Undertow - Escaping from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International

[Mike]

4 minutes ago, waysider said:

Plenty of stuff never made it into the official record. Did people always question the originating source?

Did you base this on information in the written materials or was this just your personal feeling on the matter?

Oftentimes a doctrine would appear in the written or taped teachings, and then in later years the TVT versions of that doctrine will have become distorted.  I think this happened with feelings.  We were given some good advice about not letting feelings run our doctrinal lives, and then it was later distorted and expanded in the later TVTs.

I think we should ALWAYS check the record in matters like this, and not rely on 40 year old memories that are saturated with negative feelings for some.

[Nathan_Jr]

Just now, Bolshevik said:

Yes, but which flag should one fly?  Yours?  Or all of them?

All of them. One should appear to be equitable. That way no one gets missed - victor said that, too.

[Mike]

6 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

You think wrongly. I'm not making it up. Watch it for yourself. "It's true, even if you don't beleeeve it." victor said that, too. it's in the record.

You are incorrectly merging what LCM said on the original sin with what VPW said about it.

[Nathan_Jr]

18 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

victor paul wierwille, charlatan, said Eve's lesbian escapade with the snake was the original sin. He said he couldn't prove it, because it lacked textual evidence, he just had a feeling it was true.

He didn't sound embarrassed to spew such agonizing stupidity, he sounded gleeful in his kerchief and loudly plaid suit. (An ironic homo-erotic image.)

Victor was recorded on film saying this for the CF&S class. Anyone can view this record for themselves on archive.org.

 

Check the record. I'm open to being proven wrong.

 

mmmph

 

[Nathan_Jr]

Just now, Mike said:

You are incorrectly merging what LCM said on the original sin with what VPW said about it.

No. Are you?

[waysider]

2 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

You think wrongly. I'm not making it up. Watch it for yourself. "It's true, even if you don't beleeeve it." victor said that, too. it's in the record.

I witnessed this with my own eyes and ears. And, though I don't recall him specifically saying it was about Eve being a lesbian, the salient point is that he DID say ,"I don't have any scriptural evidence. Father showed it to me. You'll just have to trust me on this one."

My wording may not be 100% verbatim. I'm recalling this from over 50 years ago.

[Nathan_Jr]

Just now, waysider said:

I witnessed this with my own eyes and ears. And, though I don't recall him specifically saying it was about Eve being a lesbian, the salient point is that he DID say ,"I don't have any scriptural evidence. Father showed it to me. You'll just have to trust me on this one."

My wording may not be 100% verbatim. I'm recalling this from over 50 years ago.

He knew he was being filmed when he said his feelings trumped the evidence. Because he knew he could be caught on film, he wasn't willing to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, as he did so often, by attributing such wicked stupidity to the Father.

[Mike]

9 minutes ago, waysider said:

I witnessed this with my own eyes and ears. And, though I don't recall him specifically saying it was about Eve being a lesbian, the salient point is that he DID say ,"I don't have any scriptural evidence. Father showed it to me. You'll just have to trust me on this one."

My wording may not be 100% verbatim. I'm recalling this from over 50 years ago.

 

I agree about the evidence part.  It was the only time I ever saw or heard of VPW saying anything like that. 

 

[waysider]

I took an early version of the CF&S class. In that session he said that the original sin was mutual masturbation and that the eating of the tree was....Uhhm...maybe it's best you fill in the blanks. Anyhow, the real point here is, as Nathan_Jr stated, that he said his feelings trumped the evidence. 

[waysider]

6 minutes ago, Mike said:

It was the only time I ever saw or heard of VPW saying anything like that. 

 

But, you did hear him say it. Is this correct?

[Nathan_Jr]

In the CF&S class victor is recorded on film as saying he cannot prove it because there is no textual evidence, extant or to be found someday in the future when Walter goes back to Germany, he just had a feeling he was right.

He didn't linger on this "teaching." If one isn't paying attention, because one is watching with pinwheeled eyeballs of devotion and reverence, one could miss it.

[Bolshevik]

36 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

All of them. One should appear to be equitable. That way no one gets missed - victor said that, too.

GAWH! - The redistribution of feelings and emotions!

THAT's why Adam wore the fig leaf too!  He didn't eat the carpet, but he shared in the shame.

[waysider]

You know what else he said in this "class"? He said intercourse is a spiritual event.

WHAT??

[waysider]

3 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

He didn't eat the carpet, but he shared in the shame.

Man, if that ain't a classic, what is? lol

Edited July 3, 2023 by waysider
spelling

[Nathan_Jr]

5 hours ago, waysider said:

I took an early version of the CF&S class. In that session he said that the original sin was mutual masturbation and that the eating of the tree was....Uhhm...maybe it's best you fill in the blanks. Anyhow, the real point here is, as Nathan_Jr stated, that he said his feelings trumped the evidence. 

He could have said that in the filmed class I saw. I may be conflating that with the Loy lesbian "teaching," to Mike's point.

But what is crystal clear to me is the, "I have no proof, it's just a feeling." It's clear in my memory because THAT is what is memorable to me, not some man made private interpretation - those are a dime a dozen and victor's interpretations were as private and as vividly imagined as anyone's.

Like the bastard bar mitzvah "teaching," it's not the implausibility of the private interpretation that woke me up from the droning slog of PFAL, it was the citation of "someone told me once, gee, can't remember his name, but it was some guy, boy, if I can ever remember...."

This is astonishingly poor scholarship! From a guy who insisted on being called by an academic title he purchased through the mail! It is an incredibly stupid, intellectually and spiritually, thing to say. It goes to his credibility, his integrity, his propensity towards accurate research.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Nathan_Jr
Gloves

[Bolshevik]

4 minutes ago, waysider said:

Man, if that ain't a classic, what is? lol

Quote

Fig leaves are large, broad, and flat, averaging 12-25 centimeters in length and 10-18 centimeters in width. The bright, vibrant green leaf has 3-5 lobes with thick veins and a prominent stem.

https://specialtyproduce.com/produce/Fig_Leaves_7136.php#:~:text=Fig leaves are large%2C broad,veins and a prominent stem.

[Nathan_Jr]

"Her lips were like freshly cut figs."

Siddhartha, Herman Hesse

[Bolshevik]

27 minutes ago, waysider said:

I took an early version of the CF&S class. In that session he said that the original sin was mutual masturbation and that the eating of the tree was....Uhhm...maybe it's best you fill in the blanks. Anyhow, the real point here is, as Nathan_Jr stated, that he said his feelings trumped the evidence. 

LCM took it further.  And I think by reading into words.

I'm pretty sure the verse doesn't imply any of that.  It talks about eyes and knowledge.  What do eyes symbolize?  (rhetorical - NOT what LCM said)

The fig leaves obviously were symbolic of covering shame. And poorly.

 

Great so VPW had a feeling.  Where do feelings come from?  Why would he have a feeling?  Well the NPD has no real sense of self and so lives as a false self . . . . 

[waysider]

It reminds me of an old comic in Mad Magazine. The spy is wearing a disguise that consists of a black eyeglass rim with a fake nose and mustache attached. He removes the disguise and looks just like he did with the disguise.

[Bolshevik]

5 minutes ago, waysider said:

It reminds me of an old comic in Mad Magazine. The spy is wearing a disguise that consists of a black eyeglass rim with a fake nose and mustache attached. He removes the disguise and looks just like he did with the disguise.

Well VPW did tell everyone from the get go this is all about Power.  The Class The Class The Class.  Power Power Power.

[Nathan_Jr]

5 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Well VPW did tell everyone from the get go this is all about Power.  The Class The Class The Class.  Power Power Power.

Is that what was available that one needed to know how (H-O-W) to get and what to do with once gotten?

[Bolshevik]

1 minute ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Is that what was available that one needed to know how (H-O-W) to get and what to do with once gotten?

A Permanent Revolution for any hamster.

[Nathan_Jr]

Mmmph

[chockfull]

1 hour ago, waysider said:

I witnessed this with my own eyes and ears. And, though I don't recall him specifically saying it was about Eve being a lesbian, the salient point is that he DID say ,"I don't have any scriptural evidence. Father showed it to me. You'll just have to trust me on this one."

My wording may not be 100% verbatim. I'm recalling this from over 50 years ago.

I guess this is what happens when the Word first interprets itself but then it doesn’t for everyone.

I guess we all can’t have Timothy statues of us or the lobbies would be filled to overflowing like Mars hill.

Is this where paint by numbers meets the face in the hat interpretation like Joseph Smith?

Trust me.  No not if you’re a butcher a lawyer or a preacher lol.

[Mike]

1 hour ago, waysider said:

But, you did hear him say it. Is this correct?

Oh yes.  It was very memorable in its uniqueness.

I chalk it up to just another way he was telling us that God was directly teaching him on how to fix the broken doctrine of churchianity.

Without such an intervention by God in 1942, there was no chance of churchianity ever getting back to what God had set up.

It was when I started taking the 1942 promise seriously in 1998 that MANY enigmatic things of VPW started fitting together.  

I never took it seriously before 1998.  I saw others who were very moved by that story, but not me. I had no way of verifying it. Same with the smattering of miracles I'd hear about.

The doctrinal things that I was able to verify were what occupied my attention.  I spent years going through them one by one.  But the 1942 promise did not interest me. 

But by 1998 quite a few enigmas had accumulated, and the no evidence for the CF&S presentation on the original sin was just one of them.   The mandate to the Research Department was another set of enigmas.

These and a few others were all cleared up when I started taking the 1942 promise seriously in 1998, and seriously reading all the collaterals with that meekness installed in my brain. 

It was a very deliberate, non-emotional decision. I was not sleep deprived or in a cult lifestyle.  I had 26 years of evidence to sift through, and had observed how poorly all the leaders after him did with their classes.

It is from this solidity that I laugh at the flimsy weather report research done to try and debunk the details that were given on the 1942 promise.

 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Mike