You aren’t hurting my feelings. I can dish it and take it. Keep it up. It’s fun. Just don’t be a hypocrite and not expect to be curb stomped for it. But do it in the appropriate forum.
It is fun, and we could do this. There are just a couple who want to warn me all the time. What? Everything has been good natured from my end.
I don't know the special environment of every forum. This is the second thread where I made any comment
I already said my old "church" had an entire "service" with four or five of them talking about their out of body experiences. NDEs; visitations; caught up; seeing angels, on and on and on... OK with the utterance manifestations at the Way but I don't talk about everything with every Christian group I come across.
Other than that, things are just a bit tender around here for me. I prefer to just lurk awhile. Makes me think of cats but...I'm really not here to offend
A) So far, 124 posts' worth of lurking. Most people wouldn't call it "lurking" when they're posting that much. If you really have been here for 6 months and only recently started posting, then you WERE lurking.
B) That's open to disagreement. I suspect yours would be the minority opinion here.
A) So far, 124 posts' worth of lurking. Most people wouldn't call it "lurking" when they're posting that much. If you really have been here for 6 months and only recently started posting, then you WERE lurking.
B) That's open to disagreement. I suspect yours would be the minority opinion here.
Hello Sunshine,
Now you want to challenge the specifics of lurking. What a wonderful conversation.
Between May 19 and May 31 I didn't post. That can start again and that could grow. I'm trying not to get banned.
Lil' secret. If I did I wouldn't care all that much. I want everybody to be happy.
This may be one of the most important topics of our time, i.e., What is Hell? I think Martin Luther struggled with it; certainly I do. Still haven't decided yet, still open to possibilities. Here's another book that I think we discussed at some point in the past:
I already said my old "church" had an entire "service" with four or five of them talking about their out of body experiences. NDEs; visitations; caught up; seeing angels, on and on and on... OK with the utterance manifestations at the Way but I don't talk about everything with every Christian group I come across.
This is NOT a criticism. I am wondering, though, how much study you have given to the topic of NDEs and whether you use skeptical and critical thinking when reading the studies or while listening to people describe their experiences?
The reason I'm asking is because I rarely did this when I was a Christian. However, during my deconversion and since then, I have learned the necessity for doing so.
The important question to ask is how much does one care whether what they believe is actually true or not? Are NDEs simply a matter of interest for you or is it something you base important beliefs upon?
*************
This is an example of what I mean. After seeing your post, I read Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality by Jeffrey Long, and I had some questions about a few things and decided to look into them. I checked and learned that he is a Christian who wrote God and the Afterlife which could mean that he has a biased perspective about NDEs.
I also researched whether his work was peer reviewed and found two reviews of his popular book Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near-Death Experiences . One was by Wendy Cousins and the other by J. Kenneth Arnette, both of whom have highly educated fields of study.
Arnette makes a number of critiques, a few of them being:
- a problem with Long's repeated use of the words "proof" and "the afterlife." "Proof" because Arnette claims, "At this point, the survival of consciousness cannot, through science, be established as a fact." "The afterlife" because "NDEs actually provide very little information about the nature of “the” afterlife, except perhaps for its initial appearance" and that the term “afterlife” is a loaded term, with much attached baggage and potentially a variety of interpretations." Arnette uses the term "survival of death.”
- explains ways in which Long's methodology is problematic
- that Long omits the research on "distressing NDEs" in his book (other than a mere mention of it and a referral to his website.) Arnette writes, "the likely result of Long’s detailed attention to pleasurable NDEs and virtual omission of attention to distressing ones is that readers come away with a simplistic impression of the range of possible experiences that might await them at death."
I could go further by looking up information about Arnette and his support of the "reality, meaning, and implications of NDEs" since his credentials include his involvement with the "Transpersonal Institute for the Scientific Study of the Paranormal" - oh my!
I am reminded of that book on ectoplasm and other such phenomena that TWI used to “study.” Wasn’t it published by American Christian Press, but later victor distanced himself from it?
Someone will know what I’m talking about. A mind is a terrible thing to lose - only so much room for bullshonta.
I already said my old "church" had an entire "service" with four or five of them talking about their out of body experiences. NDEs; visitations; caught up; seeing angels, on and on and on... OK with the utterance manifestations at the Way but I don't talk about everything with every Christian group I come across.
Many self-proclaimed modern prophets, infected with the need for sensationalism, have given reports of out-of-body experiences, trips to heaven and hell, and face-to-face dialogues with angels, God and Jesus Christ.
A few are Mike Bickle, Chris Reed, Todd Bentley and Bob Jones who are all close past or present associates of Rick Joyner of MorningStar Ministries and have all given detailed descriptions of their visiting heaven.
I find it interesting that in the past, preachers would preach scripture. Nowadays, for more and more preachers, the preaching of God's word comes through retelling their visits to heaven. Why is this becoming the norm for so many churches?
Could it be Challenging Counterfeit or Angels Of Light? My copies, if I still have them, are probably buried in a box that's still waiting to be unpacked from my last move. Let's just say that finding them is not exactly high on my list of priorities at the moment. Yes, the mind is a terrible thing to lose. The same cannot be said of books filled with bullshonta.
Could it be Challenging Counterfeit or Angels Of Light? My copies, if I still have them, are probably buried in a box that's still waiting to be unpacked from my last move. Let's just say that finding them is not exactly high on my list of priorities at the moment. Yes, the mind is a terrible thing to lose. The same cannot be said of books filled with bullshonta.
By someone I meant you, Waysider. Do NOT dig that trash out. It could be one of those titles, but they aren’t ringing a bell. It might not have been published by ACP. It was heavily focused on the paranormal.
My mind is exactly where I left it, probably next to my sunglasses and keys. Once I find it, I’ll remember. Unless someone ELSE remembers first.
Many self-proclaimed modern prophets, infected with the need for sensationalism, have given reports of out-of-body experiences, trips to heaven and hell, and face-to-face dialogues with angels, God and Jesus Christ.
A few are Mike Bickle, Chris Reed, Todd Bentley and Bob Jones who are all close past or present associates of Rick Joyner of MorningStar Ministries and have all given detailed descriptions of their visiting heaven.
I find it interesting that in the past, preachers would preach scripture. Nowadays, for more and more preachers, the preaching of God's word comes through retelling their visits to heaven. Why is this becoming the norm for so many churches?
I tried watching that video with Chris Reed. Holy Shonta!! What a charlatan fraud!
It’s interesting to me that these “spiritual” trips are so nonchalantly recounted with so much detail conveniently aligned with scripture, yet the DMT trip is indescribable as the most profound vision/experience of someone’s life.
Those telling stories of these trips to “spiritual realms” are the ones who haven’t been there.
I remain in awe of those who are in awe of these frauds.
That could be it. Is there a lot of scientific-sounding pseudo-science with pretentious technical language describing devil spirits and how they manifest and work in the natural realm?
I was in a serious multi-vehicle accident a while back. I can remember where I was going, what the weather was like, the approximate time it happened and other general information. When you get to more specific details, like make, model, color of the other vehicles, what the other parties looked like, I draw a blank. I only know fine details from reading the accident report. So, excuse me for being skeptical when people offer up minute details. The only thing I remember clearly is looking up at someone asking if I have a DNR. Yeah, that detail sticks with me.
I tried watching that video with Chris Reed. Holy Shonta!! What a charlatan fraud!
It’s interesting to me that these “spiritual” trips are so nonchalantly recounted with so much detail conveniently aligned with scripture, yet the DMT trip is indescribable as the most profound vision/experience of someone’s life.
Those telling stories of these trips to “spiritual realms” are the ones who haven’t been there.
I remain in awe of those who are in awe of these frauds.
My mind has gone in search of what DMT means in the Land of Acronyms and Text Abbreviations. Help bring in back home to me please. Thanx
Also, your highlighted line above - a wise person I know once told me "the one claiming to speak for God is surely the one who does not."
I was in a serious multi-vehicle accident a while back. I can remember where I was going, what the weather was like, the approximate time it happened and other general information. When you get to more specific details, like make, model, color of the other vehicles, what the other parties looked like, I draw a blank. I only know fine details from reading the accident report. So, excuse me for being skeptical when people offer up minute details. The only thing I remember clearly is looking up at someone asking if I have a DNR. Yeah, that detail sticks with me.
Good point. DNR (that one I know) - your condition was even more serious than what I had thought before. So, so thankful you are still here Waysider.
My point is that profound events of disillusionment are not and cannot be so flippantly recounted. One may feel an urgency or excitement about retelling an experience, but ultimately realize any attempt is futile. Words become embarrassingly insufficient.
This is true for the religious/mystical experience, psychedelic trip and the astronaut's spacewalk.
I haven't heard anything so far about drug use with these guys but adultery and/or CSA was committed by all of them except Rich Joyner (as far as what's been reported). However, he and his church has recently been named in lawsuits for turning a blind eye to sexual grooming and assaults by a former youth group leader volunteer. The man went on to plead guilty to 10 counts to sexual conduct with a minor and assault and battery and was sentence to nine years in prison.
My point is that profound events of disillusionment are not and cannot be so flippantly recounted. One may feel an urgency or excitement about retelling an experience, but ultimately realize any attempt is futile. Words become embarrassingly insufficient.
This is true for the religious/mystical experience, psychedelic trip and the astronaut's spacewalk.
It's so true - Mike Bickle was the worst of them. If you listen to his link above, it sounds like he's doing stand-up comedy when he talks about his visit to heaven.
What's even more sickening is that Bickle used his "golden chariot" prop from his story to help groom a 19-year-old female into having an affair with him by prophesying she would one day ride with him in it.
I realize I have gotten far off the topic of this thread but William Barlow and his parents were leaders in twi when John Shoenheit's paper on adultery was covertly being circulated. I wonder if any of his pages of questions were about twi's stance on adultery since the paper got John fired for writing it.
twi actually threatened the corps to not read it. Some here might have experienced this. So much for asking questions.
I realize I have gotten far off the topic of this thread but William Barlow and his parents were leaders in twi when John Shoenheit's paper on adultery was covertly being circulated. I wonder if any of his pages of questions were about twi's stance on adultery since the paper got John fired for writing it.
twi actually threatened the corps to not read it. Some here might have experienced this. So much for asking questions.
You can find plenty of discussions on that paper here. I read it, but don't remember it. I'm sure it's fine and its conclusion biblically supported. But I'm unimpressed.
That it was controversial speaks volumes. That anyone would need a theological paper to arrive at an ethical or moral conclusion about adultery speaks libraries.
You can find plenty of discussions on that paper here. I read it, but don't remember it. I'm sure it's fine and its conclusion biblically supported. But I'm unimpressed.
That it was controversial speaks volumes. That anyone would need a theological paper to arrive at an ethical or moral conclusion about adultery speaks libraries.
I've read it as well (years after the fact), but I have no interest in discussing it now. I was just wondering if anyone remembers the push back/warnings against reading it at the time or just being able to bring up the topic of adultery without any mention of the paper.
Being in Canada, I don't think it was well-known that the paper even existed, but then again I was out by 1986.
I've read it as well (years after the fact), but I have no interest in discussing it now. I was just wondering if anyone remembers the push back/warnings against reading it at the time or just being able to bring up the topic of adultery without any mention of the paper.
Being in Canada, I don't think it was well-known that the paper even existed, but then again I was out by 1986.
Yes. Many here have talked about it being schismatic. Lots of people left over the issue. IIRC, TWI didn't want people reading it and were ....ed JS even wrote it.
Again, that JS even felt like he had to write it is the whole problem. That grown adults didn't know what to believe about adultery and that they needed clear guidance on the issue is an even bigger problem.
This is NOT a criticism. I am wondering, though, how much study you have given to the topic of NDEs and whether you use skeptical and critical thinking when reading the studies or while listening to people describe their experiences?
The reason I'm asking is because I rarely did this when I was a Christian. However, during my deconversion and since then, I have learned the necessity for doing so.
The important question to ask is how much does one care whether what they believe is actually true or not? Are NDEs simply a matter of interest for you or is it something you base important beliefs upon?
*************
This is an example of what I mean. After seeing your post, I read Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality by Jeffrey Long, and I had some questions about a few things and decided to look into them. I checked and learned that he is a Christian who wrote God and the Afterlife which could mean that he has a biased perspective about NDEs.
I also researched whether his work was peer reviewed and found two reviews of his popular book Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near-Death Experiences . One was by Wendy Cousins and the other by J. Kenneth Arnette, both of whom have highly educated fields of study.
Arnette makes a number of critiques, a few of them being:
- a problem with Long's repeated use of the words "proof" and "the afterlife." "Proof" because Arnette claims, "At this point, the survival of consciousness cannot, through science, be established as a fact." "The afterlife" because "NDEs actually provide very little information about the nature of “the” afterlife, except perhaps for its initial appearance" and that the term “afterlife” is a loaded term, with much attached baggage and potentially a variety of interpretations." Arnette uses the term "survival of death.”
- explains ways in which Long's methodology is problematic
- that Long omits the research on "distressing NDEs" in his book (other than a mere mention of it and a referral to his website.) Arnette writes, "the likely result of Long’s detailed attention to pleasurable NDEs and virtual omission of attention to distressing ones is that readers come away with a simplistic impression of the range of possible experiences that might await them at death."
I could go further by looking up information about Arnette and his support of the "reality, meaning, and implications of NDEs" since his credentials include his involvement with the "Transpersonal Institute for the Scientific Study of the Paranormal" - oh my!
You're asking if I'm stupid and gullible? Sometimes.
Eban Alexander and Mary Neal are a couple doctors and researchers claiming to have had death experiences (more than mere NDEs). Sill, there are countless others including Colton Burpo, Don Piper and a favorite, Ian McCormick.
There is a whole stream of Christians claiming to go to Heaven without dying- Justin Abraham; Mike Parsons; Nancy Cohen, etc, etc.
Eye witness testimony is perhaps the most prominent evidence used in law courts.
By design, the gospel was to be spread by word of mouth.
Without 'skepticism' it is impossible to please God. That's not what it says.
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Raf
WW kind of sideswiped a theory I've been working under for the past few years. I've brought it up before but it bears repeating. I have a suspicion (not enough evidence to call it a theory) that
Oakspear
Almost thou persuadest me to be an atheist
waysider
That's really big brush you're painting with there.
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JoyfulSoul
It is fun, and we could do this. There are just a couple who want to warn me all the time. What? Everything has been good natured from my end.
I don't know the special environment of every forum. This is the second thread where I made any comment
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Nathan_Jr
You know how to read? (Snark)
Spend some time doing that. (Not snark)
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WordWolf
A) So far, 124 posts' worth of lurking. Most people wouldn't call it "lurking" when they're posting that much. If you really have been here for 6 months and only recently started posting, then you WERE lurking.
B) That's open to disagreement. I suspect yours would be the minority opinion here.
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JoyfulSoul
Hello Sunshine,
Now you want to challenge the specifics of lurking. What a wonderful conversation.
Between May 19 and May 31 I didn't post. That can start again and that could grow. I'm trying not to get banned.
Lil' secret. If I did I wouldn't care all that much. I want everybody to be happy.
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Allan
Wayne really nailed it for me when he Exergised John 3:16 and then went into the meanings of eternal, forever and ages...
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Charity
This is NOT a criticism. I am wondering, though, how much study you have given to the topic of NDEs and whether you use skeptical and critical thinking when reading the studies or while listening to people describe their experiences?
The reason I'm asking is because I rarely did this when I was a Christian. However, during my deconversion and since then, I have learned the necessity for doing so.
The important question to ask is how much does one care whether what they believe is actually true or not? Are NDEs simply a matter of interest for you or is it something you base important beliefs upon?
*************
This is an example of what I mean. After seeing your post, I read Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality by Jeffrey Long, and I had some questions about a few things and decided to look into them. I checked and learned that he is a Christian who wrote God and the Afterlife which could mean that he has a biased perspective about NDEs.
I also researched whether his work was peer reviewed and found two reviews of his popular book Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near-Death Experiences . One was by Wendy Cousins and the other by J. Kenneth Arnette, both of whom have highly educated fields of study.
Arnette makes a number of critiques, a few of them being:
- a problem with Long's repeated use of the words "proof" and "the afterlife." "Proof" because Arnette claims, "At this point, the survival of consciousness cannot, through science, be established as a fact." "The afterlife" because "NDEs actually provide very little information about the nature of “the” afterlife, except perhaps for its initial appearance" and that the term “afterlife” is a loaded term, with much attached baggage and potentially a variety of interpretations." Arnette uses the term "survival of death.”
- explains ways in which Long's methodology is problematic
- that Long omits the research on "distressing NDEs" in his book (other than a mere mention of it and a referral to his website.) Arnette writes, "the likely result of Long’s detailed attention to pleasurable NDEs and virtual omission of attention to distressing ones is that readers come away with a simplistic impression of the range of possible experiences that might await them at death."
I could go further by looking up information about Arnette and his support of the "reality, meaning, and implications of NDEs" since his credentials include his involvement with the "Transpersonal Institute for the Scientific Study of the Paranormal" - oh my!
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Nathan_Jr
Mmmph
I am reminded of that book on ectoplasm and other such phenomena that TWI used to “study.” Wasn’t it published by American Christian Press, but later victor distanced himself from it?
Someone will know what I’m talking about. A mind is a terrible thing to lose - only so much room for bullshonta.
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Charity
Many self-proclaimed modern prophets, infected with the need for sensationalism, have given reports of out-of-body experiences, trips to heaven and hell, and face-to-face dialogues with angels, God and Jesus Christ.
A few are Mike Bickle, Chris Reed, Todd Bentley and Bob Jones who are all close past or present associates of Rick Joyner of MorningStar Ministries and have all given detailed descriptions of their visiting heaven.
Supernatural Story: Chris Reed Visits Library in Heaven
Jesus took Todd Bentley to the Gates of Hades (Rick Joyner on stage with him)
Mike Bickle: Heavenly Encounter
Rick Joyner
I find it interesting that in the past, preachers would preach scripture. Nowadays, for more and more preachers, the preaching of God's word comes through retelling their visits to heaven. Why is this becoming the norm for so many churches?
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waysider
Could it be Challenging Counterfeit or Angels Of Light? My copies, if I still have them, are probably buried in a box that's still waiting to be unpacked from my last move. Let's just say that finding them is not exactly high on my list of priorities at the moment. Yes, the mind is a terrible thing to lose. The same cannot be said of books filled with bullshonta.
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Nathan_Jr
By someone I meant you, Waysider. Do NOT dig that trash out. It could be one of those titles, but they aren’t ringing a bell. It might not have been published by ACP. It was heavily focused on the paranormal.
My mind is exactly where I left it, probably next to my sunglasses and keys. Once I find it, I’ll remember. Unless someone ELSE remembers first.
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waysider
The challenging counterfeit : Gasson, Raphael : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
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Nathan_Jr
I tried watching that video with Chris Reed. Holy Shonta!! What a charlatan fraud!
It’s interesting to me that these “spiritual” trips are so nonchalantly recounted with so much detail conveniently aligned with scripture, yet the DMT trip is indescribable as the most profound vision/experience of someone’s life.
Those telling stories of these trips to “spiritual realms” are the ones who haven’t been there.
I remain in awe of those who are in awe of these frauds.
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Nathan_Jr
That could be it. Is there a lot of scientific-sounding pseudo-science with pretentious technical language describing devil spirits and how they manifest and work in the natural realm?
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waysider
I was in a serious multi-vehicle accident a while back. I can remember where I was going, what the weather was like, the approximate time it happened and other general information. When you get to more specific details, like make, model, color of the other vehicles, what the other parties looked like, I draw a blank. I only know fine details from reading the accident report. So, excuse me for being skeptical when people offer up minute details. The only thing I remember clearly is looking up at someone asking if I have a DNR. Yeah, that detail sticks with me.
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Charity
My mind has gone in search of what DMT means in the Land of Acronyms and Text Abbreviations. Help bring in back home to me please. Thanx
Also, your highlighted line above - a wise person I know once told me "the one claiming to speak for God is surely the one who does not."
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Charity
Good point. DNR (that one I know) - your condition was even more serious than what I had thought before. So, so thankful you are still here Waysider.
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Nathan_Jr
Dimethyltryptamine
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine
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Nathan_Jr
My point is that profound events of disillusionment are not and cannot be so flippantly recounted. One may feel an urgency or excitement about retelling an experience, but ultimately realize any attempt is futile. Words become embarrassingly insufficient.
This is true for the religious/mystical experience, psychedelic trip and the astronaut's spacewalk.
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Charity
Ah, hence the word "trip" in your post.
I haven't heard anything so far about drug use with these guys but adultery and/or CSA was committed by all of them except Rich Joyner (as far as what's been reported). However, he and his church has recently been named in lawsuits for turning a blind eye to sexual grooming and assaults by a former youth group leader volunteer. The man went on to plead guilty to 10 counts to sexual conduct with a minor and assault and battery and was sentence to nine years in prison.
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Charity
It's so true - Mike Bickle was the worst of them. If you listen to his link above, it sounds like he's doing stand-up comedy when he talks about his visit to heaven.
What's even more sickening is that Bickle used his "golden chariot" prop from his story to help groom a 19-year-old female into having an affair with him by prophesying she would one day ride with him in it.
I realize I have gotten far off the topic of this thread but William Barlow and his parents were leaders in twi when John Shoenheit's paper on adultery was covertly being circulated. I wonder if any of his pages of questions were about twi's stance on adultery since the paper got John fired for writing it.
twi actually threatened the corps to not read it. Some here might have experienced this. So much for asking questions.
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Nathan_Jr
You can find plenty of discussions on that paper here. I read it, but don't remember it. I'm sure it's fine and its conclusion biblically supported. But I'm unimpressed.
That it was controversial speaks volumes. That anyone would need a theological paper to arrive at an ethical or moral conclusion about adultery speaks libraries.
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Charity
I've read it as well (years after the fact), but I have no interest in discussing it now. I was just wondering if anyone remembers the push back/warnings against reading it at the time or just being able to bring up the topic of adultery without any mention of the paper.
Being in Canada, I don't think it was well-known that the paper even existed, but then again I was out by 1986.
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Nathan_Jr
Yes. Many here have talked about it being schismatic. Lots of people left over the issue. IIRC, TWI didn't want people reading it and were ....ed JS even wrote it.
Again, that JS even felt like he had to write it is the whole problem. That grown adults didn't know what to believe about adultery and that they needed clear guidance on the issue is an even bigger problem.
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JoyfulSoul
You're asking if I'm stupid and gullible? Sometimes.
Eban Alexander and Mary Neal are a couple doctors and researchers claiming to have had death experiences (more than mere NDEs). Sill, there are countless others including Colton Burpo, Don Piper and a favorite, Ian McCormick.
There is a whole stream of Christians claiming to go to Heaven without dying- Justin Abraham; Mike Parsons; Nancy Cohen, etc, etc.
Eye witness testimony is perhaps the most prominent evidence used in law courts.
By design, the gospel was to be spread by word of mouth.
Without 'skepticism' it is impossible to please God. That's not what it says.
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