God’s Budget and Double Doors .... On the Scarcity of Miracles

[chockfull]

5 hours ago, T-Bone said:

where does it say that in the Bible?

 

Where are the double doors mentioned in Genesis? Where’s that documentation you promised in February? 

He exceeded his budget on good will and now the double doors can hit him where God split him?

[OldSkool]

4 hours ago, T-Bone said:

But you left out the part where Aaron’s snake swallowed up the magicians’ snakes!

 

ya...well....like that would alter mikes narrative...and would be a negative confession....so theres that...

[OldSkool]

5 hours ago, T-Bone said:

where does it say that in the Bible?

It doesnt...its in PFLAP version 5346, page 194, paragraph 6, section III, subsection MXMXXII

 

Its really clear in the original text.

Edited March 9, 2023 by OldSkool

[T-Bone]

Ooh ooh ooh – thought of another one!

There was the time 450 prophets of Baal had a budget cuts crisis – fortunately Elijah worked for a God who wasn’t financially strapped: 

20So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel. 21Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him.”

But the people said nothing.

22Then Elijah said to them, “I am the only one of the Lord’s prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. 23Get two bulls for us. Let Baal’s prophets choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. 24Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord. The god who answers by fire—he is God.”

Then all the people said, “What you say is good.”

25Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire.” 26So they took the bull given them and prepared it.

Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. “Baal, answer us!” they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.

27At noon Elijah began to taunt them. “Shout louder!” he said. “Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened.” 28So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.

30Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come here to me.” They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the Lord, which had been torn down. 31Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the Lord had come, saying, “Your name shall be Israel.” 32With the stones he built an altar in the name of the Lord, and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahs ^a of seed. 33He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, “Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood.”

34“Do it again,” he said, and they did it again.

“Do it a third time,” he ordered, and they did it the third time. 35The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench.

36At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37Answer me, Lord, answer me, so these people will know that you, Lord, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again.”

38Then the fire of the Lord fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.

39When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The Lord—he is God! The Lord—he is God!”

40Then Elijah commanded them, “Seize the prophets of Baal. Don’t let anyone get away!” They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there.

1 Kings 18 NIV

 

[OldSkool]

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

There was the time 450 prophets of Baal had a budget cuts crisis – fortunately Elijah worked for a God who wasn’t financially strapped: 

Well...unless it was 451 prophets of Baal....then. Ya over budget...

[Charity]

4 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Ooh ooh ooh – thought of another one!

There was the time 450 prophets of Baal had a budget cuts crisis – fortunately Elijah worked for a God who wasn’t financially strapped: 

20So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel. 21Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him.”

But the people said nothing.

22Then Elijah said to them, “I am the only one of the Lord’s prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. 23Get two bulls for us. Let Baal’s prophets choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. 24Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord. The god who answers by fire—he is God.”

Then all the people said, “What you say is good.”

25Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire.” 26So they took the bull given them and prepared it.

Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. “Baal, answer us!” they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.

27At noon Elijah began to taunt them. “Shout louder!” he said. “Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened.” 28So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.

30Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come here to me.” They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the Lord, which had been torn down. 31Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the Lord had come, saying, “Your name shall be Israel.” 32With the stones he built an altar in the name of the Lord, and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahs ^a of seed. 33He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, “Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood.”

34“Do it again,” he said, and they did it again.

“Do it a third time,” he ordered, and they did it the third time. 35The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench.

36At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37Answer me, Lord, answer me, so these people will know that you, Lord, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again.”

38Then the fire of the Lord fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.

39When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The Lord—he is God! The Lord—he is God!”

40Then Elijah commanded them, “Seize the prophets of Baal. Don’t let anyone get away!” They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there.

1 Kings 18 NIV

 

T-bone - an awesome example of God's power.  Mike should forget about budgets and doors and spend some time reading the Psalms of David and see his praises for God during the good times and the bad.  This was the man who stood up to Goliath as a boy, survived all of Saul's attempts to kill him and never lost a battle.  Even though in the Psalms David often cried out to God in his distress (who wouldn't blame him), he also gave praise and glory to God in whom he always trusted to give him the victory.  God is so much greater than the devil!

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Charity

[Mike]

13 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Where in the Bible does God seem to tell you He has limitations in this spiritual war?

 

I see this in the courtroom scene in the Book of Job portrays God as a judge. 

The devil plays a role similar to a prosecutor.

After hearing the devil's case we see an odd thing.  God seems to rule in the devil's favor, and then seems to give Job over to the devil for torture.

A number of religious people I have discussed this passage with insist that God is good and His handing over Job therefor had to be good.  I could never accept that, in the light of God being light and in Him is no darkness at all.

If this were a secular courtroom, and a judge did that kind of action, we could expect the judge to possibly say something like "My hands are tied. Based on the testimony and evidence, I am constrained by the law to rule this way."

That is how I see God saying "Behold, all that he has is in thy power."

I hear it in a sense of, "YIKES !!!, all that he has is in thy power."

God reluctantly gave Job over to the adversary; His ruling was against His will.  However, He was sharp to see that He could draw the line, and demand that Job’s life be spared.

God was fighting for Job, but He was limited to the laws He had set up.

Later, after God had successfully taught Job to believe rightly, God was able to have His will be done, and Job was restored.  But there was that temporary time where God’s will on Earth was thwarted.

That is one area of scripture where I see God being limited, due to His own wise and just doing.

*/*/*

This is very similar to how God cannot lie. 
God cannot go against His own Word.
God cannot go against His own laws.

*/*/*

Daniel chapter 9 is another passage where God’s angels are clearly limited and hindered, but still winning in the end.

[Mike]

13 hours ago, T-Bone said:

...but what makes you think God is subject to any budgetary constraints?

So far, with the Double Doors scripture list, I showed that God's self imposed limitations are TIMEWISE.  By that, I mean the major interactions are short spurts in time, or peaks, where door opens and then closes. 

That is a time budget, as opposed to the doors always open.

Soon I will post the budgetary verses where the total AMOUNT of "juice" is budgeted.  

That is a "juice" budget, as opposed to an infinite amount.

*/*/*

Here the juice is an analogy for something "quantity" in the spiritual realm, and not the measurable physical realm.

An example would be where Elisha asked Elijah for a double portion of spirit. That is measured, and limited, and not infinite.

In contrast, Jesus was given the spirit without measure.

 

 

 

 

[Nathan_Jr]

Poor victor "taught" that his bit-chass god's ability is equal to his willingness.

But in Job a conceptual, allegorical god's ability and willingness are not equal, rather, they are contingent upon this god teaching Job to beleeeve rightly?

I'm sure this contradiction is merely apparent, and with enough fudging and logical magic, it all can be made to fit...

 

like 

 

a

 

hand

 

in 

 

a

Edited March 9, 2023 by Nathan_Jr
glove

[T-Bone]

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

 

 

I see this in the courtroom scene in the Book of Job portrays God as a judge. 

 

 

The devil plays a role similar to a prosecutor.

 

 

After hearing the devil's case we see an odd thing.  God seems to rule in the devil's favor, and then seems to give Job over to the devil for torture.

 

 

A number of religious people I have discussed this passage with insist that God is good and His handing over Job therefor had to be good.  I could never accept that, in the light of God being light and in Him is no darkness at all.

 

 

If this were a secular courtroom, and a judge did that kind of action, we could expect the judge to possibly say something like "My hands are tied. Based on the testimony and evidence, I am constrained by the law to rule this way."

 

 

That is how I see God saying "Behold, all that he has is in thy power."

 

 

I hear it in a sense of, "YIKES !!!, all that he has is in thy power."

 

 

God reluctantly gave Job over to the adversary; His ruling was against His will.  However, He was sharp to see that He could draw the line, and demand that Job’s life be spared.

 

 

God was fighting for Job, but He was limited to the laws He had set up.

 

 

Later, after God had successfully taught Job to believe rightly, God was able to have His will be done, and Job was restored.  But there was that temporary time where God’s will on Earth was thwarted.

 

 

That is one area of scripture where I see God being limited, due to His own wise and just doing.

 

 

*/*/*

 

 

This is very similar to how God cannot lie. 
God cannot go against His own Word.
God cannot go against His own laws.

 

 

*/*/*

 

 

Daniel chapter 9 is another passage where God’s angels are clearly limited and hindered, but still winning in the end.

 

 

I think you have a skewed modern worldview of the culturalism represented in Job. Due to budget cuts I can’t repeat everything I said about idiom of permission in previous post - so I leave it up to you to review that - also someone mentioned theodicy on this thread - you need to check out that as well - The book of Job is like an ancient thesis defending the righteousness of God…He is not a wimp in the courtroom like you portray him. 
 

already handled Daniel 9 - you’ve got some thread reviewing to do Mike 

sorry for the short post - budget cuts, budget cuts, budget cuts.

[Mike]

13 hours ago, T-Bone said:

where does it say that in the Bible?

Where are the double doors mentioned in Genesis? Where’s that documentation you promised in February? 

The devil's presence in Eden implies God allowed him to be there.

Otherwise, had God forbidden it, we'd see a major failure of His power.

*/*/*

The double presence of God and the serpent imply the door for the serpent being open. 

I gave half of the documentation days ago.  The other half is being converted from old notes to something you can easily read.

 

[T-Bone]

6 minutes ago, Mike said:

So far, with the Double Doors scripture list, I showed that God's self imposed limitations are TIMEWISE.  By

So far you haven’t shown or proved Jack $hit!

[Mike]

13 hours ago, T-Bone said:

But you left out the part where Aaron’s snake swallowed up the magicians’ snakes!

 

10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magiciansalso did the same things by their secret arts:12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs.13 Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said...Exodus 7

Yes, I did leave it out. 

I didn't feel I needed to include it.
Everyone know what happened.

It was the double spike in power that I was showing.

[T-Bone]

2 minutes ago, Mike said:

The devil's presence in Eden implies God allowed him to be there.

Otherwise, had God forbidden it, we'd see a major failure of His power.

You’re assuming “access was limited” - Genesis does not suggest any such limitations; and you’re also contradicting your other argument in Job where Satan is “negotiating “ with God in a courtroom.

[Mike]

3 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Ooh ooh ooh – thought of another one!

You found another passage lacking cherry.
But not an anti-cherry passage.

I am not saying this is a law that happens in the writing of scripture.

I am saying this is a law that happens in the real life. 

Some scriptures seem point out the double spikes; some do not.\

The latter are the "lacking cherry" verses.

(remember cherry comes from me accused of cherrypicking)

 

[Mike]

1 minute ago, T-Bone said:

You’re assuming “access was limited” - Genesis does not suggest any such limitations; and you’re also contradicting your other argument in Job where Satan is “negotiating “ with God in a courtroom.

 

Please expand this for me.  It is a little too compact for me to follow the details.

[Mike]

8 hours ago, OldSkool said:

ya...well....like that would alter mikes narrative...and would be a negative confession....so theres that...

Tell me how it would alter it.
I was under the impression it was irrelevant to my point.

[T-Bone]

4 minutes ago, Mike said:

Yes, I did leave it out. 

I didn't feel I needed to include it.
Everyone know what happened.

It was the double spike in power that I was showing.

Nope!

maybe you didn’t think it would help your argument. The context shows God is more powerful! You used a double spike of bull-$hit.

[T-Bone]

4 minutes ago, Mike said:

You found another passage lacking cherry.
But not an anti-cherry passage.

I am not saying this is a law that happens in the writing of scripture.

I am saying this is a law that happens in the real life. 

Some scriptures seem point out the double spikes; some do not.\

The latter are the "lacking cherry" verses.

(remember cherry comes from me accused of cherrypicking)

 

You have yet to prove your “law” that happens in real life! Where’s the evidence?!?! You certainly have NOT offered scriptural evidence for your “law”. Dream on Mike. 

[T-Bone]

16 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

Please expand this for me.  It is a little too compact for me to follow the details.

Expand it yourself - look throughout Genesis and see if you can find scripture to show Satan and company have limited access…so far all your reasoning is based on conjecture.

 

as a courtesy to your budget department I suggest you settle out of court. Scripture supports the idea the devil is free to be out and about doing his best to screw things up:

 

Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
 

Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings. I Peter 5

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by T-Bone
Clarity

[Mike]

11 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

 

maybe you didn’t think it would help your argument. The context shows God is more powerful! You used a double spike of bull-$hit.

Yikes!  You are really missing my points.

What I was showing had nothing to do with who won a particular skirmish or battle.  It has to do with the isolation IN TIME that the major interactions occur. 

Next time I will include that omitted verse. 
I was only trying to cut down on the length of my post.
 

[T-Bone]

32 minutes ago, Mike said:

Here the juice is an analogy for something "quantity" in the spiritual realm, and not the measurable physical realm.

An example would be where Elisha asked Elijah for a double portion of spirit. That is measured, and limited, and not infinite.

In contrast, Jesus was given the spirit without measure

This is irrelevant to you claiming God has limitations 

[T-Bone]

3 minutes ago, Mike said:

Yikes!  You are really missing my points.

What I was showing had nothing to do with who won a particular skirmish or battle.  It has to do with the isolation IN TIME that the major interactions occur. 

Next time I will include that omitted verse. 
I was only trying to cut down on the length of my post.
 

You didn’t include the whole story which shows God is all powerful. Period ! End of argument!

[T-Bone]

58 minutes ago, Mike said:

number of religious people I have discussed this passage with insist that God is good and His handing over Job therefor had to be good.  I could never accept that, in the light of God being light and in Him is no darkness at all.

If this were a secular courtroom, and a judge did that kind of action, we could expect the judge to possibly say something like "My hands are tied. Based on the testimony and evidence, I am constrained by the law to rule this way

Maybe you should consult with people familiar with ancient biblical cultures - I mentioned before Job is an ancient culturalism of divine council - as in a sovereign king’s court - not in a modern court of law . Please review my posts on idiom of permission- you’re really pi$$ing away what little you have left in your budget for this case. 

Edited March 9, 2023 by T-Bone
Clarity

[Nathan_Jr]

57 minutes ago, Mike said:

God reluctantly gave Job over to the adversary; His ruling was against His will.  However, He was sharp to see that He could draw the line, and demand that Job’s life be spared.

God was fighting for Job, but He was limited to the laws He had set up.

Later, after God had successfully taught Job to believe rightly, God was able to have His will be done, and Job was restored.  But there was that temporary time where God’s will on Earth was thwarted.

God was willing but unable due to legal constraints, and, presumably, budget cuts (aka little boy killers).

This is not the same god victor “taught.”