To make this easier for the person who requested it I am re-posting the e-mails in order:
My Daddy has been in banking since he was in college. He’s been District President over banks in several states for many, many years. When the debt policy was being enforced with full strength and people were being told to sell their homes, put on probation and labeled Mark & Avoid for not doing so, I asked my dad how we could pay cash for a house since The Way International (TWI) leadership was requiring it but not providing the practical “how to†instruction.
Daddy responded back saying:
Not much way to do home purchases without debt... it seems... so sorry!
BUT: a couple of angles...
1. It is possible to find someone who would "self finance" the
purchase...meaning they would let you pay them and at the end of some
term it would belong to you. Of course, it is financing, but between
individuals, which means the terms could be more favorable. In the
Orlando area I would assume there are numbers of folks who would be
agreeable to such arrangements. It happens here-that I am aware- at
least half-dozen or dozen times a year. It could be wealthy people who
own property and prefer the monthly payment plus interest instead of
putting money into CDs or the stock market. Oftentimes they can get a
better return, too. Or, someone who inherited property and just don't
want to sell in the regular real estate market and pay commissions, etc.
They don't need the property
but don't want to "cash out" right now.
2. The "main most" reason for purchasing homes in the USA is that the
interest paid is tax deductible...where it is not for other personal
debt. That makes home purchasing more important in tax planning. The
question becomes, do you want to pay taxes to the government, or legally
avoid that and build your own net worth - because you are paying for
something you can own. Plus, when you have that mortgage tax deduction,
then it makes other deductions get to IRS's hurdles for counting on the
tax return...further legally aiding the individual household... i.e.
monetary gifts to The Way would be tax deductible gifts (or, to
Mississippi State University,
United Way, Red Cross, Boy Scouts, etc....)
The Main Issue is: do you want to pay money unnecessarily to the
government, or do something that benefits you personally and creates
wealth for you?
Here's a "for instance": Let's assume your rent is $850/month. What
that gets you is a place to live in someone else's property. Nothing
more. Now, what if you were paying a mortgage payment of $850/month?
...
What would $850/month "buy"? .... A reasonable interest rate right
now would be 7. 25% for a regular 30 year mortgage. So, $850/mo, for
30 years, at 7.25% ... would finance a purchase of $124,600. In other
words, a payment of $850/mo for 30 years would pay a loan of $124,600 to
zero.
Interest the first year would be slightly less than $9000. If you are
paying taxes in the 30% tax bracket that means you've just reduced
your "tax bill" by about $2700 (30% X $9000)... more bluntly... if you
are currently getting a tax refund, then take that amount and add $2700
to it. You can stand that, can't you? Can't do that if you rent.
Two raps on home mortgages.... both of which I think are bogus in this
day-and-time.
a.) over a 30 year period you will pay total interest on the $124,600
borrowed of $181,400. But, the interest has been tax
deductible over that time. If this bothers you a lot, invest the tax
savings over that time and see what IT is worth in the 30 years! But,
mainly, that argument is so much baloney... AT LEAST at the end of the
30 years you own something. .... by renting, you keep putting money in
the pocket of the person owning the house. ...and you own nothing.
b.) what if the property declines in value and I have to take a loss
when I sell?
That could happen, and has in the recent past in different parts of the
USA. But, I wouldn't count on that happening in the Orlando area
anytime soon...period! Look at little ole Starkville: We paid
$189,000 for our house in 1991. Today we owe about $109,000, and our
house would sell tomorrow for at least $310,000... and we've had the
tax deduction all along!
So, to me the case for home ownership is a no-brainer. There are
bunches of good mortgage programs out there - especially for "first
time" home owners... little or no downpayment, low closing costs, etc.
....
the average length of time a particular home mortgage is outstanding, by
the way, is 7 or 8 years. So, people don't get a loan and live in the
same house forever... they move. Surprise!! So, if the values are
going up, it gives you an opportunity to "tap into" that gain at some
interval...you know, your Mom and I have owned 3 houses in little ole
Starkville!!
Well, hope this is of some value... let me know if you have other
Bob Moneyhands was, at the time, the Branch, Limb and Region Coordinator of Florida and Alabama (he may have still had oversight of Georgia too at the time but I can’t remember)
I sent my father’s e-mail to Bob and this is his reply:
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: Home Stuff - too
I am thankful for your dad's wisdom and insight. What he expresses is
what our biblical men are working on.... We want to firmly establish a
biblical foundation for our position that mortgages are debt, or we want
to be able to definitively say, as your dad can from an economic theory,
that a mortgage is not debt.
By the way, we have knowledge of a couple in AL that has been saving as
much as they possibly can over the last several years with the intent of
buying a house. They have been keeping track of foreclosures and finally
found a home that they like and could afford for CASH! It was a home
worth in the neighborhood of $75-100,000 and they purchased it for
$30,000. They have a minimum of immediate "fix up" to do. They are
thrilled that they fought to buy a home they could "afford" with cash.
Now they are in a position of strength and they, of course, don't
understand why anyone would pay the "going cost" for a home over a
30-year period (the pretty standard length of current mortgages).
I respect the knowledge your dad evidences in his communication. I
understand it (I was a business major for two years). I understand
assets and liabilities, and income and expenses. But the reason I
switched to math rather than continuing in business was that I could not
understand economics. It is based on the theory of supply and demand,
which fluctuate with trends, etc. Mathematics is based on an unchanging
standard.
When the Word of God became evident to me, it too, was unchanging.
(There are some biblical things that I am still working to understand,
but I am patient, because I know that God knows the answers and if I stay
faithful, He will fill me.)
I am passing on your dad's communication to The Way of the U.S.A. so
those working the Word on the subject have this input to consider. I
believe it is consistent with what we have received in the past, but it
is put in simple, clear, and definite terms. It is the best I have seen
so far. I appreciate his honesty to qualify his limited biblical
knowledge, yet to proclaim his authority from his background and career.
I appreciate his clarifying that beyond the tithe, it is up to the
disciplined ones to determine what to do with their income. (I would add
that we do with our income what is STILL consistent with the Word and
will of God, rather than just any old thing! Wisdom versus frivolity is
best whether coming from a biblical or secular position, and your dad
makes that very clear.)
That's all I have for now. What are you all thinking regarding your
dad's input? Thank you for sharing it with me. I thank God for your
dad. He has been a friend of ours and a friend to our ministry. His
willingness to work with you rather than to be critical is so
refreshingly positive.
Love, Bob
P. S. It is my impression you are endeavoring to be the best possible
stewards over that which you have responsibility and that you want to act
with God's blessing on your life. (So do I!) I think it is great you
are getting the best education you can. Take advantage of all of the
resources you have! Then your decisions are based on solid, clear
standards with which you believe you can live...and serve others, too.
My notes and comments posted on the board based on some research I’ve been doing on manipulation:
Rationalization – “we’re doing the same thing your dad is doing, but we’re going to stick to the Bible, not plain common senseâ€
Playing the Servant Role –this tactic cloaks their self-serving agendas in the guise of service to a more noble cause. By pretending to be working hard on someone else's behalf, they conceal their own ambition, desire for power, and quest for a position of dominance over others. The only master he serves is his own ambition..
Diversion – “change from the definition of debt to someone who has done what TWI wants people to doâ€
Shaming - an effective way to foster a continued sense of personal inadequacy in the weaker party, thereby allowing an aggressor to maintain a position of dominance. “They are in a position of strength†and subtly implying that someone who doesn’t pay cash is not in a position of strength. Rhetorical comments and subtle sarcasm. Imagine how much more effective this tactic would be in person.
Seduction- charming, praising, flattering or overtly supporting others in order to get them to lower their defenses and surrender their trust and loyalty.
There’s something else here, I just can’t put my finger on it. And I mean besides the fact that he just admitted that he doesn’t understand economics, so how the he11 can he say something is wrong or not if he doesn’t understand it?
Seduction- Again.
And, not being all that familiar with my dad, he possibly didn’t realize my dad was being semi-sarcastic when he stated that he may not be an “authority†on the Bible, but that he could definitely see where he didn’t think God would consider a mortgage evil and then why from his “authoritative†position of “worldly†knowledge.
My Daddy also commented that he was surprised that TWI was even trying to tell people what to do with their money.
See anything I missed? This was very perturbing at the time, but I couldn’t put my finger on why I was so p1ssed nor how to respond.
Bob Moneyhands’s response to reading the above e-mail:
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: Home Stuff - too
To answer your dad's question, The Way DID mortgage its Headquarters in
1974/5 for about 18 months in order to purchase The Way College of
Emporia. It was most distasteful to Dr. Wierwille and the original
Trustees, but they felt they needed the additional campus, saw that they
would be able to pay off debt for the campus within a limited number of
months, and then they aggressively worked to eliminate that debt. When
the debt was paid off, Dr. Wierwille announced it to those of us on Staff
at the time. Then he cut up the mortgage paper into small pieces and
distributed one piece to each in-residence Way Corps person. He said
that he wanted that to remind them to never mortgage our Headquarters
again.
Our ministry acknowledges that borrowing takes place and it is talked
about in the old testament. We further acknowledge that the commerce
practices and trade practices of antiquity up until today are time-tested
and universally accepted.
What we have taught is that the follower of the Lord Jesus Christ needs
to be in a position of strength. Debt, (and your dad's point about
MISMANAGEMENT OF DEBT being the main concern is well taken), is something
that is universally accepted by most U.S. citizens. These people do not
have the background and understanding that the district president of a
bank has. That's why you have to ask questions.
(You grew up in the home of a man with extensive knowledge and experience
in the field, but what were you taught then about debt and mortgages?
The quality of your life indicates that you were instructed on many
things. Your dad is a great man and a wonderful father and father-in-law
and friend. However, you are asking questions because (a) he did not
teach you that information or (b) he taught you and you ignored him!)
You are asking questions now and your loving dad is teaching you what he
knows now! And that is good. You realize his abilities and he realizes
your desire to make educated, informed decisions.
The Bible clearly says that the borrower is slave to the lender and that
is something that every believer must deal with when/if he enters into a
debt. Regardless of what decision you make regarding a mortgage, it is
clear that you are going to be an informed, confident consumer and that
you will be able to count the entire cost, both spiritually and
financially.
Honestly, I have been thinking about this topic for over a year. I have
heard equally convincing arguments from both sides--the financial advice
being "enter into mortgage, it's smart," to the biblical advice being
"debt in all forms is wrong."
Though having a home with a mortgage seems to be preferable to some of
our disciples, many desire MORE to be in the center of the will of God
and are willing to await the conclusive results of the study before
entering into a mortgage. There are others who did not enter into a
mortgage because Craig "said" mortgages were wrong. They feel they
cannot wait any longer, and they must buy now. Freedom of will is not
the issue; that's a given. The best choice is the issue for me. I want
to know what the Word says.
I am thankful Rev. Rivenbark has assigned this project to biblically and
financially knowledgeable men and women to examine and settle so that we
can make the best decisions possible. I am thankful for those who
patiently work the information on their own and anticipate the decision
from Headquarters.
Isn't it great to have the best in both "worlds"? Your dad's insight and
your Father's! Love, Bob
*********************************
quote:
(You grew up in the home of a man with extensive knowledge and experience
in the field, but what were you taught then about debt and mortgages?
The quality of your life indicates that you were instructed on many
things. Your dad is a great man and a wonderful father and father-in-law
and friend. However, you are asking questions because (a) he did not
teach you that information or (b) he taught you and you ignored him!)
Actually, Bob, I was asking questions because everything coming out of the mouth of TWIts contradicted what my Daddy taught me. Smile (insert an imitation of one of your sarcastic smirks here) I also, did NOT ignore my Daddy and he’ll tell you so. That’s the reason I didn’t have money problems before getting involved with your little cult. I had financed a car and WISH I had financed a house prior to becoming involved. My Daddy taught that those are considered good management of my money providing I can easily make my payments each month and I am not living beyond my means. TWI doesn’t teach that, they keep people in bondage, but you do a very good job of using the tactics mentioned in the “Manipulative People†thread.
Wow, a lot of great things said here, so I thought as a licensed financial advisor and one licensed to supervise financial advisors, I might throw in my two cents.
Math doesn't lie. Look at your situation and see where you come out ahead in the end. Mortgage or rent? Both of them are a mortgage. One is yours and one is someone elses. For twi to say a mortgage is wrong is ludricrous. The ABS of "in debt" believers has been and is still paying tons of landlords' mortgages as we speak and especially during the years we were all encouraged to sell our houses and rent.
My mortgage that I was granted in 1994 was touted in the corps teachings by lcm as a manifestation of believing if not a miracle. S*m and Chery** Wa**on used it for the entire year as a teaching example of how my beleiving had brought the impossible to pass. It was not considered debt at that time because I could sell it and pay it off. How quickly things changed!
By the way the very first thing I found fascinating in my debt research was that the word borrower and the word lender in the much quoted "the borrower is servant to the lender" verse are the exact same word! How could that be was a question I pondered at length until I realized that it was not a judgement verse but a statement of fact. With money comes power. Not that rich are good and poor are bad. To borrow there must be one that lends. You can't have the transaction without both. In our terminology the borrower is servant to the lender but in reality the lender is also serving the borrower by lending him money. No judgement - just statment of fact.
Money brings power. And lending it to someone is a service. Paying it back is also a service.
Life IS so much fun when you can think and especially when you can do it without TWIt blinders on. I'm sure my dad was shaking his head and thinking, "I can't believe we're having this conversation" the whole time he was helping me.
Thanks for all the good info. I always had this argument with our BC's. Show me the logic of having a $400 mortgage vs getting stuck with a $700 rent for something even close to comparable. I guess they figured all that money not going to interest would go to their pockets fot these BoD advances in the Bahamas. :(-->
This is a point I have said before. When you sell your house for twice as much as what you bought it for and twi wants what you make off of the GROSS selling of your home. They make a ton more in ABS.
Stupid Is As Stupid Does. Just the opposite of Forest Gump.
Hell twi has not even tapped into the richness of their innies if they thought about it.
Here we go helping twi again. This is not even closing down a web site that has the word "Way" in it.
Put together $100 to make a class (Economy 101). Get your facts straight. Teach it to the 3 or 4 you have left. Charge $300.00 for the class and then micro manage the hell out of them and you will see great profit. Fuc-'n dumb butts.
I thank you from the bottom of my heart for posting those emails.
Right now I am trying to help my husband undo twi 'logic' so that we can move ahead with financial stability...and now that I've seen these emails from your father, we can also move ahead with financial gain.
These emails are priceless for a juxtapositional presentation of twi 'logic' vs sound, professional financial advice.
THANK YOU!!!!!
PS--Last evening was our church's First Friday Fellowship evening. It was all about how God provides when there is no other option. During one of the prayer times financial hardships and decisions were the subject. This kind of knowledge and wisdom was exactly my prayer request. :)-->
Obviously the debt issue is still a big issue with those who are still involved with TWI. They haven't changed their stance one iota and they continue to dodge questions or provide vague generalities with no concrete "how to" teachings on this issue. So much for the "We're a 'how to' ministry" - it's a "do as we say without asking any questions ministry".
This is still the number one question I get asked about in private messages - and, WAYGB, I get asked about it quite frequently. Lately, though, there have been a lot of PMs to me on it, and that's why I'm bringing these to the top instead of merely providing the links in the PM like I have been doing.
A couple whom I have known all my life, and whom I love very much were once involved in TWI. When they were nearing retirement age, they decided to buy a house in Florida. They worked very hard for five years, picking up overtime when they could, and in five years time, were able to pay off a morgage for a small house in Florida.
They moved to Florida, debt free before the policy was even thought of.
When they came, they found a fellowship, and became active in it. They spoke the word to everyone they met, went to meetings, abundantly shared of their money and time, and did all with thanksgiving. Basically, they did everything and more than they were asked to do.
Well, when the debt free policy came about, the twig coordinators of this couple called them, and asked them how much they owed on the house, and on their cars, and other things. And the couple replied, "None of your business."
Shortly afterwards, Rev. Moneyhands sent them a letter, telling them they were no longer welcome at TWI, and they would be happier at church. Now, tell me where in the Word does it say that twig coordinators need to know your financial business, and where does it say that ordained clergy should insult people who have given everything with gladness? I guess in TWI's twisted world.
This debt free policy isn't all about how much money you owe, but about how much control TWI can have over you. Belle, I hope the people who PM you get out quickly.
That sounds like the way Moneyhands treated many people around here. It was cruel, cold and callous. He should be ashamed at the people he hurt and should apologize to them for it as other leaders have done. It is my belief that he is too prideful to do that ever. Not man enough as I see it and also afraid. I'm glad I'm not like that.
and I don't know about you guys, but 30,000 around here will buy just about nothing, short of an old meth lab...garage or hmm, a good lawnshed maybe. Even 70,000 will put you in gang territory, if that. Maybe that couple did find soemthing in Alabama, but I also think they have know idea what the vocabulary word "appreciation" means besides donating bodies to derVig.
Yeah...I had a few run-ins with Bob Moneyhands myself. He's one of those guys that's so full of himself, so self righteous, so unwilling to admit he's EVER wrong...why...he's perfect for twi!
30,000 is not even much of a down payment around here.
I left before BM (lol) took over down there and I believe the G****s' took my parent's place. From what I have heard from folks down there and read on here it seems they undid a lot of the good my folks had done. It seems like that was the way of the 90's.
Seems odd that no one I have heard of in twi has ever said anything about the word "landLORD"
Rent is debt.
Homeownership is the only way out of that one.
Or homelessness.
We have some great ones around here. I saw a guy holding a sign up the other day that said, "Won't work for sh!+." His buddy next to him had one that said, "Broke, tired, and ugly. Anything will help."
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Belle
Bringing this to the top by request.
:D-->
Hi Bob!
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Belle
To make this easier for the person who requested it I am re-posting the e-mails in order:
My Daddy has been in banking since he was in college. He’s been District President over banks in several states for many, many years. When the debt policy was being enforced with full strength and people were being told to sell their homes, put on probation and labeled Mark & Avoid for not doing so, I asked my dad how we could pay cash for a house since The Way International (TWI) leadership was requiring it but not providing the practical “how to†instruction.
Daddy responded back saying:
Not much way to do home purchases without debt... it seems... so sorry!
BUT: a couple of angles...
1. It is possible to find someone who would "self finance" the
purchase...meaning they would let you pay them and at the end of some
term it would belong to you. Of course, it is financing, but between
individuals, which means the terms could be more favorable. In the
Orlando area I would assume there are numbers of folks who would be
agreeable to such arrangements. It happens here-that I am aware- at
least half-dozen or dozen times a year. It could be wealthy people who
own property and prefer the monthly payment plus interest instead of
putting money into CDs or the stock market. Oftentimes they can get a
better return, too. Or, someone who inherited property and just don't
want to sell in the regular real estate market and pay commissions, etc.
They don't need the property
but don't want to "cash out" right now.
2. The "main most" reason for purchasing homes in the USA is that the
interest paid is tax deductible...where it is not for other personal
debt. That makes home purchasing more important in tax planning. The
question becomes, do you want to pay taxes to the government, or legally
avoid that and build your own net worth - because you are paying for
something you can own. Plus, when you have that mortgage tax deduction,
then it makes other deductions get to IRS's hurdles for counting on the
tax return...further legally aiding the individual household... i.e.
monetary gifts to The Way would be tax deductible gifts (or, to
Mississippi State University,
United Way, Red Cross, Boy Scouts, etc....)
The Main Issue is: do you want to pay money unnecessarily to the
government, or do something that benefits you personally and creates
wealth for you?
Here's a "for instance": Let's assume your rent is $850/month. What
that gets you is a place to live in someone else's property. Nothing
more. Now, what if you were paying a mortgage payment of $850/month?
...
What would $850/month "buy"? .... A reasonable interest rate right
now would be 7. 25% for a regular 30 year mortgage. So, $850/mo, for
30 years, at 7.25% ... would finance a purchase of $124,600. In other
words, a payment of $850/mo for 30 years would pay a loan of $124,600 to
zero.
Interest the first year would be slightly less than $9000. If you are
paying taxes in the 30% tax bracket that means you've just reduced
your "tax bill" by about $2700 (30% X $9000)... more bluntly... if you
are currently getting a tax refund, then take that amount and add $2700
to it. You can stand that, can't you? Can't do that if you rent.
Two raps on home mortgages.... both of which I think are bogus in this
day-and-time.
a.) over a 30 year period you will pay total interest on the $124,600
borrowed of $181,400. But, the interest has been tax
deductible over that time. If this bothers you a lot, invest the tax
savings over that time and see what IT is worth in the 30 years! But,
mainly, that argument is so much baloney... AT LEAST at the end of the
30 years you own something. .... by renting, you keep putting money in
the pocket of the person owning the house. ...and you own nothing.
b.) what if the property declines in value and I have to take a loss
when I sell?
That could happen, and has in the recent past in different parts of the
USA. But, I wouldn't count on that happening in the Orlando area
anytime soon...period! Look at little ole Starkville: We paid
$189,000 for our house in 1991. Today we owe about $109,000, and our
house would sell tomorrow for at least $310,000... and we've had the
tax deduction all along!
So, to me the case for home ownership is a no-brainer. There are
bunches of good mortgage programs out there - especially for "first
time" home owners... little or no downpayment, low closing costs, etc.
....
the average length of time a particular home mortgage is outstanding, by
the way, is 7 or 8 years. So, people don't get a loan and live in the
same house forever... they move. Surprise!! So, if the values are
going up, it gives you an opportunity to "tap into" that gain at some
interval...you know, your Mom and I have owned 3 houses in little ole
Starkville!!
Well, hope this is of some value... let me know if you have other
questions... Love, Dad
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*****************************************
Bob Moneyhands was, at the time, the Branch, Limb and Region Coordinator of Florida and Alabama (he may have still had oversight of Georgia too at the time but I can’t remember)
I sent my father’s e-mail to Bob and this is his reply:
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: Home Stuff - too
I am thankful for your dad's wisdom and insight. What he expresses is
what our biblical men are working on.... We want to firmly establish a
biblical foundation for our position that mortgages are debt, or we want
to be able to definitively say, as your dad can from an economic theory,
that a mortgage is not debt.
By the way, we have knowledge of a couple in AL that has been saving as
much as they possibly can over the last several years with the intent of
buying a house. They have been keeping track of foreclosures and finally
found a home that they like and could afford for CASH! It was a home
worth in the neighborhood of $75-100,000 and they purchased it for
$30,000. They have a minimum of immediate "fix up" to do. They are
thrilled that they fought to buy a home they could "afford" with cash.
Now they are in a position of strength and they, of course, don't
understand why anyone would pay the "going cost" for a home over a
30-year period (the pretty standard length of current mortgages).
I respect the knowledge your dad evidences in his communication. I
understand it (I was a business major for two years). I understand
assets and liabilities, and income and expenses. But the reason I
switched to math rather than continuing in business was that I could not
understand economics. It is based on the theory of supply and demand,
which fluctuate with trends, etc. Mathematics is based on an unchanging
standard.
When the Word of God became evident to me, it too, was unchanging.
(There are some biblical things that I am still working to understand,
but I am patient, because I know that God knows the answers and if I stay
faithful, He will fill me.)
I am passing on your dad's communication to The Way of the U.S.A. so
those working the Word on the subject have this input to consider. I
believe it is consistent with what we have received in the past, but it
is put in simple, clear, and definite terms. It is the best I have seen
so far. I appreciate his honesty to qualify his limited biblical
knowledge, yet to proclaim his authority from his background and career.
I appreciate his clarifying that beyond the tithe, it is up to the
disciplined ones to determine what to do with their income. (I would add
that we do with our income what is STILL consistent with the Word and
will of God, rather than just any old thing! Wisdom versus frivolity is
best whether coming from a biblical or secular position, and your dad
makes that very clear.)
That's all I have for now. What are you all thinking regarding your
dad's input? Thank you for sharing it with me. I thank God for your
dad. He has been a friend of ours and a friend to our ministry. His
willingness to work with you rather than to be critical is so
refreshingly positive.
Love, Bob
P. S. It is my impression you are endeavoring to be the best possible
stewards over that which you have responsibility and that you want to act
with God's blessing on your life. (So do I!) I think it is great you
are getting the best education you can. Take advantage of all of the
resources you have! Then your decisions are based on solid, clear
standards with which you believe you can live...and serve others, too.
***************
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Belle
My notes and comments posted on the board based on some research I’ve been doing on manipulation:
Rationalization – “we’re doing the same thing your dad is doing, but we’re going to stick to the Bible, not plain common senseâ€
Playing the Servant Role –this tactic cloaks their self-serving agendas in the guise of service to a more noble cause. By pretending to be working hard on someone else's behalf, they conceal their own ambition, desire for power, and quest for a position of dominance over others. The only master he serves is his own ambition..
Diversion – “change from the definition of debt to someone who has done what TWI wants people to doâ€
Shaming - an effective way to foster a continued sense of personal inadequacy in the weaker party, thereby allowing an aggressor to maintain a position of dominance. “They are in a position of strength†and subtly implying that someone who doesn’t pay cash is not in a position of strength. Rhetorical comments and subtle sarcasm. Imagine how much more effective this tactic would be in person.
Seduction- charming, praising, flattering or overtly supporting others in order to get them to lower their defenses and surrender their trust and loyalty.
There’s something else here, I just can’t put my finger on it. And I mean besides the fact that he just admitted that he doesn’t understand economics, so how the he11 can he say something is wrong or not if he doesn’t understand it?
Seduction- Again.
And, not being all that familiar with my dad, he possibly didn’t realize my dad was being semi-sarcastic when he stated that he may not be an “authority†on the Bible, but that he could definitely see where he didn’t think God would consider a mortgage evil and then why from his “authoritative†position of “worldly†knowledge.
My Daddy also commented that he was surprised that TWI was even trying to tell people what to do with their money.
See anything I missed? This was very perturbing at the time, but I couldn’t put my finger on why I was so p1ssed nor how to respond.
**************
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Belle
My father’s Response after I forwarded the above e-mail from Bob Moneyhands to him with a bit of venting:
Hi!! Well, I've seen debt get folks in big trouble... so, generally
being very careful with it is a good idea! Home ownership is a little
different, in that you have the double whammy of tax deduction and
building wealth. I vote for that!!
... not for me to be "Biblical" in the mortgage debt issue! But, the
entire banking industry from the beginnings of commerce in the world is
predicated on those having wealth (deposits) keeping that wealth in one
spot (a bank) for safe keeping and earnings (interest earned), and the
bank knowing those with deposits do not want all their wealth at one
time can then "loan" the other's wealth to those needing "wealth" ...
hence, loans.
We "buy" funds from folks, and "sell" to others... a form of commerce,
just like going to the grocery store. Sorry, I don't buy into the
notion that debt, in and of itself, is bad. Mismanagement of debt is
bad. If all felt that debt is bad, there would be no banking industry!
We "loan" money lots of different ways... besides "people to people"
...anytime someone, or something, needs funds TODAY for something, but
can only pay for it with TOMORROW's money - it's a debt. For instance,
the US Government sells US Treasury Securities to do it's important
day-to-day work... like building highways, buying military equipment,
building government office buildings, etc. That sort of borrowing is in
the papers often - it's called the National Debt !! (ever hear Gore or
Bush talk about that?) .... The State of Florida, or the City of Winter Springs
create debt to do things government should do for its constituencies -
again, to build highways, to build schools ...hey, to buy police cars.
The source of repayment is taxes... what we all pay. Sometime those
kinds of debt are called Bonds... or, Indenture Agreements... not
always called flat-out loans... but, that is really what they are.
Here's a better question... ask someone if The Way has ever borrowed
any money for that Ohio facility... by the pictures that is a very nice
place! My guess... if not now, at some time in the past the organization
has borrowed money for that facility.
The very question to me, again, is Managing Debt... not that debt
itself is bad. Beyond your tithe your funds are yours to manage... some
do that better than others. (after all, if it were not for "money", how
would we manage our lives? ... by bartering... not very efficient...).
Remember,if you purchase something that will last for, and have value
after 30 years, then it is appropriate to pay for it over that same 30
years. The premise of home mortgages...
Trying to get an owner to do the "self financing" is not a bad
deal...sort of a "rent to own" theory. Seems that should pass muster.
If the amount of monthly payment is roughly the same as true rent, and
the "rent to own" idea positively affects the parishioner - then that
seems to be a good thing.
Anyway, throw more questions my way.... Love, Dad
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Belle
*****************************************
Bob Moneyhands’s response to reading the above e-mail:
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: Home Stuff - too
To answer your dad's question, The Way DID mortgage its Headquarters in
1974/5 for about 18 months in order to purchase The Way College of
Emporia. It was most distasteful to Dr. Wierwille and the original
Trustees, but they felt they needed the additional campus, saw that they
would be able to pay off debt for the campus within a limited number of
months, and then they aggressively worked to eliminate that debt. When
the debt was paid off, Dr. Wierwille announced it to those of us on Staff
at the time. Then he cut up the mortgage paper into small pieces and
distributed one piece to each in-residence Way Corps person. He said
that he wanted that to remind them to never mortgage our Headquarters
again.
Our ministry acknowledges that borrowing takes place and it is talked
about in the old testament. We further acknowledge that the commerce
practices and trade practices of antiquity up until today are time-tested
and universally accepted.
What we have taught is that the follower of the Lord Jesus Christ needs
to be in a position of strength. Debt, (and your dad's point about
MISMANAGEMENT OF DEBT being the main concern is well taken), is something
that is universally accepted by most U.S. citizens. These people do not
have the background and understanding that the district president of a
bank has. That's why you have to ask questions.
(You grew up in the home of a man with extensive knowledge and experience
in the field, but what were you taught then about debt and mortgages?
The quality of your life indicates that you were instructed on many
things. Your dad is a great man and a wonderful father and father-in-law
and friend. However, you are asking questions because (a) he did not
teach you that information or (b) he taught you and you ignored him!)
You are asking questions now and your loving dad is teaching you what he
knows now! And that is good. You realize his abilities and he realizes
your desire to make educated, informed decisions.
The Bible clearly says that the borrower is slave to the lender and that
is something that every believer must deal with when/if he enters into a
debt. Regardless of what decision you make regarding a mortgage, it is
clear that you are going to be an informed, confident consumer and that
you will be able to count the entire cost, both spiritually and
financially.
Honestly, I have been thinking about this topic for over a year. I have
heard equally convincing arguments from both sides--the financial advice
being "enter into mortgage, it's smart," to the biblical advice being
"debt in all forms is wrong."
Though having a home with a mortgage seems to be preferable to some of
our disciples, many desire MORE to be in the center of the will of God
and are willing to await the conclusive results of the study before
entering into a mortgage. There are others who did not enter into a
mortgage because Craig "said" mortgages were wrong. They feel they
cannot wait any longer, and they must buy now. Freedom of will is not
the issue; that's a given. The best choice is the issue for me. I want
to know what the Word says.
I am thankful Rev. Rivenbark has assigned this project to biblically and
financially knowledgeable men and women to examine and settle so that we
can make the best decisions possible. I am thankful for those who
patiently work the information on their own and anticipate the decision
from Headquarters.
Isn't it great to have the best in both "worlds"? Your dad's insight and
your Father's! Love, Bob
*********************************
quote:
(You grew up in the home of a man with extensive knowledge and experience
in the field, but what were you taught then about debt and mortgages?
The quality of your life indicates that you were instructed on many
things. Your dad is a great man and a wonderful father and father-in-law
and friend. However, you are asking questions because (a) he did not
teach you that information or (b) he taught you and you ignored him!)
Actually, Bob, I was asking questions because everything coming out of the mouth of TWIts contradicted what my Daddy taught me. Smile (insert an imitation of one of your sarcastic smirks here) I also, did NOT ignore my Daddy and he’ll tell you so. That’s the reason I didn’t have money problems before getting involved with your little cult. I had financed a car and WISH I had financed a house prior to becoming involved. My Daddy taught that those are considered good management of my money providing I can easily make my payments each month and I am not living beyond my means. TWI doesn’t teach that, they keep people in bondage, but you do a very good job of using the tactics mentioned in the “Manipulative People†thread.
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napkinlady
Wow, a lot of great things said here, so I thought as a licensed financial advisor and one licensed to supervise financial advisors, I might throw in my two cents.
Math doesn't lie. Look at your situation and see where you come out ahead in the end. Mortgage or rent? Both of them are a mortgage. One is yours and one is someone elses. For twi to say a mortgage is wrong is ludricrous. The ABS of "in debt" believers has been and is still paying tons of landlords' mortgages as we speak and especially during the years we were all encouraged to sell our houses and rent.
My mortgage that I was granted in 1994 was touted in the corps teachings by lcm as a manifestation of believing if not a miracle. S*m and Chery** Wa**on used it for the entire year as a teaching example of how my beleiving had brought the impossible to pass. It was not considered debt at that time because I could sell it and pay it off. How quickly things changed!
By the way the very first thing I found fascinating in my debt research was that the word borrower and the word lender in the much quoted "the borrower is servant to the lender" verse are the exact same word! How could that be was a question I pondered at length until I realized that it was not a judgement verse but a statement of fact. With money comes power. Not that rich are good and poor are bad. To borrow there must be one that lends. You can't have the transaction without both. In our terminology the borrower is servant to the lender but in reality the lender is also serving the borrower by lending him money. No judgement - just statment of fact.
Money brings power. And lending it to someone is a service. Paying it back is also a service.
Isn't life fun when you get to think??
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Belle
Life IS so much fun when you can think and especially when you can do it without TWIt blinders on. I'm sure my dad was shaking his head and thinking, "I can't believe we're having this conversation" the whole time he was helping me.
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railroader
Thanks for all the good info. I always had this argument with our BC's. Show me the logic of having a $400 mortgage vs getting stuck with a $700 rent for something even close to comparable. I guess they figured all that money not going to interest would go to their pockets fot these BoD advances in the Bahamas.
:(-->
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justloafing
This is a point I have said before. When you sell your house for twice as much as what you bought it for and twi wants what you make off of the GROSS selling of your home. They make a ton more in ABS.
Stupid Is As Stupid Does. Just the opposite of Forest Gump.
Hell twi has not even tapped into the richness of their innies if they thought about it.
Here we go helping twi again. This is not even closing down a web site that has the word "Way" in it.
Put together $100 to make a class (Economy 101). Get your facts straight. Teach it to the 3 or 4 you have left. Charge $300.00 for the class and then micro manage the hell out of them and you will see great profit. Fuc-'n dumb butts.
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Radar OReilly
Now THAT is an awesome description of the whole manic cult.
ROR
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CoolWaters
Belle,
I thank you from the bottom of my heart for posting those emails.
Right now I am trying to help my husband undo twi 'logic' so that we can move ahead with financial stability...and now that I've seen these emails from your father, we can also move ahead with financial gain.
These emails are priceless for a juxtapositional presentation of twi 'logic' vs sound, professional financial advice.
THANK YOU!!!!!
PS--Last evening was our church's First Friday Fellowship evening. It was all about how God provides when there is no other option. During one of the prayer times financial hardships and decisions were the subject. This kind of knowledge and wisdom was exactly my prayer request.
:)-->
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Belle
Obviously the debt issue is still a big issue with those who are still involved with TWI. They haven't changed their stance one iota and they continue to dodge questions or provide vague generalities with no concrete "how to" teachings on this issue. So much for the "We're a 'how to' ministry" - it's a "do as we say without asking any questions ministry".
This is still the number one question I get asked about in private messages - and, WAYGB, I get asked about it quite frequently. Lately, though, there have been a lot of PMs to me on it, and that's why I'm bringing these to the top instead of merely providing the links in the PM like I have been doing.
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VeganXTC
A couple whom I have known all my life, and whom I love very much were once involved in TWI. When they were nearing retirement age, they decided to buy a house in Florida. They worked very hard for five years, picking up overtime when they could, and in five years time, were able to pay off a morgage for a small house in Florida.
They moved to Florida, debt free before the policy was even thought of.
When they came, they found a fellowship, and became active in it. They spoke the word to everyone they met, went to meetings, abundantly shared of their money and time, and did all with thanksgiving. Basically, they did everything and more than they were asked to do.
Well, when the debt free policy came about, the twig coordinators of this couple called them, and asked them how much they owed on the house, and on their cars, and other things. And the couple replied, "None of your business."
Shortly afterwards, Rev. Moneyhands sent them a letter, telling them they were no longer welcome at TWI, and they would be happier at church. Now, tell me where in the Word does it say that twig coordinators need to know your financial business, and where does it say that ordained clergy should insult people who have given everything with gladness? I guess in TWI's twisted world.
This debt free policy isn't all about how much money you owe, but about how much control TWI can have over you. Belle, I hope the people who PM you get out quickly.
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igotout
That sounds like the way Moneyhands treated many people around here. It was cruel, cold and callous. He should be ashamed at the people he hurt and should apologize to them for it as other leaders have done. It is my belief that he is too prideful to do that ever. Not man enough as I see it and also afraid. I'm glad I'm not like that.
John Richeson
Tampa, FL
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washingtonweather
and I don't know about you guys, but 30,000 around here will buy just about nothing, short of an old meth lab...garage or hmm, a good lawnshed maybe. Even 70,000 will put you in gang territory, if that. Maybe that couple did find soemthing in Alabama, but I also think they have know idea what the vocabulary word "appreciation" means besides donating bodies to derVig.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Yeah...I had a few run-ins with Bob Moneyhands myself. He's one of those guys that's so full of himself, so self righteous, so unwilling to admit he's EVER wrong...why...he's perfect for twi!
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shortfuse
damn. maybe this is some of the reason for his overseas outreach ambassador assignment?
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dmiller
Gotta love the twi *mindset*.
<_<
Is there a space ship coming to take them away?? I hope they get on board.
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lindyhopper
30,000 is not even much of a down payment around here.
I left before BM (lol) took over down there and I believe the G****s' took my parent's place. From what I have heard from folks down there and read on here it seems they undid a lot of the good my folks had done. It seems like that was the way of the 90's.
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lindyhopper
...and to get back on topic.
"The borrower is slave to the lender"
Seems odd that no one I have heard of in twi has ever said anything about the word "landLORD"
Rent is debt.
Homeownership is the only way out of that one.
Or homelessness.
We have some great ones around here. I saw a guy holding a sign up the other day that said, "Won't work for sh!+." His buddy next to him had one that said, "Broke, tired, and ugly. Anything will help."
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Twinky
Belle, Glad to see this topic high on the list.
Still think there should be a document (Belle has something useful) set in the Editorial section so it's RIGHT IN THE FACE of newbies and innies.
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igotout
Yes, rent is debt.
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Kevlar2000
I only have one thing to say about the Way's "no-debt" policy
(well, I actually have several things to say about it [and I have]. but the one word that seems to predominate in my mind is - )
stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid
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