their lives that's usally the first area's I ask them to examine themselves regarding. Love is an area I still totally walk in. Some times the area of love we have the biggest problem with is "loving ourselves." (this is beginning to get doctornal) In TWI we were often so condemned, that we were often ready to condemn ourselves and others, rather than loving ourselves and each other for who were were.
Edited by KeithLink to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
I first spoke in tongues in a bathroom stall in the building where the class was being held, during one of the breaks. I could see what was coming, and I wanted to make sure I could do it. My wife has spoken in tongues since she was a child, even though she was raised in a family whose denominational background didn't recognize tongues. They called it her "made up language" and thought she was just playing. My brother reluctantly took the class, but he had been speaking in tongues for quite a while when he finally did. He first spoke in tongues when he was by himself, praying for a friend who was having some particularly difficult times. I know a lot of people, some with no direct influence from TWI, who speak in tongues.
Seven years after leaving TWI I wrote a partial inventory of things I believed just to sort out all the stuff I had learned in TWI and all the new things I had learned after leaving TWI.
After careful study (NOT TWI's "re-search"), it struck me that the only thing the Bible says that SIT "does" is offer perfect thanksgiving to God, in spite of our limited understanding. It's the one thing that there is no selfish "benefit" to doing. It is no miracle-grow that will make your baby spirit fat and strong. It is no lever for squeezing what you want out of God. If, in a particular situation, the Spirit tells you to speak in tongues, then by all means speak in tongues. If you aren't "inspired" to SIT, then only do it when you want to express the gratitude in you heart to God.
I've been to services in Pentecostal churches where the SIT seemed to be done decently and in order. I've been to Pentecostal services that seemed like zoos. There are times in non-Pentecostal services when I speak in tongues unobtrusively, under my breath. God still hears me.
The dog wants to go out. I'm going to go out and sit on the porch with her. I'm going to work some sudoku puzzles, and while I do, I might speak in tongues if I feel like it.
Have fun!
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Keith
I think you hit the nail on the head. Though I do also believe there is evidence it is perfect prayer and praise, it is at the spirits direction, not ours. SIT was given credit for being able to do things it didn't do. Even if we accept that SIT builds up the spirit of the inner man, it doesn't say it really does anything for the outer man. That's why without love it is unprofitable. SIT was never a Swiss army knife, it has definite uses. And from what I can tell, unlike we were taught in TWI, it can be and is counterfited.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
If speaking in tongues builds up the inner man (spirit), what purpose does it serve for the non-Christian cultures that have practised it since before the time of Christ?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rejoice
Really? I thought this was justa 'Christian phenomenon'. I really need to get out more!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Non-Christian practice
Other religious groups been observed to practice some form of theopneustic glossolalia. It is perhaps most commonly in Paganism, Shamanism, and other mediumistic religious practices.[57] In Japan, the God Light Association used to practice glossolalia to cause adherents to recall past lives.[58]
Glossolalia has even been postulated as an explanation for the Voynich manuscript.[59]
Certain Gnostic magical texts from the Roman period have written on them unintelligible syllables such as "t t t t n n n n d d d d d..." etc. It is conjectured that these may be transliterations of the sorts of sounds made during glossolalia. The Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians also features a hymn of (mostly) unintelligible syllables which is thought to be an early example of Christian glossolalia.[citation needed]
In the 19th century, Spiritism was developed by the work of Allan Kardec, and the phenomenon was seen as one of the self-evident manifestations of spirits. Spiritists argued that some cases were actually cases of xenoglossia.
Glossolalia has also been observed in the Voodoo religion of Haiti,[60] as well as in the Hindu Gurus and Fakirs of India.[61][62]"
SOURCE
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.