I find SIT a lot of fun. Paul likens it to a child’s thing, like a toy, until we grow up at the Return.I findit is like playing with Daddy, the way young children will wrestle and tickle Daddy and get tickled.It is a joyous thankful thing. And we usually do it unsupervised.
Why say that? I think you just don't understand it.
I think I saw you post that you were a teenager under Craig's ruinous rule. Do I remember this accurately? If so, It is likely you never got a good explanation of SIT.
Have you ever sat through the entire original PFAL film class?
Craig's Clone Class was terrible, from what I heard of it.
The De-Craiged Clone Class that followed was not good enough in the eyes of its producers and they now are trying a better approach.
I regard all TWI "members" who have not had a chance to sit through the entire original film class as handicapped, and I want to fix this.
Yes, but it is righteous and loving condescending.
God condescends to us this way, and I am trying to imitate Him, and just help with love and finding a way for them to see that original class, if they want to.
I am not belittling the PEOPLE who took those inferior classes, but just noting that they did not get anything like what we older grads received, where God worked to make the 1968 film class to happen. I am sure that God was able to work with individuals at times in TWI during the crap years, but the corporation as a whole was out to lunch and GENERALLY did a terrible job at educating new grads. God's grace, mercy, and power were mitigating this where and when possible, I am sure.
The people who had and inferior class, and in a terrible atmosphere should be thought of as having missed what good we saw in the 1970s.
I'm not thinking I am superior; just that my exposure to the class was superior.
This does not grant me extra privilege to lord it over them, but it does give me a greater responsibility to try and help them. I try to remember they have not had the advantage I had, and I want to help fix that handicap. I think it is fixable.
In other words, nothing has really changed they're still discussing it.
I do see changes in attitude on the field, like a willingness to talk openly about the past, as long as I keep it quiet around new people who need not to hear about the wrongs of many years ago.They are not doing a pressure cooker approach at all. I hear that HQ has “admitted” to kicking a lot of Corps out unjustly, and are now welcoming them back. Two weeks ago they officially said that the new goal of TWI is Word Over the World.That is a good change, and following through on that I am urging that there be an ECN that specifically negates Craig’s proclamation that WoW was already accomplished, along with the new policy of going back to WoW.
Talk is cheap. As for the WOWs, salesmen for PLAF, which generates more money, plus more streams of income through abundance sharing.
2 hours ago, Mike said:
I didn't mean what you'd like to see or what could change, I meant what changes have you specifically worked on. So far your telling me there are no real changes, just a lot of future faking, i.e, maybe perhaps we'll change at some future date, if we feel like it
These are tiny changes so far. I am totally on the lookout for more, and methodically advocating for this with leaders.
Tiny? They're practically microscopic. As for the change in attitude, just another way to reel in more streams of income as the BOD probably realized they were running out of money and needed a way to generate more, as the previous attitudes were of putting. This also explains the call back to the corps
2 hours ago, Mike said:
2 hours ago, Mike said:
That's not closing your mind, that's suspension of disbelief. And even that's a very gossamer quality, very easy to break. All it takes is little things like too many shots fired out of a revolver or a continually error. A closed mind however is very hard to open. Even when confronted with reason it will insist on staying closed.
This is a long topic.I have posted reams on it already, and we can come back to it sometime.
This is what I was talking about: you want to teach, but you don't want to learn. You closed mind in action.
2 hours ago, Mike said:
Really, you're not pushing nostalgia. Then what's all this remember the joy you felt when you first took the class business?
No, a better way to express that is to say I am re-generating the SAME joy I had when I first took the class and was working my KJV and fellowshipping with like-minded believers.It is not a looking back on the joy, and wishing it could happen again.Nostalgia is a yearning for the past that cannot be repeated. I am seen re-joy happening, generating the same joy again.
You must have missed it in the previous post, many of us didn't feel joy in the class. So you're wasting your time trying to rekindle something that wasn't there.
2 hours ago, Mike said:
*/*/*/*/*/*
Fun? That's an odd word for praying. I first stated SITting at a Rock, I was up all night SITting.…Occasionally, although I don't know if it does any good
I find SIT a lot of fun. Paul likens it to a child’s thing, like a toy, until we grow up at the Return.I findit is like playing with Daddy, the way young children will wrestle and tickle Daddy and get tickled.It is a joyous thankful thing. And we usually do it unsupervised.
Again, you try to set yourself as the standard.
1 hour ago, Mike said:
Yes, but it is righteous and loving condescending.
God condescends to us this way, and I am trying to imitate Him, and just help with love and finding a way for them to see that original class, if they want to
There's a difference here. He's God, you're a mortal, fallible human being just like the rest of us. Remember, ol' Henry could explain the Ford, but the Ford couldn't explain Ol' Henry.
Also, you're talking to people who have just as much spirit as you do. (God is no respecter of persons, right?) So thinking your better (why else would you be condescending) only offends others and puts them off.
Try approaching people at there level for a change.
Lamsa’s strongest supporters and colleagues have (apparently) always been cultists and aberrant Christian religions, not evangelicals. He never forgot that one of his first friends in the Americas was a Christian Science lady, Mrs. Mitchell.54The A.R.E. (Association for Research and Enlightenment) engaged him as a speaker, quoted him, and offered his books for sale. The Unity School of Christianity, a non-Christian mind science group, published three of Lamsa’s books in 1966 and 1968 and offered other books for sale. Lamsa was such a popular speaker for Unity groups and worked so closely with them that he kept his office on the Unity campus in Lee’s Summit, Missouri, late in his life. One of Lamsa’s closest coworkers and students was Rocco Errico, who heads the metaphysical Noohra Foundation and has written books for Science of Mind publications — books which illuminate thetrue(heretical) nature of his teacher’s theology. Moreover, The Way International, a pseudo-Christian group, received Lamsa as a teacher, promotes his books, and published Aramaic texts and a concordance modeled after Lamsa’s work. (In recent years, however, The Way has rejected several of Lamsa’s assertions about Aramaic after comparing them to valid research.)
The widespread support Lamsa enjoyed from non-Christian groups is a strong indication that he promoted metaphysical, heretical, and unscholarly teachings — not evangelical and scholarly.
I think Im going to branch off a thread exploring VPW's metaphysical influences. He definately had his big toe into the occult whether he knew it or not. It was during the late 1800s with the likes of Phinaes Parkhurst Quimby, Mary Baker Eddy, E.W. Kenyon, et. al. New thought movement, law of believing -- all that. But it's well documented that these Christians were spiritists and had occultic leanings. Don't wanna get too far off topic here but it ties into Lamsa. So with wierwille there is a long list of influences from known spiritualists, etc.
I was involved in the occult before becoming a Christian when is was 23. I immdiately recognized the practices taught via the law of believing as coming from the occult during my first foundational class many years ago in Kew Gardens. Of course I rationalized it all away thinking that the devil was counterfeiting the law of believing from God! Wrong. It is occultism mingled into Christianity.
Hey all, found this excerpt while I am working on a post for the absent Christ thread…here it is – the smoking gun – wierwille’s attempting to subvert the NT canon:
In the orange PFAL bookin the chapter To Whom The Word is Written, page 210 says One of the greatest errors in the translation of the Bible was placing the four Gospels in the New Testament. The Gospels logically belong in the Old Testament. Jesus came to Israel, His own people. He was the prophet who fulfilled the law of the Old Testament.; therefore, the Gospels complete the Old Testament.
Hey all, found this excerpt while I am working on a post for the absent Christ thread…here it is – the smoking gun – wierwille’s attempting to subvert the NT canon:
In the orange PFAL bookin the chapter To Whom The Word is Written, page 210 says One of the greatest errors in the translation of the Bible was placing the four Gospels in the New Testament. The Gospels logically belong in the Old Testament. Jesus came to Israel, His own people. He was the prophet who fulfilled the law of the Old Testament.; therefore, the Gospels complete the Old Testament.
Hey all, found this excerpt while I am working on a post for the absent Christ thread…here it is – the smoking gun – wierwille’s attempting to subvert the NT canon:
In the orange PFAL bookin the chapter To Whom The Word is Written, page 210 says One of the greatest errors in the translation of the Bible was placing the four Gospels in the New Testament. The Gospels logically belong in the Old Testament. Jesus came to Israel, His own people. He was the prophet who fulfilled the law of the Old Testament.; therefore, the Gospels complete the Old Testament.
An error in translation? Translation? Did he mean compilation? Or composition? Or assembly?
It may seem like a minor error, but in the context of assertions of mathematical accuracy, scientific precision, and tailor-made gloves, these mark misses matter.
Either victor starts saying what he means and meaning what he says or else this whole PFAL thing will just fall to pieces.... oh... wait...
Mike made reference to something like “a b b a “ structure earlier on this thread…I think he was using Bullinger's literary structure notes...anyway…Here's a few links on literary structure of the Bible followed by a couple of specialty study Bibles I’ve found to be helpful on this analytical process:
In that structure of Bullinger's I think the word "Charges" corresponds nicely with what I was calling "a" and I described it as Timothy's responsibilities to uphold the integrity of the Word.
But Bullinger missed entirely what I called "b" - the adversary's attacks on the integrity of the word.
BTW, the word "integrity" has the connotation "sum total" or "none of the good stuff missing." Kinda sounds like CANON, doesn't it?
Here is the "ababababa" structure I saw in a graphic display.
This is just a rough representation, and not yet fine tuned.
Colored red are "b" - the adversary's attacks on the integrity of the Word.
Colored blue are "a" - Timothy's responsibilities to uphold the integrity of the Word.
Don't try to read this.
A readable form is posted below.
This is only to show an overview at a glance.
Here is the "ababababa" structure I saw in a graphic display.
This is just a rough representation, and not yet fine tuned.
Colored red are "b" - the adversary's attacks on the integrity of the Word.
Colored blue are "a" - Timothy's responsibilities to uphold the integrity of the Word.
The above black, red, and blue graphic display are nothing but a blur on both my cell phone and my tablet
Here is the "ababababa" structure in readable form.
This is STILL just a rough representation, and not yet fine tuned.
Colored red are "b" - the adversary's attacks on the integrity of the Word.
Colored blue are "a" - Timothy's responsibilities to uphold the integrity of the Word.
2 Timothy KJV – COLOR Canon
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, 2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. 3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day; 4 Greatly desiring to see thee, being mindful of thy tears, that I may be filled with joy; 5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. 6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us. 15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: 17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me. 18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well. Chap 2 1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. 4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life;that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. 5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully. 6 The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits. 7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things. 8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: 9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver,but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. Chap 3 1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. 10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. Chap 4 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me: 10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. 11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry. 12 And Tychicus have I sent to Ephesus. 13 The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments. 14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: 15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words. 16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge. 17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. 18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. 19 Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. 20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick. 21 Do thy diligence to come before winter. Eubulus greeteth thee, and Pudens, and Linus, and Claudia, and all the brethren. 22 The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen. The second epistle unto Timotheus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Ephesians, was written from Rome, when Paul was brought before Nero the second time.
regard all TWI "members" who have not had a chance to sit through the entire original film class as handicapped, and I want to fix this.
On 10/12/2022 at 9:47 AM, OldSkool said:
Ahhh that's why your so condescending.
No, there are actually several reasons that I am so condescending.
But I am trying to NOT sound like the negative kind of condescending.
I admit I may have had that negative tone in my previous response, so please let me try again.
Those several reasons are too complicated to discus now, but for THIS situation of my trying to be beneficially condescending, please let me try.
I didn’t mean that I saw people who didn’t ever see the 1968 film class as inferiors to me.It may have sounded that way.
What I meant was that they should be given a pass (by me) on certain things, BECAUSE they didn’t have nearly the same HI QUALITY “ministry experience” that I had.
I feel it a duty, that since I was blessed so big, I have a big responsibility to PASS IT ON.
*/*/*/*/*
The Craig Clone Class (I forget the name) was conceived under extremely trying circumstances for TWI, trying for both for most people in, and almost all people out. That chaos started in 1986, and went up and down in all sorts of ways. Then in 1995 the film class was withdrawn, and the new class was substituted.
*/*/*/*
I see the 1942 promise as a completed project, where God did the teaching over 42.5 years to VPW and VPW taught us. The finished form of this intervention by God was the film class and the collateral readings that came with the class.These were the targets, and the end of his life and last recorded teaching, that he pointed to and said TWICE that we should master them.
Ok, those are the originals of my only rule for faith and practice… roughly speaking. They are my Postulates.
*/*/*/*
Now, a practice we enjoyed in TWI is that we were strongly encouraged to re-teach the same class materials to others by OURSELVES in our twigs. This is what I was taught in twig leaders meetings.
I’ll call these encouraged re-teachings we did Secondary Pfal Teachings, or SPTs for short.
These SPT attempts were usually pretty good and right on with the class and collaterals. It was estimated in twig leaders meetings that it would take about 2 years to teach the whole class in a home fellowship live. In those days we met 2 and 3 times per week.
Before the film class was made, VPW had Mal George and others SPT teaching the PFAL class themselves in locations far from HQ.
In San Diego, before the meltdown, the Corps put together a whole PFAL class that was team taught.
All these SPT re-teachings of the class were done a very supportive atmosphere of cooperation and love.LOTS of volunteers worked these things many hours per week per year.You didn’t have to be Corps to chip in and help in all sorts of ways.
*/*/*/*/*
Ok, back to my story.
In 1986 that very supportive atmosphere of cooperation and love ENDED for many people and many places.
Yet, I have to give Craig credit for keeping the original class running as far as he did. I’m sure that was tough. But he ran out of gas sometime before 1995.
Ok, the originals then in mothballs. A class that Craig put together UNDER DURESS replaced what God had put together with VPW.This was NOT in the category of the cheerfully produced SPTs, put together in previous decades.
So, let’s get this straight.
In 1995, the 1968 class inspired by God’s direct intervention
is replaced by a secondary re-teaching produced under duress.
The teacher of the class after 1995 was handicapped, and he didn’t have a promise like the one that came in 1942 that VPW had. This class did not fill the bill, so they de-Craig-ed it by replacing his video with a team of teachers… I think.I got lots of this data from a very noisy signal.
From better data, I heard that this second replacement for the film class was better.
I sat in on Session One for the newest replacement for foundational class, PFAL-T, several weeks ago, and it looked pretty good. I’m still sold on the originals, but the 2 hours I saw kept my attention, and seemed to have the detail well covered.
I was just SO lucky to have had a rich exposure to the originals.
From my close examination and experience with PFAL’68 I am convinced its production was supervised by God. This means I see it as a UNIQUE source of benefits for me and others.
I was very lucky to have had much of my exposure to the originals unsupervised, and the supervision I did get was very wise and helpful. It was wonderful and positive all the way up to early 1984ish times, and then things got wobbley. Not long after that, the frequent running of classes totally ended.
The good I saw when the originals were in dense circulation was SO GOOD, that I feel for those who missed it. I feel they were unlucky where I was lucky.
Fortunately for me also, there were lots of my friends who were able to dodge the bullets and experience and remember the good that worked well. The wave of PFAL’68 grads coming back to PFAL is growing and maturing.
I will be searching for better ways to offer the great good I enjoy, without sounding negatively condescending.
as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver,but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And t
Oops! I already see some mistakes I made in the coloring.
Sorry, I was in a rush.
Good thing this is only a beta presentation to Nathan_Jr's invitation to me that started this thread.
LATE EDIT - I was able to fix most of the mistakes, but not very seamlessly.
Regardless of the reason, any type of condescension is wrong. That's not trying to share something, but attempting to be a boss.
I was thinking of the kind of condescension God does on the Condiscencio figure of speech. THAT is a good condescension, and I was trying to imitate that, minus the boss part.
Have any suggestions how I can demonstrate non-bossiness, yet still maintain that this package is from God in a way that is 2,000 years unique?
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
199
126
90
153
Popular Days
Oct 17
109
Oct 11
87
Oct 15
69
Oct 10
54
Top Posters In This Topic
Mike 199 posts
T-Bone 126 posts
OldSkool 90 posts
Nathan_Jr 153 posts
Popular Days
Oct 17 2022
109 posts
Oct 11 2022
87 posts
Oct 15 2022
69 posts
Oct 10 2022
54 posts
Popular Posts
Twinky
I haven't been following this thread but had a peek. This whole thread is absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the canon of scripture. But I did note the following, originally posted by our
waysider
Ahhh, those were the days.
waysider
Bake 'em away, toys.
Posted Images
Bolshevik
Perverted
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Why say that? I think you just don't understand it.
I think I saw you post that you were a teenager under Craig's ruinous rule. Do I remember this accurately? If so, It is likely you never got a good explanation of SIT.
Have you ever sat through the entire original PFAL film class?
Craig's Clone Class was terrible, from what I heard of it.
The De-Craiged Clone Class that followed was not good enough in the eyes of its producers and they now are trying a better approach.
I regard all TWI "members" who have not had a chance to sit through the entire original film class as handicapped, and I want to fix this.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Ahhh that's why your so condescending.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Yes, but it is righteous and loving condescending.
God condescends to us this way, and I am trying to imitate Him, and just help with love and finding a way for them to see that original class, if they want to.
I am not belittling the PEOPLE who took those inferior classes, but just noting that they did not get anything like what we older grads received, where God worked to make the 1968 film class to happen. I am sure that God was able to work with individuals at times in TWI during the crap years, but the corporation as a whole was out to lunch and GENERALLY did a terrible job at educating new grads. God's grace, mercy, and power were mitigating this where and when possible, I am sure.
The people who had and inferior class, and in a terrible atmosphere should be thought of as having missed what good we saw in the 1970s.
I'm not thinking I am superior; just that my exposure to the class was superior.
This does not grant me extra privilege to lord it over them, but it does give me a greater responsibility to try and help them. I try to remember they have not had the advantage I had, and I want to help fix that handicap. I think it is fixable.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
LoL
That's not what I had in mind.
Sadly, that kind of thing did happen.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
Talk is cheap. As for the WOWs, salesmen for PLAF, which generates more money, plus more streams of income through abundance sharing.
Tiny? They're practically microscopic. As for the change in attitude, just another way to reel in more streams of income as the BOD probably realized they were running out of money and needed a way to generate more, as the previous attitudes were of putting. This also explains the call back to the corps
This is what I was talking about: you want to teach, but you don't want to learn. You closed mind in action.
You must have missed it in the previous post, many of us didn't feel joy in the class. So you're wasting your time trying to rekindle something that wasn't there.
Again, you try to set yourself as the standard.
There's a difference here. He's God, you're a mortal, fallible human being just like the rest of us. Remember, ol' Henry could explain the Ford, but the Ford couldn't explain Ol' Henry.
Also, you're talking to people who have just as much spirit as you do. (God is no respecter of persons, right?) So thinking your better (why else would you be condescending) only offends others and puts them off.
Try approaching people at there level for a change.
Edited by So_cratesLink to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
More on Llamsa -
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
John Juedes(sp?) addresses this in one of his excellent videos on YouTube.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Cool -- Im a Jeudes fan for sure. thanks!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
I think Im going to branch off a thread exploring VPW's metaphysical influences. He definately had his big toe into the occult whether he knew it or not. It was during the late 1800s with the likes of Phinaes Parkhurst Quimby, Mary Baker Eddy, E.W. Kenyon, et. al. New thought movement, law of believing -- all that. But it's well documented that these Christians were spiritists and had occultic leanings. Don't wanna get too far off topic here but it ties into Lamsa. So with wierwille there is a long list of influences from known spiritualists, etc.
I was involved in the occult before becoming a Christian when is was 23. I immdiately recognized the practices taught via the law of believing as coming from the occult during my first foundational class many years ago in Kew Gardens. Of course I rationalized it all away thinking that the devil was counterfeiting the law of believing from God! Wrong. It is occultism mingled into Christianity.
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Hey all, found this excerpt while I am working on a post for the absent Christ thread…here it is – the smoking gun – wierwille’s attempting to subvert the NT canon:
In the orange PFAL book in the chapter To Whom The Word is Written, page 210 says One of the greatest errors in the translation of the Bible was placing the four Gospels in the New Testament. The Gospels logically belong in the Old Testament. Jesus came to Israel, His own people. He was the prophet who fulfilled the law of the Old Testament.; therefore, the Gospels complete the Old Testament.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Awww snap!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
An error in translation? Translation? Did he mean compilation? Or composition? Or assembly?
It may seem like a minor error, but in the context of assertions of mathematical accuracy, scientific precision, and tailor-made gloves, these mark misses matter.
Either victor starts saying what he means and meaning what he says or else this whole PFAL thing will just fall to pieces.... oh... wait...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
In that structure of Bullinger's I think the word "Charges" corresponds nicely with what I was calling "a" and I described it as Timothy's responsibilities to uphold the integrity of the Word.
But Bullinger missed entirely what I called "b" - the adversary's attacks on the integrity of the word.
BTW, the word "integrity" has the connotation "sum total" or "none of the good stuff missing." Kinda sounds like CANON, doesn't it?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Here is the "ababababa" structure I saw in a graphic display.
This is just a rough representation, and not yet fine tuned.
Colored red are "b" - the adversary's attacks on the integrity of the Word.
Colored blue are "a" - Timothy's responsibilities to uphold the integrity of the Word.
Don't try to read this.
Edited by MikeA readable form is posted below.
This is only to show an overview at a glance.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
The above black, red, and blue graphic display are nothing but a blur on both my cell phone and my tablet
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
I understand. I was only trying to show the gross structure there. I will post a readable one next.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Here is the "ababababa" structure in readable form.
This is STILL just a rough representation, and not yet fine tuned.
Colored red are "b" - the adversary's attacks on the integrity of the Word.
Colored blue are "a" - Timothy's responsibilities to uphold the integrity of the Word.
2 Timothy KJV – COLOR Canon
Edited by Mike1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, 2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. 3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day; 4 Greatly desiring to see thee, being mindful of thy tears, that I may be filled with joy; 5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. 6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us. 15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: 17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me. 18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well. Chap 2 1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. 4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. 5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully. 6 The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits. 7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things. 8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: 9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. Chap 3 1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. 10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. Chap 4 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me: 10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. 11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry. 12 And Tychicus have I sent to Ephesus. 13 The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments. 14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: 15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words. 16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge. 17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. 18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. 19 Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. 20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick. 21 Do thy diligence to come before winter. Eubulus greeteth thee, and Pudens, and Linus, and Claudia, and all the brethren. 22 The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen. The second epistle unto Timotheus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Ephesians, was written from Rome, when Paul was brought before Nero the second time.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
No, there are actually several reasons that I am so condescending.
But I am trying to NOT sound like the negative kind of condescending.
I admit I may have had that negative tone in my previous response, so please let me try again.
Those several reasons are too complicated to discus now, but for THIS situation of my trying to be beneficially condescending, please let me try.
I didn’t mean that I saw people who didn’t ever see the 1968 film class as inferiors to me. It may have sounded that way.
What I meant was that they should be given a pass (by me) on certain things, BECAUSE they didn’t have nearly the same HI QUALITY “ministry experience” that I had.
I feel it a duty, that since I was blessed so big, I have a big responsibility to PASS IT ON.
*/*/*/*/*
The Craig Clone Class (I forget the name) was conceived under extremely trying circumstances for TWI, trying for both for most people in, and almost all people out. That chaos started in 1986, and went up and down in all sorts of ways. Then in 1995 the film class was withdrawn, and the new class was substituted.
*/*/*/*
I see the 1942 promise as a completed project, where God did the teaching over 42.5 years to VPW and VPW taught us. The finished form of this intervention by God was the film class and the collateral readings that came with the class. These were the targets, and the end of his life and last recorded teaching, that he pointed to and said TWICE that we should master them.
Ok, those are the originals of my only rule for faith and practice… roughly speaking. They are my Postulates.
*/*/*/*
Now, a practice we enjoyed in TWI is that we were strongly encouraged to re-teach the same class materials to others by OURSELVES in our twigs. This is what I was taught in twig leaders meetings.
I’ll call these encouraged re-teachings we did Secondary Pfal Teachings, or SPTs for short.
These SPT attempts were usually pretty good and right on with the class and collaterals. It was estimated in twig leaders meetings that it would take about 2 years to teach the whole class in a home fellowship live. In those days we met 2 and 3 times per week.
Before the film class was made, VPW had Mal George and others SPT teaching the PFAL class themselves in locations far from HQ.
In San Diego, before the meltdown, the Corps put together a whole PFAL class that was team taught.
All these SPT re-teachings of the class were done a very supportive atmosphere of cooperation and love. LOTS of volunteers worked these things many hours per week per year. You didn’t have to be Corps to chip in and help in all sorts of ways.
*/*/*/*/*
Ok, back to my story.
In 1986 that very supportive atmosphere of cooperation and love ENDED for many people and many places.
Yet, I have to give Craig credit for keeping the original class running as far as he did. I’m sure that was tough. But he ran out of gas sometime before 1995.
Ok, the originals then in mothballs. A class that Craig put together UNDER DURESS replaced what God had put together with VPW. This was NOT in the category of the cheerfully produced SPTs, put together in previous decades.
So, let’s get this straight.
In 1995, the 1968 class inspired by God’s direct intervention
is replaced by a secondary re-teaching produced under duress.
The teacher of the class after 1995 was handicapped, and he didn’t have a promise like the one that came in 1942 that VPW had. This class did not fill the bill, so they de-Craig-ed it by replacing his video with a team of teachers… I think. I got lots of this data from a very noisy signal.
From better data, I heard that this second replacement for the film class was better.
I sat in on Session One for the newest replacement for foundational class, PFAL-T, several weeks ago, and it looked pretty good. I’m still sold on the originals, but the 2 hours I saw kept my attention, and seemed to have the detail well covered.
I was just SO lucky to have had a rich exposure to the originals.
From my close examination and experience with PFAL’68 I am convinced its production was supervised by God. This means I see it as a UNIQUE source of benefits for me and others.
I was very lucky to have had much of my exposure to the originals unsupervised, and the supervision I did get was very wise and helpful. It was wonderful and positive all the way up to early 1984ish times, and then things got wobbley. Not long after that, the frequent running of classes totally ended.
The good I saw when the originals were in dense circulation was SO GOOD, that I feel for those who missed it. I feel they were unlucky where I was lucky.
Fortunately for me also, there were lots of my friends who were able to dodge the bullets and experience and remember the good that worked well. The wave of PFAL’68 grads coming back to PFAL is growing and maturing.
I will be searching for better ways to offer the great good I enjoy, without sounding negatively condescending.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Oops! I already see some mistakes I made in the coloring.
Sorry, I was in a rush.
Good thing this is only a beta presentation to Nathan_Jr's invitation to me that started this thread.
LATE EDIT - I was able to fix most of the mistakes, but not very seamlessly.
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
Regardless of the reason, any type of condescension is wrong. That's not trying to share something, but attempting to be a boss.
Refresh my memory, who washed whose feet in the bible?
Don't you believe Saint Vic when he said a leader is a greater servant.
Of course the the question comes, who did Saint Vic serve? Whose feet did he wash?
Also, you can't explain why your condescending, but you have time to write three posts one of them being considerably long.
Edited by So_cratesLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
I was thinking of the kind of condescension God does on the Condiscencio figure of speech. THAT is a good condescension, and I was trying to imitate that, minus the boss part.
Have any suggestions how I can demonstrate non-bossiness, yet still maintain that this package is from God in a way that is 2,000 years unique?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.