Undertow - Escaping from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International

[Bolshevik]

1 minute ago, chockfull said:

I read what you wrote here.  It sounds completely without empathy.  It sounds like you refuse to acknowledge the ties that family, friends, marriages, and long time associations produce by nature of those relationships existing.

Sure at any time any of us could have escaped the bondage we endured by refusing at that moment to accept the false authority usurped by tyrants, cutting ties and leaving.

So what? 

I find your example comparing this to hitting yourself in the hand repeatedly to be very inaccurate as well as triggering and judgmental.  Ties formed by family and choices aren’t easily reversed.  You can’t just wave your hand like they never existed.

But that’s you so it’s par for the course.

As I said, empathy is a weapon.  Used by cults.

I have burned bridges.  It left me completey isolated, homeless, broke, etc.  

I still have family in TWI.

I don't understand what you think I don't understand.

[chockfull]

1 minute ago, Bolshevik said:

As I said, empathy is a weapon.  Used by cults.

I have burned bridges.  It left me completey isolated, homeless, broke, etc.  

I still have family in TWI.

I don't understand what you think I don't understand.

Umm that would be empathy.  It is not simply a cult weapon it is also one of Jesus greatest characteristics taught and lived.

Edited July 5, 2023 by chockfull

[Bolshevik]

Just now, chockfull said:

Umm that would be empathy.

What is the correct answer you would like to hear from me?

[Bolshevik]

A plea for empathy and vulnerability is a strategy of cults.  Yes?

[chockfull]

1 minute ago, Bolshevik said:

What is the correct answer you would like to hear from me?

Any answer where you don’t randomly attack concepts people are sharing and ridiculing them and their life story they published would be a good start.

[Bolshevik]

1 minute ago, chockfull said:

Any answer where you don’t randomly attack concepts people are sharing and ridiculing them and their life story they published would be a good start.

Am I to understand some things can never be questioned?  

Wasn't Mein Kampf a plea to the emotions?

[chockfull]

2 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

A plea for empathy and vulnerability is a strategy of cults.  Yes?

Cults use whatever tool is convenient and gets the job done.  From what I’ve seen it is a combo of a plea for empathy, false indignation for poor treatment of a narcissist, and a call to unity of some kind like “come on home” that is the strategy of cults.

If they just left it at empathy they would be in danger of imitating Jesus Christ.

[chockfull]

1 minute ago, Bolshevik said:

Am I to understand some things can never be questioned?  

Wasn't Mein Kampf a plea to the emotions?

Is it available to question things without being a grade A douchebag?

[chockfull]

10 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

As I said, empathy is a weapon.  Used by cults.

I have burned bridges.  It left me completey isolated, homeless, broke, etc.  

I still have family in TWI.

I don't understand what you think I don't understand.

I mean you are straddling a fence.  Your support systems are in TWI.  But you aren’t.

You understand your world but not worlds outside yours.  That’s pretty normal and average.

This is the dilemma of the cult.  Keep all the support systems under control so they can’t truly leave.

[chockfull]

Just now, Bolshevik said:

*checks calendar*

GSC does not know why it exists.  It is an act of violence itself.

Now who is being the drama queen?  Just like your answer to C if you don’t read it it doesn’t exist and there is a net zero effect.

[Bolshevik]

Just now, chockfull said:

I mean you are straddling a fence.  Your support systems are in TWI.  But you aren’t.

You understand your world but not worlds outside yours.  That’s pretty normal and average.

This is the dilemma of the cult.  Keep all the support systems under control so they can’t truly leave.

I understand what good are these stories if they can't be employed against the next cult.

[Bolshevik]

Just now, chockfull said:

Now who is being the drama queen?  Just like your answer to C if you don’t read it it doesn’t exist and there is a net zero effect.

I think you're derailing.

The author brought of feelings feelings feelings.  Trying to get under that.

[chockfull]

1 minute ago, Bolshevik said:

I understand what good are these stories if they can't be employed against the next cult.

Stories are only good for object lessons.  And warnings to remain vigilant so the next traveling salesman doesn’t trick the gullible out of all they have saved up.  Without vigilance and discernment and distinction how do you keep from wandering from cult to cult?

[Bolshevik]

Just now, chockfull said:

Stories are only good for object lessons.  And warnings to remain vigilant so the next traveling salesman doesn’t trick the gullible out of all they have saved up.  Without vigilance and discernment and distinction how do you keep from wandering from cult to cult?

I posted about another cult, Chockful.

They target emotions.  Re-socializing young children.

[chockfull]

2 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

I think you're derailing.

The author brought of feelings feelings feelings.  Trying to get under that.

I was addressing a direct criticism of the authors augmented post personally attacking her life.

That is not derailment it is direct on point.

[chockfull]

1 minute ago, Bolshevik said:

I posted about another cult, Chockful.

They target emotions.  Re-socializing young children.

What cult is this?  I must have missed this.

[Bolshevik]

The Way, this cult The Way International.  Mostly targeted young adults.

Young adults make stupid decisions.   Who then turned themselves into animals.

Why get butt hurt trying to pull out the leverage?  Young adults had some defense.  Most do not.

 

 

Further, The Way east and Way West was hijacked.   Crap defense.

That key

[chockfull]

1 minute ago, Bolshevik said:

The Way, this cult The Way International.  Mostly targeted young adults.

Young adults make stupid decisions.   Who then turned themselves into animals.

Why get butt hurt trying to pull out the leverage?  Young adults had some defense.  Most do not.

 

 

Further, The Way east and Way West was hijacked.   Crap defense.

That key

Ok but I don’t have the same Lord of the Flies view you do about young people making stupid decisions and turning themselves into animals.

Once you remove the cult surroundings in my experience young people don’t really do that.

[Bolshevik]

6 minutes ago, chockfull said:

Ok but I don’t have the same Lord of the Flies view you do about young people making stupid decisions and turning themselves into animals.

Once you remove the cult surroundings in my experience young people don’t really do that.

I'm repeating what I read on GSC.

 

[Bolshevik]

17 hours ago, waysider said:

This sort of thing is what happened to me. One day, in FellowLaborers, I found myself all alone in the house for some reason. I happened to look in a full length mirror and, just like that, like a bolt of lightning, a feeling of self-awareness came over me as I found myself asking, "How the hell did I get here?". Now, I don't mean I couldn't remember arriving or the trip there. I mean I suddenly wondered how my life could have evolved so drastically without me noticing. I realized I wasn't the same person I had been before I got involved with The Way. Not just a little different, but like a completely different person. My bridges to return were gone, vanished. It's not a good feeling. I started to silently question everything that was happening. If only I had paid closer attention to what was unfolding, life might have been very different. Would it have been better? Would it have been worse? Who's to say. But, for sure, it would have been much different.

Bringing this back.  I thought waysider made a good description.  I don't think this experience is unique to cults.  

It is a situation telling the person something needs to change.

[Bolshevik]

On 7/3/2023 at 7:37 AM, penworks said:

Thanks, Chockful. I'm glad to share that interview here. One of my favorite questions from Prof. Moss and my answer:

MM: In the last chapter, “Turning the Tide,” you write about the denial of feelings that had become so prevalent in The Way’s teachings. Could you please elaborate on that aspect?

CLE: One of Wierwille’s pet phrases was “Feelings come and go, but the Word of God liveth and abideth forever.” What he meant was that we were not to trust our feelings because they change all the time. And because they change, Wierwille told us they were unreliable sources for truth about ourselves. When our feelings contradicted Wierwille, we were trained to reject those feelings. One important example of this from my own life is in Undertow: Even when my gut feelings told me that the man I married had betrayed me and was not good for me, I was supposed to reconcile with him because the Bible said to forgive.

Bringing this back too.

CLE is not listening to herself at this time.

[Bolshevik]

If you want empathy, yes those feelings suck.  I gave my own example.

But what happens going forward is what matters more.  They psyched themselves out of acting to their own benefit. 

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

Ok but I don’t have the same Lord of the Flies view you do about young people making stupid decisions and turning themselves into animals.

Once you remove the cult surroundings in my experience young people don’t really do that.

He is playing the role of troll. Probably counterproductive to attempt to reason with him at all anymore.

[Bolshevik]

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

I was addressing a direct criticism of the authors augmented post personally attacking her life.

That is not derailment it is direct on point.

I don't recall personally attacking her life on this thread.  

I'm pointing at a pattern of behavior among many people, which she highlighted well.  I brought posts back to show you.  You are appearing to be creating a diversion.

Using "empathy" as means to shut down thinking.

 

 

And PS.

I hate The Way International more than you are capable of.

 

 

 

[Nathan_Jr]

21 hours ago, waysider said:

"If you leave now, the adversary will have free reign to harm your family."

 

(or so we are told, as Advanced Class grads.)

Gaslighting is violence. Sanity is leveraged.