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When did "speak" and "believe" become TWO entities?


skyrider
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It seems to me.....at first, we were taught God's Word IS God's Will.

The Word of God is as much God, as God is God.

Same deal with man.....you are what you speak.

Your words yield your confession of belief.

Yet, later on......wierwille moved his doctrine to what he spoke WE NEEDED TO BELIEVE.

In other words, it would only come to pass IF we believed it....???

Wierwille could speak something.....yet, WE had to believe it???

Isn't that a blatant perversion of the gospel?

In Deuteronomy 18.....what the prophet spoke CAME TO PASS.

Speaking it forth was NOT dissected into a two-part sequence.

When the true prophet spoke.....it came to pass.

To put the "believing" responsibility ON THE PEOPLE was a veepee doctrine.

This smacks of a FALSE doctrine.

....the camp Gunnison restaurant never happened because we didn't believe it?

....the word didn't move over the world in the 1980s because of us?

....the campuses had to be sold because corps quit on the man of God?

Ummmm, what about putting THE RESPONSIBILITY back on a drunken, chain-smoking, plagiarist sexual predator? How about THAT? You know, taking the scriptures at face value like in the Book of Proverbs. One is a drunk. One is diligent. Which comes out on top? Back-n-forth the Proverbs go.......do this, don't do that! Yet, wierwille did THAT.....the wrong stuff, the slothful stuff, the stealing-plagiarist stuff, the drunken stuff.

And, wierwille was brazen enough to point his accusing finger at us.

And, taught wrong doctrine to cover his failures and slothfulness.

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seriously! when i screw up which is a lot i'm at least willing to blame myself

At times, it didn't even have to be a screw up.....but rather, just wanting a different outcome.

Why were the people responsible *for the believing* and NOT the "man of god for our day and time?"

THE RAIN DURING CORPS WEEK.

With wierwille and martindale on stage......the hypocrisy of it all to blame the corps for not believing

to stop the rain. Why couldn't just wierwille believe to stop it? Or, at least.....the both of THEM?

They were the bigshots.....the super-jocks in this spiritual athletic thingy.

If wierwille believed it was God's will for the rain to stop....

And, since wierwille proclaimed that this "law of believing" worked with a mathematical exactness

and a scientific precision (blah, blah, blah)....

Then, he should have been able to believe to stop the rain, right?

The corps were blamed to distract them from connecting the dots!!!

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That's why I think the "I'm still here." quote is so funny.

Wierwille stepped up to the microphone on the main stage at Rock Of Ages and announced, "I'm still here."

Uh Huh....and so was the frickin' rain. :biglaugh:

Edited by waysider
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vpw was very experienced with "do as I say and not as I do",

and a complete stranger at LEADING BY EXAMPLE.

When it came to instructing, vpw took the easy way, the

"I'll tell you what you should do", rather than the more instructive

"I'll show you what you should do."

Hypocrites in general are very good at the former, and very poor

at the latter.

"Quit smoking and give the money to twi", vpw told some of the corps,

while continuing to support a smoking addiction.

etc, etc.

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That's why I think the "I'm still here." quote is so funny.

Wierwille stepped up to the microphone on the main stage at Rock Of Ages and announced, "I'm still here."

Uh Huh....and so was the frickin' rain. :biglaugh:/>

Yeah......and one corps week (1983 or so?) the rain kept pooling ON TOP of a section of the main tent

and rather than deal with the situation and announce for every corps person near THAT SECTION TO MOVE

the speaker up front [lcm or walter, ??] kept right on teaching.

The danger factor got intense.....a couple of guys got up on top of the tent and slit a hole in the tent

to let the water out. The bigshots were numb-brained a-holes. Several corps below could have been badly

hurt by this negligence.

And, yeah.......wierwille's "law of believing" ppfffffffffftttttttttttt :anim-smile:

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he should have been struck my lightning

Maybe he was.

Yeah......and one corps week (1983 or so?) the rain kept pooling ON TOP of a section of the main tent

and rather than deal with the situation and announce for every corps person near THAT SECTION TO MOVE

the speaker up front [lcm or walter, ??] kept right on teaching.

The danger factor got intense.....a couple of guys got up on top of the tent and slit a hole in the tent

to let the water out. The bigshots were numb-brained a-holes. Several corps below could have been badly

hurt by this negligence.

And, yeah.......wierwille's "law of believing" ppfffffffffftttttttttttt :anim-smile:/>

It was Don Wierwille speaking during an ordination, of all things!

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I don't think wierwille ever claimed to be a prophet ? But yeah, I think a lot of the stuff mentioned was because their mindset was to never open up with or confess any negatives, which of course became hysterically fanatical...and just not feasible, at least in an honest way.

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I don't think wierwille ever claimed to be a prophet ?

AFAIK, TECHNICALLY,

that is correct. I am not aware of vpw using the words "I am a prophet".

However, he worked very hard to INSINUATE it. In fact, if you go over all the

definitions he used/made up of the "gift ministries", he phrased them so as to

make them applicable to himself.

-teacher

He called himself "THE TEACHER" long before any of us ever heard of him, and

continued that until his death.

-evangelist

He said an evangelist didn't go out and win souls. He said an evangelist inspired

the flock and got them excited so that THEY would go out and win souls.

How CONVENIENT.

-pastor

All his talk of "my people" convinced others that he cared like a shepherd cares

for his flock, rather than how the farmer cares for the Thanksgiving turkey.

-apostle

The word means "sent one." He claimed it was "someone who brings 'new light' to his

generation. It may be old light, but to his generation, it's 'new light.' "

-prophet

"One who speaks for God." vpw expected his every utterance to be treated like it

came directly from God Almighty. He certainly expected to be treated as if he

spoke for God.

So, he claimed ONE of those titles openly- and that as the definitive one,

THE Teacher, not A Teacher.

Me, I think vpw wanted to call himself all 5, but was either too cowardly or

too clever to make an open claim. So, he INSINUATED it and let the young and naive

fill in the blanks.

But yeah, I think a lot of the stuff mentioned was because their mindset was to never open up with or confess any negatives, which of course became hysterically fanatical...and just not feasible, at least in an honest way.

Sounds about right.

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-prophet

"One who speaks for God." vpw expected his every utterance to be treated like it

came directly from God Almighty. He certainly expected to be treated as if he

spoke for God. So, he claimed ONE of those titles openly- and that as the definitive one,

THE Teacher, not A Teacher.

As far as everything that came out of his mouth, I thought that book "Lifelines" was rather egotistical, (even in my Way Brain) making a book about all the "great" one-liners he had said througout the years. And some of them weren't original (maybe most of them, I don't know) Example - "life in the fast lane" - from the Eagles song. (like we wouldn't know that).

Edited by outandabout
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He got much of his conspiracy babble from a group called Liberty Lobby and their newsletter, The Spotlight. Liberty Lobby was/is a white supremacist, anti-Semitic organization whose specialty is hate-inducing, Holocaust denial propaganda. He (VPW) then spouted the talking points as if he was receiving them by revelation from God. Remember the bicentennial takeover, etc?.....That's where it came from. This has been documented on the pages of GSC.

Edited by waysider
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-prophet

"One who speaks for God." vpw expected his every utterance to be treated like it

came directly from God Almighty. He certainly expected to be treated as if he

spoke for God.

Case in point; in "Advanced Class '79 VP said something to the effect that if you were tightly connected to God, you could tell someone to go get a bucket of water and it would be the Word (or was it the will) of God. Back in those days, none of us felt that we could approach the spirituality of Wierwille so the implication was, if HE told US to go get a bucket of water, it would be the Word of God. Many other leaders took this bird-brained approach to their leadership and treated their people the same way. As they say, "it rolls downhill".

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So, he claimed ONE of those titles openly- and that as the definitive one,

THE Teacher, not A Teacher.

Me, I think vpw wanted to call himself all 5, but was either too cowardly or

too clever to make an open claim. So, he INSINUATED it and let the young and naive

fill in the blanks.

Yeah....what you said.

How does a lazy, plagiarizing rural preacher get to the place where adulation awaits and follows his every move? Well, he crafts out a persona, a myth. Then, he works to deceive......he connives and insulates himself from accountability.

IMO, wierwille studied the art of messaging (homiletics) and knew that crafting his image was task #1.

'The Teacher' sounded the best....since he had this stolen class from Leonard (in 1953). It lulled people in.

'The man of God' shtick worked good for this corps program and notched up the adulation, indoctrination factor.

'Father in the Word' was derived from vpw's teachings and, most notably, spoken by wierwille's enablers (lcm, geer).

In wierwille's travels, he'd picked up on the techniques of marketing. Whether he learned these deceptive tactics

from the world or the devil.....we may never know. But everything in twi was leveraged by wierwille's mystique.

He "seemed" to have aspects of those five gift ministries (noted by ww)......but standing outside with a skeptical

eye and scoring vpw on the merits of accountability and scripture, wierwille had NONE.

The Scriptures do NOT say that ye shall know them by their words and fair speeches (sermons).

The Scriptures SAY that ye shall know them by their fruit.

And.....wierwille's *fruit* was THE FRUIT OF THE FLESH.

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How does a lazy, plagiarizing rural preacher get to the place where adulation awaits and follows his every move? Well, he crafts out a persona, a myth. Then, he works to deceive......he connives and insulates himself from accountability.

Substitute the word "house painter" for the word "preacher" in the above paragraph, and you have Adolf Hitler.

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