It was constantly reinforced that women were inferior in teaching and treatment and we were told not to use any birth control, leading to many unwanted pregnancies. The Way would then support and pay for abortions, which were not a sin according to their teachings.
So, abortion is the only form of birth control endorsed by TWI.
What accuracy! What mathematical exactness! What scientific precision!
Mmmph!
(A perfect dovetail with another presently active thread.)
It was constantly reinforced that women were inferior in teaching and treatment and we were told not to use any birth control, leading to many unwanted pregnancies. The Way would then support and pay for abortions, which were not a sin according to their teachings.
So, abortion is the only form of birth control endorsed by TWI.
What accuracy! What mathematical exactness! What scientific precision!
Mmmph!
(A perfect dovetail with another presently active thread.)
I had a PE coach in HS that told a bunch of us one day that after getting to know us for a semester, he was going to recommend retroactive birth control.
It was constantly reinforced that women were inferior in teaching and treatment and we were told not to use any birth control, leading to many unwanted pregnancies. The Way would then support and pay for abortions, which were not a sin according to their teachings.
I've been trying to figure out why this substack doesn't sit right with me.
The way this person wrote it, she is NOT telling HER story.
That won't mean anything to anyone who needs to hear HER STORY.
Her story might help people needing to escape the cult or wise up before they get caught up in it.
This quote is just weak sauce.
WHAT did this human see and hear? Did SHE experience an unwanted pregnancy? If so, how did it make her feel? How did she cope with the emotional and medical ramifications of the pregnancy? What was HER outcome?
Maybe this human writer needs to read some of the work on vulnerability Brené Brown has published.
Btw, a discussion about abortion policies in and of itself is a political topic.
A retelling of history of TWI is retelling of historical events. For them to matter to readers, they have to come off as authentic.
A very quick search on Goodreads.com brought this title, Writing the Memoir: From Truth to Art by Judith Barrington.
I haven't read the book, but about 20 years ago I took a college class on Newswriting, because I was working for a small newspaper and didn't have a journalism degree.
The instructor was a seasoned journalist and editor. Beside the basic who, what, when, where, how, and why, he drove home that news writing is NOT done well in passive voice.
That's even more important in memoir. EVERY human has a story, actually LOTS of stories.
Stories make humanity sane, actually. What in the world did humans do BEFORE the internet? Before message boards? Before the printing press?
If they wanted to effectively communicate important lessons from generation to generation, they had to have LOTS of storytellers.
Everyone here CAN be a good storyteller, even Mike. Even me.
But it's a skill that needs to be developed and sharpened throughout one's life in order to be effective.
I've been trying to figure out why this substack doesn't sit right with me.
The way this person wrote it, she is NOT telling HER story.
That won't mean anything to anyone who needs to hear HER STORY.
Her story might help people needing to escape the cult or wise up before they get caught up in it.
This quote is just weak sauce.
WHAT did this human see and hear? Did SHE experience an unwanted pregnancy? If so, how did it make her feel? How did she cope with the emotional and medical ramifications of the pregnancy? What was HER outcome?
Maybe this human writer needs to read some of the work on vulnerability Brené Brown has published.
Btw, a discussion about abortion policies in and of itself is a political topic.
A retelling of history of TWI is retelling of historical events. For them to matter to readers, they have to come off as authentic.
She has a blend of her story plus supporting evidence which consists of others stories all with referenced sources unlike “the collaterals”.
i mean maybe those of you heavily invested in writing memoirs can figure out how to stay in first person and come off “more authentic”.
Rather than be irritated by her switching from first person to third person voice I look at it like at least she did a better job than her “father in da Verd”.
The Way Internationals continual denial of plagiarism claims has karma coming back around to bite them in the butt with accurately footnoted anecdotal accounts of immorality.
She has a blend of her story plus supporting evidence which consists of others stories all with referenced sources unlike “the collaterals”.
i mean maybe those of you heavily invested in writing memoirs can figure out how to stay in first person and come off “more authentic”.
Rather than be irritated by her switching from first person to third person voice I look at it like at least she did a better job than her “father in da Verd”.
The Way Internationals continual denial of plagiarism claims has karma coming back around to bite them in the butt with accurately footnoted anecdotal accounts of immorality.
She can do what she wants, obviously. It's not a matter of me (anything). It's a matter of what she wants to do or accomplish with what she writes.
More power to her. However, for her to see more impact (power) from her writing, she's got some work to do.
If all she wants is to say it, great. She'll get all the feedback her readers care to give her.
The opening two paragraphs to her story…or account… or examination… or observation… or whatever one needs to cal it:
The experiences related in this story are mine. This report is based on my personal recollections supported by an archive of contemporaneously written notes, journals, and photographs*. Most of the information about The Way’s beliefs and practices I either witnessed firsthand or were reported directly to me by members of and recruiters for The Way. This report is highly factual, and like every report may contain an error. I apologize for any such errors, but they are few and most likely superficial in nature. The truth is that this high control group still follows many of these spiritually and financially abusive practices in one form or the other. They have never apologized or publicly acknowledged responsibility for any harm that has come to their followers. And that is a true shame.
My recounting is corroborated by hundreds of reports and articles about the Way online. In addition there are thousands of personal experiences recounted in social media posts that echo my memories and validate many reports of extremism, sexual and financial abuse. At least three books have been written about the fake scholarship, traumatic experiences and abuse in The Way. These authors and myself all fell victim to The Way under Victor P. Wierwille’s direction.
My recounting is corroborated by hundreds of reports and articles about the Way online. In addition there are thousands of personal experiences recounted in social media posts that echo my memories and validate many reports of extremism, sexual and financial abuse. At least three books have been written about the fake scholarship, traumatic experiences and abuse in The Way. These authors and myself all fell victim to The Way under Victor P. Wierwille’s direction.
Does she provide footnotes to the hundreds of corroborating reports and articles?
That's still weak sauce. It doesn't present anything that could convince anyone who doesn't already believe it.
IOW, confirmation bias.
In order for it to be anything with communicative power, she needs to rewrite the entire first draft
If you need a refresher, I recommend Undertow. Not that Penworks is soliciting praise. She's not.
But Undertow is HER STORY. Can any reader on this GSC thread reasonably characterize the substack article similarly to how a cult researcher characterized Undertow?
“Charlene Edge writes with clarity and sensitivity. This memoir on her experiences in The Way International will help readers understand the subtleties and complexities of cultic groups.”
Edge, Charlene L. Undertow . New Wings Press, LLC. Kindle Edition.
Here's what Karl Kahler, author of The Cult that Snapped wrote about Undertow:
“A tenderly written, intensely personal narrative about being swallowed alive by a cult. Charlene Edge’s encounters with the abusive Victor Paul Wierwille and her firsthand observation of how The Way’s Research Department twisted the Scriptures are enlightening and chilling.”
Edge, Charlene L. Undertow . New Wings Press, LLC. Kindle Edition.
Is there ANYTHING in the substack that might be tenderly written, or intensely personal about having been swallowed alive by a cult?
The person who wrote that substack took a HUGE risk emotionally. At least I figure she did.
But did she really accomplish what she intended? I don't know what she intended.
But all she seems to have accomplished is to reiterate what she read elsewhere, perhaps on GSC.
IF she wants to tell her story, she has a good bit of rewriting work to do.
And that's nothing to be ashamed of.
But it's also nothing to boast about at this point.
“Charlene Edge has created a deeply human story of her conversion, commitment, disillusion, and disaffiliation from an evangelical Christian cult movement, The Way International. With balance and grace, she gives the reader a compelling portrait of the group’s leader and his fraught relationship with his followers that stands as a warning beacon to all those drawn to charismatic prophets and their high-demand communities.”
Edge, Charlene L. Undertow . New Wings Press, LLC. Kindle Edition.
I challenge anyone who would take issue with my view to point out where in the substack there's anything approaching a deeply human story of the author's conversion, commitment, disillusion (etc.) with TWI.
My title invites the question, what makes The Way International a fundamentalist cult? Here is the crux of my answer: Wierwille believed in scriptural inerrancy, a cornerstone of Christian fundamentalism. As the biblical scholar James Barr tells us: “It is this function of the Bible as supreme religious symbol that justifies us in seeing fundamentalism as a quite separate religious form.”
Edge, Charlene L. Undertow . New Wings Press, LLC. Kindle Edition.
How many words does the substack article take to say essentially that much?
In the winter of 1987, my Sociology professor clutched a stub of white chalk, drew a pyramid spanning the height of the blackboard, and crowned it with an X. Thirty students, many half my age, surrounded me in a beige classroom. None of them knew my secret.
“Okay. Last week we discussed gender inequality in the workplace,” Dr. Schaffer said. “Tonight, we’ll examine autocratic groups and how they operate. My not-so-elegant drawing represents their hierarchical power structure. Religious ones are often called ‘sects,’ or ‘cults.’ By the way, I’m saying, s-e-c-t-s, not s-e-x.” When laughs died down, she said, “The leader is X.” She underlined the X. “He or she dictates the group’s beliefs and behavior.” Dr. Schaffer straightened her red print scarf and examined our faces one by one. Students rearranged notebooks and clicked their pens. Tonight’s lecture was far from news to me, but I drew the pyramid anyway, mimicking other students, trying to fit in.
Edge, Charlene L. Undertow (p. 1). New Wings Press, LLC. Kindle Edition.
This is how Undertow begins. If you're still reading my comments, by all means, tell me what's the difference between Undertow page 1 and any part of the substack article?
How and why did the author decide to associate with TWI? Who told her what? How did she feel when the first person/people witnessed to her?
That's something that might grasp the attention of a reader.
Each of us here on GSC has her/his/their own story to tell... tell IT.
ok now you have hijacked this thread with 5 posts in a row that the topic is Undertow and writing memoirs including why we should do it.
Can you please go start your own thread with this line of discussion? Or continue it on the thread entitled “Undertow”?
One post or two is one thing but 5 in a row on a completely separate topic is a hijacking of the thread.
And please think about how you are coming off commenting about those who ARE writing memoirs.
This girl was in TWI for 2 years a relatively short period of time wrote her own story augmented by others notes all footnotes.
Are you celebrating her? Or has this been more of a page or two containing criticism of how she did it as well as a running line of attack on her story.
My IMPRESSION of Jennifer's essay is that she was citing data. I wanted to hear and relate to her STORY.
This TED Talk given in February 2021, by Karen Eber, on how your brain responds to stories, and why they are CRUCIAL (for anyone wanting to get the attention of their readers and listeners).
What do you want to do with your STORY?
I hope you want your stories to matter more than they'd be if they were only facts.
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Nathan_Jr
I really despise these euphemisms, but charlatans and criminals wouldn’t leave the house without them. The media seems to have normalized this linguistic apologetic by referring to rape as sexual
Stayed Too Long
Since being so totally taken in and deceived by VPW and TWI I now find myself being very critical of things that people say. When an ad appears on TV my immediate reaction is what is the hook they are
penworks
I admire Jennifer's bravery in sharing her traumatic experiences and related information on Substack. Here's my blog today that includes a link to her post: Speaking of "Way" Stories ... | C
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Nathan_Jr
Thanks, Cockfull!
A quote from the linked substack:
It was constantly reinforced that women were inferior in teaching and treatment and we were told not to use any birth control, leading to many unwanted pregnancies. The Way would then support and pay for abortions, which were not a sin according to their teachings.
So, abortion is the only form of birth control endorsed by TWI.
What accuracy! What mathematical exactness! What scientific precision!
Mmmph!
(A perfect dovetail with another presently active thread.)
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chockfull
I had a PE coach in HS that told a bunch of us one day that after getting to know us for a semester, he was going to recommend retroactive birth control.
Now back to regularly scheduled abortion convo.
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Rocky
I've been trying to figure out why this substack doesn't sit right with me.
The way this person wrote it, she is NOT telling HER story.
That won't mean anything to anyone who needs to hear HER STORY.
Her story might help people needing to escape the cult or wise up before they get caught up in it.
This quote is just weak sauce.
WHAT did this human see and hear? Did SHE experience an unwanted pregnancy? If so, how did it make her feel? How did she cope with the emotional and medical ramifications of the pregnancy? What was HER outcome?
Maybe this human writer needs to read some of the work on vulnerability Brené Brown has published.
Btw, a discussion about abortion policies in and of itself is a political topic.
A retelling of history of TWI is retelling of historical events. For them to matter to readers, they have to come off as authentic.
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Rocky
That would be a violation of GSC rules.
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Rocky
Yeah, those two definitely are not reasonable Christlike models of behavior. But so what?
What is the purpose of any person writing any memoir or memoir like short piece?
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Rocky
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08N866JX4/
A very quick search on Goodreads.com brought this title, Writing the Memoir: From Truth to Art by Judith Barrington.
I haven't read the book, but about 20 years ago I took a college class on Newswriting, because I was working for a small newspaper and didn't have a journalism degree.
The instructor was a seasoned journalist and editor. Beside the basic who, what, when, where, how, and why, he drove home that news writing is NOT done well in passive voice.
That's even more important in memoir. EVERY human has a story, actually LOTS of stories.
Stories make humanity sane, actually. What in the world did humans do BEFORE the internet? Before message boards? Before the printing press?
If they wanted to effectively communicate important lessons from generation to generation, they had to have LOTS of storytellers.
Everyone here CAN be a good storyteller, even Mike. Even me.
But it's a skill that needs to be developed and sharpened throughout one's life in order to be effective.
/rant
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chockfull
She has a blend of her story plus supporting evidence which consists of others stories all with referenced sources unlike “the collaterals”.
i mean maybe those of you heavily invested in writing memoirs can figure out how to stay in first person and come off “more authentic”.
Rather than be irritated by her switching from first person to third person voice I look at it like at least she did a better job than her “father in da Verd”.
The Way Internationals continual denial of plagiarism claims has karma coming back around to bite them in the butt with accurately footnoted anecdotal accounts of immorality.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
She can do what she wants, obviously. It's not a matter of me (anything). It's a matter of what she wants to do or accomplish with what she writes.
More power to her. However, for her to see more impact (power) from her writing, she's got some work to do.
If all she wants is to say it, great. She'll get all the feedback her readers care to give her.
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Nathan_Jr
The opening two paragraphs to her story…or account… or examination… or observation… or whatever one needs to cal it:
The experiences related in this story are mine. This report is based on my personal recollections supported by an archive of contemporaneously written notes, journals, and photographs*. Most of the information about The Way’s beliefs and practices I either witnessed firsthand or were reported directly to me by members of and recruiters for The Way. This report is highly factual, and like every report may contain an error. I apologize for any such errors, but they are few and most likely superficial in nature. The truth is that this high control group still follows many of these spiritually and financially abusive practices in one form or the other. They have never apologized or publicly acknowledged responsibility for any harm that has come to their followers. And that is a true shame.
My recounting is corroborated by hundreds of reports and articles about the Way online. In addition there are thousands of personal experiences recounted in social media posts that echo my memories and validate many reports of extremism, sexual and financial abuse. At least three books have been written about the fake scholarship, traumatic experiences and abuse in The Way. These authors and myself all fell victim to The Way under Victor P. Wierwille’s direction.
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Rocky
Does she provide footnotes to the hundreds of corroborating reports and articles?
That's still weak sauce. It doesn't present anything that could convince anyone who doesn't already believe it.
IOW, confirmation bias.
In order for it to be anything with communicative power, she needs to rewrite the entire first draft
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Rocky
That's her claim. And you believe her why? Because you already believed it before you read it?
If you didn't have a massive amount of confirmation bias, what in her essay convinces you of any claim she makes?
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Rocky
If you need a refresher, I recommend Undertow. Not that Penworks is soliciting praise. She's not.
But Undertow is HER STORY. Can any reader on this GSC thread reasonably characterize the substack article similarly to how a cult researcher characterized Undertow?
“Charlene Edge writes with clarity and sensitivity. This memoir on her experiences in The Way International will help readers understand the subtleties and complexities of cultic groups.”
Edge, Charlene L. Undertow . New Wings Press, LLC. Kindle Edition.
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Rocky
Here's what Karl Kahler, author of The Cult that Snapped wrote about Undertow:
“A tenderly written, intensely personal narrative about being swallowed alive by a cult. Charlene Edge’s encounters with the abusive Victor Paul Wierwille and her firsthand observation of how The Way’s Research Department twisted the Scriptures are enlightening and chilling.”
Edge, Charlene L. Undertow . New Wings Press, LLC. Kindle Edition.
Is there ANYTHING in the substack that might be tenderly written, or intensely personal about having been swallowed alive by a cult?
The person who wrote that substack took a HUGE risk emotionally. At least I figure she did.
But did she really accomplish what she intended? I don't know what she intended.
But all she seems to have accomplished is to reiterate what she read elsewhere, perhaps on GSC.
IF she wants to tell her story, she has a good bit of rewriting work to do.
And that's nothing to be ashamed of.
But it's also nothing to boast about at this point.
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Rocky
Another professor wrote this about Undertow:
“Charlene Edge has created a deeply human story of her conversion, commitment, disillusion, and disaffiliation from an evangelical Christian cult movement, The Way International. With balance and grace, she gives the reader a compelling portrait of the group’s leader and his fraught relationship with his followers that stands as a warning beacon to all those drawn to charismatic prophets and their high-demand communities.”
Edge, Charlene L. Undertow . New Wings Press, LLC. Kindle Edition.
I challenge anyone who would take issue with my view to point out where in the substack there's anything approaching a deeply human story of the author's conversion, commitment, disillusion (etc.) with TWI.
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Rocky
Near the end of Undertow's Preface,
My title invites the question, what makes The Way International a fundamentalist cult? Here is the crux of my answer: Wierwille believed in scriptural inerrancy, a cornerstone of Christian fundamentalism. As the biblical scholar James Barr tells us: “It is this function of the Bible as supreme religious symbol that justifies us in seeing fundamentalism as a quite separate religious form.”
Edge, Charlene L. Undertow . New Wings Press, LLC. Kindle Edition.
How many words does the substack article take to say essentially that much?
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Rocky
If they find out, they’ll think I’m weird.
In the winter of 1987, my Sociology professor clutched a stub of white chalk, drew a pyramid spanning the height of the blackboard, and crowned it with an X. Thirty students, many half my age, surrounded me in a beige classroom. None of them knew my secret.
“Okay. Last week we discussed gender inequality in the workplace,” Dr. Schaffer said. “Tonight, we’ll examine autocratic groups and how they operate. My not-so-elegant drawing represents their hierarchical power structure. Religious ones are often called ‘sects,’ or ‘cults.’ By the way, I’m saying, s-e-c-t-s, not s-e-x.” When laughs died down, she said, “The leader is X.” She underlined the X. “He or she dictates the group’s beliefs and behavior.” Dr. Schaffer straightened her red print scarf and examined our faces one by one. Students rearranged notebooks and clicked their pens. Tonight’s lecture was far from news to me, but I drew the pyramid anyway, mimicking other students, trying to fit in.
Edge, Charlene L. Undertow (p. 1). New Wings Press, LLC. Kindle Edition.
This is how Undertow begins. If you're still reading my comments, by all means, tell me what's the difference between Undertow page 1 and any part of the substack article?
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Rocky
How and why did the author decide to associate with TWI? Who told her what? How did she feel when the first person/people witnessed to her?
That's something that might grasp the attention of a reader.
Each of us here on GSC has her/his/their own story to tell... tell IT.
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chockfull
ok now you have hijacked this thread with 5 posts in a row that the topic is Undertow and writing memoirs including why we should do it.
Can you please go start your own thread with this line of discussion? Or continue it on the thread entitled “Undertow”?
One post or two is one thing but 5 in a row on a completely separate topic is a hijacking of the thread.
And please think about how you are coming off commenting about those who ARE writing memoirs.
This girl was in TWI for 2 years a relatively short period of time wrote her own story augmented by others notes all footnotes.
Are you celebrating her? Or has this been more of a page or two containing criticism of how she did it as well as a running line of attack on her story.
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chockfull
I actually think exactly the opposite. This girl was involved with TWI only 2 years and look at all the detrimental effects she suffered.
That to me speaks so much more loudly than whatever authenticity you think she is missing by including others stories also footnoted.
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Rocky
Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate your criticism. Glad what she wrote speaks to you.
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penworks
I admire Jennifer's bravery in sharing her traumatic experiences and related information on Substack.
Here's my blog today that includes a link to her post:
Speaking of "Way" Stories ... | Charlene L. Edge (charleneedge.com)
Cheers, Jennifer.
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Nathan_Jr
Mmmph
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Rocky
Perhaps I was being a Lucy Van Pelt...
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Rocky
My IMPRESSION of Jennifer's essay is that she was citing data. I wanted to hear and relate to her STORY.
This TED Talk given in February 2021, by Karen Eber, on how your brain responds to stories, and why they are CRUCIAL (for anyone wanting to get the attention of their readers and listeners).
What do you want to do with your STORY?
I hope you want your stories to matter more than they'd be if they were only facts.
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