Socks- You are absolutely right when you say our relationship with God must be 24/7 and we have that priveledge of
communicating with God as christians who are living in the post resurrection of Christ era.
I must point out though the bible versions wwe have got a lot of errors in translation including the KJV which is notorious
Just because wthe KJV tells you what has been added by way of italics doesnt mean you can trust it
This is the reason for 2 Timothy 2:15
We normally decide what is true by what we think is the correct interpetation of scriptures based on the material
supplied by a particular version not realising that maybe there are translation errors (in ths case I think you are using
KJV. Am i correct?
In addition I would like to ask you a couple of questions:
(1) Are you saying then that the Law has been abolished?
(2) Are you saying the Jews can have one way of doing things and the Gentiles
need not follow- the Gentiles can do their own thing
I missed this first time around - I use a range of tools for study.
Versions of the Bible -
print = KJV, ASV, Amplified, Bullinger's Companion Bible (mostly for referencing the structure schematas) I have a few others I don't use as much.
Digital - several as part of some software I use, including KJV, ASV, Amplified and a few others.
I've been getting into the biblical greek and hebrew study since about 1970 and have done some course work in it since the WC 4, where I was introduced to the basics of it through some class work given by Walter Cummins of the Way Nash. I came into that program pretty versed in Bullinger's "how to enjoy the bible" regimen that encouraged reading it, and using basic tools to read and study with - Young's and Strong's concordance, as well as the usual basic historical and geographical over lays, I think Easton was my go to for a long time, not sure what I use now, I found that both online bible and biblegateway have a good range of resources and there's a lot of others of course. I also have an older greek interlinear bible and some other study books, I don't use them all the time or even much of the time, as I have quite a few notes on work I've done over the years. I went through a period of reading when I realized that while I said I "believed the Bible was the Word of God" I hadn't actually read it all cover to cover. I have now.
So you know where I'm coming from this might help - I did a brief but tight study on John 1:1 and a series of related verses many years ago, and I used some of the work that VPW had done in his book Jesus Christ is Not God, and I did book end studies positing "He is" and "He isn't" and using the same exact material I was able to make a decent case for both sides of the argument based on the word studies. I did it at the time so I'd understand both sides of it, having been raised on Catholicism trinitarian doctrine which is mostly a theological and philosophical position and not really a doctrinal point drawn from any one part of the earliest scripture. Anyway, the basic research greek studies could go either way - understanding Jesus Christ, the Son of God and what that means is more than an exercise in language. Language is important of course - but ultimately if we're using ancient documents in ancient languages - and we are - then there will needs be translation and indeed, transliteration which will ultimately require an interpretation. Every one doing that kind of work is admonished to not make that interpretation one of their own choosing, but an interpretation will need to be made to get the message to anyone today. VPW stood staunchly against that very idea yet he did it himself in the PFAL series and he knew that of course but he rebranded his work.
Once I understood that I became much less concerned about solving anyone else's problems, I focused on my own and my own understanding, to the end that hopefully I would then be better equipped to be of real service to those I speak and help.
I don't believe that Jesus Christ is, literally, God, for what that's worth. But I have much better understanding now of how people both blindly accept that as well as get to that conclusion and why it would be important to them because as I'm sure we both know - our fellow man is hurting and in need of help. When people are literally saved from their worst fears and the living death this life can become through Jesus Christ, they don't need or want a dictionary to see who He is, they know exactly who He is.
Anyway - file this under TMI. : ))) Short answer - a few.
I think that states my understanding and thoughts on it, from the "bottom line", WW.
It would account for the shift of days over history, too. As Christianity moved away from it's "homeland" of the middle east and the roots of Jewish history and religious practice days could certainly shift, Saturday to Sunday, to Wednesday, to any day of the week for that matter. There really doesn't appear to be a clear order for the new church to maintain their past religious practices over time. I don't put a lot of weight on what they DIDN'T tell the Gentiles if the idea is they didn't because it would already be known or an assumed practice, because if they were Gentiles like ME, they wouldn't have known ANYthing about any of it.
One of the things that strikes me about the way the revelation of Christ and the understanding of it developed is that it .... seems .... like it ended up requiring the passage of time and events in order for it to be fully hmmm...."realized" by the Church. I mean - while under the direct immersion of the Jewish faith, near or in Jerusalem, surrounded by history of the Jews any move into a "new" body of called out believers would naturally be influenced by the Jewish roots as you're pointing out WW. It only makes sense. Then that changed in ways that perhaps they never envisioned - Constantine converting? Roman prominence in the establishment of the new church? There were some unprecedented events that moved it away from being a persecuted cult to being essentially a state religion of Rome. Some baggage came with that and not all the changes over time were good but it DID under score the essential basics of Christ and in ways that it would have been difficult to embrace in the years or Peter and Paul. I think that adds to the incredible insight they DID get and their ability to change according to what they believed God was showing them.
Many of the things that Paul reproved and instructed the Corinthian church on correcting read very much like the kinds of things that could develop in a social and political caste system that moved away from the fundamentals.of Christ, the servant leader, Messiah and emphasized seniority, heritage, position, etc.
waxit, I think you make some very good points and we'd probably meet in the middle - if you go with Saturday over Sunday there's a basis for that just as there could be for Sunday over Saturday. Whatever the Jewish history was would certainly have a place of prominence because it's the history up until Christ. The coming of the Messiah formed a new era, one that was not anticipated as it came to be in the form of the "church" of the called out followers of Jesus Christ.
Guys, let's stick to the sabbath day ordained by God- the subject in question is being obedient to God's 4th commandment
in the 10 commandments. There was a specific day that God had appointed for collective teaching, fellowship, worship and rest
- the 7th day so let's not theorise- it maybe this day or that day
One thing is for sure- the early christians were taught directly the apostles who were directly taught by Jesus Christ
I believe the apostles of Jesus Christ would never deviate from what the Lord taught them to do. Do you agree with that?
Acts 2:42 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
These were not only jews but jews and gentiles.
Someone pointed out that when the gentiles became christians they automatically adopted the "sabbath" of the
jews. How is it then the "gentiles" didn't automatically adopt the "circumcision"?
I am sure you will agree that Paul had such a tough time with his ministry to the gentile christians especially the corinthians in continuing in the
"apostles doctrines" . These gentile converts were still of the old mindset prior to their conversion and if sunday or any other day were an option
for collective teaching and worship (weekly gathering) don't you think they would have taken it?
(For instance: Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled,
and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well.
Why was there no contention regarding the day of sabbath observance as in circumcision - because the "apostles doctrine"
specified the seventh day sabbath and the gentiles coudnt argue against that.
Jesus Christ observed the sabbath (He was Lord of the Sabaath) and the apostles also observed the sabbath
The pharisees who were always busy with their intelligencia trying to find fault with what Jesus Christ and
His disciples so they could accuse Him.
So if Jesus Christ or His followers were observing any other day except the 7th day Sabbath- dont you think they would have
been all over Him. It was always what His disciples did on the sabbath not whether they kept the sabbath
If that was not enough proof of the 7th day Sabbath mandated by God in Exodus 20
Consider this fact for over 400 years from the time of the early christian church, there was
no historical evidence of christians, of any jew or gentile anywhere ever observing any other day
except the 7th day sabbath which corresponds to our present day saturday. Why is that?
Please read Romes Challenge to the Protestants to see how sunday came into being and
why satan through the rc church persecuted christians for observing the 7th day sabbath
The same weekly 7th day sabbath observed by Jesus Christ and His followers was continued
without a break. The Sabbath of Exodus 20. If there was one thing the jews did right in spite of
all their "traditions of edlers", it is to ensure they got the sabbath right
This same practice was continued by the apostles week in and week out.
God knew about the changes that will take place with the introduction of the gregoran calendar which is inaccurate
and that's why God gave the jews the calculated hebrew calendar
The sabbath has been calculated as our present day saturday
Not "all Christians," Waxit. All Israelites (ie, not just Judeans or "Jews") - yes. All Christians - no.
Can you tell us why this issue (above all issues) is important to you? I ask, because there are so many other things we've discussed here at the Café that appear more relevant to our daily lives.
Hi Twinky
The 10 commandments also applies to -born again christians (true christians) as Spiritual Israelites
We who believe by faith as the spiritual seed of Abraham are the israel of God if we obey all the commandments
of God
True christians represent Spiritual Israel
Galatians 3:29 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed,(Spiritual Israel) and heirs according to the promise.
True Christians are Jews inwardly in heart and spirit
Romans 2:29 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit,
and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (when we keep the traditions of men (sunday)
we are accepted of men but when we keep the commandments of God, we get God's approval (one of them is 7th day sabbath
kept with the right heart and attitude)
The issue of keeping the sabbath and he holy days of God is the framework upon which God's plan for
the salvation of mankind is based upon.
We have a carnal nature- selfish, sinful that tries to out rationalise God's commandments into not doing them
The intellectuals and the learned people during the time of the crucifixion thought it foolishness for Christ to die
on the cross for us and so in the same way we think it doesnt make sense for God to insist on the 7th day sabbath.
Why can it not be any day- a day which is convenient after all it's the heart that matters, isn't it? Well God wants both heart and obedience
to His commandments. Those who obey will be blessed
So God's says in:
Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith theLord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts
If you like, I can try and make arrangements for you to read and check out a book called God's plan for mankind based on an in depth study
of the bible which opened my spiritual eyes. I understood why it was so important to God.
This book is free of charge - it doesn't cost $100 like the pfalafel class
True Christians in the dark ages were peresecuted by satan through the rc church for keeping the 7th day sabbath
Do you love Jesus Christ? I am sure you do but what is the proof that you truly love Jesus Christ
This is what Jesus Christ said in John 14:15 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments (plural all the commandments of God- the whole word of God including the 7th day sabbath
with the right heart and attitude)
Waxit has primarily quoted from the Old Testament, while ignoring much of the New Testament. Does Waxit ever read from the writings of the apostle Paul? Paul was the teacher who wrote the most books of New Testament writings. Luke, the gentile physician, worked with and learned from Paul and perhaps wrote the most words content of the New Testament. In perhaps large part this was due to Luke's Gentile background, while knowing the Greek language well. Koine Greek was the number one most shared language of the world in the first century. The only verses from the New Testament that Waxit quotes from is only in part, while adding his mindset., for example his partial quote from John 14:15, while not reading the answer of the question presented to Jesus regarding "the great commendment in the law".
Quote
Matt 22:36-40 36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" 37 Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." NKJV
Socks your understanding and your spiritual mindset looks very good to me. Regarding Jesus Christ and the question of do I believe he is God? What I tell people when I get asked this question. Jesus Christ is not literally God. He is instead literally the "son of God" with many verses that show this. Even more verses say that Jesus Christ is the "son of man", especially verses quoted from Jesus Christ. In comparison to Jesus Christ calling himself the "son of God", he called himself in his earthly life the "son of man" much more than calling himself the "son of God". This showed his humility and relationship to regular humanity or mankind. I follow this with saying that Jesus Christ is like God, while now being seated at the right hand of God making intercession for the saints or his followers. God his Father has given Jesus Christ all authority so that all the salvation of mankind is under the authority of Jesus Christ. I might even quote from 1 Corinthians chapter 15. When Jesus Christ finally reaches his goal of all or everything under His lordship or rulership, then Jesus Christ will turn back this authority to God his Father, so that God "may be all in all".
Quote
1 Corinthians 15:20-28 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. NIV
Waxit has primarily quoted from the Old Testament, while ignoring much of the New Testament. Does Waxit ever read from the writings of the apostle Paul? Paul was the teacher who perhaps wrote the most New Testament writings. Luke, the gentile physician, worked with and learned from Paul and perhaps wrote the 2nd most content of the New Testament. The only verses from the New Testament that Waxit quotes from is only in part, while adding his mindset., for example his partial quote from John 14:15, while not reading the answer of the question presented to Jesus regarding "the great commendment in the law".
I won’t attempt to answer your question, Mark – but I did look into the book Waxit referred to in his reply to Twinky – “If you like, I can try and make arrangements for you to read and check out a book called God's plan for mankind based on an in depth study of the bible which opened my spiritual eyes. I understood why it was so important to God.”
here is a portion from the above "The Importance of the Sabbath":
“Now let’s go to Hebrews 4, and let’s understand something concerning the Old Testament. We’re going to make this just a little bit different today. We’re going to answer some of the questions that some of the difficulties people are bringing up are related in some of the things that we cover here. Hebrews 4:4, now we’re going to come back to Hebrews 4 and look at it a little later because we are going to see that one of the major teachings of Jesus Christ did in fact, have to do with the Sabbath day and with your capacity to work and with your capacity to eat and drink, verse 2, Hebrews 4: “For truly, we have had the gospel preached to us, even as they also did…” Who is he talking about? The children of Israel. So they had the gospel preached unto them in the form that God gave that to them. “…but the preaching of the word did not profit them because it was not mixed with faith in those who heard.” So they had the gospel preached to them as well. What is this telling us? This is telling us that the gospel includes both what is known as the Old Testament and the New Testament, does it not? Yes, indeed it surely, surely does.”
Maybe it’s just me – but after reading both articles on the Sabbath, with the lack of comprehensiveness and thoroughness neither article impresses me as being an in-depth study of the Bible – but I guess that’s a matter of opinion depending on one’s idea of what is in-depth. I think the author (Fred Coulter) is selective in his references (cherry picking) , and ignores anypassages that do not agree with his viewpoint – as you (Mark ) pointed out by Waxit's lack or little use of referencing the writings of the Apostle Paul…Another thing I find confusing and a misrepresentation is how the author defines “the gospel” – saying “the gospel includes both what is known as the Old Testament and the New Testament,”…well, I don’t want to derail this thread – but in Christianity the term “the gospel” or "good news" usually refers to the story of Jesus Christ's birth, life, death, and resurrection.
Please excuse my post if I have been mistaken in the book Waxit was referring to.
Hi T-Bone. You write in a very polite way. I simply edited my post regarding the writings of Paul the apostle and Luke, the Gentile physician. Here is the part that I edited as I did the research.
Quote
Paul was the teacher who wrote the most books of New Testament writings. Luke, the gentile physician, worked with and learned from Paul and perhaps wrote the most words content of the New Testament. In perhaps large part this was due to Luke's Gentile background, while knowing the Greek language well. Koine Greek was the number one most shared language of the world in the first century..
We who believe by faith as the spiritual seed of Abraham are the israel of God if we obey all the commandments of God
Ah, no, we aren't the "spiritual seed" if we obey as you state. What's your chapter and verse on your proposition?
And don't forget, Abraham was born and died waaaay before Moses was even a twinkle in his dad's eye, never mind the time when he was given the ten commandments. Abraham is "pre-law" or "patriarchal" (for those who are into "dispensations"). Therefore, you can't say that Abraham "obeyed the law" as it was later written down. Obeyed different (unwritten) laws, maybe. We can't know what, with precision.
Hi T-Bone. You write in a very polite way. I simply edited my post regarding the writings of Paul the apostle and Luke, the Gentile physician. Here is the part that I edited as I did the research.
Understood – thanks for elaborating on your editing, Mark.
I’m still comfortable with my emphasis on Paul’s writings though. More so than other New Testament authors just because of the length and comprehensiveness of Paul's documents - I’m sometimes reminded of how Jesus Christ in the Gospels would also reinterpret application-wise some stuff from the Old Testament. Theologically speaking, I think Paul’s writings are some of the most crucial documents for an understanding of how we got from there to here (from the Old Testament / law stuff to the New Testament / the Christian way of life)…brings to mind a cool book I read a few years ago Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free by F.F. Bruce....here is a partial quote from Amazon’s description of the book: “explores the primary themes in Paul's thought as they developed in the historical context of his life and travels”
Edited by T-Bone my primary theme seems to be revision...guess I'm a revisionist
Ah, no, we aren't the "spiritual seed" if we obey as you state. What's your chapter and verse on your proposition?
And don't forget, Abraham was born and died waaaay before Moses was even a twinkle in his dad's eye, never mind the time when he was given the ten commandments. Abraham is "pre-law" or "patriarchal" (for those who are into "dispensations"). Therefore, you can't say that Abraham "obeyed the law" as it was later written down. Obeyed different (unwritten) laws, maybe. We can't know what, with precision.
Ah, no, we aren't the "spiritual seed" if we obey as you state. What's your chapter and verse on your proposition?
The below verse was staring at you and I dont know why you didnt pick it up
Galatians 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Tell me as gentiles can we be Abraham's physical seed. No obviously so what kind of a seed is it talking about
in Galatians 3:29??? Obviously spiritual seed.
What I am discussing, you already know- I am just going through the steps so you can see the connection
between obedience as a result of believing faith and being a spiritual seed of Abraham
Are you in Christ? - If you are (you must check with the word of God if you really are) and if you are then you are the spiritual seed of Abraham?
How are you in Christ? Is it a matter of being born into the christ lineage physically Of course not
God the Father begat as sons and daughters spiritually through Jesus Christ resurresction
when we confessed and obeyed
Part 1- Confession and Acceptance
Rom 10: 9 & 10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine
heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
What does it mean to confess and accept Jesus Christ as Lord?
In this case you give unreserved and total obedience to the Lordship of Jesus Christ
and obey His commandments and his teachings. Jesus Christ is also Lord of the Sabbath
The pharisees were physical seed of Abraham but they are not the spiritual seed because
Why?? Because they did not obey all the commandments of God -sinned and in reality were the servants
of satan and preferred to
strictly enforce their own" traditions of the elders" which is man made-
Keeping sabbath on sunday (1st day of
the week is also man made- started by the rc church which God never commanded.
Do not confuse me and the people who obey the commandment of sabbath keeping with legalistic
pharasaical jews who have a ridiculous amount of rubbish "traditions from the elders -they are whited sepulchres
look good on the outside and rotten on the inside
The modern day orthodox jews even go to the extent of staying close to their synagogues
so its within walking distance and they dont need to use their cars on sabbath
You said that by keeping the sabbath, you wont be able to go for a drive. Who said that?
Tell me, would you consider pressing the gas pedal of your car to be hard laborious work?
So why couldnt you go for a restful drive . How do you think the sabbath keepers today (spiritual seed of Abraham)
go to their church building. We dont walk for 10 miles, we drive there
Secondly what's the go with - if you havent work 6 full days then you cannot keep the sabbath properly
I dont know how you worked that out.
So if that's the case, you mean to say old widows and disabled people will not be able to keep the sabbath???
Your logic whatever it is, doesn't make sense does it?
Exodus 20:8-10
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of theLordthy God
Where does it say in the above sabbath verses, that you have to work 6 full days
Before you can properly keep the 7th day as a sabbath
What God is saying is if it is understood properly is:
You have 6 whole days to do whatever work you want to do or need to do
Reserve the 7th day for me as a sabbath for resting and collective worship,teaching
and fellowship and as you correctly pointed out that sabbath is from sunset (evening)
to the next sunset (next evening)
Part 2 - Fullfilling God's greatest commandment by loving God with all your heart and being in Christ
(spiritual seed of Abraham) requires obedience
1 John 5:
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep ( The greek word here for keep is Teromen translates
to "actively performing meaning obeying to do) his commandments (including the sabbath): and his commandments(including the sabbath)
are not grievous (example allowed to go for a leisurely drive)
When we are in Christ, it is a spiritual thing- it's spirit based
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
and we activatate this relationship of being in Christ and so being the spiritual seed of Abraham
by being obedient to Jesus Christ and God's commandments because we love God, and we delight in Christ.
How are we going to be in Christ if we do not know him and how are we going to know him if we don't keep His commandments
1 John 2:4 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin,
we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep (obey) his commandments.
Notice the difference below of just giving lip service and being truly in Christ as our Lord
obedience is required
Luke 6
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say (by implication what he stands for)
In essence Jesus is pointing out that it is pointless calling Him Lord if they are not willing to keep
God's commandments. Jesus Christ said, He and the Father are one and whatever tells him He does.
So don't you think by implication Jesus Christ as the Son of God would have commanded the 10 commandments
He goes way beyond the 10 commandments by bringing in the beautitudes to live our lives by
Twinky, it looks like you do selective reading. Maybe you are very tired and dont have the time or energy to see how it
all fits together. Some of the thigs learnt in the p-falafel class (even if most of the material was plargiarised by some clown psing as Doctor of Theology)
some of them are good biblical principles. Precept up precept , line upon line to see how it all fits together and see the whole picture
So don't do a microscopic witch hunt to shoot me down but instead if you follow the sequence as shown in the bible, you will
see how the keeping of the sabbath along with the rest of the commandments fits in with God's plan of salvation
The problem with most christians is that they miss out on God's plan for salvation by ignoring a very important
commandment of God (7th day sabbath)
Your quote:
And don't forget, Abraham was born and died waaaay before Moses was even a twinkle in his dad's eye, never mind the time when he was given the ten commandments. Abraham is "pre-law" or "patriarchal" (for those who are into "dispensations"). Therefore, you can't say that Abraham "obeyed the law" as it was later written down. Obeyed different (unwritten) laws, maybe. We can't know what, with precision
In regards to pre law, pre mosaic, whatever you may want to call it- dispensations old vw stuff
which he mesmerised us with- we must be careful to get good valid stuff out of that stinks -vw used
fancy terminology like dispensation to build up to what he wants you and me to believe. Let's not go down that track
Obedience doesnt have to be just a written command, if it can be proven. The word of God is also written in the stars
Every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God whether it is spoken or written is a law or commandment
(when it says do this or don't do this)
Luke 4:4
4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God
What's the word of God?- It is the will of God- What's the "will" of God? It's the laws and commandments of God
So it doesnt matter that God formally gave the 10 commandments 400 odd years after Abraham to Moses-
God's word is law -spoken or written, it is law.The whole of creation is sustained by God's laws and commandments
Genesis 1:3-5
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
The law formally given to Moses- doesnt mean it is any less significant before the time of Moses.
The law was already there from Genesis being witnessed by the angels .
Deut 30:10 1 10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of theLordthy God,(spoken) to keep (obey) his commandments
and his statutes which are written in this book of the law and if thou turn unto theLordthy
God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul., and if thou turn unto theLordthy God
with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:19 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death,
blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
When God speaks the whole of nature listens and heaven and earth and the angels are witnesses
of the laws and commandments of God
If obedience legally is something that can only be adhered to only if it is in written form
then Adam & Eve might have a good case against God for driving them out of the garden of Eden
Adam would go something like this "God, I heard you loud and clear and it was very clear
to me when you told me' The day you eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
you will surel die" . Aha - but you didnt give that commandment to me in writing so please reverse
that decision to drive us out of the grden of Eden"
As for Abraham not obeying the law- Read Genesis thoroughly and you will see that it was because
Abraham believed and obeyed God's voice directly (The word of God) it was accounted to him for righteousness
It is the same with us who choose to believe God's word (The bible- The word of God) and obey that's why we are
called the spiritual seed of Abraham because we are following the example of Abraham - once he understood what
God's commandment was - He chose to believe and obey. He didnt question the validity when he was to leave
his pagan family. He didnt question God when he was to offer his only son tht he loved as a sacrifice to God.
He obeyed the great God of the universe knowing that God knows what he is doing and the outcome would be
the best one and believed God that in the end somehow he would be blessed for obeying God that God had him
covered. This is believing faith and he was greatly blessed by God
The word of God is the will of God - It is witnessed by heaven and earth and the angels
The whole bible is about Jesus Christ who is the word of God and the word of God musy be treated
with the utomost respect (fear of God) for God's sovereignity
Yes! I can say Abraham did obey the laws and commandments of God and it doesnt make an iota of difference
whether it was given by direct revelation or in written form. Satan cannot argue because the word of God
is also in written form. Jesus Christ when he was tempted in the wilderness said "it is written"
Ok you say we dont know with certainity what Abraham obeyed in regards to God's commandments
so what do you say to this:
Genesis 26
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice (God's direct word), and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Abraham obeyed all of God's commandments including the sabbath. There's no doubt about that
You must also understand that the people of God were already observing the sabbath right from day one
even before it was given in written form to Moses etched in stone tablets
Exodus 20:
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
This is the first mention of sabbath as instructed by God through Moses
So why would God ask them to "remember to keep the sabbath" if it was a new thing and never heard of or practised before
Go figure
Because it was already being practised right down from Adam & Eve through Noah through Abraham
God nailed it on stone tablets officially during the time of Moses. So it doesnt mean God has to give it to you
in writing before it becomes a law or commandment. It becomes a law or commandment when God speaks it
We are not not talking about the british parliament or the american senate.
This is God's word we are are talking about and it is written in the stars
Romans 4:5
5 But to him that worketh not, (we cannot be saved by our own works- salvation is a gift of God through Jesus Christ- that's true)
but believeth on him that ( but our believing and obeying God's commandments as Abraham did- obedience is the natural consequence of believing faith) James 1:22 justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (God is able to impute righteousness to us in Christ because of our believing faith in the whole word of God as he did for Abraham)
Revelation 22:
14 Blessed are they that do (obey) his commandmentssss (plural includes 7th day sabbath keeping)
that they may have right to the tree of life,
and may enter in through the gates into the city. (excludes fake christianity- people who want to do what they think is right and what is convenient for them. When Abraham was asked to get out of
his comfort zone where his kindred was, it must have been inconvenient for
him but he chose to obey God- Now he's called the father of faithful and the spiritual
seed of Abraham by God's decree are those who follow his example of believing faith
(i.e obedience)
Waxit has primarily quoted from the Old Testament, while ignoring much of the New Testament. Does Waxit ever read from the writings of the apostle Paul? Paul was the teacher who wrote the most books of New Testament writings. Luke, the gentile physician, worked with and learned from Paul and perhaps wrote the most words content of the New Testament. In perhaps large part this was due to Luke's Gentile background, while knowing the Greek language well. Koine Greek was the number one most shared language of the world in the first century. The only verses from the New Testament that Waxit quotes from is only in part, while adding his mindset., for example his partial quote from John 14:15, while not reading the answer of the question presented to Jesus regarding "the great commendment in the law".
If you follow my bible verse quotes in it's entirety Mark- you will see I heavily quote from the new testament
The mind set that sabbath is for the ole testament is what I believe is making you think I am just quoting from
the old testament. The whole word of God must be taken into account.
The new testament is hidden in the old testament and the old testament is revealed in the new testament
Twinky, it looks like you do selective reading. Maybe you are very tired and dont have the time or energy to see how it
all fits together. Some of the thigs learnt in the p-falafel class (even if most of the materia was plargiarised by some clown)
are good biblical principles. Precept up precept , line upon line to see how it all fits together and see the whole picture
instead of doing a microscopic witch hunt
I think I'm done with this conversation. There is no need to be insulting just because someone presents a different and well-thought-out view.
Waxit says the following with his mindset of mentioning Abraham. In reality Abraham is not part of the book of Revelation. He is not mentioned in this prophetic book. Instead this figurative book mentions the lamb of God, a phrase used to describe Jesus Christ, while following him.
Quote
Revelation 22:
14 Blessed are they thatdo (obey)his commandmentssss (plural includes 7th day sabbath keeping)
that they may haveright to the tree of life,
and may enter in through the gates into the city. (excludes fake christianity- people who want to do what they think is right
and what is convenient for them. When Abraham was asked to get out of
his comfort zone where his kindred was, it must have been inconvenient for
him but he chose to obey God- Now he's called the father of faithful and the spiritual
seed of Abraham by God's decree are those who follow his example of believing faith
(i.e obedience)
Here information from the book of Revelation from an article that I have written titled "End Times When Jesus Christ Reigns Supreme". One of my goals is to write and get a biblical book published.
The question is what is the “Lamb’s book of life” and who is part of this? The Lamb’s book of life represents Jesus Christ and those who follow him. Only good or pure will enter into this and this is through following Jesus Christ. Next we have verses which show the free will of humanity. The choice being given to humanity of doing good or right or not doing good. In a favorable way, I see this as the followers of Jesus Christ being fully persuaded in heart to have the mindset of Jesus Christ. This is through learning about Jesus Christ in a favorable positive way and believing in Jesus Christ as Lord.
Revelations 22:10-11
10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. 11 Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”
NIV
Next we have more symbolic language of those who wash their robes. This shows that those who change from bad to good through Jesus Christ will be able to go through the gates into the city. However, outside of what he thought as the New Jerusalem John still saw those who were bad with him comparing them to dogs. Dogs are seen favorably today, but during the first century before dogs were trained to be good, dogs were symbolically seen as bad. However, just like dogs have been trained today to be good in nations like the United States. In the future under Jesus Christ more and more of humanity will be retrained to be good and followers of Christ. Then and only then will they be able to enter in through the gates into the city that represents the savior Jesus Christ. However, as read in Revelation 21:24-26, even nations or large groups of people will change, follow Jesus Christ and be able to come in through the gates. And the gates will never be shut.
Revelation 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb: that they may have a right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
15 Without are dogs, and sorcerers, and unchaste, and murderers, and servers of idols, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie.
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition
What John saw was the free will ability to do good or not do good. In order to go through the gates into the city of salvation with eternal life, being a follower of Jesus Christ with his mindset is required. People that are bad and evil will or would need to make a major change. However, Paul who made a very large change from being hateful while perhaps being the main persecutor of the followers of Jesus Christ to being the main and most informative teacher of the New Testament saw the change that Jesus Christ could make with all of humanity. Even the ones like he was before he became a follower of Jesus Christ. For more details on this subject read the chapter titled, “The Salvation of Humanity Through Jesus Christ”.
Twinky, it looks like you do selective reading. Maybe you are very tired and dont have the time or energy to see how it
all fits together. Some of the thigs learnt in the p-falafel class (even if most of the materia was plargiarised by some clown)
are good biblical principles. Precept up precept , line upon line to see how it all fits together and see the whole picture
instead of doing a microscopic witch hunt
I totally agree with Twinky's response to this rudeness from Waxit: "There is no need to be insulting just because someone presents a different and well-thought-out view."
Waxit, it seems you've again missed the point. You're not "right just because you said so." You have to make an argument that makes sense. "even if most of the materia[L] (sic) was plagiarized by some clown" doesn't make your case/argument. There are plenty of possible reasons/causes why the "precepts" in the P-falafel class may not be good biblical principles.
Examples thereof are well explained in Charlene's book, Undertow.
I think I'm done with this conversation. There is no need to be insulting just because someone presents a different and well-thought-out view.
You get offended too easily and I honestly didnt mean to be insulting. I share a lot of information and it takes up a lot of time
to go through the maze of information i present
I know people will not agree with me on everything and I share the truth knowing that people will have their own opinions.
But i share them anyway regardless because God said hold forth the truth-
God said i dont hold you responsible for how people will react but only that you reach out to people in love
I speak the truth in love and sometimes I get misunderstood (Satan will ensure that happens so they walk away from the truth)
I am hoping people will see the significance of the 7th day sabbath in the plan of salvation and God will give them even greater
revelations of the word of God
But if you want to stop the conversation and coming to grips with the 7th day sababth and why it is so important
because you think that I am insulting, I apologise for that because that was never my intention. I brought about a point
so you can see that you might be on the wrong track and it runs contrary to what God wants.
I respect your wishes and if you have any questions that you think I might have a point dont let this misunderstanding
stop you from asking questions or discussing further- Also note there is a chance that I might have misunderstood you
no hard feelings
I asked you this question (among others) and await your response.
On 4/8/2020 at 6:28 PM, Twinky said:
Can you tell us why this issue (above all issues) is important to you? I ask, because there are so many other things we've discussed here at the Café that appear more relevant to our daily lives.
It appears to me that you are missing the point, in a big way.
Mt 23:23
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
I think you're busy focussing on the "letter of the law" and forgetting the more important matters: justice, mercy and faithfulness (so Jesus says). But those are, in fact, the details of life that I focus on.
May I have your answer, please, to the question I put to you on 8 April?
I asked you this question (among others) and await your response.
It appears to me that you are missing the point, in a big way.
Mt 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
I think you're busy focussing on the "letter of the law" and forgetting the more important matters: justice, mercy and faithfulness (so Jesus says). But those are, in fact, the details of life that I focus on.
May I have your answer, please, to the question I put to you on 8 April?
Hi Twinky
I will definitely answer your question.
Correct me if I am wrong?- you are saying I am "majoring in the minor things and minoring in the major things"
in the mould of the pharisees? Nothing is further from the truth
I am perfectly aware of the weightier things of the law- like mercy, justice,faithfullness and love which is really important.
You will notice that in Matt 23:23- In context it is not referring in any part in the whole of Matt 23 in regards to the sabbath
The Lord covered many things about the pride and the "holier than thou attitude and hypocrisy of the pharisees but there is
no reference to the keeping of the sabbath.
Never once has the Lord rebuked the pharisees for keeping the sabbath. He was righteously angry with the pharisees because
they wanted to accuse Jesus for healing on the sabbath and so he confronted them on "their letter of the law" attitude and lack of
love and mercy for the man with the withered man. I have said time and again God wants us to keep the 7th day sabbath with the right
heart and attitude so healing, love, mercy and all these things we must have 24/7
The keeping of the sabbath was never any issue with the Lord or the pharisees- only how it was kept where the pharisees showed their
true colours of hatred for Jesus Christ, lack of love, selfishness, pride and this is what Jesus Christ was confronting them on
I fully agree with you that love, mercy, justice, faithfullness is the very heart of God and that's something we must major in
But the verse that you quoted
in Matt 23:23 has got nothing to do with the keeping of the sabbath as explained above and it would be unfair to apply it to me
Ok! why is 7th day sabbath keeping so important in the plan of God for mankind's salvation??
It's a lengthy explanation and deserves a lot of thought and I dont think I can explain it in a few lines here on GSC
Also please dont have the mindset that keeping of sabbath is going to be burdensome -Refer to 1 John 5:3
What God says is always the truth. Would you agree with that?
Sabbath keeping is enjoyable a time dedicated to spending focussed time with God and rest
free of distractions and outside influences
Would you like to read "God's plan for mankind? It offers a more detailed explanation in answer to your question
and thoroughly researched from the word of God written by a christian minister who is now 80 yrs of age.
Dont read it all at one go- it will be too much- a little bit at a time- think about it and then continue and please pray
that God will give you spiritual insight as it will all click spiritually if you truly seek to find out why it's important to God
Only God can bring light in the way he can and give you the understanding that he would like for you to have.
That's what happened to me. John 8:32
Love, Mercy, Faithfullness falls within the framework of the 7th day Sabbath and God's Holy Days
God's plan for the salvation of mankind
(snip)... Would you like to read "God's plan for mankind? It offers a more detailed explanation in answer to your question
and thoroughly researched from the word of God written by a christian minister who is now 80 yrs of age.
Dont read it all at one go- it will be too much- a little bit at a time- think about it and then continue and please pray
that God will give you spiritual insight as it will all click spiritually if you truly seek to find out why it's important to God
Only God can bring light in the way he can and give you the understanding that he would like for you to have.
That's what happened to me. John 8:32
Love, Mercy, Faithfullness falls within the framework of the 7th day Sabbath and God's Holy Days
God's plan for the salvation of mankind
Much love in Christ
Waxit
Hi Waxit,
You’ll probably just ignore this – but I’ll say it anyway for the benefit of other readers…My impression thus far on this thread is that when there has been some disagreement about your viewpoint – you seem to sidestep the issue that others focus on and dismiss the relevancy and their reasoning of the biblical text that they bring up.
Just an observation here, your go-to means of defending your position lacks specificity and basically amounts to simply suggesting it’s based upon “biblical principles”, “the rightly-divided Word of truth” or the idea that not everything wierwille taught/plagiarized is rubbish – and now more recently you were recommending to someone that they read “God’s Plan for Mankind” – it seems to me your position is untenable. Your responses are often just cliches...And if indeed this book “God’s Plan for Mankind” that you refer to is the same one I had given a link to in my previous post ( - and again here is link ) - I am tempted to say you might have jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. In a previous post I gave a brief analysis of the 2 articles of "God's Plan for Mankind" on the Sabbath noting the author’s mangled use of Scripture and definitions…which brings to mind a book I’d like to recommend Scripture Twisting: 20 Ways the Cults Misread the Bible by James W. Sire .
Some of the ideas in the book will be familiar to folks who know stuff about logical fallacies .I’m not saying the author of "God’s Plan for Mankind" is a cult leader – but Sire’s book is helpful when determining if someone is (even unintentionally) distorting what the Bible actually says. While Jesus Christ as well as others in the Bible have warned of deceivers – perhaps it’s just as important to be aware of the possibility that we may even deceive ourselves:
“The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!" …Matthew 6:22, 23 NASB
That passage may very well refer to self-deception...If my idea of what is true - is actually wrong – but I think that it’s spiritual enlightenment – how great is that darkness! Perhaps a really effective cult leader is one who can convince followers that they’ve "seen the light" .
Others who have posted on this thread (and may differ from your angle) have put a lot of thought and hard work that reflects an intense personal and prayerful study of the Bible. Unless you’re just proselytizing to get others to read this guy’s book you might try being a bit more upfront and honest on this thread and offer more substance from your own personal "homework"…just a thought…
You get offended too easily and I honestly didnt mean to be insulting. I share a lot of information and it takes up a lot of time
to go through the maze of information i present
I know people will not agree with me on everything and I share the truth knowing that people will have their own opinions.
But i share them anyway regardless because God said hold forth the truth-
Tone deaf.
Waxit, there's a HUGE difference between discussion (these are discussion forums) and preaching AT people.
If you want to get serious about the Great Commission (ministry of reconciliation), you may want to do some research and reflection on the subject of emotional maturity.
It is NOT emotionally mature to start off what might be intended to be an apology for having insulted someone by criticizing that person for wrongly getting offended in the first place.
"Holding forth" the Word isn't something you necessarily get credit for doing if you act like you're in a vacuum.
You're (at least in theory) conversing with real, live, humans. People with feelings and attitudes. If you're going to reach them, you'll have to be able to recognize them as such and actually love them. That just might entail empathizing with them.
And that's even IF you have the correct take on what God intends to mean in and by the particular words you think you're holding forth.
But if you want to stop the conversation and coming to grips with the 7th day sababth and why it is so important
because you think that I am insulting, I apologise for that because that was never my intention. I brought about a point
so you can see that you might be on the wrong track and it runs contrary to what God wants.
Dude, do you think you get points from God for being "right" about anything?
Are you, by any chance, trying to make a case for joining a particular religious denomination (7th Day Adventists)?
How much have you considered, in your study of scriptures, what God wants YOU to do (other than "holding forth" your interpretation of what's the right way to understand the Bible)?
Btw, I don't need your answers, all three questions are rhetorical.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
60
71
80
156
Popular Days
May 24
27
Apr 23
25
Apr 26
24
May 20
23
Top Posters In This Topic
Rocky 60 posts
T-Bone 71 posts
Twinky 80 posts
Waxit 156 posts
Popular Days
May 24 2020
27 posts
Apr 23 2020
25 posts
Apr 26 2020
24 posts
May 20 2020
23 posts
Popular Posts
Twinky
Right. The goal of the law is to get to know Jesus, the Christ. Get to know the Man, the King, the Shepherd, the Redeemer. The goal of the law IS NOT to get to observe any specific day, or time
WordWolf
"The thing though with you guys, it looks like in a clique, you are comfortable in protecting yourselves and when a new kid in the block comes is with something you don't like (which is quite clearl
WordWolf
Waxit: "The 7th day Sabbath was universally accepted by all and observed by both Jews,Gentiles and the apostles/leadership Acts 13: 42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the
socks
I missed this first time around - I use a range of tools for study.
Versions of the Bible -
print = KJV, ASV, Amplified, Bullinger's Companion Bible (mostly for referencing the structure schematas) I have a few others I don't use as much.
Digital - several as part of some software I use, including KJV, ASV, Amplified and a few others.
I've been getting into the biblical greek and hebrew study since about 1970 and have done some course work in it since the WC 4, where I was introduced to the basics of it through some class work given by Walter Cummins of the Way Nash. I came into that program pretty versed in Bullinger's "how to enjoy the bible" regimen that encouraged reading it, and using basic tools to read and study with - Young's and Strong's concordance, as well as the usual basic historical and geographical over lays, I think Easton was my go to for a long time, not sure what I use now, I found that both online bible and biblegateway have a good range of resources and there's a lot of others of course. I also have an older greek interlinear bible and some other study books, I don't use them all the time or even much of the time, as I have quite a few notes on work I've done over the years. I went through a period of reading when I realized that while I said I "believed the Bible was the Word of God" I hadn't actually read it all cover to cover. I have now.
So you know where I'm coming from this might help - I did a brief but tight study on John 1:1 and a series of related verses many years ago, and I used some of the work that VPW had done in his book Jesus Christ is Not God, and I did book end studies positing "He is" and "He isn't" and using the same exact material I was able to make a decent case for both sides of the argument based on the word studies. I did it at the time so I'd understand both sides of it, having been raised on Catholicism trinitarian doctrine which is mostly a theological and philosophical position and not really a doctrinal point drawn from any one part of the earliest scripture. Anyway, the basic research greek studies could go either way - understanding Jesus Christ, the Son of God and what that means is more than an exercise in language. Language is important of course - but ultimately if we're using ancient documents in ancient languages - and we are - then there will needs be translation and indeed, transliteration which will ultimately require an interpretation. Every one doing that kind of work is admonished to not make that interpretation one of their own choosing, but an interpretation will need to be made to get the message to anyone today. VPW stood staunchly against that very idea yet he did it himself in the PFAL series and he knew that of course but he rebranded his work.
Once I understood that I became much less concerned about solving anyone else's problems, I focused on my own and my own understanding, to the end that hopefully I would then be better equipped to be of real service to those I speak and help.
I don't believe that Jesus Christ is, literally, God, for what that's worth. But I have much better understanding now of how people both blindly accept that as well as get to that conclusion and why it would be important to them because as I'm sure we both know - our fellow man is hurting and in need of help. When people are literally saved from their worst fears and the living death this life can become through Jesus Christ, they don't need or want a dictionary to see who He is, they know exactly who He is.
Anyway - file this under TMI. : ))) Short answer - a few.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Waxit
Guys, let's stick to the sabbath day ordained by God- the subject in question is being obedient to God's 4th commandment
in the 10 commandments. There was a specific day that God had appointed for collective teaching, fellowship, worship and rest
- the 7th day so let's not theorise- it maybe this day or that day
One thing is for sure- the early christians were taught directly the apostles who were directly taught by Jesus Christ
I believe the apostles of Jesus Christ would never deviate from what the Lord taught them to do. Do you agree with that?
Acts 2:42
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
These were not only jews but jews and gentiles.
Someone pointed out that when the gentiles became christians they automatically adopted the "sabbath" of the
jews. How is it then the "gentiles" didn't automatically adopt the "circumcision"?
I am sure you will agree that Paul had such a tough time with his ministry to the gentile christians especially the corinthians in continuing in the
"apostles doctrines" . These gentile converts were still of the old mindset prior to their conversion and if sunday or any other day were an option
for collective teaching and worship (weekly gathering) don't you think they would have taken it?
(For instance: Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled,
and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well.
Why was there no contention regarding the day of sabbath observance as in circumcision - because the "apostles doctrine"
specified the seventh day sabbath and the gentiles coudnt argue against that.
Jesus Christ observed the sabbath (He was Lord of the Sabaath) and the apostles also observed the sabbath
The pharisees who were always busy with their intelligencia trying to find fault with what Jesus Christ and
His disciples so they could accuse Him.
So if Jesus Christ or His followers were observing any other day except the 7th day Sabbath- dont you think they would have
been all over Him. It was always what His disciples did on the sabbath not whether they kept the sabbath
If that was not enough proof of the 7th day Sabbath mandated by God in Exodus 20
Consider this fact for over 400 years from the time of the early christian church, there was
no historical evidence of christians, of any jew or gentile anywhere ever observing any other day
except the 7th day sabbath which corresponds to our present day saturday. Why is that?
Please read Romes Challenge to the Protestants to see how sunday came into being and
why satan through the rc church persecuted christians for observing the 7th day sabbath
The same weekly 7th day sabbath observed by Jesus Christ and His followers was continued
without a break. The Sabbath of Exodus 20. If there was one thing the jews did right in spite of
all their "traditions of edlers", it is to ensure they got the sabbath right
This same practice was continued by the apostles week in and week out.
God knew about the changes that will take place with the introduction of the gregoran calendar which is inaccurate
and that's why God gave the jews the calculated hebrew calendar
The sabbath has been calculated as our present day saturday
Romes Challenge to the Protestants.pdf
Edited by WaxitLink to comment
Share on other sites
Waxit
Hi Twinky
The 10 commandments also applies to -born again christians (true christians) as Spiritual Israelites
We who believe by faith as the spiritual seed of Abraham are the israel of God if we obey all the commandments
of God
True christians represent Spiritual Israel
Galatians 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed,(Spiritual Israel) and heirs according to the promise.
True Christians are Jews inwardly in heart and spirit
Romans 2:29
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit,
and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (when we keep the traditions of men (sunday)
we are accepted of men but when we keep the commandments of God, we get God's approval (one of them is 7th day sabbath
kept with the right heart and attitude)
The issue of keeping the sabbath and he holy days of God is the framework upon which God's plan for
the salvation of mankind is based upon.
We have a carnal nature- selfish, sinful that tries to out rationalise God's commandments into not doing them
The intellectuals and the learned people during the time of the crucifixion thought it foolishness for Christ to die
on the cross for us and so in the same way we think it doesnt make sense for God to insist on the 7th day sabbath.
Why can it not be any day- a day which is convenient after all it's the heart that matters, isn't it? Well God wants both heart and obedience
to His commandments. Those who obey will be blessed
So God's says in:
Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts
If you like, I can try and make arrangements for you to read and check out a book called God's plan for mankind based on an in depth study
of the bible which opened my spiritual eyes. I understood why it was so important to God.
This book is free of charge - it doesn't cost $100 like the pfalafel class
True Christians in the dark ages were peresecuted by satan through the rc church for keeping the 7th day sabbath
Do you love Jesus Christ? I am sure you do but what is the proof that you truly love Jesus Christ
This is what Jesus Christ said in John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments (plural all the commandments of God- the whole word of God including the 7th day sabbath
with the right heart and attitude)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
Waxit has primarily quoted from the Old Testament, while ignoring much of the New Testament. Does Waxit ever read from the writings of the apostle Paul? Paul was the teacher who wrote the most books of New Testament writings. Luke, the gentile physician, worked with and learned from Paul and perhaps wrote the most words content of the New Testament. In perhaps large part this was due to Luke's Gentile background, while knowing the Greek language well. Koine Greek was the number one most shared language of the world in the first century. The only verses from the New Testament that Waxit quotes from is only in part, while adding his mindset., for example his partial quote from John 14:15, while not reading the answer of the question presented to Jesus regarding "the great commendment in the law".
Edited by Mark SanguinettiLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
Socks your understanding and your spiritual mindset looks very good to me. Regarding Jesus Christ and the question of do I believe he is God? What I tell people when I get asked this question. Jesus Christ is not literally God. He is instead literally the "son of God" with many verses that show this. Even more verses say that Jesus Christ is the "son of man", especially verses quoted from Jesus Christ. In comparison to Jesus Christ calling himself the "son of God", he called himself in his earthly life the "son of man" much more than calling himself the "son of God". This showed his humility and relationship to regular humanity or mankind. I follow this with saying that Jesus Christ is like God, while now being seated at the right hand of God making intercession for the saints or his followers. God his Father has given Jesus Christ all authority so that all the salvation of mankind is under the authority of Jesus Christ. I might even quote from 1 Corinthians chapter 15. When Jesus Christ finally reaches his goal of all or everything under His lordship or rulership, then Jesus Christ will turn back this authority to God his Father, so that God "may be all in all".
Edited by Mark SanguinettiLink to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
I won’t attempt to answer your question, Mark – but I did look into the book Waxit referred to in his reply to Twinky – “If you like, I can try and make arrangements for you to read and check out a book called God's plan for mankind based on an in depth study of the bible which opened my spiritual eyes. I understood why it was so important to God.”
If this is the same book – I found it God's Plan for Mankind
and you can read the chapters online for free – like these articles on the Sabbath:
Sabbath the Sign of God
the importance of the Sabbath
here is a portion from the above "The Importance of the Sabbath":
“Now let’s go to Hebrews 4, and let’s understand something concerning the Old Testament. We’re going to make this just a little bit different today. We’re going to answer some of the questions that some of the difficulties people are bringing up are related in some of the things that we cover here. Hebrews 4:4, now we’re going to come back to Hebrews 4 and look at it a little later because we are going to see that one of the major teachings of Jesus Christ did in fact, have to do with the Sabbath day and with your capacity to work and with your capacity to eat and drink, verse 2, Hebrews 4: “For truly, we have had the gospel preached to us, even as they also did…” Who is he talking about? The children of Israel. So they had the gospel preached unto them in the form that God gave that to them. “…but the preaching of the word did not profit them because it was not mixed with faith in those who heard.” So they had the gospel preached to them as well. What is this telling us? This is telling us that the gospel includes both what is known as the Old Testament and the New Testament, does it not? Yes, indeed it surely, surely does.”
Maybe it’s just me – but after reading both articles on the Sabbath, with the lack of comprehensiveness and thoroughness neither article impresses me as being an in-depth study of the Bible – but I guess that’s a matter of opinion depending on one’s idea of what is in-depth. I think the author (Fred Coulter) is selective in his references (cherry picking) , and ignores any passages that do not agree with his viewpoint – as you (Mark ) pointed out by Waxit's lack or little use of referencing the writings of the Apostle Paul…Another thing I find confusing and a misrepresentation is how the author defines “the gospel” – saying “the gospel includes both what is known as the Old Testament and the New Testament,”…well, I don’t want to derail this thread – but in Christianity the term “the gospel” or "good news" usually refers to the story of Jesus Christ's birth, life, death, and resurrection.
Please excuse my post if I have been mistaken in the book Waxit was referring to.
Edited by T-Bonethis update just in
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
Hi T-Bone. You write in a very polite way. I simply edited my post regarding the writings of Paul the apostle and Luke, the Gentile physician. Here is the part that I edited as I did the research.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Ah, no, we aren't the "spiritual seed" if we obey as you state. What's your chapter and verse on your proposition?
And don't forget, Abraham was born and died waaaay before Moses was even a twinkle in his dad's eye, never mind the time when he was given the ten commandments. Abraham is "pre-law" or "patriarchal" (for those who are into "dispensations"). Therefore, you can't say that Abraham "obeyed the law" as it was later written down. Obeyed different (unwritten) laws, maybe. We can't know what, with precision.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Understood – thanks for elaborating on your editing, Mark.
I’m still comfortable with my emphasis on Paul’s writings though. More so than other New Testament authors just because of the length and comprehensiveness of Paul's documents - I’m sometimes reminded of how Jesus Christ in the Gospels would also reinterpret application-wise some stuff from the Old Testament. Theologically speaking, I think Paul’s writings are some of the most crucial documents for an understanding of how we got from there to here (from the Old Testament / law stuff to the New Testament / the Christian way of life)…brings to mind a cool book I read a few years ago Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free by F.F. Bruce....here is a partial quote from Amazon’s description of the book: “explores the primary themes in Paul's thought as they developed in the historical context of his life and travels”
Edited by T-Bonemy primary theme seems to be revision...guess I'm a revisionist
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Okay “guys”, have fun! Reality calls!
peace!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Waxit
Ah, no, we aren't the "spiritual seed" if we obey as you state. What's your chapter and verse on your proposition?
The below verse was staring at you and I dont know why you didnt pick it up
Galatians 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Tell me as gentiles can we be Abraham's physical seed. No obviously so what kind of a seed is it talking about
in Galatians 3:29??? Obviously spiritual seed.
What I am discussing, you already know- I am just going through the steps so you can see the connection
between obedience as a result of believing faith and being a spiritual seed of Abraham
Are you in Christ? - If you are (you must check with the word of God if you really are) and if you are then you are the spiritual seed of Abraham?
How are you in Christ? Is it a matter of being born into the christ lineage physically Of course not
God the Father begat as sons and daughters spiritually through Jesus Christ resurresction
when we confessed and obeyed
Part 1- Confession and Acceptance
Rom 10: 9 & 10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine
heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
What does it mean to confess and accept Jesus Christ as Lord?
In this case you give unreserved and total obedience to the Lordship of Jesus Christ
and obey His commandments and his teachings. Jesus Christ is also Lord of the Sabbath
The pharisees were physical seed of Abraham but they are not the spiritual seed because
Why?? Because they did not obey all the commandments of God -sinned and in reality were the servants
of satan and preferred to
strictly enforce their own" traditions of the elders" which is man made-
Keeping sabbath on sunday (1st day of
the week is also man made- started by the rc church which God never commanded.
Do not confuse me and the people who obey the commandment of sabbath keeping with legalistic
pharasaical jews who have a ridiculous amount of rubbish "traditions from the elders -they are whited sepulchres
look good on the outside and rotten on the inside
The modern day orthodox jews even go to the extent of staying close to their synagogues
so its within walking distance and they dont need to use their cars on sabbath
You said that by keeping the sabbath, you wont be able to go for a drive. Who said that?
Tell me, would you consider pressing the gas pedal of your car to be hard laborious work?
So why couldnt you go for a restful drive . How do you think the sabbath keepers today (spiritual seed of Abraham)
go to their church building. We dont walk for 10 miles, we drive there
Secondly what's the go with - if you havent work 6 full days then you cannot keep the sabbath properly
I dont know how you worked that out.
So if that's the case, you mean to say old widows and disabled people will not be able to keep the sabbath???
Your logic whatever it is, doesn't make sense does it?
Exodus 20:8-10
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God
Where does it say in the above sabbath verses, that you have to work 6 full days
Before you can properly keep the 7th day as a sabbath
What God is saying is if it is understood properly is:
You have 6 whole days to do whatever work you want to do or need to do
Reserve the 7th day for me as a sabbath for resting and collective worship,teaching
and fellowship and as you correctly pointed out that sabbath is from sunset (evening)
to the next sunset (next evening)
Part 2 - Fullfilling God's greatest commandment by loving God with all your heart and being in Christ
(spiritual seed of Abraham) requires obedience
1 John 5:
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep ( The greek word here for keep is Teromen translates
to "actively performing meaning obeying to do)
his commandments (including the sabbath): and his commandments(including the sabbath)
are not grievous (example allowed to go for a leisurely drive)
When we are in Christ, it is a spiritual thing- it's spirit based
John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
and we activatate this relationship of being in Christ and so being the spiritual seed of Abraham
by being obedient to Jesus Christ and God's commandments because we love God, and we delight in Christ.
How are we going to be in Christ if we do not know him and how are we going to know him if we don't keep His commandments
1 John 2:4
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin,
we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep (obey) his commandments.
Notice the difference below of just giving lip service and being truly in Christ as our Lord
obedience is required
Luke 6
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say (by implication what he stands for)
In essence Jesus is pointing out that it is pointless calling Him Lord if they are not willing to keep
God's commandments. Jesus Christ said, He and the Father are one and whatever tells him He does.
So don't you think by implication Jesus Christ as the Son of God would have commanded the 10 commandments
He goes way beyond the 10 commandments by bringing in the beautitudes to live our lives by
Twinky, it looks like you do selective reading. Maybe you are very tired and dont have the time or energy to see how it
all fits together. Some of the thigs learnt in the p-falafel class (even if most of the material was plargiarised by some clown psing as Doctor of Theology)
some of them are good biblical principles. Precept up precept , line upon line to see how it all fits together and see the whole picture
So don't do a microscopic witch hunt to shoot me down but instead if you follow the sequence as shown in the bible, you will
see how the keeping of the sabbath along with the rest of the commandments fits in with God's plan of salvation
The problem with most christians is that they miss out on God's plan for salvation by ignoring a very important
commandment of God (7th day sabbath)
Your quote:
And don't forget, Abraham was born and died waaaay before Moses was even a twinkle in his dad's eye, never mind the time when he was given the ten commandments. Abraham is "pre-law" or "patriarchal" (for those who are into "dispensations"). Therefore, you can't say that Abraham "obeyed the law" as it was later written down. Obeyed different (unwritten) laws, maybe. We can't know what, with precision
In regards to pre law, pre mosaic, whatever you may want to call it- dispensations old vw stuff
which he mesmerised us with- we must be careful to get good valid stuff out of that stinks -vw used
fancy terminology like dispensation to build up to what he wants you and me to believe. Let's not go down that track
Obedience doesnt have to be just a written command, if it can be proven. The word of God is also written in the stars
Every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God whether it is spoken or written is a law or commandment
(when it says do this or don't do this)
Luke 4:4
4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God
What's the word of God?- It is the will of God- What's the "will" of God? It's the laws and commandments of God
So it doesnt matter that God formally gave the 10 commandments 400 odd years after Abraham to Moses-
God's word is law -spoken or written, it is law.The whole of creation is sustained by God's laws and commandments
Genesis 1:3-5
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
The law formally given to Moses- doesnt mean it is any less significant before the time of Moses.
The law was already there from Genesis being witnessed by the angels .
Deut 30:10
1
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God,(spoken) to keep (obey) his commandments
and his statutes which are written in this book of the law and if thou turn unto the Lord thy
God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul., and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God
with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:19
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death,
blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
When God speaks the whole of nature listens and heaven and earth and the angels are witnesses
of the laws and commandments of God
If obedience legally is something that can only be adhered to only if it is in written form
then Adam & Eve might have a good case against God for driving them out of the garden of Eden
Adam would go something like this "God, I heard you loud and clear and it was very clear
to me when you told me' The day you eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
you will surel die" . Aha - but you didnt give that commandment to me in writing so please reverse
that decision to drive us out of the grden of Eden"
As for Abraham not obeying the law- Read Genesis thoroughly and you will see that it was because
Abraham believed and obeyed God's voice directly (The word of God) it was accounted to him for righteousness
It is the same with us who choose to believe God's word (The bible- The word of God) and obey that's why we are
called the spiritual seed of Abraham because we are following the example of Abraham - once he understood what
God's commandment was - He chose to believe and obey. He didnt question the validity when he was to leave
his pagan family. He didnt question God when he was to offer his only son tht he loved as a sacrifice to God.
He obeyed the great God of the universe knowing that God knows what he is doing and the outcome would be
the best one and believed God that in the end somehow he would be blessed for obeying God that God had him
covered. This is believing faith and he was greatly blessed by God
The word of God is the will of God - It is witnessed by heaven and earth and the angels
The whole bible is about Jesus Christ who is the word of God and the word of God musy be treated
with the utomost respect (fear of God) for God's sovereignity
Yes! I can say Abraham did obey the laws and commandments of God and it doesnt make an iota of difference
whether it was given by direct revelation or in written form. Satan cannot argue because the word of God
is also in written form. Jesus Christ when he was tempted in the wilderness said "it is written"
Ok you say we dont know with certainity what Abraham obeyed in regards to God's commandments
so what do you say to this:
Genesis 26
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice (God's direct word), and
kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Abraham obeyed all of God's commandments including the sabbath. There's no doubt about that
You must also understand that the people of God were already observing the sabbath right from day one
even before it was given in written form to Moses etched in stone tablets
Exodus 20:
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
This is the first mention of sabbath as instructed by God through Moses
So why would God ask them to "remember to keep the sabbath" if it was a new thing and never heard of or practised before
Go figure
Because it was already being practised right down from Adam & Eve through Noah through Abraham
God nailed it on stone tablets officially during the time of Moses. So it doesnt mean God has to give it to you
in writing before it becomes a law or commandment. It becomes a law or commandment when God speaks it
We are not not talking about the british parliament or the american senate.
This is God's word we are are talking about and it is written in the stars
Romans 4:5
5 But to him that worketh not, (we cannot be saved by our own works- salvation is a gift of God through Jesus Christ- that's true)
but believeth on him that ( but our believing and obeying God's commandments as Abraham did- obedience is the natural consequence of believing faith) James 1:22
justifieth the ungodly,
his faith is counted for righteousness (God is able to impute righteousness to us in Christ because of our believing faith in the whole word of God as he did for Abraham)
Revelation 22:
14 Blessed are they that do (obey) his commandmentssss (plural includes 7th day sabbath keeping)
that they may have right to the tree of life,
and may enter in through the gates into the city. (excludes fake christianity- people who want to do what they think is right and what is convenient for them. When Abraham was asked to get out of
his comfort zone where his kindred was, it must have been inconvenient for
him but he chose to obey God- Now he's called the father of faithful and the spiritual
seed of Abraham by God's decree are those who follow his example of believing faith
(i.e obedience)
Edited by WaxitLink to comment
Share on other sites
Waxit
If you follow my bible verse quotes in it's entirety Mark- you will see I heavily quote from the new testament
The mind set that sabbath is for the ole testament is what I believe is making you think I am just quoting from
the old testament. The whole word of God must be taken into account.
The new testament is hidden in the old testament and the old testament is revealed in the new testament
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
I think I'm done with this conversation. There is no need to be insulting just because someone presents a different and well-thought-out view.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
Waxit says the following with his mindset of mentioning Abraham. In reality Abraham is not part of the book of Revelation. He is not mentioned in this prophetic book. Instead this figurative book mentions the lamb of God, a phrase used to describe Jesus Christ, while following him.
Here information from the book of Revelation from an article that I have written titled "End Times When Jesus Christ Reigns Supreme". One of my goals is to write and get a biblical book published.
The question is what is the “Lamb’s book of life” and who is part of this? The Lamb’s book of life represents Jesus Christ and those who follow him. Only good or pure will enter into this and this is through following Jesus Christ. Next we have verses which show the free will of humanity. The choice being given to humanity of doing good or right or not doing good. In a favorable way, I see this as the followers of Jesus Christ being fully persuaded in heart to have the mindset of Jesus Christ. This is through learning about Jesus Christ in a favorable positive way and believing in Jesus Christ as Lord.
Revelations 22:10-11
10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. 11 Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”
NIV
Next we have more symbolic language of those who wash their robes. This shows that those who change from bad to good through Jesus Christ will be able to go through the gates into the city. However, outside of what he thought as the New Jerusalem John still saw those who were bad with him comparing them to dogs. Dogs are seen favorably today, but during the first century before dogs were trained to be good, dogs were symbolically seen as bad. However, just like dogs have been trained today to be good in nations like the United States. In the future under Jesus Christ more and more of humanity will be retrained to be good and followers of Christ. Then and only then will they be able to enter in through the gates into the city that represents the savior Jesus Christ. However, as read in Revelation 21:24-26, even nations or large groups of people will change, follow Jesus Christ and be able to come in through the gates. And the gates will never be shut.
Revelation 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb: that they may have a right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
15 Without are dogs, and sorcerers, and unchaste, and murderers, and servers of idols, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie.
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition
What John saw was the free will ability to do good or not do good. In order to go through the gates into the city of salvation with eternal life, being a follower of Jesus Christ with his mindset is required. People that are bad and evil will or would need to make a major change. However, Paul who made a very large change from being hateful while perhaps being the main persecutor of the followers of Jesus Christ to being the main and most informative teacher of the New Testament saw the change that Jesus Christ could make with all of humanity. Even the ones like he was before he became a follower of Jesus Christ. For more details on this subject read the chapter titled, “The Salvation of Humanity Through Jesus Christ”.
Edited by Mark SanguinettiLink to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
I totally agree with Twinky's response to this rudeness from Waxit: " There is no need to be insulting just because someone presents a different and well-thought-out view."
Waxit, it seems you've again missed the point. You're not "right just because you said so." You have to make an argument that makes sense. "even if most of the materia[L] (sic) was plagiarized by some clown" doesn't make your case/argument. There are plenty of possible reasons/causes why the "precepts" in the P-falafel class may not be good biblical principles.
Examples thereof are well explained in Charlene's book, Undertow.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Waxit
You get offended too easily and I honestly didnt mean to be insulting. I share a lot of information and it takes up a lot of time
Edited by Waxitto go through the maze of information i present
I know people will not agree with me on everything and I share the truth knowing that people will have their own opinions.
But i share them anyway regardless because God said hold forth the truth-
God said i dont hold you responsible for how people will react but only that you reach out to people in love
I speak the truth in love and sometimes I get misunderstood (Satan will ensure that happens so they walk away from the truth)
I am hoping people will see the significance of the 7th day sabbath in the plan of salvation and God will give them even greater
revelations of the word of God
But if you want to stop the conversation and coming to grips with the 7th day sababth and why it is so important
because you think that I am insulting, I apologise for that because that was never my intention. I brought about a point
so you can see that you might be on the wrong track and it runs contrary to what God wants.
I respect your wishes and if you have any questions that you think I might have a point dont let this misunderstanding
stop you from asking questions or discussing further- Also note there is a chance that I might have misunderstood you
no hard feelings
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Maybe y'all could hash this out more effectively with PM's, where you could address each other more directly. Just a suggestion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
@ Waxit.
I asked you this question (among others) and await your response.
It appears to me that you are missing the point, in a big way.
Mt 23:23
I think you're busy focussing on the "letter of the law" and forgetting the more important matters: justice, mercy and faithfulness (so Jesus says). But those are, in fact, the details of life that I focus on.
May I have your answer, please, to the question I put to you on 8 April?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Waxit
Hi Twinky
I will definitely answer your question.
Correct me if I am wrong?- you are saying I am "majoring in the minor things and minoring in the major things"
in the mould of the pharisees? Nothing is further from the truth
I am perfectly aware of the weightier things of the law- like mercy, justice,faithfullness and love which is really important.
You will notice that in Matt 23:23- In context it is not referring in any part in the whole of Matt 23 in regards to the sabbath
The Lord covered many things about the pride and the "holier than thou attitude and hypocrisy of the pharisees but there is
no reference to the keeping of the sabbath.
Never once has the Lord rebuked the pharisees for keeping the sabbath. He was righteously angry with the pharisees because
they wanted to accuse Jesus for healing on the sabbath and so he confronted them on "their letter of the law" attitude and lack of
love and mercy for the man with the withered man. I have said time and again God wants us to keep the 7th day sabbath with the right
heart and attitude so healing, love, mercy and all these things we must have 24/7
The keeping of the sabbath was never any issue with the Lord or the pharisees- only how it was kept where the pharisees showed their
true colours of hatred for Jesus Christ, lack of love, selfishness, pride and this is what Jesus Christ was confronting them on
I fully agree with you that love, mercy, justice, faithfullness is the very heart of God and that's something we must major in
But the verse that you quoted
in Matt 23:23 has got nothing to do with the keeping of the sabbath as explained above and it would be unfair to apply it to me
Ok! why is 7th day sabbath keeping so important in the plan of God for mankind's salvation??
It's a lengthy explanation and deserves a lot of thought and I dont think I can explain it in a few lines here on GSC
Also please dont have the mindset that keeping of sabbath is going to be burdensome -Refer to 1 John 5:3
What God says is always the truth. Would you agree with that?
Sabbath keeping is enjoyable a time dedicated to spending focussed time with God and rest
free of distractions and outside influences
Would you like to read "God's plan for mankind? It offers a more detailed explanation in answer to your question
and thoroughly researched from the word of God written by a christian minister who is now 80 yrs of age.
Dont read it all at one go- it will be too much- a little bit at a time- think about it and then continue and please pray
that God will give you spiritual insight as it will all click spiritually if you truly seek to find out why it's important to God
Only God can bring light in the way he can and give you the understanding that he would like for you to have.
That's what happened to me. John 8:32
Love, Mercy, Faithfullness falls within the framework of the 7th day Sabbath and God's Holy Days
God's plan for the salvation of mankind
Much love in Christ
Waxit
Edited by WaxitLink to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Okay, no answer then. Not interested in lengthy essays by other people; you have a voice. Use your own words. Be succinct, if you care to respond.
Over and out. Bye.
Edited by TwinkyLink to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Hi Waxit,
You’ll probably just ignore this – but I’ll say it anyway for the benefit of other readers…My impression thus far on this thread is that when there has been some disagreement about your viewpoint – you seem to sidestep the issue that others focus on and dismiss the relevancy and their reasoning of the biblical text that they bring up.
Just an observation here, your go-to means of defending your position lacks specificity and basically amounts to simply suggesting it’s based upon “biblical principles”, “the rightly-divided Word of truth” or the idea that not everything wierwille taught/plagiarized is rubbish – and now more recently you were recommending to someone that they read “God’s Plan for Mankind” – it seems to me your position is untenable. Your responses are often just cliches...And if indeed this book “God’s Plan for Mankind” that you refer to is the same one I had given a link to in my previous post ( - and again here is link ) - I am tempted to say you might have jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. In a previous post I gave a brief analysis of the 2 articles of "God's Plan for Mankind" on the Sabbath noting the author’s mangled use of Scripture and definitions…which brings to mind a book I’d like to recommend Scripture Twisting: 20 Ways the Cults Misread the Bible by James W. Sire .
Some of the ideas in the book will be familiar to folks who know stuff about logical fallacies .I’m not saying the author of "God’s Plan for Mankind" is a cult leader – but Sire’s book is helpful when determining if someone is (even unintentionally) distorting what the Bible actually says. While Jesus Christ as well as others in the Bible have warned of deceivers – perhaps it’s just as important to be aware of the possibility that we may even deceive ourselves:
“The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!" …Matthew 6:22, 23 NASB
That passage may very well refer to self-deception...If my idea of what is true - is actually wrong – but I think that it’s spiritual enlightenment – how great is that darkness! Perhaps a really effective cult leader is one who can convince followers that they’ve "seen the light" .
Others who have posted on this thread (and may differ from your angle) have put a lot of thought and hard work that reflects an intense personal and prayerful study of the Bible. Unless you’re just proselytizing to get others to read this guy’s book you might try being a bit more upfront and honest on this thread and offer more substance from your own personal "homework"…just a thought…
Love and peace
T-Bone
Edited by T-Bonefor the usual reasons
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Tone deaf.
Waxit, there's a HUGE difference between discussion (these are discussion forums) and preaching AT people.
If you want to get serious about the Great Commission (ministry of reconciliation), you may want to do some research and reflection on the subject of emotional maturity.
It is NOT emotionally mature to start off what might be intended to be an apology for having insulted someone by criticizing that person for wrongly getting offended in the first place.
"Holding forth" the Word isn't something you necessarily get credit for doing if you act like you're in a vacuum.
You're (at least in theory) conversing with real, live, humans. People with feelings and attitudes. If you're going to reach them, you'll have to be able to recognize them as such and actually love them. That just might entail empathizing with them.
And that's even IF you have the correct take on what God intends to mean in and by the particular words you think you're holding forth.
Just a thought or two.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Btw, I believe there's a boatload of wisdom in T-Bone's comment just above my previous comment.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Dude, do you think you get points from God for being "right" about anything?
Are you, by any chance, trying to make a case for joining a particular religious denomination (7th Day Adventists)?
How much have you considered, in your study of scriptures, what God wants YOU to do (other than "holding forth" your interpretation of what's the right way to understand the Bible)?
Btw, I don't need your answers, all three questions are rhetorical.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.