When I was a teenager and love bombed by the WOWs I was 100% blissfully ignorant. I would have to say over time and conditioning that turned into willful ignorance.
And WHY do we buy those demands? It's certainly NOT logic.
Could it be the human condition of needing/wanting to belong to a group with whom we FEEL comfortable, sharing beleeefs in common?
This need to belong seems especially strong in the youth, the codependent and the immature. Cultural hegemony makes sure we find our group to belong and mark divisions accordingly.
It’s something to pay attention to. Why this need to belong? Maybe it’s not a problem, but how can we know unless we inquire? How can we see what we are doing unless we look?
The older I get, the more comfortable and secure I am with myself, the less I feel a need to belong to any group in order to feel comfortable and secure.
It’s something to pay attention to. Why this need to belong? Maybe it’s not a problem, but how can we know unless we inquire? How can we see what we are doing unless we look?
The older I get, the more comfortable and secure I am with myself, the less I feel a need to belong to any group in order to feel comfortable and secure.
1) Because humans are inherently social animals.
2) The older you and I get, we are indeed more comfortable and secure in our own skins. Is that because we have FOUND our "tribe?" Those with whom we most relate and from whom we receive/give the most mutual support? I think, maybe.
Also, I read something a few days about about the prevalence of organisms, from individual cells to individuals, to colonies, to populations functioning more naturally together, than independently. If I can find that piece, I'll share it here.
And I certainly DO agree it's something important to pay attention to.
The basic mystery about ant colonies is that there is no management. A functioning organization with no one in charge is so UNLIKE the way humans operate as to be virtually inconceivable. There is NO central control. No insect issues commands to another or instructs it to do things a certain way. -- Deborah Gordon, Ants at Work, 1999.
2) The older you and I get, we are indeed more comfortable and secure in our own skins. Is that because we have FOUND our "tribe?" Those with whom we most relate and from whom we receive/give the most mutual support? I think, maybe.
Also, I read something a few days about about the prevalence of organisms, from individual cells to individuals, to colonies, to populations functioning more naturally together, than independently. If I can find that piece, I'll share it here.
And I certainly DO agree it's something important to pay attention to.
Good perhaps if it is important to pay attention to you should start a thread on that topic
Chock, I think you’ve proposed TWI is very similar to JW. I see it now. Oh, do I see it!
I’ve been reading threads here https://reddit.com/r/exjw/s/DyxZAxIuy3. From the org structure to the ever-morphing, doctrinal bulls hit to the manipulative control, it’s uncanny!
Terminology is slightly different, but the meanings and implications are exactly the same.
Just so sad, gross and stupid.
The crisis of cult - religious, ideological, political, national - is the single greatest existential threat to mankind. IMO
Chock, I think you’ve proposed TWI is very similar to JW. I see it now. Oh, do I see it!
I’ve been reading threads here https://reddit.com/r/exjw/s/DyxZAxIuy3. From the org structure to the ever-morphing, doctrinal bulls hit to the manipulative control, it’s uncanny!
Terminology is slightly different, but the meanings and implications are exactly the same.
Just so sad, gross and stupid.
The crisis of cult - religious, ideological, political, national - is the single greatest existential threat to mankind. IMO
I find certain characteristics of different cults remind me of TWI. The whole Plaffy witnessing running classes to me reminds me of the JWs and their dogged determination to “witness” meaning putting a watchtower pub in someone's hands or referring someone to JW.org that seems pretty similar.
The Mormons have all their positions as voluntary like bishops and Q70 or Q12 but demand the tithe out of followers. That to me is similar to the Way how they handle staffing and money.
The Way Corps to me seems a lot like Scientology’s Sea Org. A billion year commitment to making the world “clear”. Using people paying them nothing shuffling them around doing the bidding of LRH or Miscavidge.
So to me The Way seems like a blend of a number of cult tactics and characteristics. Like a cult souffle.
Is not the topic of cults inherently related to the characteristics of and interaction of social animals (humans), groups, and that of leaders?
Why would you not be interested in imagining, or exploring evolution of cults, social animals, groups, and leadership? Just asking.
I think this is a very valid question because there is inherent power in groups. The Catholic church talks about the mystery of the "communion of saints". Haven't quite figured out that one yet but it's a topic to explore.
For more on the topic of cults that I've written since 2015, check out these posts on my website. They are free and available to pass along to others by sharing links to them. Enjoy.
A while ago, I shared some things about the International House of Prayer Kansas City (IHOPKC) and its founder Mike Bickle. I learned a couple of days ago that he is being investigated by the church for allegations of sexual misconduct “where the marriage covenant was not honored." You can read more about it on this website:
I have kept in touch with Susan Tuma who is a leader of a chat room like GSC where those who have left IHOP can go to discuss issues and get some healing. She knows Bickle well and has shared with me that the accusations are true and that they are much worse than I can imagine. Unlike vp and twi, this guy and his church is hugely significant within the Charismatic movement internationally. He holds a lot of power, but I've been told that he is very manipulative and likely a pathological narcissist.
Susan also shared about IHOP leadership hiring a law firm/lawyer that is personal friends with Dave Sliker on their executive leadership team. She shares the leadership there is deeply untrustworthy and that is why she helped to write a petition demanding they hire an appropriate investigative team.
I signed her petition yesterday and am passing it along here if any of you want to sign it as well.
Only once did I wonder if a post of mine had been deleted (can't remember now what it was about), but I found it disappeared along with some others when GSC downloaded that new program.
About the video, you know how twi whitewashed the truth about vp (and is still doing it); you can expect the same to be going on here. Bickle has agreed to the church's terms to stop all ministering in person and on social media but he has many devoted followers in leadership.
This is the man who led that church into an extreme teaching of the song of Solomon being about the bride of Christ and Jesus. All romantic and sexual phrases and verses were how their followers began to relate to Jesus in their words, prayers and songs written by them. His end times teachings are horrendous as well. I came to learn about this guy through the Vineyard church I was attending.
Anyway, I don't believe the truth about the sexual misconduct will ever come to light if the investigation is not a totally independent one. So thanks again to anyone who takes a few minutes to add their name to the petition!
The version of this someone sent me yesterday had a claim about it being illegal to quote Way Corps grads. That was a deal breaker for me. But this one, though VERY long appears to not have that claim in it. I appreciate her formatting of Victor's name.
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Nathan_Jr
I really despise these euphemisms, but charlatans and criminals wouldn’t leave the house without them. The media seems to have normalized this linguistic apologetic by referring to rape as sexual
Stayed Too Long
Since being so totally taken in and deceived by VPW and TWI I now find myself being very critical of things that people say. When an ad appears on TV my immediate reaction is what is the hook they are
penworks
I admire Jennifer's bravery in sharing her traumatic experiences and related information on Substack. Here's my blog today that includes a link to her post: Speaking of "Way" Stories ... | C
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Nathan_Jr
“Above all, stand.”
”Commitment”
”Just beleeeve it.”
”Rely NOT on your own understanding.”
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Rocky
And WHY do we buy those demands? It's certainly NOT logic.
Could it be the human condition of needing/wanting to belong to a group with whom we FEEL comfortable, sharing beleeefs in common?
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Nathan_Jr
This need to belong seems especially strong in the youth, the codependent and the immature. Cultural hegemony makes sure we find our group to belong and mark divisions accordingly.
It’s something to pay attention to. Why this need to belong? Maybe it’s not a problem, but how can we know unless we inquire? How can we see what we are doing unless we look?
The older I get, the more comfortable and secure I am with myself, the less I feel a need to belong to any group in order to feel comfortable and secure.
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Rocky
1) Because humans are inherently social animals.
2) The older you and I get, we are indeed more comfortable and secure in our own skins. Is that because we have FOUND our "tribe?" Those with whom we most relate and from whom we receive/give the most mutual support? I think, maybe.
Also, I read something a few days about about the prevalence of organisms, from individual cells to individuals, to colonies, to populations functioning more naturally together, than independently. If I can find that piece, I'll share it here.
And I certainly DO agree it's something important to pay attention to.
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Rocky
Ants at Work by Deborah Gordon.
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Rocky
Ants predate humans by hundreds of millions of years. They have evolved with ways to avoid many of the conflicts we humans still struggle with.
I hope it won't take humanity that long to figure out how to solve such problems/conflicts.
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chockfull
This thread is about cults and their similarity of operation to TWI.
It is not about ants or the struggle of humanity as a broad topic. Please keep comments on topic.
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chockfull
Good perhaps if it is important to pay attention to you should start a thread on that topic
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Rocky
Oh, okay.
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Rocky
Is not the topic of cults inherently related to the characteristics of and interaction of social animals (humans), groups, and that of leaders?
Why would you not be interested in imagining, or exploring evolution of cults, social animals, groups, and leadership? Just asking.
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Nathan_Jr
Chock, I think you’ve proposed TWI is very similar to JW. I see it now. Oh, do I see it!
I’ve been reading threads here https://reddit.com/r/exjw/s/DyxZAxIuy3. From the org structure to the ever-morphing, doctrinal bulls hit to the manipulative control, it’s uncanny!
Terminology is slightly different, but the meanings and implications are exactly the same.
Just so sad, gross and stupid.
The crisis of cult - religious, ideological, political, national - is the single greatest existential threat to mankind. IMO
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Rocky
And wouldn't it be intriguing to imagine HOW humankind could evolve to somehow not depend on cults behaviors to survive, as individuals or groups?
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Nathan_Jr
Right.
No. Not I.
Take this to another thread, if you want.
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chockfull
I find certain characteristics of different cults remind me of TWI. The whole Plaffy witnessing running classes to me reminds me of the JWs and their dogged determination to “witness” meaning putting a watchtower pub in someone's hands or referring someone to JW.org that seems pretty similar.
The Mormons have all their positions as voluntary like bishops and Q70 or Q12 but demand the tithe out of followers. That to me is similar to the Way how they handle staffing and money.
The Way Corps to me seems a lot like Scientology’s Sea Org. A billion year commitment to making the world “clear”. Using people paying them nothing shuffling them around doing the bidding of LRH or Miscavidge.
So to me The Way seems like a blend of a number of cult tactics and characteristics. Like a cult souffle.
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oldiesman
I think this is a very valid question because there is inherent power in groups. The Catholic church talks about the mystery of the "communion of saints". Haven't quite figured out that one yet but it's a topic to explore.
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chockfull
Didn’t say I wasn’t interested in the topic just that it’s off topic and to discuss it on a new thread.
You acknowledged in a subsequent post but all posters didn’t read that.
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Rocky
IOW, I disagree that my question was off topic. But I won't push it.
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penworks
For more on the topic of cults that I've written since 2015, check out these posts on my website. They are free and available to pass along to others by sharing links to them. Enjoy.
Cults Archives | Page 11 of 11 | Charlene L. Edge (charleneedge.com)
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penworks
From one of my upcoming blog posts:
International Cult Awareness Day
November 18th is set aside to honor victims of dangerous cults and help others avoid the lure of harmful groups.
For more information on this topic of public interest around the world, visit here.
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Charity
A while ago, I shared some things about the International House of Prayer Kansas City (IHOPKC) and its founder Mike Bickle. I learned a couple of days ago that he is being investigated by the church for allegations of sexual misconduct “where the marriage covenant was not honored." You can read more about it on this website:
https://www.christianpost.com/news/mike-bickle-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-by-multiple-women.html
I have kept in touch with Susan Tuma who is a leader of a chat room like GSC where those who have left IHOP can go to discuss issues and get some healing. She knows Bickle well and has shared with me that the accusations are true and that they are much worse than I can imagine. Unlike vp and twi, this guy and his church is hugely significant within the Charismatic movement internationally. He holds a lot of power, but I've been told that he is very manipulative and likely a pathological narcissist.
Susan also shared about IHOP leadership hiring a law firm/lawyer that is personal friends with Dave Sliker on their executive leadership team. She shares the leadership there is deeply untrustworthy and that is why she helped to write a petition demanding they hire an appropriate investigative team.
I signed her petition yesterday and am passing it along here if any of you want to sign it as well.
https://chng.it/4XgwMrvxHw
P.S. Hopefully this post won't get deleted by the moderators.
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Rocky
I don't see any reason why it would be deleted. Have you had posts deleted before that you thought should not have been?
The person in question apparently IS a public figure who has been credibly accused.
IHOPKC also posted a video on FB. https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=172641609261928
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Charity
Only once did I wonder if a post of mine had been deleted (can't remember now what it was about), but I found it disappeared along with some others when GSC downloaded that new program.
About the video, you know how twi whitewashed the truth about vp (and is still doing it); you can expect the same to be going on here. Bickle has agreed to the church's terms to stop all ministering in person and on social media but he has many devoted followers in leadership.
This is the man who led that church into an extreme teaching of the song of Solomon being about the bride of Christ and Jesus. All romantic and sexual phrases and verses were how their followers began to relate to Jesus in their words, prayers and songs written by them. His end times teachings are horrendous as well. I came to learn about this guy through the Vineyard church I was attending.
Anyway, I don't believe the truth about the sexual misconduct will ever come to light if the investigation is not a totally independent one. So thanks again to anyone who takes a few minutes to add their name to the petition!
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chockfull
Another personal account of damage experienced by a member of TWI. This person highlights the step by step indoctrination process….
https://jenniferhaha.substack.com/p/black-friday-cyber-monday-cult-expose?utm_campaign=post
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Rocky
Victor P. Wierwille!
The version of this someone sent me yesterday had a claim about it being illegal to quote Way Corps grads. That was a deal breaker for me. But this one, though VERY long appears to not have that claim in it. I appreciate her formatting of Victor's name.
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