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oldiesman

Gifts of the Holy Spirit in the Catholic Church

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Hi Folks,  I recently attended a teaching on the manifestations-gifts of the Holy Spirit inside the Catholic Church. Some history of them inside the church, how and where it resurfaced in the early 1900's; then the lady actually demonstrates it with audience participation and testimonials.    Most curious was the excellor session on the word of knowledge she demonstrates.    Do you remember if we had done those in twi?    It seems to me this woman is right on.   What do you think?

 

 

 

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He subject used to be called "Charismatic Catholics."  You might find more information under that title.   (Yes, they used "charismata" as the root for "charismatic" since they say those are gifts.   If it's ONE gift, it may be considered A "charisma" per Christian, so, the title still works under the other system.)

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11 hours ago, oldiesman said:

Most curious was the excellor session on the word of knowledge she demonstrates.    Do you remember if we had done those in twi? 

We had excellor sessions with word of prophesy. That was a common practice. Regarding word of knowledge excellors, you could probably fit healing services, such as the one at the close of ROA '73, into that definition. Is she *right on*? I suppose that depends on what you mean by *right on*.

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What do you think?

Oldiesman! The lady speaks like a legitimate biblical teacher, while learning from and quoting actual bible verses. In my view for faith, she gets a grade of "A". For teaching, she gets a passing grade. Interesting that sometimes the Roman Catholic church believes in the gift of the Holy Spirit and the manifestation, evidence, events or gifts of the Holy Spirit. Whatever they want to call it, it is OK with me. 

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For those who might be interested, this video (which I can't access) is 1h4m long.

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1 hour ago, Twinky said:

For those who might be interested, this video (which I can't access) is 1h4m long.

Do you know why you can't access the video?

 

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Yet another update, I think; it opens now.

But in any event, the video is still 1h4m long and I just don't have that time.  It would be considerate when people post long videos, if they'd say how long they take and indicate specific times when something is interesting.

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17 hours ago, WordWolf said:

He subject used to be called "Charismatic Catholics."  You might find more information under that title.   (Yes, they used "charismata" as the root for "charismatic" since they say those are gifts.   If it's ONE gift, it may be considered A "charisma" per Christian, so, the title still works under the other system.)

Yes.  The word she specifically used was "charisms".    Here is a source that I thought was interesting:
http://ccro-msp.org/charisms-holy-spirit/

Notice what they say about interpretation of tongues "tongues along with interpretation amounts to prophesy".   Sounds like twi!

I have been to a few Catholic charismatic services where there was a word of prophesy (much like twi = edification, exhortation and comfort) but some of them spoke in tongues without interpretation.   I didn't talk to them about interpretation or holding back the tongues without interpretation; there wasn't much of it.   Then at the end of the service the priest has a short Mass with Eucharist communion service.    Then later praying, laying on of hands.   This is all in the new Novus Ordo church not the traditional (which considers SIT and other manifestations invalid.)

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12 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Oldiesman! The lady speaks like a legitimate biblical teacher, while learning from and quoting actual bible verses. In my view for faith, she gets a grade of "A". For teaching, she gets a passing grade. Interesting that sometimes the Roman Catholic church believes in the gift of the Holy Spirit and the manifestation, evidence, events or gifts of the Holy Spirit. Whatever they want to call it, it is OK with me. 

It's been a niche subject, but they've been discussing it (in small groups)  since at least the early 70s and possibly sooner.   So far, nothing like a big encyclical saying "Ok, now, everybody read up on this" or anything.

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6 hours ago, Twinky said:

Yet another update, I think; it opens now.

But in any event, the video is still 1h4m long and I just don't have that time.  It would be considerate when people post long videos, if they'd say how long they take and indicate specific times when something is interesting.

It certainly would be appreciated.  When someone doesn't mention the length, I tend to think it's under 15 minutes and usually less.    It is nice to let people know when they'd have to sit for an hour to listen to the whole thing, and when to go to if there's a specific question.

 

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6 hours ago, oldiesman said:

Yes.  The word she specifically used was "charisms".    Here is a source that I thought was interesting:
http://ccro-msp.org/charisms-holy-spirit/

Notice what they say about interpretation of tongues "tongues along with interpretation amounts to prophesy".   Sounds like twi!

I have been to a few Catholic charismatic services where there was a word of prophesy (much like twi = edification, exhortation and comfort) but some of them spoke in tongues without interpretation.   I didn't talk to them about interpretation or holding back the tongues without interpretation; there wasn't much of it.   Then at the end of the service the priest has a short Mass with Eucharist communion service.    Then later praying, laying on of hands.   This is all in the new Novus Ordo church not the traditional (which considers SIT and other manifestations invalid.)

Well, don't be surprised if we respond before spending 1 hour, 4 minutes on the thing.  I still haven't seen all of it, and I caught around 45 minutes last night.

Covering some of the same verses as twi, she came to some of the same conclusions Leonard and others have come to.  

Do you have more about this "Novus Ordo"?   I'm sure I'm not the only one who's curious.

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One errant or misunderstood part of the lady's teaching though. She mentions tithes or tithing. Tithing is misunderstood often and can be used to make money for large religious organizations and individual  already wealthy people instead of being used to help poor people. Tithing is NOT required in the New Testament. This was only practiced in the Old Testament under the Jewish religion. Here they mixed faith in God with their political authority. Jesus Christ spoke against this often as these people were not service oriented like Jesus wanted people to be. Instead they wanted power, authority and perhaps even worship of themselves. Here is an example of this with the first usage of tithe or tithing in the New Testament. 

Quote

Matthew 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
KJV
 

Here is the NIV version. This version does not use the word tithe. However, obviously the same Greek word for tithe. The NIV simply describes the corruption and greed more of using tithing to gain religious authority and perhaps also using it to make money instead of helping the poor. The word "greed" is used in verse 25.

Quote

Matthew 23:23-28

23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices — mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law — justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 

25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. 

27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. 
NIV

 

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
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17 hours ago, WordWolf said:

Well, don't be surprised if we respond before spending 1 hour, 4 minutes on the thing.  I still haven't seen all of it, and I caught around 45 minutes last night.

Covering some of the same verses as twi, she came to some of the same conclusions Leonard and others have come to.  

Do you have more about this "Novus Ordo"?   I'm sure I'm not the only one who's curious.

I can share what I've experienced:  The Novus Ordo mass and church is a much watered-down service of the original Latin Mass and service.    They say it all changed in the '60s.    The traditionalists (trad Catholics) say the Novus Ordo is infiltration of "protestants" to the church back when they passed Vatican 2 in the late '60s.     "Trads" do not consider the new church valid and they don't even believe that Bergoglio is the Pope.    I can't explain it all but if you google "novus ordo catholic church" a few good articles and explanation will pop up.  Me, I go to both services and consider both valid but I think the traditional way is more serious and reverent.   

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19 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

One errant or misunderstood part of the lady's teaching though. She mentions tithes or tithing. Tithing is misunderstood often and can be used to make money for large religious organizations and individual  already wealthy people instead of being used to help poor people. Tithing is NOT required in the New Testament. This was only practiced in the Old Testament under the Jewish religion. Here they mixed faith in God with their political authority. Jesus Christ spoke against this often as these people were not service oriented like Jesus wanted people to be. Instead they wanted power, authority and perhaps even worship of themselves. Here is an example of this with the first usage of tithe or tithing in the New Testament. 

Here is the NIV version. This version does not use the word tithe. However, obviously the same Greek word for tithe. The NIV simply describes the corruption and greed more of using tithing to gain religious authority and perhaps also using it to make money instead of helping the poor. The word "greed" is used in verse 25.

 

Hey Mark, I agree with you 100% on this subject.

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Possibly the main divide in the RCC now is the  "traditional" vs "Novo Ordus" stuff.  One thing I've noticed with the new stuff, besides "charismatic Catholics", is both an increase in involvement of the laity (the everyday churchgoers)  and an increase in involvement in and of Franciscan orders (of which there are several.)   I see those as overlapping.  When I was in contact with a parish in NYC where the laity was very active, involved, and fun to be around, I joked about their parish possibly ruffling a few feathers.  One of the lay-leaders told me, matter-of-factly, that this was a Franciscan parish, so involvement was encouraged. 

I don't have real problems with "trads" other than to say that I think the new guys are, in at least some cases, pillars of their local communities, and genuinely helping those in need (with food and other necessities as well as job assistance.)   I grew up with a "trad" RCC parish, and the thing felt PONDEROUS.  It didn't seem to affect its community beyond the reach of sound during held masses.  Granted, they had a parochial school, which was a real benefit to the families who sent their kids there,  but otherwise it seemed fine ignoring the community and vice versa.  The aloof arrogance, frankly, wasn't a bad preparation for the aloof arrogance of twi.

It should not be a terrible shock that "novo ordus" stuff and "charismatics" are correlated.  If it's all real, then God's working with the people who actually care and want to help. If it's all just religion and sociology, then the "charismatic" stuff won't be embraced by the old guard and will be embraced by the new-  precisely because of who they both are, and it will help form a demarcation between the two. 

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