Are you ever to old for?

[mj412]

By Arthur Caplan, Ph.D.

COMMENTARY

MSNBC

Updated: 9:22 p.m. ET Nov. 10, 2004

Aleta St. James is the latest celebrity to enter the "Are you ever too old to have a baby?" sweepstakes. St. James is a singer and self-described "healer" with lots of Hollywood clients. She is also the sister of Curtis Sliwa, the New York radio personality who founded the crime-fighting group the Guardian Angels.

morning, three days shy of her 57th birthday, she gave birth to twins — a boy and a girl — at Mount Sinai Medical Center in New York City. The babies were delivered by Caesarean section. Born three weeks premature, they were taken to the neonatal nursery where both were reported to be doing well.

St. James is not married. She used an egg made available by a stranger and sperm reportedly donated by a former boyfriend to achieve the pregnancy. In response to media questions about why she had decided to have children at age 57 she responded, "It is never too late. You are never too old. It is just in your mind."

The doctors to whom she paid more than $25,000 for the treatments that resulted in her pregnancy apparently did not think she was too old. And her family, as well as a gaggle of reporters, deemed her upbeat answer (in addition to her healing work, St. James is a motivational speaker) a more-than-sufficient response. Her father, who is well into his '80s, said that he now has two big reasons to want to keep on living.

What it means to be an older parent

But is it really the case that it's never too late and that you are never too old to parent?

It is hard to even raise this question without seeming like a moral busybody. What right does anyone have to challenge the reproductive decisions of another person? But, that line of argument is simply wrong-headed. If decisions as important as when to have children are not open to ethical comment and discussion, then what is worthy of ethical analysis — decisions about what color to paint the living room?

I have a lot of doubts about St. James’ decision. I also have a lot of doubts about the wisdom of the doctors who decided to help a 57-year-old woman have twins.

Let's think for a minute about what it means to have twins at 57. What it means is that when your twins are about to enter high school, say at the age of 14, you are 71. Now I know that there are many grandparents who have successfully raised kids when the children's own parents could not. But it is one thing for two older people to deal with a difficult situation and make the best of it. It is quite different to deliberately create a situation where a single, 71-year-old parent who has been eligible for Medicare for seven years must deal with twins entering both puberty and high school.

If you talk to children of older parents, most will tell you that they worried quite a bit about whether their parents would live to see them graduate from high school. Others will tell you that as much as they loved their parents they missed having someone who could do all the physically demanding things that younger parents can do. Putting aside the proven risks to babies and mothers when women over 40 attempt childbirth, is it really all that nuts to suggest that 57 is just too old to start raising two children by yourself?

The doctors who agreed to help St. James become pregnant dismissed such worries about her age. They said no one complains when an older man, say a Tony Randall or a Clint Eastwood or a Strom Thurmond, has a baby. Notice, however, that two of these men have died since creating a baby very late in life. Is that good for the child?

Sending the wrong message

In addition, there is a special problem created when an older, single woman has twins. When old men have babies they usually do so with much younger wives, so at least one parent will be present if the father dies. There may be no one around to be the parent if an older woman gets sick, becomes disabled or worse, dies.

SPECIAL REPORT

This is why most nations, which have laws governing the use of reproductive technology, would not have allowed a 57-year-old single mom to become pregnant. This is why adoption agencies view requests from people who are single and much older with wariness. And this is why the ethics guidelines of the American Society for Reproductive Medicine discourage what the doctors in this case have done.

St. James said that it is never too late to have a child. And the miracles of reproductive technology do appear to support her statement. The parade of fifty-something celebrity moms who proclaim their pregnancies on the morning talk shows could give any young woman the impression that there is no rush to reproduce because medical technology can bail them out if need be.

But this is simply not true. St. James had to use donor sperm and an egg, which was "donated" but more accurately bought from an anonymous stranger. The doctors could not create a baby biologically related to her but instead used reproductive technology to achieve what is in effect a new form of adoption. Adoption is a wonderful thing but many people want to have a genetic relationship with their children if possible and that is not something that today’s reproductive technology can do for women in their fifties and older.

It is not true that it is never too late to have your own biological baby and younger women need to understand that fact.

A legal minefield

Keep in mind, too, that when donor sperm and eggs are used a potential legal minefield is created. If either the source of the sperm or the eggs decides to assert parental rights over St. James’ twins they will likely be successful. A court in Erie, Pa., has just ruled that a woman hired by a single man as a surrogate mother has just such a right. At any time in the lives of the children the person who supplied the sperm may try to enter into St. James life. And despite the anonymity of the person who supplied the egg, she might be able to litigate her way to an answer should she ever decide to find out who has "her" baby.

Or, St. James’ children may decide at some point that they want to know, just as more and more adopted children do, who their biological parents are. Courts traditionally show little respect for anonymity in the face of such requests.

Watching a new family come into being is a wonderful thing, but let’s not kid ourselves. The new reproductive technologies raise a lot of difficult ethical questions for patients and doctors about who should use them, why and when. Society needs to be sure that as we stand in amazement watching medicine circumvent nature’s reproductive limits, nothing is done to put the best interests of the children that are created at risk.

Arthur Caplan is director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania.

When they turn twenty she will be 77 years old.

I think she is being selfish a single mom to boot. what do you think?

[Nottawayfer]

I guess it depends on the individual. I am 41, newly married, and definitely trying to get pregnant. I don't know how long I will try.

I know people can be very critical thinking the parents may not be around when the children get to certain ages.

I really believe this is an individual decision. I wouldn't question anyone's intent on having or not having children.

[mj412]

41 is a far cry from 57 wafer not.

they were not her eggs and a donated sperm.

the legal implications alone are intense .

[Zshot]

IMO...

It depends on the person...

Will the parents be able to play with the kids in the park? Or, will they collect splinters from the bench because they are to tired to keep up.

Will the parents be willing to become a taxi service for all of there kids activities for at least 16 years?

When the parents are collecting Social Security, at what grade will the kids be in?

Are the parents willing to put off retirement till the kid finishes college?

The better question is: How old is too old to have a "child", "pre-teen", "teen", "young adult" and "college student".

Just because somebody "can" have a "baby" dosen't mean that they should.

I guess it's time for me to put on my flack vest?

[George Aar]

I dunno, I'm all for "you're as young as you feel" kinda sentiments, but she's bringing another party into this.

After a certain point isn't it just unfair to the child to have it? I mean, by the time this woman's child is old enough to be going to soccer games or little league, this mother is going to be spending an inordinate amount of time at the drugstore, the doctor's office, and in a rocking chair. Is that fair for the kid?

When a person is - without question - going to be slowing down considerably due to aging, the offspring is going to be running around and getting into all sorts of stuff. Is mom going to be able to cope?

I think it's tremendous selfish and uncaring to conceive at that late a date, for a mother or father.

[excathedra]

http://www.wnbc.com/news/3912577/detail.html

[rascal]

Wafer, 41 IS a far cry from 57, you just keep on trying girl! I had my last child at 39, and Mark was 45, (that puts us at 57 and 63 when our youngest turnes 18) and I feel that we are definatly much better parents than we were in our 20s and 30s with our older kiddoes.

My friend had her last one at 48, as a matter of fact she had had so many miscarrages, she figured that this too would end ...completely expecting to lose it....so she didn`t tell anyone till 6 weeks before the baby was due.

As far as the 57 yr old lady, personally, I think that she is nuts, (She undoubtedly will think so too when she starts trying to raise twins at any age)....but I look at my parents in their 70s, they are very healthy and active, up till last year my Dad was running in marathons, they have invited my teen down to Orlando to finish high school...they`d love to do the whole parenting gig....they have the energy and enthusiasm to do it very well indeed, I would say that they would have made excellent parents at any age.

I think that we have changed as a society, medical advances have got us staying younger and living longer....if this lady wants to do this, well, there are worse things than growing up with a single parent who adores you....

I won`t condemn her choice.

p.s. Chock Norris is 61, he and his wife have 3yr old twins....Sometimes we ar better parents when we are older.

[Zshot]

George is exactly right.

Children need care, attention, time and energy as they grow.

Of course some lazy parents might say, they have other children (brothers and sisters) to run, jump and play with the new addition to the family. In other words, they want someone else to to what they can't.

[Bramble]

WaferNot--I had my last at 38, and I did not feel too old. The pregnancy etc was healthy, no difficulties. We even considered trying again, but decided no due to finances. Wishing you the best!

57--that's alot different than early forties. I had a set of twins, and I can't imagine wanting a set now. They were adorable but high demand.

Funny--I had surgery about a month ago, and they freaked me out--I had to do a pregnancy test!

Of course, I had no help and no money when my kids were small(I was in TWI!) She can probably afford a housekeeper, a night nanny, laundry service etc. And for all we know she might have lots of family support--all those things do make a difference.

[Belle]

They interviewed this lady on the news this morning and she made a good point: Just because you have a child at 24, it doesn't guarantee that you're going to be around to see your kids grow up. That's no reason to not have a kid at 57.

I know 70 & 80 year olds who are healthier & have more energy than people in their 30's. I agree with the "young as you feel" camp. As long as someone has thought through and considered all the responsibility, time, energy, money, etc. involved with kids, I say go for it! She hadn't had menopause yet and I think she said her grandmother had a child at 53 years old, so it's not a foreign concept to her.

She has a swarm of family & friends willing and able to help her out as well. Diane Sawyer was quite impressed with the number of people (family and close friends) who are supporting this lady. I say more power to her!

I'm going to end up being in my late 30's - early 40's before I'm able to have my first child, so it's heartening to hear about people having children so late in life.

[mj412]

8

[mj412]

quote:

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Originally posted by mj412:

It is about the children and who is who?

these are not her eggs and a donated sperm.

some day these children may wonder what is up with who is who and will she be to old to remember? kidding but 20 and 77 is frightening I sure hope she has ALOT of money.

eggs get old . end of story. read up on it. these women for the most part do not use their own dna. and then the sperm donor.

ok that is the part im saying is kind of selfish should women wait and then just like purchase the pregnancy parts off a shelf if they think maybe a baby could be a new thrill.

this is a first time pregnancy which alone holds its own problems and upsets. my mother had children in her late and middle forties but it was a natural set of events. that makes a difference to the body that carries them . and we are fine she beat the odds on the downs and other issues. plenty do not. and the disabled child is left for the siblings to care for , or in a group home.

all those up in arms about abortion, what do you think happens to the babies they make in the tube and do not set well? yes they miscarry but is that really a miscarriage when it is done over and over again to get the right sex the right time for the birth etc on purpose?

these children she will raise and consider hers may want a different perspective someday on who is who in their life.

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in the 60's and seventies it was niffty novel idea for white folks from the subarbs to adopt Africa american children. bring them into their world and love them as their own children.

it was a bright idea and saved many alot of trouble of having their own in the decade of prggress for women and civil rights.

this kids did not do well although given every advatnage possible in life they often reported feeling lost and empty and without roots as adults. many sought drugs and criminal behaviour .

We as a society learned from this , and now every effort is made for a child to be raised by his own natural culture and race. I think lessons will be learned from this new idea as well.

[mj412]

[

[rascal]

Well, my father and his wife adopted a 6 year old girl when he was in Korea. She was damn glad to escape the poverty and orphanage.

She is now a happily married adult with her second child on the way....yeah there were bumps in the road, but she is damn apreciative that some one chose to take a chance and make the effort to adopt across cultural/ race lines....so I don`t think that your one shoe fits all mj.

[mj412]

Im bare foot.

Yes the increase in the number of out of country adoptions are a biproduct of this education and laws put into place concerning adoption in America. have money buy any country baby ya want, but in america it can be long difficult process with very strict rules, we are accountable .

Today we have very very good infertility treatments and adoptions is rarely the only answer, with test tube babies readily available and often now covered by insurance. if you have the money to adopt outside of this country then you have the resource to get the fertility available in todays medical procedures. So the trend has decreased alot naturaly.

[dmiller]

The up-side of her age (as Jay Leno pointed out), is that if she decides to breast feed, she can just leave the kid lying in her lap, and not have to lift it at all! :D-->

[mj412]

it truly is something.

She spent 60 years doing what she wanted in life so I do suppose she is ready to settle down and focus on parenting without to many distractions for sure.

My children went to school with some girls mom was in her forties and dad well he looked like he was at least in his mid sixties.

We had them over some, but it was kind of weird and Im an adult I wonder how children looked at it. they didnt "get" alot of what the children where doing , which may have been a good thing .

they seem like a nice family, the girls are grown now, and she is taking care of him I see her outside with her hubby walking sometimes. he looks like her father honestly. but love is love .

[johniam]

I think it depends on the person, but their individual motivation can't be legislated. This 57 yr old woman could be motivated by...a) a heart felt personal desire to give love to offspring...or...b) an egotistical desire to be thought of as a mom where acquiring a child to her is no different than picking out a dress or some other material object. Either one is possible and every thing in between. But so what!

When I think of China and how women are allowed to have 1 child and only 1 child and how if a woman is found to be pregnant with a 2nd child the state comes over to her house every day and takes 2 hours to explain the state's position and why she should get an abortion immediately and how most women over there give in and get the abortion...yeah, when I think of that, I say more power to this 57 yr old woman.

At least she is apparently willing to pay for this herself rather than farm it out to the taxpayers. If she's willing to pay 25K for this procedure then she can pay for services to her twins that she herself might not be able to do.

My mother was born in the stockyards neighborhood in Chicago. Her dad left her mom when she was 12. She ended up in STL on her 4th try with a foster home. My dad died when I was 9 after 32 plus years of marriage and I remember the determination my mom had to shake off the bitterness and get on with her life. Everybody has to make this choice! Your life wasn't determined by how your parents decided to bring you into the world. Those twins will have the same opportunity as everybody else to enjoy their lives or not regardless of which type of motivation mom had in getting them here. It's not the same thing as having a crack baby, is it?

[rascal]

My Dad didn`t buy a baby mj, there were many armed services personel stationed over in Korea... many friends of my Dad`s who`s hearts were moved by the abject poverty and stigma that the orphans grew up in....moved to adopt even when they had never previously considered it....little girls espescially, there is no future for them there, nobody wants them.

When my step sis was 5 yrs old...her father told her brother to take her into town n *lose* her...they did the same thing to her older sister a couple of years before....a police man found her crying....this is not an uncommon occurance, as only the sons have value over there.

My step sister was given a wonderfull life full of endless possibilities, and she in return was a wonderfull blessing, cherished by my Dad and his wife.....It has been a win win situation.

Don`t think you oughtta be slamming adoption whether it be in country or out, or cross racial or ethnic barriers mj....My Dad`s family as well as the many other service families that opened their hearts and homes to these destitue children around the world, are living proof of the joys and benefits to be had by both the adoptee and adopters.

[mj412]

no it is a wonder and a joy Im certain she is wise enough to have those types of circumstances covered.

Mom will most probably die before these children have a chance to have children esp. if they follow her lead. do you think they might want family for their children my own family five generations is priceless. also as grown up able to sperate and it does take through the twenties at least to fully realize self has anyone considered they may indeed wonder who their "real" parents may be biological ? She may or may not have this information for them many donors do it for the money without disclosure of this information.

if this increases in popularity I think these and other issues may indeed be very real some day. Rascal relax it isnt about you being rabid at me once again no one is slamming out of the country adoptions , they are what they are.

I agree johniam it takes all types of families to raise a free country, I loved it when my kids got old enough to notice every family is different yet able to contribute to the community in their own manner.

[excathedra]

quote:

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my own family five generations is priceless

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good for you

do you see how other people might feel, mj ?

maybe i'm being unfair and you answered it in your last post

i'm reading fast right now

love might be the bottom line in much of this

[mj412]

feel about what?

love is the bottom line in nearly everything much more than hate I believe.

[Nottawayfer]

MJ said:

quote:

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I think she is being selfish a single mom to boot.

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I don't know how you could say this. If her motivation is to love the children, then I wouldn't knock her one bit.

If you aren't a woman who has past her good childbearing years wihtout having babies, you can't possibly know what her heart felt like to not have children at a time when she really wanted to do it. If I had things to do over again, I would have gladly got myself knocked up out of wedlock to have a child at an earlier age. But being divorced at 31, beinging involved in a cult, and spending 5 years at hq waiting for my own little mog didn't allow my mind-set at that time to make that kind of decision. I was more worried about what other people thought. Now I don't give a .... what they think. I may still want to get pregnant at 50 if I don't before then.

I'm not taking the opposition of this idea personally, I just want other people to see the other side of the fence. Plus, I just don't like people passing judgment on other's actions when the actions aren't necessarily evil.

Edited November 16, 2004 by NottaWayfer

[excathedra]

quote:

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feel about what?

love is the bottom line in nearly everything much more than hate I believe.

---

feel about what ? don't be a silly girl, you know what i mean, don't you ? people feel differently than you, or are not "lucky" enough to have the 5 generation

and i don't understand what you said about love and hate

i am saying that people have a lot of love to offer and they may be different than you or i

you know ?

[mj412]

not really I do not read minds. Im far from being a silly girl.

every person is different and special and unigue excathedra.

I think every child deserves a loving family and a mom and dad if at all possible. it is important .

a stable family is the corner stone of our community and our country.

most single moms struggle alot I was one I know. to deprive a child of his other parent because your turning 60 is a tad selfish if you ask me.

strong leaders strong successful people come from strong successful people for the most part money and love is only part of the equation. the responsibility of parenting a child takes alot more than love alot more most parents love their children and the children still suffer needlessly out of their ignorance addictions or other problems they bring to the plate.

the decay of the family is showing wide and strong in America

Yes Im happy it isnt a crack mom , or another welfare case , but these kids will face some serious problems some day in wanting to understand why it had to be this way. I believe in love and I believe in strong family commintment.

Wafer not I have a sister that was never able to have children and they wanted them desperetly and another who had only one after 8 years of trying to have her husband die just two months later. Desperation is no reason to have a kid in life . Life is full of wonderful things I hope and will pray you get your child and if it helps a dear friend just had her first at 43 after several miscariages some very late term.

Im a gramma now Im thrilled to bits but if my children decide to never have children that is their choice it doesnt make them any less or more of a person to me at all. I never taught my kids they can get fullfilled from another person because I do not believe it is true . I believe happiness and true peace and self fullfillment comes from within. As you yourself have learned .

If your child is born handicapped and can never function or gets in an accident of some sort and is brain damaged will she/he still fit your needs in life? is this about you or the child wafer? I do pray you will get a child it is a riot and then the grands I can not imagine my life without it. But they are not my life or reason for living .

children are effected for a lifetime by the choices their parents have made and so many many times it is to late found out just how much the cost is.

Wafer not you sound like fifty would be a stretch for you this woman was 57 . Are they her children or was she the container that carried somone eles dna? sounds rough? what do you think these kids will deal with at 20 in a 77 year old face? it isnt evil but I will say selfish and she may pay some dues like I said I hope she has plenty of money to explain this . love is quite common at twenty remeber

how long it took you to find out it is all about what YOU think not others.