What you actually seem to be doing is constructing MYTH. There is no rational or biblical basis for either question as I see it. I commend your imagination but not your communications skills or biblical understanding or rational analysis skills, or even your self-awareness.
The only basis for what you propose is what you conjure between your ears.
If you (or any other reader on this thread were to) want to understand the history and role of MYTH over the course of humankind's dominion over the earth, I recommend A Short History of Myth by Karen Armstrong.
Ms Armstrong is a former Catholic nun and writes exquisitely about human understanding of God (and gods) and spiritual ideas through the millennia.
In a prologue to A Short History..., "Myths are universal and timeless stories that reflect and shape our lives--they explore our desires, our fears, our longings, and provide narratives that remind us what it means to be human."
Myth predates and co-exists with Hebrew, Islam, and Christian understanding of life. My life experience and travels (abroad) exposed me to Catholic traditions which were adopted by various local communities and incorporated into church practice by Catholic practitioners.
Great recommendation Rocky !
Another one of her books that is fascinating for anyone who gets into philosophy of religion is The Case for God by Karen Armstrong . It has been some of the inspiration behind a few of my posts on this thread and a few others with similar themes.
What I am asking is "Does God impose a budget on the devil?"
Well, he certainly imposes limitations on the devil. Remember the covenant with Noah that God would never again flood the earth? Theres the tower of Babel where the languages were confounded. Also we see in Peter that the current state of affairs is being preserved from utter destruction for the day of judgement as well as the tribulation will be shortened or all flesh would be destroyed. So, yes God limites the devil from utterly destroying his creation again. Im sure satan is limited in other ways we arent even aware of due to his fallen state and loss of "heavenly" authority. But I don't believe its as you say, nothing personal, I just tend to stick with whats written. What I see written is God is saving his creation and will seperate the wheat and tares and his utter, absolute, sovereingty is what has held all of this together from utter destruction. Does that equal a budget? Nah...satan will fill his sins to the fullest and will be recompensed according to his works.
God is not limited by His budget; He squeaks by just right and just in time every time.It is the devil who miscalculates his budget and loses when confronting God and His people who are walking with Him.
So in your imaginations you have God and Satan on budgets. I'm not trying to be disrespectful here, but it's a fantasy Mike. The concept doesn't exist in scripture. Boundaries yes, budgetary constraints on God because God put the devil on one? No.
Well, he certainly imposes limitations on the devil. Remember the covenant with Noah that God would never again flood the earth? Theres the tower of Babel where the languages were confounded. Also we see in Peter that the current state of affairs is being preserved from utter destruction for the day of judgement as well as the tribulation will be shortened or all flesh would be destroyed. So, yes God limites the devil from utterly destroying his creation again. Im sure satan is limited in other ways we arent even aware of due to his fallen state and loss of "heavenly" authority. But I don't believe its as you say, nothing personal, I just tend to stick with whats written. What I see written is God is saving his creation and will seperate the wheat and tares and his utter, absolute, sovereingty is what has held all of this together from utter destruction. Does that equal a budget? Nah...satan will fill his sins to the fullest and will be recompensed according to his works.
God imposing limitationsis certainly one option. That is evident in some of the imagery in Job 38 to 41…But there also could be limitations intrinsic to the thing or being itself.
A state’s Department of Transportation might post a speed limit sign of 70 mph on the freeway. Many legal street vehicles are capable of greater speeds than that. If they get caught doing so by a state trooper there are usually consequences – a speeding ticket / day in court, etc...in a related story there was a believer in our branch who got around on a dinky moped - the top speed on those is 30 mph. He'd show up at functions all dusty and disheveled saying he took the freeway there - most of the trip was on the shoulder of the freeway...He never got a speeding ticket that's for sure...did get a few warnings to stay off freeways because he couldn't keep up with traffic. ah the more abundant life...gotta love it!
Now let’s take a look at a silly hypothetical. Bicyclists unite to create their own city where only non-motorized bicycles are allowed on the road. They even have freeways. Throwing caution to the wind they decide to make speed limits well beyond the capability of bicyclists (no metahumans in this goofball scenario ) which means they don’t need a police department to enforce the speed limits. Knowing that the land speed record for a bicycle is held by Bruce Bursford, who pedaled to an astonishing 208 mph in August, 1995 - he was sitting on a specially designed, stationary bike with helium-filled tires and a two-foot chain ring, set on rollers. [ What Is the Highest Speed Ever Recorded on a Bicycle? - SportsRec ] – it is determined that the speed limit on freeways is to be 300 mph…until the next big bicycle upgrade comes along – then the city officials might have to raise the speed limit.
I think in a similar way created beings have built-in limitations. No being is more powerful than God Almighty. It’s not that God has to actively do something to restrict or retrain a beings activity. It’s that the particular being can only do so much.
God imposing limitationsis certainly one option. That is evident in some of the imagery in Job 38 to 41…But there also could be limitations intrinsic to the thing or being itself.
A state’s Department of Transportation might post a speed limit sign of 70 mph on the freeway. Many legal street vehicles are capable of greater speeds than that. If they get caught doing so by a state trooper there are usually consequences – a speeding ticket / day in court, etc...in a related story there was a believer in our branch who got around on a dinky moped - the top speed on those is 30 mph. He'd show up at functions all dusty and disheveled saying he took the freeway there - most of the trip was on the shoulder of the freeway...He never got a speeding ticket that's for sure...did get a few warnings to stay off freeways because he couldn't keep up with traffic. ah the more abundant life...gotta love it!
Now let’s take a look at a silly hypothetical. Bicyclists unite to create their own city where only non-motorized bicycles are allowed on the road. They even have freeways. Throwing caution to the wind they decide to make speed limits well beyond the capability of bicyclists (no metahumans in this goofball scenario ) which means they don’t need a police department to enforce the speed limits. Knowing that the land speed record for a bicycle is held by Bruce Bursford, who pedaled to an astonishing 208 mph in August, 1995 - he was sitting on a specially designed, stationary bike with helium-filled tires and a two-foot chain ring, set on rollers. [ What Is the Highest Speed Ever Recorded on a Bicycle? - SportsRec ] – it is determined that the speed limit on freeways is to be 300 mph…until the next big bicycle upgrade comes along – then the city officials might have to raise the speed limit.
I think in a similar way created beings have built-in limitations. No being is more powerful than God Almighty. It’s not that God has to actively do something to restrict or retrain a beings activity. It’s that the particular being can only do so much.
I think our points of view compliment each other in that the items I stated have a direct scriptural reference where God set boundaries in place to keep his creation preserved until the day of judgement. And yes, satans limitations are intrinisic in his being and/or/who really knows the fact that he no longer functions in his God given authority, so who really knows what it meant for lucifer to be cast to the earth. The fall of man was pretty catastrophic for Adam and Eve and us for that matter, I wouldnt think it would be much different in lucifers case. But I am not saying God place arbitrary "wierwillian" limitations on satan...that dont fly with me any longer.
I couldn't remember on which thread you mentioned the book so I did a search and this thread (God's Budget) was near the top of the list. On page 4, there are a few posts from both of us about the book and those were the ones I was thinking of and wanted to find. The "Books" forum I referred to was short for Movies, Music, Books, Art.
I've read the first chapter and there were a couple of things she said that I had come across a while back on my study of the brain, stress and depression. I look forward to reading more to see how she explains the legacy of trauma in terms of her work with her patients.
You read so many books Rocky. Do you keep notes about them or do you only highlight parts you want to remember?
I couldn't remember on which thread you mentioned the book so I did a search and this thread (God's Budget) was near the top of the list. On page 4, there are a few posts from both of us about the book and those were the ones I was thinking of and wanted to find. The "Books" forum I referred to was short for Movies, Music, Books, Art.
I've read the first chapter and there were a couple of things she said that I had come across a while back on my study of the brain, stress and depression. I look forward to reading more to see how she explains the legacy of trauma in terms of her work with her patients.
You read so many books Rocky. Do you keep notes about them or do you only highlight parts you want to remember?
Ah HA! I don't frequent that forum... or even go there infrequently. I looked and didn't see any threads about books anyway.
I recently started making note cards like Ryan Holiday does. I use 5 by 8 index cards. I will use them for reference when writing books or essays (like my blog).
I get many of my books from public libraries and don't highlight or underline in them.
With kindle books I put in my own kindle library, I highlight copiously.
If you'd like to discuss any books in particular and want to start threads in that Movies, Music, Books, and Art FORUM (I mistakenly said thread the first time), that's a wonderful idea. However, if you do, please send me a PM and I'll check it out.
1.My opening quote is from YOUR starter post for this thread – so quit trying to move the goalposts!
No!
I insist on the right to move the goalposts!
LoL. I didn't even read the rest of your post yet.
This is not a debate to me, where someone wins and someone loses. I am exploring an idea, and you are not going to tell me how to do it or not do it.
The reason I am doing what you call "moving the goalposts" is because I am trying to refine the idea under discussion. If my initial statement did not adequately communicate my idea, then please now drop your debate mode approach, and adopt the patch I have just suggested.
I reject your rejection of my refining the goalposts in an intellect inquiry. I am exploring an idea, and I just made it more clear to you what that idea was in my last post, so please go back with this in mind and re-read, sans the debate mode in your brain busy churning as your re-read.
I hope the rest of you post doesn't hang on it's opening, because I negated the opening in my mind and the way I will proceed.
I'll probably skim read the rest of your post to see if there's anything as interesting as your last long post on Job. But first I wan to see if there are others posting here below who want to tell me how to explore my idea.
What you actually seem to be doing is constructing MYTH.
Not really. I am just trying to take the hints of some amazing cosmic machinery of angels and devils that the Bible lays out regarding the interactions between the spiritual world and physical world.
There is a great richness in the spiritual world the Bible tells us about in minimal ways. We've seen the in the thread in the angel talk from Daniel 9, and so many other places in the written Word.
Because I view these scriptures as NOT myths, it shouldn't be thought of as myth that I grope around the clues we have.
*/*/*
Oh GOSH !!
I just realized I still owe you folks the last list of scriptures, that I have slowly been refining for posting.
Sorry about that. I've been busy.
Of course that means you haven't yet seen the whole idea.
Soon to be posted in a major motion picture theater near you!!
Not really. I am just trying to take the hints of some amazing cosmic machinery of angels and devils that the Bible lays out regarding the interactions between the spiritual world and physical world.
There is a great richness in the spiritual world the Bible tells us about in minimal ways. We've seen the in the thread in the angel talk from Daniel 9, and so many other places in the written Word.
Because I view these scriptures as NOT myths, it shouldn't be thought of as myth that I grope around the clues we have.
We disagree. Or, I disagree with you on this. Frankly, I look at pretty much the entire bible as myth and not as literal, factual, rational "truth."
So, taking some of the recorded mythology in the bible and expressing your (private) interpretation thereof is IMO, constructing additional myth.
Im sure satan is limited in other ways we arent even aware of due to his fallen state and loss of "heavenly" authority. But I don't believe its as you say, nothing personal, I just tend to stick with whats written. ...
That's fair.
Part of my most current comments here are along the lines that my idea is not crazy and it is not disrespectful of God in any way.
ALSO, please bear in mind I still have one more list of scriptures to post.
Part of my motivation in this thread is to test my idea to see if it can work, and at least stand up to discussion a little.
I am not committed to the budget idea, but it has popped up over and over for many years now, so I want to see it has merit. So far I am a little disappointed with my old paper file's scriptures. I have lots of them in it, but lots of them are less solid than I though when I first archived them.
I am learning about the details of this idea as I discuss it here. Maybe I will put it in mothballs when I finally finish. Sorry I am going so slow.
We disagree. Or, I disagree with you on this. Frankly, I look at pretty much the entire bible as myth and not as literal, factual, rational "truth."
So, taking some of the recorded mythology in the bible and expressing your (private) interpretation thereof is IMO, constructing additional myth.
There are some figures of speech in the Bible that ale like myths. In another thread last week I stated I believe Jesus' parable of Lazarus in Abraham's bosom is like a myth, but it has teaching value anyway.
I see the courtroom scenes in Job as completely myth like in the sense that it is pretty obvious that this a grand Condescensio figure of speech. God is teaching us something about the spiritual realm using scenery that is very physical and earthbound. We dare not read too much into it.
I have heard and find very believable that the conversation between the beautiful Enchanter and Eve took about 5 years to actually transpire, while the scripture makes it look like a 5 minute scene. That makes that conversation bit mythy, wouldn't you say?
I am REAL careful before I call anything in the Bible a myth like figure of speech.
No!
I insist on the right to move the goalposts!
LoL. I didn't even read the rest of your post yet.
This is not a debate to me, where someone wins and someone loses. I am exploring an idea, and you are not going to tell me how to do it or not do it.
The reason I am doing what you call "moving the goalposts" is because I am trying to refine the idea under discussion. If my initial statement did not adequately communicate my idea, then please now drop your debate mode approach, and adopt the patch I have just suggested.
I reject your rejection of my refining the goalposts in an intellect inquiry. I am exploring an idea, and I just made it more clear to you what that idea was in my last post, so please go back with this in mind and re-read, sans the debate mode in your brain busy churning as your re-read.
I hope the rest of you post doesn't hang on it's opening, because I negated the opening in my mind and the way I will proceed.
I'll probably skim read the rest of your post to see if there's anything as interesting as your last long post on Job. But first I wan to see if there are others posting here below who want to tell me how to explore my idea.
To insist on moving the goalposts seems to be an admission the idea was silly in the first place.
don’t get your hopes up on the rest of my post - you probably won’t like it either…but in my defense nine tenths of my post was just quoting Job 38 to 41…the first ten or so short paragraphs at the beginning were just introductory remarks to show Scripture evidence that your theory was untenable.
No!
I insist on the right to move the goalposts!
LoL. I didn't even read the rest of your post yet.
Hey! You're busy. There is only so much time. It runs out.
42 minutes ago, Mike said:
I'll probably skim read the rest of your post to see if there's anything as interesting as your last long post on Job.
Skim reading: a tried and true time saving practice.
44 minutes ago, Mike said:
But first I wan to see if there are others posting here below who want to tell me how to explore my idea.
Intellectual honesty is the headlamp of idea spelunking.
34 minutes ago, Mike said:
Oh GOSH !!
I just realized I still owe you folks the last list of scriptures, that I have slowly been refining for posting.
Sorry about that. I've been busy.
Yes you have. So little time.
26 minutes ago, Mike said:
ALSO, please bear in mind I still have one more list of scriptures to post.
No, it it was an admission that I needed to state better detail for the idea than Post #1 has.
maybe while you're at it you can provide evidence for the rest of your theory in your starter post. I'm old and a little slow on the uptake - so excuse me for that - and it just might be me - but it seems to me like you've gone all over the map and even off-the-map but you still haven't proved that God has a budget, there's double doors and that has something to do with the scarcity of miracles.
On 2/27/2023 at 9:12 PM, Mike said:
God’s Budget and Double Doors
On the Scarcity of Miracles
Does God have a budget for signs, miracles, and wonders?
I saw lots of signs and wonders in the early 1970s, some that benefitted me and some benefitting others, and maybe even a miracle or two.This was on Long Island, just across a bridge from the Groovy Christians at Rye, NY.The Word was hot then, and BOTH Jesus Christ and the class were talked up bigtime.It was a genuine work of God.The archives here have a couple of posts from Ralph D verifying this, as he too was in the middle of it all. This is undeniable.
But it is equally undeniable that NOT as many mighty signs, miracles, and wonders were being seen as the Seventies ended. Not coincidentally, by 1982 the Corps had taken over and was supervising most field work. In my most recent theory on this, the over-supervising and stifling influence of the Corps is characterizes lots of how TWI-1 phased out and TWI-2 phased in.
I think we have all agreed here, that since 1986, the higher up in leadership that you look, the less likelihood there is of seeing any signs, miracles, and wonders coming from their hands.
Most of what power I saw in the Seventies was associated with regular believers witnessing, running classes, under-shepherding new people, and splitting twigs.That activity was hotter than hot on Long Island then, but when I moved to HQ in 1976 the local movement of the Word in New Knoxville was down to absolute zero. That was one of the reasons I left there two years later. I can hardly imagine the insularity and passage of 4 decades has only made that worse for the long-term residents at HQ.
Because I had specialized in witnessing back on Long Island, I was able to sign up two locals in the New Knoxville area, and it was considered phenomenal by some on staff.I had to send my sign-ups to Sidney, though, for fellowship and under-shepherding. Things were pretty dead in town, spiritually.
*/*/*
But there is much more to the scarcity of miracles that I want to talk about here, than the ineptness of TWI. I sense the scarcity of miracles is universal, almost regardless of people, and as if it were a law of some sort, with few exceptions.
*/*/*
I have told this story once, but it bears repeating here.
Back in the day, on Long Island we had a wonderful new brother added to our Branch one day, pseudo-named George.He was a super nice guy, always fun and laughing, and a real joy to be around.He was meek and joined in on witnessing very well.He was not all messed up and straining to be positive and renew his mind; he HAD it!He seemed to be pretty well adjusted BEFORE taking the class, and just jumped in right away as a renewed mind believer.I wish I had stayed there longer to get to know him better, and regret that I’ve been unable to find him.
George had one good arm and his other was completely withered from birth.A tiny outline of a baby’s hand with some fingers could be seen protruding a tiny bit from his shoulder. He could hide it easily with a shirt, but in the Summertime we could often plainly see it. He didn’t try to hide it, and seemed to be quite skilled at living without the arm. He was active and got around well; an unforgettable guy.
When we would run a PFAL class, just EVERYONE held their breath during the part about the man with the withered hand. We all wanted to see George miraculously healed.I think he went WoW or maybe in the Corps, but I’m not sure.
But I do know for sure, that if George had ever gotten that new arm build by a miracle, I would CERTAINLY have heard about it from all my old Long Island friends. Word about George would have traveled fast, fast, fast.I think there are still a dozen of us still alive and friends on Facebook.
We did not see any such spectacular miracles. Maybe there were some, but word seemed to not get around much about them if they did happen.
*/*/*
I have thought long and hard about this scarcity of miracles.
One hunch is that we grads have not yet really graduated to that level yet.
But that is ONLY PART of my thinking.
The scarcity of miracles is universal, and not just in the failed TWI.
So, the question then becomes, why haven’t ANY groups of Christians in modern times gotten the same results that we see in Acts of the Apostles?
But then, looking closer at Acts, we can see the abundance of miracles there was in spurts (like Long Island?), and that most of the time, they too experienced the same scarcity of miracles.We do see Paul sprung from jail once by a miraculous earthquake, and then some fast acting on revelation by Paul.But then how many times later was Paul NOT sprung from jail?And then, how many of the Apostles eventually died? All of them died. Miracles were rare for them too.
I am thinking out loud here.Still working on all this.
At the very end of this thinking, I keep running into the very odd idea that God has limited Himself to a “budget” on miracles SO THAT the devil can be limited to the same a budget on producing lying signs, miracles, and wonders.
I have also noticed that many here are very much against the idea of God having any limitations. This thread is an opportunity for possibly thinking that through in more detail.
*/*/*/*
God uses angels to do a lot of things. There is an interesting account in the OT about this in the Book of Daniel, where Daniel was praying for some help with something, and nothing happens for a long time, like weeks. Suddenly one day an angel shows up, and says something like “I’m here to help. Sorry I’m so late. I was detained for weeks struggling with some ‘big guy’ out there.”
That was my Super Abbreviated Version; below is the NIV:
*/*/*/*
Daniel Chapter 10
In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel (who was called Belteshazzar). Its message was true and it concerned a great war. The understanding of the message came to him in a vision.
At that time I, Daniel, mourned for three weeks.I ate no choice food; no meat or wine touched my lips; and I used no lotions at all until the three weeks were over.
On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris,I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist.His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.
I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; those who were with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves.So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless.Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground.
A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees.He said, “Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you.” And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling.
Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them.But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.”
While he was saying this to me, I bowed with my face toward the ground and was speechless.Then one who looked like a man touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, “I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I feel very weak.How can I, your servant, talk with you, my lord? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe.”
Again the one who looked like a man touched me and gave me strength.“Do not be afraid, you who are highly esteemed,” he said. “Peace! Be strong now; be strong.”
When he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, “Speak, my lord, since you have given me strength.”
So he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come;but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.”
*/*/*
Now try not to be distracted by the great example of the Great Principle that is laid out in the open here in Daniel 10, and PLEASE focus on the red fonts that show how God was limited. God’s angels were obviously limited in that chapter, and they struggled to prevail. It looks like they were on a budget that just barely worked.
From this and many other scriptures (forthcoming), I get the impression that, though God has infinite power, He has limited His use of His power for various reasons, and must work within His own constructed framework.
I get the impression He limits Himself to some kind of “Intervention Budget” SO THAT He can limit the devil to the same budget.
WHY it works this way I do not know.
It just seems to be implied to be the case in the scriptures.I think this maybe is what VPW was often referring to when he said the God did things “legally” and not just willy-nilly.I will be soon bringing out more scriptures that gave me this hunch many years ago.
Never once have I heard VPW or anyone else in the ministry, or out of the ministry, bring up an idea like this.I have no idea where I got it from, but it just looks that way when I read the Bible. I think the Book of Job and it’s courtroom scenes may have first planted this idea. Also in that courtroom we see the devil being limited to not killing Job. Also, the many times God’s people in the Bible just barely got delivered at the last minute suggested a budget to me.
The spiritual battles in the OT are often ones of God just barely winning, but often with an abundance of cleverness and foresight. God knew beforehand how big to set His budget so that He could rescue the broken world from the devil. God’s budget is tight; tight enough to make it impossible for the adversary to rule HIS OWN WORLD very efficiently.Not knowing the future, the adversary wastes his budget on failed attempts to thwart God.
*/*/*/*
Now another feature of this theory or hunch of mine is that the budget not only applies to the “amount” of an intervention from the spiritual to the physical, it ALSO implies a TIME BUDGET as well.
Again, from a bunch of scriptures (forthcoming) I have seen situations in the Scriptures that I describe as “Double Doors.”That mean when God opens the door between the spiritual and physical for an intervention, He must open a corresponding door to the adversary as well.Otherwise the doors are shut tight, like the way we see an angel in Genesis that blocks and guards Eden and the Tree of Live. The doors open at just the right time, and then soon shut.
I first noted this “Double Door” phenomenon in the Road to Damascus incident when Paul was converted. God opened the door for Paul to see Jesus, but the devil pounces in through that same set of doors to try and kill Paul.Like the limitations put on him in the Book of Job, the devil is only successful in blinding Paul. This blinding is against God’s will, but the door was then shut, so God directed Paul and Ananias to get together for healing later.
I thought I’d submit this hunch of mine for review here, and brainstorming a little outside the usual confines of issues in About the Way.I am sure many tangential topics will be included.
maybe while you're at it you can provide evidence for the rest of your theory in your starter post. I'm old and a little slow on the uptake - so excuse me for that - and it just might be me - but it seems to me like you've gone all over the map and even off-the-map but you still haven't proved that God has a budget, there's double doors and that has something to do with the scarcity of miracles.
Yes, we've been all over the map. That is with exploratory expeditions do.
Yes, we've been all over the map. That is with exploratory expeditions do.
Exploratory = involving exploration or investigation; similar = fact-finding; probing; searching; analytic.
Expedition = a journey or voyage undertaken by a group of people with a particular purpose, especially that of exploration, scientific research.
But in that same starter post you said you wanted to get into brainstorming = group discussion to produce ideas or solve problems.
I think you should stick with brainstorming – that would be intellectually honest – because it doesn’t look like you’re conducting a fact-finding mission to find Scripture evidence…I mean you have not shown any so far…but it does appear you want help brainstorming to prove that God has a budget, there's double doors and that has something to do with the scarcity of miracles…don’t think I can help you much there – it’s like you asking me to help you prove the law of believing is real…I won't because just don’t believe in your mission...remember this great line - I have a jack but I'm not going to help you.
You’ve got to beleeve it until you know that you know that you know how busy he is.
Not quite.
There is an element involved where I simply have better things to do elsewhere.... often. I didn't want to be so harsh as to say so outright, but you twisted my arm.
But I still care for you here, so I make some time available to minister here. If you want me to spend more time here, try pretending that I am succeeding in helping you here.... and maybe it will catch my attention to re-prioritize.
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Great recommendation Rocky !
Another one of her books that is fascinating for anyone who gets into philosophy of religion is The Case for God by Karen Armstrong . It has been some of the inspiration behind a few of my posts on this thread and a few others with similar themes.
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OldSkool
Well, he certainly imposes limitations on the devil. Remember the covenant with Noah that God would never again flood the earth? Theres the tower of Babel where the languages were confounded. Also we see in Peter that the current state of affairs is being preserved from utter destruction for the day of judgement as well as the tribulation will be shortened or all flesh would be destroyed. So, yes God limites the devil from utterly destroying his creation again. Im sure satan is limited in other ways we arent even aware of due to his fallen state and loss of "heavenly" authority. But I don't believe its as you say, nothing personal, I just tend to stick with whats written. What I see written is God is saving his creation and will seperate the wheat and tares and his utter, absolute, sovereingty is what has held all of this together from utter destruction. Does that equal a budget? Nah...satan will fill his sins to the fullest and will be recompensed according to his works.
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Nathan_Jr
Is God a concept? If so, man invented God.
To glove fit God into a formula, a model, is to conceptualize God, to imaginatively invent God.
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OldSkool
So in your imaginations you have God and Satan on budgets. I'm not trying to be disrespectful here, but it's a fantasy Mike. The concept doesn't exist in scripture. Boundaries yes, budgetary constraints on God because God put the devil on one? No.
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T-Bone
God imposing limitations is certainly one option. That is evident in some of the imagery in Job 38 to 41…But there also could be limitations intrinsic to the thing or being itself.
A state’s Department of Transportation might post a speed limit sign of 70 mph on the freeway. Many legal street vehicles are capable of greater speeds than that. If they get caught doing so by a state trooper there are usually consequences – a speeding ticket / day in court, etc...in a related story there was a believer in our branch who got around on a dinky moped - the top speed on those is 30 mph. He'd show up at functions all dusty and disheveled saying he took the freeway there - most of the trip was on the shoulder of the freeway...He never got a speeding ticket that's for sure...did get a few warnings to stay off freeways because he couldn't keep up with traffic.
ah the more abundant life...gotta love it!
Now let’s take a look at a silly hypothetical. Bicyclists unite to create their own city where only non-motorized bicycles are allowed on the road. They even have freeways. Throwing caution to the wind they decide to make speed limits well beyond the capability of bicyclists (no metahumans in this goofball scenario ) which means they don’t need a police department to enforce the speed limits. Knowing that the land speed record for a bicycle is held by Bruce Bursford, who pedaled to an astonishing 208 mph in August, 1995 - he was sitting on a specially designed, stationary bike with helium-filled tires and a two-foot chain ring, set on rollers. [ What Is the Highest Speed Ever Recorded on a Bicycle? - SportsRec ] – it is determined that the speed limit on freeways is to be 300 mph…until the next big bicycle upgrade comes along – then the city officials might have to raise the speed limit.
I think in a similar way created beings have built-in limitations. No being is more powerful than God Almighty. It’s not that God has to actively do something to restrict or retrain a beings activity. It’s that the particular being can only do so much.
Edited by T-Bonethe more abundant editing
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OldSkool
I think our points of view compliment each other in that the items I stated have a direct scriptural reference where God set boundaries in place to keep his creation preserved until the day of judgement. And yes, satans limitations are intrinisic in his being and/or/who really knows the fact that he no longer functions in his God given authority, so who really knows what it meant for lucifer to be cast to the earth. The fall of man was pretty catastrophic for Adam and Eve and us for that matter, I wouldnt think it would be much different in lucifers case. But I am not saying God place arbitrary "wierwillian" limitations on satan...that dont fly with me any longer.
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Charity
Hi Rocky,
I couldn't remember on which thread you mentioned the book so I did a search and this thread (God's Budget) was near the top of the list. On page 4, there are a few posts from both of us about the book and those were the ones I was thinking of and wanted to find. The "Books" forum I referred to was short for Movies, Music, Books, Art.
I've read the first chapter and there were a couple of things she said that I had come across a while back on my study of the brain, stress and depression. I look forward to reading more to see how she explains the legacy of trauma in terms of her work with her patients.
You read so many books Rocky. Do you keep notes about them or do you only highlight parts you want to remember?
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Rocky
Ah HA! I don't frequent that forum... or even go there infrequently. I looked and didn't see any threads about books anyway.
I recently started making note cards like Ryan Holiday does. I use 5 by 8 index cards. I will use them for reference when writing books or essays (like my blog).
I get many of my books from public libraries and don't highlight or underline in them.
With kindle books I put in my own kindle library, I highlight copiously.
If you'd like to discuss any books in particular and want to start threads in that Movies, Music, Books, and Art FORUM (I mistakenly said thread the first time), that's a wonderful idea. However, if you do, please send me a PM and I'll check it out.
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Mike
No!
I insist on the right to move the goalposts!
LoL. I didn't even read the rest of your post yet.
This is not a debate to me, where someone wins and someone loses. I am exploring an idea, and you are not going to tell me how to do it or not do it.
The reason I am doing what you call "moving the goalposts" is because I am trying to refine the idea under discussion. If my initial statement did not adequately communicate my idea, then please now drop your debate mode approach, and adopt the patch I have just suggested.
I reject your rejection of my refining the goalposts in an intellect inquiry. I am exploring an idea, and I just made it more clear to you what that idea was in my last post, so please go back with this in mind and re-read, sans the debate mode in your brain busy churning as your re-read.
I hope the rest of you post doesn't hang on it's opening, because I negated the opening in my mind and the way I will proceed.
I'll probably skim read the rest of your post to see if there's anything as interesting as your last long post on Job. But first I wan to see if there are others posting here below who want to tell me how to explore my idea.
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Rocky
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Mike
Not really. I am just trying to take the hints of some amazing cosmic machinery of angels and devils that the Bible lays out regarding the interactions between the spiritual world and physical world.
There is a great richness in the spiritual world the Bible tells us about in minimal ways. We've seen the in the thread in the angel talk from Daniel 9, and so many other places in the written Word.
Because I view these scriptures as NOT myths, it shouldn't be thought of as myth that I grope around the clues we have.
*/*/*
Oh GOSH !!
I just realized I still owe you folks the last list of scriptures, that I have slowly been refining for posting.
Sorry about that. I've been busy.
Of course that means you haven't yet seen the whole idea.
Soon to be posted in a major motion picture theater near you!!
Check your newspapers for showtimes.
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Rocky
We disagree. Or, I disagree with you on this. Frankly, I look at pretty much the entire bible as myth and not as literal, factual, rational "truth."
So, taking some of the recorded mythology in the bible and expressing your (private) interpretation thereof is IMO, constructing additional myth.
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Mike
That's fair.
Part of my most current comments here are along the lines that my idea is not crazy and it is not disrespectful of God in any way.
ALSO, please bear in mind I still have one more list of scriptures to post.
Part of my motivation in this thread is to test my idea to see if it can work, and at least stand up to discussion a little.
I am not committed to the budget idea, but it has popped up over and over for many years now, so I want to see it has merit. So far I am a little disappointed with my old paper file's scriptures. I have lots of them in it, but lots of them are less solid than I though when I first archived them.
I am learning about the details of this idea as I discuss it here. Maybe I will put it in mothballs when I finally finish. Sorry I am going so slow.
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Mike
There are some figures of speech in the Bible that ale like myths. In another thread last week I stated I believe Jesus' parable of Lazarus in Abraham's bosom is like a myth, but it has teaching value anyway.
I see the courtroom scenes in Job as completely myth like in the sense that it is pretty obvious that this a grand Condescensio figure of speech. God is teaching us something about the spiritual realm using scenery that is very physical and earthbound. We dare not read too much into it.
I have heard and find very believable that the conversation between the beautiful Enchanter and Eve took about 5 years to actually transpire, while the scripture makes it look like a 5 minute scene. That makes that conversation bit mythy, wouldn't you say?
I am REAL careful before I call anything in the Bible a myth like figure of speech.
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T-Bone
To insist on moving the goalposts seems to be an admission the idea was silly in the first place.
don’t get your hopes up on the rest of my post - you probably won’t like it either…but in my defense nine tenths of my post was just quoting Job 38 to 41…the first ten or so short paragraphs at the beginning were just introductory remarks to show Scripture evidence that your theory was untenable.
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Nathan_Jr
Yikes!
Hey! You're busy. There is only so much time. It runs out.
Skim reading: a tried and true time saving practice.
Intellectual honesty is the headlamp of idea spelunking.
Yes you have. So little time.
Where will you ever find the time?
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Mike
No, it it was an admission that I needed to state better detail for the idea than Post #1 has.
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T-Bone
maybe while you're at it you can provide evidence for the rest of your theory in your starter post. I'm old and a little slow on the uptake - so excuse me for that - and it just might be me - but it seems to me like you've gone all over the map and even off-the-map but you still haven't proved that God has a budget, there's double doors and that has something to do with the scarcity of miracles.
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Rocky
Myth ≠ falsehood
I think you probably realize it.
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Mike
I'm going with myth-like or mythy.
A figure of speech is not a falsehood, though it is not true to fact; the gist is true, not the details that shape the gist.
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Mike
Yes, we've been all over the map. That is with exploratory expeditions do.
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Nathan_Jr
STOP!
NO!
NOT SO FAST!
This will require time. Something he just doesn’t have. He’s busy.
You’ve got to do whatever it takes to beleeve this. You’ve got to beleeve it until you know that you know that you know how busy he is.
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T-Bone
Exploratory = involving exploration or investigation; similar = fact-finding; probing; searching; analytic.
Expedition = a journey or voyage undertaken by a group of people with a particular purpose, especially that of exploration, scientific research.
But in that same starter post you said you wanted to get into brainstorming = group discussion to produce ideas or solve problems.
I think you should stick with brainstorming – that would be intellectually honest – because it doesn’t look like you’re conducting a fact-finding mission to find Scripture evidence…I mean you have not shown any so far…but it does appear you want help brainstorming to prove that God has a budget, there's double doors and that has something to do with the scarcity of miracles…don’t think I can help you much there – it’s like you asking me to help you prove the law of believing is real…I won't because just don’t believe in your mission...remember this great line - I have a jack but I'm not going to help you.
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Mike
Not quite.
Edited by MikeThere is an element involved where I simply have better things to do elsewhere.... often. I didn't want to be so harsh as to say so outright, but you twisted my arm.
But I still care for you here, so I make some time available to minister here. If you want me to spend more time here, try pretending that I am succeeding in helping you here.... and maybe it will catch my attention to re-prioritize.
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