We also learned how to eat "properly" and follow the rules of the cafeteria. I hear that donna is now teaching this at the classes.
We were subjected to "history lessons" about the ministry that taught us the word and how hard vee pee worked to get the word to us. We learned more about the trip to India and how they left their baby behind. :(-->
We were cut off from all radio, tv, newspaper and any other outside world influences. We had our rooms inspected to make sure they were clean and tidy enough. We learned how to shower with a bunch of other women. TOTALLY new experience for me. One of my roommates would get up at 4am just to avoid having to shower with all the other women.
It wasn't just the teachings that contributed to the indoctrination process, imo. It was the whole environment and atmosphere. I wonder if it's changed much since the students are required to stay in hotels now.
It wasn't just the teachings that contributed to the indoctrination process, imo. It was the whole environment and atmosphere.
Belle.....so true! By the time one reached the Advanced Class, the indoctrination was FAR MORE than just the teachings. Under the guise of helping us to be better equipped....twi was re-educating our attitudes on protocol, on denominational seed men, on submitting our conscience to selected retemories....etc. etc.
Imagine NOW...going to a corporate seminar or "class" and be treated like this???? Obviously, the indoctrination process is highly effective when variables are controlled and isolating the individual over a period of time.
Respectfully, I see why pfal-apologists rarily post on threads like this.....even though twi promoted pfal as a SERIES. Remember?? a believer is NOT complete until being instructed in all nine of the manifestations?? Teaching....peer pressure....atmosphere....isolation....not questioning authority....a calculating indoctrination.
And, I remind myself that wierwille was 58 years old or so when the Advanced Class was filmed in 1975. He knew how the manipulate and indoctrinate the youth !!!
"Imagine NOW...going to a corporate seminar or "class" and be treated like this????"
I have attended seminars for State-licensed foster-parents, where we had a similiar end result [the entire weekend filled with multiple classes and no time for 'outside' newspapers].
"Obviously, the indoctrination process is highly effective when variables are controlled and isolating the individual over a period of time."
'Period of time' intermediate class took a day, Advanced class took 2 weeks [i think?}.
In bootcamp, I was locked away in isolation for months.
"Respectfully, I see why pfal-apologists rarily post on threads like this...."
Hi.
"... a believer is NOT complete until ..."
From what I experienced and observed it was commonly thought that a beleiver was not 'complete' until they had graduated from the Corpse. At least that was the impression that I got from all those 'ring-knockers'.
:-)
Skyrider-
"Help me out here with some of the details......but if I remember correctly, the original pfal class version included three more hours, handling all three of the "worship manifestations." With this format, the new student was instructed on speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues and prophecy (in a believer's meeting). Right?
Well, it was too much for new students.....too much information to grasp in one class, or so I was told."
Yes, that does seem to be about right.
From what I have seen, it does appear that rolling the 'intermediate' topics in with the beginning topics, might well be a little 'too much'.
"In the Advanced Class, we were told to memorize the definitions of the nine manifestations. Much time was spent on outlining these definitions......and release group sessions were in place to stage a time for reinforcement. With these definitions and subjects like "the myth of the six million"...and "the marxist minstrels"...and the illuminati....and conspiracy theories....and seed of serpent overthrows......we learned the advanced class indoctrination that vpw presented."
From my impression, it did appear that each year's AC 'focused' on something a little different. I dont recall so much about the six-million but then again I was raised a Baptist so it was all old news to me. "the marxist minstrels" may have been mention but I dont recall today what that topc even is. "illuminati" sure it seems to me that every denomination needs to throw that one in, being a freemason, I hear it everywhere.
Those 16 keys, I do recall a song that listed them. And in my room at the AC, I did recieve a poster that showed them [it is in our bathroom wall today]. But most others did not get the poster, different posters were in each room, so we each got something different. I remember first reading it over, because it was NOT taught in the AC that I sat through.
So again I think that many of these things may have changed each year.
:-)
Belle-
"We were cut off from all radio, tv, newspaper and any other outside world influences. We had our rooms inspected to make sure they were clean and tidy enough. We learned how to shower with a bunch of other women. TOTALLY new experience for me. One of my roommates would get up at 4am just to avoid having to shower with all the other women."
Again being 'cutoff' is not something that I would normally notice, as through my career I have been utterly cut-off from all outside news sources for months at a time.
Room inspections? I should think that I woudl recall that one. Perhaps did someone totally make a mess of their room, so in knee-jerk reaction they decide to hold daily "inspections"?
I know that I never 'learned' to shower with a group of women :-) [where do I sign-up?]
Did you ever take any gym classes in school? college?
"And, I remind myself that wierwille was 58 years old or so when the Advanced Class was filmed in 1975. He knew how the manipulate and indoctrinate the youth"
Yes he had formal training, as did my pastor in my home-town as a child.
Well.. there is not a whole lot that I find objectionable in the intermediate class, but at least to me, what I would consider the real "leaven" to mess up the whole lump came in one little statement:
"we should come to the realization that we owe our very lives to the ministry that taught us da verd, blah blah blah..".
Pure friggin evil. Sure, there was good in the class, and we became the best tonguers and interpreters of tonguers this side of the mississippi. But look at the cost.
And like all the other good wayfers, I just sat there and listened to that statement without raising the slightest objection. "Hey, I thought that only the Lord owned me". After all, he is the one that paid the price.
This was the leaven that really messed up the lump. By the time you were in the advanced class, you were CONVINCED of it. You owed your life to the ministry. Thank God I did not go corpse.
In bootcamp, I was locked away in isolation for months.
Again being 'cutoff' is not something that I would normally notice, as through my career I have been utterly cut-off from all outside news sources for months at a time.
Room inspections? I should think that I woudl recall that one. Perhaps did someone totally make a mess of their room, so in knee-jerk reaction they decide to hold daily "inspections"?
I know that I never 'learned' to shower with a group of women :-) [where do I sign-up?]
Did you ever take any gym classes in school? college?
Dear, Galen. :)--> You must have done and continue to do so many wonderful things for God for how much he protected you in TWI.
I LIVE on the computer. My job depends on it. I also rely on it in my personal life: e-mail, e-pay, news, shopping, etc... I'm a news junkie and need my news in the morning as bad as I need my coffee. :D--> Two weeks without things like this that one is used to is torture. I know YOU'RE used to it, but YOU'RE special. ;)-->
I don't know where the room inspections came from but I had the idea that it was standard protocol for the class. I remember hearing people from previous classes talking about their inspections and one couple got in trouble for putting their wet towel in the wrong place. I remember feeling rather uncomfortable that someone was coming into my room and had access to my "stuff" when I wasn't there. Furthermore, I dreaded lunch time to have to hear about those who failed inspection and praying it wasn't me.
Yes, I took P.E. and have belonged to many a gym. I have NEVER been in a place where women shared a shower. Maybe it's from being raised in the Bible Belt *shrug* but I wasn't the only one who had never been exposed to showering with other women. I think guys grow up sharing bathrooms and showers so it's no big deal to them, but women do everything privately growing up and sharing something like that is extremely uncomfortable for the more modest women.
From my impression, it did appear that each year's AC 'focused' on something a little different. I dont recall so much about the six-million but then again I was raised a Baptist so it was all old news to me. "the marxist minstrels" may have been mention but I dont recall today what that topc even is. "illuminati" sure it seems to me that every denomination needs to throw that one in, being a freemason, I hear it everywhere.
Those 16 keys, I do recall a song that listed them. And in my room at the AC, I did recieve a poster that showed them [it is in our bathroom wall today]. But most others did not get the poster, different posters were in each room, so we each got something different. I remember first reading it over, because it was NOT taught in the AC that I sat through.
So again I think that many of these things may have changed each year.
Galen.......yeah, I would agree with that. Year after year, the Advanced Class changed! Back in the 70s, there were LOTS of tapes on various healings, deliverance stories, non-twi ministers who had cast out devil spirits, etc.
BUT....AS ALWAYS....by 1979 or thereabouts, the class agenda kept circling the wagons closer and closer to twi. By the mid-80s, lcm was teaching his stuff on seed of the serpent and illustrating how EVERY DENOMINATION was headed up by seed men!!! The twi-indoctrination was OBVIOUS.....and many of us would show the advanced class grads in our areas the OLD SYLLABUS and REVIEW OLDER MATERIAL.
I know that I wasn't the ONLY grad out there who tried to stop the LEAVENING PROCESS. With every new year, craig's & don's & howard's egotistical ramblings were spilling out all over the place. I couldn't stomach ROA anymore! I couldn't stand the big meetings! Being FAR AWAY FROM HQ was the best place to be!!!
By the late 80s and early 90s.....the advanced classes were an all-out assault on promoting the corps program!!!!!!!
"Dear, Galen. :)--> You must have done and continue to do so many wonderful things for God for how much he protected you in TWI."
I try.
"I LIVE on the computer."
Does it keep you warm?
I worked on mainframe computers onboard submarines but they were kept at 55 degrees so they were a little cool, I had to wear a sweater. But today's PCs do give off noticible warmth. :-)
If only I could encrypt music with my little song, but how cares she said I'm SPECIAL.
You know some times people say that "He is special" and they really mean special like Special-Ed kind of special; but she dont mean that. She means that she thinks I'm SPECIAL :-)
"... I remember hearing people from previous classes talking about their inspections and one couple got in trouble for putting their wet towel in the wrong place."
On one sub that I lived onboard, they made this policy that everytime we were walking between our bunkrooms and the showers we had to wear a towel, so I wore mine flung over my shoulder. Cause I'm SPECIAL!
"I remember feeling rather uncomfortable that someone was coming into my room and had access to my "stuff" when I wasn't there. Furthermore, I dreaded lunch time to have to hear about those who failed inspection and praying it wasn't me."
Oops sorry about that, if I contributed to your feelings of uncomfort, I apologize.
"I think guys grow up sharing bathrooms and showers so it's no big deal to them, but women do everything privately growing up and sharing something like that is extremely uncomfortable for the more modest women."
Could be, even in public restrooms, the men's urinals are mounted up on a wall, no privacy.
Like a McDonalds in France, no stalls, no doors to the restroom. Kind of kewl tht they sell beer with their hamburgers but, I once sat at a booth across the aisle from the entrance into the restroom and then got stuck by others sitting at my booth. Eating a burger while people are on the commode looking at you is kind of weird.
I once went to a restroom, it was up a flight of stairs, the stairs came up into the center of the room, so the urinals were 'mounted' against the handrails. So to use a urinal you faced the stairwell, anyone coming up the stairs, would first see you as they passed the level of your shoes, then advancing as they continued up the stairs. It was weird, but then as I focused on my mission and went to leave the restroom, was when I noticed that round the exterior walls of the room were mounted the commodes. Again no stalls, and this was a Co-Ed restroom.
[Ever watch the movie Das Boot? at the end the boat pulls alongside of a pier at the end of which is a series of concrete 'sub-pens'. That base is Brest France. The Co-Ed restroom was upstairs from the cafeteria on that base.]
"Galen.......yeah, I would agree with that. Year after year, the Advanced Class changed! Back in the 70s, there were LOTS of tapes on various healings, deliverance stories, non-twi ministers who had cast out devil spirits, etc.
Wow, I must be on a run here, everyone is agreeing with me. Cool.
Lets try this one:
I have a private little theory that I will share with you. But just Skyrider and Belle-the-wonderful.
I remember once sitting in a hall [maybe for the AC-special, I dont know] and they had these banners up on the walls. One banner for each past year, and they all had that one year's theme on them.
Going way back a long time. The themes were like: "love", or "giving", or "healing", or "Forgiveness", or "Grace".
And I remember sitting there and wondering, Wow if everyone's teachings for a whole year were somehow related to one of those topics, what a great fellowship everyone would have. There would be hundreds of Bible verses and contexts that could be read from, and everyone would be seeing great examples of how to be a family together and to love each other.
But at the time we were in these annual-themes like: "The pimple on Moses nose that itched on Thursdays" or some foolishness. Big huge long sentences that are No Where to be found in the Bible. I could no more find verses on them, then you could catch a greased pig.
My theory is that when some bonehead decided to begin using themes that were NOT fruits of the spirit, or attributes of loving kindness; that is when things went down hill. Because everyone [including those in-residence] were no longer being re-focused each week on those great themes.
So what do you think, am I goofy?
"I know that I wasn't the ONLY grad out there who tried to stop the LEAVENING PROCESS."
Good.
"I couldn't stand the big meetings! Being FAR AWAY FROM HQ was the best place to be!!!"
It is what worked for us.
"By the late 80s and early 90s.....the advanced classes were an all-out assault on promoting the corps program!!!!!!!"
As were the annual Limb Meetings.
I remember beleivers sharing with each other what verses to bring out, and what to say when we were to be confronted for why we had not signed up to go Corpse. As soon as the meetings would break-up and every stood to stretch, they would start. Some punk corpse-grad you never saw before would walk up and they started up with that: "Well, G-d told me, that your supposed to be going into the Corpse", or "Why dont you want to do G-d's Will and go into the corpse".
LOL! Dear Galen you ARE special and not in a short bus kind of way. ;)-->
You crack me up! Thanks for the giggle this morning. :D-->
quote:
"I remember feeling rather uncomfortable that someone was coming into my room and had access to my "stuff" when I wasn't there. Furthermore, I dreaded lunch time to have to hear about those who failed inspection and praying it wasn't me."
Oops sorry about that, if I contributed to your feelings of uncomfort, I apologize.
Unless you were going through my things, you were NOT responsible for my discomfort.
quote:
Eating a burger while people are on the commode looking at you is kind of weird.
Kind of weird sounds like kind of an understatement. :)-->
I loved 'Das Boot' but it's been a while. I'll have to watch it again.
I have a private little theory that I will share with you. But just Skyrider and Belle-the-wonderful.
I remember once sitting in a hall [maybe for the AC-special, I dont know] and they had these banners up on the walls. One banner for each past year, and they all had that one year's theme on them. Going way back a long time. The themes were like: "love", or "giving", or "healing", or "Forgiveness", or "Grace".
And I remember sitting there and wondering, Wow if everyone's teachings for a whole year were somehow related to one of those topics, what a great fellowship everyone would have. There would be hundreds of Bible verses and contexts that could be read from, and everyone would be seeing great examples of how to be a family together and to love each other.
But at the time we were in these annual-themes like: "The pimple on Moses nose that itched on Thursdays" or some foolishness. Big huge long sentences that are No Where to be found in the Bible. I could no more find verses on them, then you could catch a greased pig.
My theory is that when some bonehead decided to begin using themes that were NOT fruits of the spirit, or attributes of loving kindness; that is when things went down hill. Because everyone [including those in-residence] were no longer being re-focused each week on those great themes.
So what do you think, am I goofy?
Galen.....like so many other things in twi, it has a 'yes' AND 'no' answer.
Yes, some of those themes were simple and/or scripture-based......i.e. Speaking the Truth in Love or Living Sanctified or Living Victoriously or Walking in God's Power. Highlighted verses generally accompanied these themes and were heralded forth at the ROA.
No, some of the themes were subtle indoctrinational tools for twi doctrine.....i.e. Reaching the World with The Word or The Promised Land of the Prevailing Word. In twi fashion, the Word as perceived and taught and applied by twi.......all other groups and church activity that taught these same verses were counterfeiting God's true intent.
From my experiences....by 1984, I cannot recall twi leadership giving ANY CREDIT to any other Christian church or group that was spreading the gospel of deliverance. If twi wasn't in the spotlight as the "true deliverer"......then one should be very suspicious and keep his eyes open for devil spirits and seed of serpent men.
Themes could be used in a good way or a bad way depending on one's intent and agendas. It really doesn't matter if a theme is scripture-based.... in a cult environment. And, really....we were WARNED....O Foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you........ Are ye so foolish? having bgun in the Spirit? are ye now made perfect by the flesh? [Gal. 3:1,4]
In twi, our EYES WERE DIVERTED FROM FOCUSING ON JESUS CHRIST....his life, his work, his seated at the right hand and being the head of the One Body. Shame on twi's bod and their subtle agendas!!!
And no, Galen.....I don't think you are "goofy"......maybe a little naive, but not "goofy."
My theory is that when some bonehead decided to begin using themes that were NOT fruits of the spirit, or attributes of loving kindness; that is when things went down hill. Because everyone [including those in-residence] were no longer being re-focused each week on those great themes.
I also don't think you're goofy, Galen. I think you're SPECIAL! ;)-->
I agree with you that the themes and teachings point a group in the direction it will head. TWI got far from teaching about the fruits of the spirit and began focusing only on giving money, obedience to TWI legalism and witnessing to bring more money into TWI. I believe that even if they had kept the simple, basic fruits of the spirit in their focus that because of their inherent corruption, they would have just perverted those topics and twisted them to require the $$, obedience and witnessing to actually express any fruit of the spirit.....OH WAIT, they DID do that! :)--> They certainly did. I think it's in the WAP class, but I'll have to look it up.
'Twould be nice if TWI had the capacity and potential for goodness that you so want to attribute to it, Galen, but I'm afraid it never did and never will. I also think there are very very few of those good-hearted people like you left in TWI today. If there are, they certainly aren't in a major leadership position.
Ah... what about the damn dress codes for the meetings? I think I went weeks at a time (3 classes total in Rome City - 1 worked, 2 as a student) without wearing blue jeans.
Blue jeans - the debbil's garmets!
I wonder if it's because Levi's is out of San Fran-purple triangle/rainbow flag waving/full of fruit loops-cisco....??
Yes, room inspections were the norm. I know of a case where someone was SENT HOME because his room was too messy.
I also know where someone was sent home because he had the nerve - THE UTTER BRASS BALLS - to question how LCM handled the worship manifestations in the opening session of one of the classes. I believe LCM called on one extra person to profit-sigh and after the class the guy went up to LCM with a copy of RTHST to reprove him. *GASP*! Needless to say the guy was out the door quicker than you can say "Egomaniac!"
As far as Galen's experiene goes - here's my theory:
There were pockets of goodness in TWI. I think that's still true today. I moved all over the place and even had some sweet fellowship in cities that had really nasty leaders - we just steered clear of the jerks and had ourselves a good time! Then there were other fellowships or branches or even limbs that were "snake pits"...
My husband who was in TWI and left TWI before I got involved (1981-1988, I think...) had an overall good experience. He went WOW, didn't get as far as the advanced class, but doesn't have the horror stories I have. He says, "I left a church... YOU left a CULT!" He's still in touch with many of his old TWI friends. Most left with the POP - in droves.
The TWI that you and I knew, Belle, had more snakes. The good-hearted people were either gone, going or too entangled to be "good" anymore... They were just in survival mode...
Chas, that says a lot right there. I think that's where some of the differences of opinion on here come from. For some it was just a church, for others it was the "end all and be all" way to God and, later, guaranteed rewards at the bema. It was all consuming and took over the lives of those who were around the snakes. It was just a church to some of those who chose not to tow the line or who didn't experience the snakes we did.
Thanks, too, for the stories about the people getting sent home or getting in trouble. I don't feel so bad now. :)-->
“Galen you ARE special and not in a short bus kind of way.
You crack me up! Thanks for the giggle this morning.”
Your welcome.
“Kind of weird sounds like kind of an understatement.”
Yeah maybe, but that was a long time ago, and since then I have done far weirder-er things.
“I think that's where some of the differences of opinion on here come from. For some it was just a church, for others it was the "end all and be all"
Could be.
Skyrider-
“And no, Galen.....I don't think you are "goofy"......maybe a little naive, but not "goofy."
Hmm, I don’t know which is better, goofy or na?.
Chas-
“what about the damn dress codes for the meetings? I think I went weeks at a time (3 classes total in Rome City - 1 worked, 2 as a student) without wearing blue jeans.”
Well at least they did not require buns and bonnets.
if I remember correctly, the original pfal class version included three more hours, handling all three of the "worship manifestations." With this format, the new student was instructed on speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues and prophecy (in a believer's meeting). Right?
Well, it was too much for new students.....too much information to grasp in one class, or so I was told. Anyways, the extra hours of "worship manifestations instruction" was severed from pfal, along with the segment on "The Day Jesus Christ died." Later, the intermediate class re-emerged as a follow-up class and was offered to new pfal grads within 3-6 months to those who were faithful to twi fellowships and were "bold" in speaking in tongues.
Interesting. It was too much to handle? You mean the other 12 segments chaulked full of rediculous amounts of info was enough to handle? They had those 12 sessions down pat? I don't think so. I think it must have been a practical application issue. One that if done improperly could get out of control and maybe make the twi look silly or out of control. That is what I think.
So what happened? The same thing that always happened... Micromanagement. They made sure everyone was doing it the way the ministry wanted it done, "decent and in (twi's)order". Which brings me to a point I have made many times in reference to SIT. The way it was taught in both the foundational and intermediate, but esspecially the intermediate, was done in a way that I can't figure out how it couldn't have been on some mental level faked. You were taught to fake it, IMO. Forget that I think it is all bogus anyway. We were instructed to form the words ie. determine what you would say. It sounded real sure, but we were instructed that it had to sound like a real language...because it was, right. I've been thru all this before in greater detail, but you get the picture.
and galen,
no offense, I know I am using a bad word here but in many ways the military brain washes it's recruits. In regard to putting your life on the line and obeying your superior to the end that you run head on into certain death without question all for you country, it is needed. It is not needed to be a good Christian, let alone just a good human being.
Weren't there like 21 keys to walking in the spirit? or how many?
OutandAbout posted that...
That is a very cool thing - keys to walking by the spirit. In one way of looking at it; there may be dozens of keys.
And when we look around so-called Christians, those that profess to be spiritual, those keys - maybe call them qualities - seem very hard to find.
For example:
*Speech with grace.
*A word fitly spoken.
*Seeking not the higher seat, but the lower.
*All things done to edification.
*Seeking not her (his) own.
*Rejoiceth not in iniquity.
*Vaunteth not.
*Turneth wrath with a soft answer.
*Stirreth not strife as a wrathful man.
*Is iron sharpening iron.
*Not hasty in words (having more hope than a fool).
*Uttereth not thier entire mind (but is wise).
It's hard to imagine a Christian walking by the spirit without those keys to living.
Take the "stirreth strife" one. Some people specialize in keeping negatives and problems and sins and shortcomings stirred. All the stuff they can accumulate, even the facts; they make sure it's in clear view and doesn't settle into the dust. That's the trademark of that particular nature of individual.
The grace in speech one is fairly easy to spot, or not. That involves ettiquette as well as edifying speech.
And when we look around so-called Christians, those that profess to be spiritual, those keys - maybe call them qualities - seem very hard to find.
For example:
*Speech with grace.
*A word fitly spoken.
*Seeking not the higher seat, but the lower.
*All things done to edification.
*Seeking not her (his) own.
*Rejoiceth not in iniquity.
*Vaunteth not.
*Turneth wrath with a soft answer.
*Stirreth not strife as a wrathful man.
*Is iron sharpening iron.
*Not hasty in words (having more hope than a fool).
*Uttereth not thier entire mind (but is wise).
It's hard to imagine a Christian walking by the spirit without those keys to living.
Take the "stirreth strife" one. Some people specialize in keeping negatives and problems and sins and shortcomings stirred. All the stuff they can accumulate, even the facts; they make sure it's in clear view and doesn't settle into the dust. That's the trademark of that particular nature of individual.
The grace in speech one is fairly easy to spot, or not. That involves ettiquette as well as edifying speech.
mdvaden........just to clarify a bit, you are intermixing two different classifications here:
1) VPW's list of 16 keys to walking by the spirit.....i.e. "keys" to apply in situations of receiving revelation and/or imparting specific God-given knowledge (via word of knowledge, word of wisdom or discerning of spirits) to a unique and exclusive incident.
2) Christian principles and/or human benevolence in response to gracious living. People of other faiths are guided with similar lists of kindness and ediquette......i.e. soft answer turns away wrath, be kind to one another, love uplifts, etc.
Of course, many here at GS are aware that these "16 keys" were never intended to be the final and complete list of these "advanced" keys......vpw & lcm noted this in later years. The point of them in this discussion was to illustrate ANOTHER indoctrinational tool......where the student is required to memorize this list and recite it back in release sessions.
Reciting definitions and lists of keys is FAR DIFFERENT than having open and honest dialogue during those "release sessions." In actuality, those afternoon twigs were unsuspectingly framed in an agenda of manipulation and indoctrination.
And when we look around so-called Christians, those that profess to be spiritual, those keys - maybe call them qualities - seem very hard to find.
Pretty big generalization there, MDVaden. I’m wondering how much you’ve looked around. I actually see those keys more in “so-called Christians” than I ever did in TWI. And….as you are most likely going to say, there’s good and bad everywhere and not all people in TWI are perfect. Well, not all “so-called Christians” are either. And I’d really like to know what your definition of “so-called Chrisitans” is and how you think you’re qualified to determine whether someone is a Christian or a “so-called Christian”.
quote:
For example:
*Speech with grace.
Hmmmmm, being yelled at and told that God won’t spit in your direction. Told that if you leave “the one true household of god you’ll be a greasespot by midnight. Told that you should not speak with people who have been M&A despite the fact that we don’t M&A people anymore. Told that you’re an immature believer if you have debt…..all those things are speech with grace? Is that what you mean?
quote:
*A word fitly spoken.
Telling someone who is in desperate need that they should call their family (whom they quit speaking with because of a “strong suggestion” from leadership) for help? Not calling on someone in your branch or fellowship who had major surgery to see if they’re okay or if they need anything? Not speaking, would that be considered a word fitly spoken? Telling someone who needs help that they just need to believe God when you actually have the tools and means to really be of help. That kind of fitly spoken word? Some of the kindest, nicest, most healing things I’ve heard in the past few years have come from those “so-called Christians” and those no-so Christians. I can’t say the same about the people in TWI.
quote:
*Seeking not the higher seat, but the lower.
Leadership having your own, very nice home (some with multi-million dollar expansions that aren’t necessary)….Having a “head table”…..getting mad at someone who doesn’t stand when you enter the room…..always going first in line…..expecting people to clean your house and help you move while you don’t llift a finger to help any of them…..having rules for people to obey when you’re in town or visiting….those kinds of things? Funny, I don’t see that happening in the churches or around the “so-called Christians” I’ve been around.
quote:
*All things done to edification.
Yeah it’s edifying to sit through a phone hook-up to hear a teaching I’m going to hear again on a tape and again twice in fellowship. It’s edifying to have my life micro-managed and my finances exposed to people who don’t know jack about financial matters. It’s edifying to have to move every few years because rent goes up just so I can stay out of debt and maintain my status and access to the “higher seat” in the group.
quote:
*Seeking not her (his) own.
I guess holding over $40 Million in the coffers and going on exotic trips while telling my people that we are broke and really need for them to step up their abundant sharing isn’t seeking not her/his own. Neither is living in upper middle class neighborhoods while the rest of the people you oversee live in working class neighborhoods and go without cable tv so they can afford to provide you the lavish lifestyle you’re used to.
quote:
*Rejoiceth not in iniquity.
Is warning people to stay away from those who left TWI and telling them that they are possessed rejoicing in iniquity? If it’s the prudent thing to do, then consider that that’s what we’re doing here.
quote:
*Vaunteth not.
*Turneth wrath with a soft answer.
*Stirreth not strife as a wrathful man.
*Is iron sharpening iron.
*Not hasty in words (having more hope than a fool).
*Uttereth not thier entire mind (but is wise).
It's hard to imagine a Christian walking by the spirit without those keys to living.
I’m not going to continue on. I think you get the picture. I can find all these things in the “so-called believers” of TWI and I could give you local and extremely recent examples, but I don’t want to go there right now. PT me if you want specifics. My point is….look hard enough for anything and you’ll find it. With these keys, it’s not hard to find people in or out of TWI who don’t set fine examples of them. But, I think it’s easier to find people following them outside the walls of your zion.
quote:
All the stuff they can accumulate, even the facts; they make sure it's in clear view and doesn't settle into the dust.
That’s what we’re supposed to do. That’s why the Bible was written…”for our learning”. (I’m assuming this is a snide comment about Gspot and the people who post here.) To ignore the treachery of TWI and the lives that have been ruined by terrible, evil leadership is wrong. To warn those sheep and lambs of God who may get harmed by the wolves in sheep’s clothing leaders of TWI is the right thing to do, imo.
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outandabout
Weren't there like 21 keys to walking in the spirit? or how many?
Man, what a way to trip all over yourself while trying to "walk"!
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skyrider
O&A.....yeah, 16 keys.
We had to memorize those as well.
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Belle
We also learned how to eat "properly" and follow the rules of the cafeteria. I hear that donna is now teaching this at the classes.
We were subjected to "history lessons" about the ministry that taught us the word and how hard vee pee worked to get the word to us. We learned more about the trip to India and how they left their baby behind.
:(-->
We were cut off from all radio, tv, newspaper and any other outside world influences. We had our rooms inspected to make sure they were clean and tidy enough. We learned how to shower with a bunch of other women.
TOTALLY new experience for me. One of my roommates would get up at 4am just to avoid having to shower with all the other women.
It wasn't just the teachings that contributed to the indoctrination process, imo. It was the whole environment and atmosphere. I wonder if it's changed much since the students are required to stay in hotels now.
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skyrider
Belle.....so true! By the time one reached the Advanced Class, the indoctrination was FAR MORE than just the teachings. Under the guise of helping us to be better equipped....twi was re-educating our attitudes on protocol, on denominational seed men, on submitting our conscience to selected retemories....etc. etc.
Imagine NOW...going to a corporate seminar or "class" and be treated like this???? Obviously, the indoctrination process is highly effective when variables are controlled and isolating the individual over a period of time.
Respectfully, I see why pfal-apologists rarily post on threads like this.....even though twi promoted pfal as a SERIES. Remember?? a believer is NOT complete until being instructed in all nine of the manifestations?? Teaching....peer pressure....atmosphere....isolation....not questioning authority....a calculating indoctrination.
And, I remind myself that wierwille was 58 years old or so when the Advanced Class was filmed in 1975. He knew how the manipulate and indoctrinate the youth !!!
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GeorgeStGeorge
Darn. That wasn't part of MY Advanced Class!!
:D-->
George
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Galen
skyrider:
"Imagine NOW...going to a corporate seminar or "class" and be treated like this????"
I have attended seminars for State-licensed foster-parents, where we had a similiar end result [the entire weekend filled with multiple classes and no time for 'outside' newspapers].
"Obviously, the indoctrination process is highly effective when variables are controlled and isolating the individual over a period of time."
'Period of time' intermediate class took a day, Advanced class took 2 weeks [i think?}.
In bootcamp, I was locked away in isolation for months.
"Respectfully, I see why pfal-apologists rarily post on threads like this...."
Hi.
"... a believer is NOT complete until ..."
From what I experienced and observed it was commonly thought that a beleiver was not 'complete' until they had graduated from the Corpse. At least that was the impression that I got from all those 'ring-knockers'.
:-)
Skyrider-
"Help me out here with some of the details......but if I remember correctly, the original pfal class version included three more hours, handling all three of the "worship manifestations." With this format, the new student was instructed on speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues and prophecy (in a believer's meeting). Right?
Well, it was too much for new students.....too much information to grasp in one class, or so I was told."
Yes, that does seem to be about right.
From what I have seen, it does appear that rolling the 'intermediate' topics in with the beginning topics, might well be a little 'too much'.
"In the Advanced Class, we were told to memorize the definitions of the nine manifestations. Much time was spent on outlining these definitions......and release group sessions were in place to stage a time for reinforcement. With these definitions and subjects like "the myth of the six million"...and "the marxist minstrels"...and the illuminati....and conspiracy theories....and seed of serpent overthrows......we learned the advanced class indoctrination that vpw presented."
From my impression, it did appear that each year's AC 'focused' on something a little different. I dont recall so much about the six-million but then again I was raised a Baptist so it was all old news to me. "the marxist minstrels" may have been mention but I dont recall today what that topc even is. "illuminati" sure it seems to me that every denomination needs to throw that one in, being a freemason, I hear it everywhere.
Those 16 keys, I do recall a song that listed them. And in my room at the AC, I did recieve a poster that showed them [it is in our bathroom wall today]. But most others did not get the poster, different posters were in each room, so we each got something different. I remember first reading it over, because it was NOT taught in the AC that I sat through.
So again I think that many of these things may have changed each year.
:-)
Belle-
"We were cut off from all radio, tv, newspaper and any other outside world influences. We had our rooms inspected to make sure they were clean and tidy enough. We learned how to shower with a bunch of other women. TOTALLY new experience for me. One of my roommates would get up at 4am just to avoid having to shower with all the other women."
Again being 'cutoff' is not something that I would normally notice, as through my career I have been utterly cut-off from all outside news sources for months at a time.
Room inspections? I should think that I woudl recall that one. Perhaps did someone totally make a mess of their room, so in knee-jerk reaction they decide to hold daily "inspections"?
I know that I never 'learned' to shower with a group of women :-) [where do I sign-up?]
Did you ever take any gym classes in school? college?
"And, I remind myself that wierwille was 58 years old or so when the Advanced Class was filmed in 1975. He knew how the manipulate and indoctrinate the youth"
Yes he had formal training, as did my pastor in my home-town as a child.
:-)
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Ham
Well.. there is not a whole lot that I find objectionable in the intermediate class, but at least to me, what I would consider the real "leaven" to mess up the whole lump came in one little statement:
"we should come to the realization that we owe our very lives to the ministry that taught us da verd, blah blah blah..".
Pure friggin evil. Sure, there was good in the class, and we became the best tonguers and interpreters of tonguers this side of the mississippi. But look at the cost.
And like all the other good wayfers, I just sat there and listened to that statement without raising the slightest objection. "Hey, I thought that only the Lord owned me". After all, he is the one that paid the price.
This was the leaven that really messed up the lump. By the time you were in the advanced class, you were CONVINCED of it. You owed your life to the ministry. Thank God I did not go corpse.
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Belle
Dear, Galen.
:)--> You must have done and continue to do so many wonderful things for God for how much he protected you in TWI.
I LIVE on the computer. My job depends on it. I also rely on it in my personal life: e-mail, e-pay, news, shopping, etc... I'm a news junkie and need my news in the morning as bad as I need my coffee.
:D--> Two weeks without things like this that one is used to is torture. I know YOU'RE used to it, but YOU'RE special. 
;)-->
I don't know where the room inspections came from but I had the idea that it was standard protocol for the class. I remember hearing people from previous classes talking about their inspections and one couple got in trouble for putting their wet towel in the wrong place. I remember feeling rather uncomfortable that someone was coming into my room and had access to my "stuff" when I wasn't there. Furthermore, I dreaded lunch time to have to hear about those who failed inspection and praying it wasn't me.
Yes, I took P.E. and have belonged to many a gym. I have NEVER been in a place where women shared a shower. Maybe it's from being raised in the Bible Belt *shrug* but I wasn't the only one who had never been exposed to showering with other women. I think guys grow up sharing bathrooms and showers so it's no big deal to them, but women do everything privately growing up and sharing something like that is extremely uncomfortable for the more modest women.
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skyrider
Galen.......yeah, I would agree with that. Year after year, the Advanced Class changed! Back in the 70s, there were LOTS of tapes on various healings, deliverance stories, non-twi ministers who had cast out devil spirits, etc.
BUT....AS ALWAYS....by 1979 or thereabouts, the class agenda kept circling the wagons closer and closer to twi. By the mid-80s, lcm was teaching his stuff on seed of the serpent and illustrating how EVERY DENOMINATION was headed up by seed men!!! The twi-indoctrination was OBVIOUS.....and many of us would show the advanced class grads in our areas the OLD SYLLABUS and REVIEW OLDER MATERIAL.
I know that I wasn't the ONLY grad out there who tried to stop the LEAVENING PROCESS. With every new year, craig's & don's & howard's egotistical ramblings were spilling out all over the place. I couldn't stomach ROA anymore! I couldn't stand the big meetings! Being FAR AWAY FROM HQ was the best place to be!!!
By the late 80s and early 90s.....the advanced classes were an all-out assault on promoting the corps program!!!!!!!
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Galen
Belle:
"Dear, Galen.
:)--> You must have done and continue to do so many wonderful things for God for how much he protected you in TWI."
I try.
"I LIVE on the computer."
Does it keep you warm?
I worked on mainframe computers onboard submarines but they were kept at 55 degrees so they were a little cool, I had to wear a sweater. But today's PCs do give off noticible warmth. :-)
"I know YOU'RE used to it, but YOU'RE special."
I'm SPECIAL
A cute babe said that I'm SPECIAL.
If only I could encrypt music with my little song, but how cares she said I'm SPECIAL.
You know some times people say that "He is special" and they really mean special like Special-Ed kind of special; but she dont mean that. She means that she thinks I'm SPECIAL :-)
"... I remember hearing people from previous classes talking about their inspections and one couple got in trouble for putting their wet towel in the wrong place."
On one sub that I lived onboard, they made this policy that everytime we were walking between our bunkrooms and the showers we had to wear a towel, so I wore mine flung over my shoulder. Cause I'm SPECIAL!
"I remember feeling rather uncomfortable that someone was coming into my room and had access to my "stuff" when I wasn't there. Furthermore, I dreaded lunch time to have to hear about those who failed inspection and praying it wasn't me."
Oops sorry about that, if I contributed to your feelings of uncomfort, I apologize.
"I think guys grow up sharing bathrooms and showers so it's no big deal to them, but women do everything privately growing up and sharing something like that is extremely uncomfortable for the more modest women."
Could be, even in public restrooms, the men's urinals are mounted up on a wall, no privacy.
Like a McDonalds in France, no stalls, no doors to the restroom. Kind of kewl tht they sell beer with their hamburgers but, I once sat at a booth across the aisle from the entrance into the restroom and then got stuck by others sitting at my booth. Eating a burger while people are on the commode looking at you is kind of weird.
I once went to a restroom, it was up a flight of stairs, the stairs came up into the center of the room, so the urinals were 'mounted' against the handrails. So to use a urinal you faced the stairwell, anyone coming up the stairs, would first see you as they passed the level of your shoes, then advancing as they continued up the stairs. It was weird, but then as I focused on my mission and went to leave the restroom, was when I noticed that round the exterior walls of the room were mounted the commodes. Again no stalls, and this was a Co-Ed restroom.
[Ever watch the movie Das Boot? at the end the boat pulls alongside of a pier at the end of which is a series of concrete 'sub-pens'. That base is Brest France. The Co-Ed restroom was upstairs from the cafeteria on that base.]
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Galen
skyrider:
"Galen.......yeah, I would agree with that. Year after year, the Advanced Class changed! Back in the 70s, there were LOTS of tapes on various healings, deliverance stories, non-twi ministers who had cast out devil spirits, etc.
Wow, I must be on a run here, everyone is agreeing with me. Cool.
Lets try this one:
I have a private little theory that I will share with you. But just Skyrider and Belle-the-wonderful.
I remember once sitting in a hall [maybe for the AC-special, I dont know] and they had these banners up on the walls. One banner for each past year, and they all had that one year's theme on them.
Going way back a long time. The themes were like: "love", or "giving", or "healing", or "Forgiveness", or "Grace".
And I remember sitting there and wondering, Wow if everyone's teachings for a whole year were somehow related to one of those topics, what a great fellowship everyone would have. There would be hundreds of Bible verses and contexts that could be read from, and everyone would be seeing great examples of how to be a family together and to love each other.
But at the time we were in these annual-themes like: "The pimple on Moses nose that itched on Thursdays" or some foolishness. Big huge long sentences that are No Where to be found in the Bible. I could no more find verses on them, then you could catch a greased pig.
My theory is that when some bonehead decided to begin using themes that were NOT fruits of the spirit, or attributes of loving kindness; that is when things went down hill. Because everyone [including those in-residence] were no longer being re-focused each week on those great themes.
So what do you think, am I goofy?
"I know that I wasn't the ONLY grad out there who tried to stop the LEAVENING PROCESS."
Good.
"I couldn't stand the big meetings! Being FAR AWAY FROM HQ was the best place to be!!!"
It is what worked for us.
"By the late 80s and early 90s.....the advanced classes were an all-out assault on promoting the corps program!!!!!!!"
As were the annual Limb Meetings.
I remember beleivers sharing with each other what verses to bring out, and what to say when we were to be confronted for why we had not signed up to go Corpse. As soon as the meetings would break-up and every stood to stretch, they would start. Some punk corpse-grad you never saw before would walk up and they started up with that: "Well, G-d told me, that your supposed to be going into the Corpse", or "Why dont you want to do G-d's Will and go into the corpse".
:-)
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Belle
LOL! Dear Galen you ARE special and not in a short bus kind of way.
;)-->
You crack me up! Thanks for the giggle this morning.
:D-->
Unless you were going through my things, you were NOT responsible for my discomfort.
Kind of weird sounds like kind of an understatement.
:)-->
I loved 'Das Boot' but it's been a while. I'll have to watch it again.
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skyrider
Galen.....like so many other things in twi, it has a 'yes' AND 'no' answer.
Yes, some of those themes were simple and/or scripture-based......i.e. Speaking the Truth in Love or Living Sanctified or Living Victoriously or Walking in God's Power. Highlighted verses generally accompanied these themes and were heralded forth at the ROA.
No, some of the themes were subtle indoctrinational tools for twi doctrine.....i.e. Reaching the World with The Word or The Promised Land of the Prevailing Word. In twi fashion, the Word as perceived and taught and applied by twi.......all other groups and church activity that taught these same verses were counterfeiting God's true intent.
From my experiences....by 1984, I cannot recall twi leadership giving ANY CREDIT to any other Christian church or group that was spreading the gospel of deliverance. If twi wasn't in the spotlight as the "true deliverer"......then one should be very suspicious and keep his eyes open for devil spirits and seed of serpent men.
Themes could be used in a good way or a bad way depending on one's intent and agendas. It really doesn't matter if a theme is scripture-based.... in a cult environment. And, really....we were WARNED....O Foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you........ Are ye so foolish? having bgun in the Spirit? are ye now made perfect by the flesh? [Gal. 3:1,4]
In twi, our EYES WERE DIVERTED FROM FOCUSING ON JESUS CHRIST....his life, his work, his seated at the right hand and being the head of the One Body. Shame on twi's bod and their subtle agendas!!!
And no, Galen.....I don't think you are "goofy"......maybe a little naive, but not "goofy."
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Belle
I also don't think you're goofy, Galen. I think you're SPECIAL!
;)-->
I agree with you that the themes and teachings point a group in the direction it will head. TWI got far from teaching about the fruits of the spirit and began focusing only on giving money, obedience to TWI legalism and witnessing to bring more money into TWI. I believe that even if they had kept the simple, basic fruits of the spirit in their focus that because of their inherent corruption, they would have just perverted those topics and twisted them to require the $$, obedience and witnessing to actually express any fruit of the spirit.....OH WAIT, they DID do that!
:)--> They certainly did. I think it's in the WAP class, but I'll have to look it up.
'Twould be nice if TWI had the capacity and potential for goodness that you so want to attribute to it, Galen, but I'm afraid it never did and never will. I also think there are very very few of those good-hearted people like you left in TWI today. If there are, they certainly aren't in a major leadership position.
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ChasUFarley
Ah... what about the damn dress codes for the meetings? I think I went weeks at a time (3 classes total in Rome City - 1 worked, 2 as a student) without wearing blue jeans.
Blue jeans - the debbil's garmets!
I wonder if it's because Levi's is out of San Fran-purple triangle/rainbow flag waving/full of fruit loops-cisco....??
Yes, room inspections were the norm. I know of a case where someone was SENT HOME because his room was too messy.
I also know where someone was sent home because he had the nerve - THE UTTER BRASS BALLS - to question how LCM handled the worship manifestations in the opening session of one of the classes. I believe LCM called on one extra person to profit-sigh and after the class the guy went up to LCM with a copy of RTHST to reprove him. *GASP*! Needless to say the guy was out the door quicker than you can say "Egomaniac!"
As far as Galen's experiene goes - here's my theory:
There were pockets of goodness in TWI. I think that's still true today. I moved all over the place and even had some sweet fellowship in cities that had really nasty leaders - we just steered clear of the jerks and had ourselves a good time! Then there were other fellowships or branches or even limbs that were "snake pits"...
My husband who was in TWI and left TWI before I got involved (1981-1988, I think...) had an overall good experience. He went WOW, didn't get as far as the advanced class, but doesn't have the horror stories I have. He says, "I left a church... YOU left a CULT!" He's still in touch with many of his old TWI friends. Most left with the POP - in droves.
The TWI that you and I knew, Belle, had more snakes. The good-hearted people were either gone, going or too entangled to be "good" anymore... They were just in survival mode...
Just my theory... for what it's worth...
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Belle
Chas, that says a lot right there. I think that's where some of the differences of opinion on here come from. For some it was just a church, for others it was the "end all and be all" way to God and, later, guaranteed rewards at the bema. It was all consuming and took over the lives of those who were around the snakes. It was just a church to some of those who chose not to tow the line or who didn't experience the snakes we did.
Thanks, too, for the stories about the people getting sent home or getting in trouble. I don't feel so bad now.
:)-->
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Galen
Belle-
“Galen you ARE special and not in a short bus kind of way.
You crack me up! Thanks for the giggle this morning.”
Your welcome.
“Kind of weird sounds like kind of an understatement.”
Yeah maybe, but that was a long time ago, and since then I have done far weirder-er things.
“I think that's where some of the differences of opinion on here come from. For some it was just a church, for others it was the "end all and be all"
Could be.
Skyrider-
“And no, Galen.....I don't think you are "goofy"......maybe a little naive, but not "goofy."
Hmm, I don’t know which is better, goofy or na?.
Chas-
“what about the damn dress codes for the meetings? I think I went weeks at a time (3 classes total in Rome City - 1 worked, 2 as a student) without wearing blue jeans.”
Well at least they did not require buns and bonnets.
:-)
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lindyhopper
Interesting. It was too much to handle? You mean the other 12 segments chaulked full of rediculous amounts of info was enough to handle? They had those 12 sessions down pat? I don't think so. I think it must have been a practical application issue. One that if done improperly could get out of control and maybe make the twi look silly or out of control. That is what I think.
So what happened? The same thing that always happened... Micromanagement. They made sure everyone was doing it the way the ministry wanted it done, "decent and in (twi's)order". Which brings me to a point I have made many times in reference to SIT. The way it was taught in both the foundational and intermediate, but esspecially the intermediate, was done in a way that I can't figure out how it couldn't have been on some mental level faked. You were taught to fake it, IMO. Forget that I think it is all bogus anyway. We were instructed to form the words ie. determine what you would say. It sounded real sure, but we were instructed that it had to sound like a real language...because it was, right. I've been thru all this before in greater detail, but you get the picture.
and galen,
no offense, I know I am using a bad word here but in many ways the military brain washes it's recruits. In regard to putting your life on the line and obeying your superior to the end that you run head on into certain death without question all for you country, it is needed. It is not needed to be a good Christian, let alone just a good human being.
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mdvaden
OutandAbout posted that...
That is a very cool thing - keys to walking by the spirit. In one way of looking at it; there may be dozens of keys.
And when we look around so-called Christians, those that profess to be spiritual, those keys - maybe call them qualities - seem very hard to find.
For example:
*Speech with grace.
*A word fitly spoken.
*Seeking not the higher seat, but the lower.
*All things done to edification.
*Seeking not her (his) own.
*Rejoiceth not in iniquity.
*Vaunteth not.
*Turneth wrath with a soft answer.
*Stirreth not strife as a wrathful man.
*Is iron sharpening iron.
*Not hasty in words (having more hope than a fool).
*Uttereth not thier entire mind (but is wise).
It's hard to imagine a Christian walking by the spirit without those keys to living.
Take the "stirreth strife" one. Some people specialize in keeping negatives and problems and sins and shortcomings stirred. All the stuff they can accumulate, even the facts; they make sure it's in clear view and doesn't settle into the dust. That's the trademark of that particular nature of individual.
The grace in speech one is fairly easy to spot, or not. That involves ettiquette as well as edifying speech.
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lindyhopper
MDV,
I believe the ones he was refering to were ones like:
-revelation given once may change
-it may be neccessary to put unbelievers out of da room.
-I'm a SOGWAP hear me roar!
well the last one I made up, but the other two were two of the sixteen keys to walking by the spirit ala twits.
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mdvaden
Yes, the one's typically in a list.
Many good ones in the list. Sometimes those overshadow plain common sense living a clean edifying Christian lifestyle.
I do like the record about Samuel where God keeps repeating to him. It could have been years longer to read that section had it not been taught to me.
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lindyhopper
A benign choise of words "over shadow" is.
I would have said "replaced".
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skyrider
mdvaden........just to clarify a bit, you are intermixing two different classifications here:
1) VPW's list of 16 keys to walking by the spirit.....i.e. "keys" to apply in situations of receiving revelation and/or imparting specific God-given knowledge (via word of knowledge, word of wisdom or discerning of spirits) to a unique and exclusive incident.
2) Christian principles and/or human benevolence in response to gracious living. People of other faiths are guided with similar lists of kindness and ediquette......i.e. soft answer turns away wrath, be kind to one another, love uplifts, etc.
Of course, many here at GS are aware that these "16 keys" were never intended to be the final and complete list of these "advanced" keys......vpw & lcm noted this in later years. The point of them in this discussion was to illustrate ANOTHER indoctrinational tool......where the student is required to memorize this list and recite it back in release sessions.
Reciting definitions and lists of keys is FAR DIFFERENT than having open and honest dialogue during those "release sessions." In actuality, those afternoon twigs were unsuspectingly framed in an agenda of manipulation and indoctrination.
Think about it.
:)-->
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Belle
Pretty big generalization there, MDVaden. I’m wondering how much you’ve looked around. I actually see those keys more in “so-called Christians” than I ever did in TWI. And….as you are most likely going to say, there’s good and bad everywhere and not all people in TWI are perfect. Well, not all “so-called Christians” are either. And I’d really like to know what your definition of “so-called Chrisitans” is and how you think you’re qualified to determine whether someone is a Christian or a “so-called Christian”.
Hmmmmm, being yelled at and told that God won’t spit in your direction. Told that if you leave “the one true household of god you’ll be a greasespot by midnight. Told that you should not speak with people who have been M&A despite the fact that we don’t M&A people anymore. Told that you’re an immature believer if you have debt…..all those things are speech with grace? Is that what you mean?
Telling someone who is in desperate need that they should call their family (whom they quit speaking with because of a “strong suggestion” from leadership) for help? Not calling on someone in your branch or fellowship who had major surgery to see if they’re okay or if they need anything? Not speaking, would that be considered a word fitly spoken? Telling someone who needs help that they just need to believe God when you actually have the tools and means to really be of help. That kind of fitly spoken word? Some of the kindest, nicest, most healing things I’ve heard in the past few years have come from those “so-called Christians” and those no-so Christians. I can’t say the same about the people in TWI.
Leadership having your own, very nice home (some with multi-million dollar expansions that aren’t necessary)….Having a “head table”…..getting mad at someone who doesn’t stand when you enter the room…..always going first in line…..expecting people to clean your house and help you move while you don’t llift a finger to help any of them…..having rules for people to obey when you’re in town or visiting….those kinds of things? Funny, I don’t see that happening in the churches or around the “so-called Christians” I’ve been around.
Yeah it’s edifying to sit through a phone hook-up to hear a teaching I’m going to hear again on a tape and again twice in fellowship. It’s edifying to have my life micro-managed and my finances exposed to people who don’t know jack about financial matters. It’s edifying to have to move every few years because rent goes up just so I can stay out of debt and maintain my status and access to the “higher seat” in the group.
I guess holding over $40 Million in the coffers and going on exotic trips while telling my people that we are broke and really need for them to step up their abundant sharing isn’t seeking not her/his own. Neither is living in upper middle class neighborhoods while the rest of the people you oversee live in working class neighborhoods and go without cable tv so they can afford to provide you the lavish lifestyle you’re used to.
Is warning people to stay away from those who left TWI and telling them that they are possessed rejoicing in iniquity? If it’s the prudent thing to do, then consider that that’s what we’re doing here.
I’m not going to continue on. I think you get the picture. I can find all these things in the “so-called believers” of TWI and I could give you local and extremely recent examples, but I don’t want to go there right now. PT me if you want specifics. My point is….look hard enough for anything and you’ll find it. With these keys, it’s not hard to find people in or out of TWI who don’t set fine examples of them. But, I think it’s easier to find people following them outside the walls of your zion.
That’s what we’re supposed to do. That’s why the Bible was written…”for our learning”. (I’m assuming this is a snide comment about Gspot and the people who post here.) To ignore the treachery of TWI and the lives that have been ruined by terrible, evil leadership is wrong. To warn those sheep and lambs of God who may get harmed by the wolves in sheep’s clothing leaders of TWI is the right thing to do, imo.
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