I'd like to echo excathedra's question, but ask it on my own terms:
How is it that certain sanctimonious, holier-and-heavier-than-thou "research" types, who cling for dear life to various "splinter groups" in a vain attempt to relive their glory daze, can hold Wierwille in such high esteem, when the man was a sociopathic megalomaniac, a sexual predator and abuser, a drunk, an adulterer...? and yet, even as I pose the question the answer becomes self-evident. It means living a contradiction, but it offers those paltry but essential compensations for which so many remain loyal to the mother cult.
I'd like to echo excathedra's question, but ask it on my own terms:
How is it that certain sanctimonious, holier-and-heavier-than-thou "research" types, who cling for dear life to various "splinter groups" in a vain attempt to relive their glory daze, can hold Wierwille in such high esteem, when the man was a sociopathic megalomaniac, a sexual predator and abuser, a drunk, an adulterer...? and yet, even as I pose the question the answer becomes self-evident. It means living a contradiction, but it offers those paltry but essential compensations for which so many remain loyal to the mother cult.
I have no idea how anyone can know these things about Wierwille and still hold the man dear. And I use the term "man" loosely.
It would be so easy for vp worshippers to say that he was a man, and he let us down, not God. Of course that is the truth. Then we would be blamed that we elevated vp higher than we should have. From the beginning we got involved in twi, vp was presented as almost infallible, that he and God were tight, that he was an apostle in his own time, that he was equivalent to the apostle Paul, and that he showed us the love of God like nobody else did. If we bought that hook, line, and sinker, it was a piece of cake from there to sucker us in to the rest of the BS. We were all vulnerable. Some were hurt and manipulated more than others, and that REALLY SUCKS!! I wish it were different.
We were scammed! We were used! We cannot let these arseholes who protect vp's "integrity" (if that's what you want to call it) convince us that we did everything of our own free will. When someone takes advantage of people in the guise that they are representing God, it is hard to see beyond it when you have been fed the foundation we were. It wasn't the Word. It wasn't God. It wasn't about love, although many of us tried our hardest to manifest that. It was admiration of MEN and protocol to leadership that we were taught.
I pray that God reaches in and heals the hurts as only He can. But don't let anyone let you think that the time it takes to heal your heart is too slow. That's between you and Him ONLY.
I pray that God reaches in and heals the hurts as only He can. But don't let anyone let you think that the time it takes to heal your heart is too slow. That's between you and Him ONLY.
That is certainly true. The important thing to remember is that all the while you are healing, God is still loving you and taking care of you every step along the way.
Maybe we elevated VP higher than we should have, but he knew it was happening, he allowed it to continue, and even encouraged it. After his death and the .fit hit the shan, I personally pointed that out to Craig Martindale and warned him against it, that this could not and should not continue.
I told Martindale that we do our people a huge disfavor by allowing them to believe in the infallibility of a human being, and outlined the many consequences of that belief, but chiefly: denial.
It was Craig's choice to continue the charade. He wanted everything VP had, and then some.
I couldn't stomach it. And learned later after leaving, how much worse the damage really was. These men left horrid unspeakable carnage in their wake and deserve to rot in hell.
quote: We were scammed! We were used! We cannot let these arseholes who protect vp's "integrity" (if that's what you want to call it) convince us that we did everything of our own free will.
Hmm. OK, there's 1500 registered members, and at least 1/3 of them probably post at least once a week. So of the 500 who post once a week, probably at LEAST 75% agree with the above quote and another 20% although they may reluctantly admit that they used their freedom of will to be in TWI, they presently have nothing good to say about VPW.
So that means that 5% (and that's definitely a high estimate) of us who "protect vp's integrity" are able to generate SO MUCH PRESSURE on GSC "public opinion" that those of you who agree with the quote are fighting for your lives?????? Reminds me of the Hall's Mentholiptus commercials where the pig people are in their brick house and the wolf boy is outside and when the wolf boy takes his Hall's then he can blow the brick house down. Not likely.
What's up with the birthday part of the bottom of the general forums page? Socks is 100 yrs old? Satori is 5? Methinks one of the moderators was dippin' in the eggnog.
We were scammed! We were used! We cannot let these arseholes who protect vp's "integrity" (if that's what you want to call it) convince us that we did everything of our own free will.
When someone takes advantage of people in the guise that they are representing God, it is hard to see beyond it when you have been fed the foundation we were. It wasn't the Word. It wasn't God. It wasn't about love, although many of us tried our hardest to manifest that. It was admiration of MEN and protocol to leadership that we were taught.
I know in the 15th Corps it was said many times and illustrated in a film clip. It was said that when "we were told to jump and not ask how high".
The film clip was a jet taking off from an aircraft carrier. Something happened to the jet and the pilot did not know there was something wrong with the jet. The pilot was told to eject and he did, then the jet blew up. The leadership of twi told us if the pilot had asked "why" he should eject he would have died.
The point of their (twi) story was. We were to follow and do whatever they(leadership) said without question and to KNOW it was from God.
Talk about opening a door for guilt trips when we either left or were kicked out. We had the seed planted in us that if we failed the leadership we failed God.
Forgive me if I was not clear, but I agree VP orchestrated the worship and in no way suggested VPW did not. I simply said he knew it was happening and allowed it to continue. I wholeheartedly agree with you. I was simply responding to Wayfernot's earlier post:
"It would be so easy for vp worshippers to say that he was a man, and he let us down, not God. Of course that is the truth. Then we would be blamed that we elevated vp higher than we should have. From the beginning we got involved in twi, vp was presented as almost infallible..."
VPW hurt people by taking on this air of infallibility and perpetuating it among them. We may have been deceived into attributing infallibility to this man, but that man KNEW EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS DOING.
Maybe we elevated VP higher than we should have, but he knew it was happening, he allowed it to continue, and even encouraged it. After his death and the .fit hit the shan, I personally pointed that out to Craig Martindale and warned him against it, that this could not and should not continue.
I told Martindale that we do our people a huge disfavor by allowing them to believe in the infallibility of a human being, and outlined the many consequences of that belief, but chiefly: denial.
It was Craig's choice to continue the charade. He wanted everything VP had, and then some.
I couldn't stomach it. And learned later after leaving, how much worse the damage really was. These men left horrid unspeakable carnage in their wake and deserve to rot in hell.
I think this deserves mentioning AGAIN. Lord! Our time in twi was about elevating men.
When I was a WOW, our 14th Corps family coordinator had a hard time being a leader. He was also the team coordinator of 4 WOW families in our town. He was a good guy, but he was kind of wimpy. The territory coordinator gave him a pep talk, and all of a sudden our WOW family had to stand for him every time he entered a room in our own damn house!!! His ego got stroked big time after he got used to being admired as a leader. He even had the same sexual frailties as he was a popular guy in the Corps and had a fling with my WOW sister. He even tried to start something with me in the guise of a back rub. When he started kissing my neck, I said I had enough and got up and walked out.
The fact the vpw encouraged his own elevation is something he will have to answer to God on IMHO. Even Rhoda W used to tell me he loved to be admired and that the hippie expansion of the ministry was a great time for him. Think about it. If you got in to twi before vp died, it was Dr. Wierwille this and Dr. Wierwille that. I heard it so much. People probably even heard it after he died. The big thing for a newbie at the ROA was to meet the one and only DR. WIERWILLE! It was like meeting Jesus Christ himself!
How about this? DR. WIERWILLE'S CORPS?? I was given the blessing of my territory coordinator to skip out on my commitment to be part of the 18th corps because he agreed that it was no longer DR. WIERWILLE'S CORPS! This was when Craig was trying to flop his way in the mud hole he and Geer created after POP was read.
Anything to be held good or of high honor was because it was sanctioned by DR. WIERWILLE! Tell me the ministry wasn't about him, and I'll say you are delusional.
It was not a massage - it was more oral than that.
WG and Rascal - Rascal I know how you feel, the people that were telling you GOD loved you were now saying things like you dissappointed God -- and why? To cover their own sin.
WG- I am not sure about the 7th corps person, it rings a dull bell. But in the 6th (?) corps I know my limb leader came and told us that the "girl got possessed and killed herself" later I heard she drank something with VP and in a fog he "got her" then she was so wigged out about it she began to "talk" and they wanted her to SHUT UP.
They kept after her how she had devil spirits and to shut up, the MOG had choosen her she should be happy and shut up. If I recall I think VP even called her... Then she killed herself.
I do not know who it was -- anyone know?
In the book "The people of the Lie" by Peck he goes into people who push you into things and their responsibility in the pushing. A young boy's 16 year old brother killed himself by a bullet to the brain. On this younger kid's 16th birthday they gave him the gun and said we thought you might like the gun your brother used... or something like that.
Then, Peck went into the whole awful side of the obvious suggestion these parents were giving their 2nd son. Now, I gotta tell you the things VP and his zombies did were more blantant and packed more punch then the things I read from other arenas.
The People of the Lie ummmmmm Some of the people in the Way for sure.
i'm trying to remember, dot.... how very strange to think we let a lot of these things just pass us by..... god i hope we WERE brainwashed ! [delete]
***
I know in the 15th Corps it was said many times and illustrated in a film clip. It was said that when "we were told to jump and not ask how high".
The film clip was a jet taking off from an aircraft carrier. Something happened to the jet and the pilot did not know there was something wrong with the jet. The pilot was told to eject and he did, then the jet blew up. The leadership of twi told us if the pilot had asked "why" he should eject he would have died.
The point of their (twi) story was. We were to follow and do whatever they(leadership) said without question and to KNOW it was from God.
Talk about opening a door for guilt trips when we either left or were kicked out. We had the seed planted in us that if we failed the leadership we failed God.
justloafing, that's about the best description of the way corps program i've seen in a long time. thanks
I know, that DAY! He was talking to a group of 9th and 11th corps girls, That one girl shared how she climbed a pole and had an orgasm. [snip] And we could not believe how all the girls were sitting and accepting what he just shared as "okay".
Your neighbor George? I am sorry, he sounded like a nice guy, I am sure your son is upset.
You know the limb leader I speak of right? The one who spoke of the suicide? IT was the female 3rd corps girl who told me, were you there? First, I thought it was Marsh____. It wasn't praise God. But she went through h-ll with the same Rev. Pimp I did.
are you talking about limb leader P M 's wife telling you ? sorry you know my memory.....
i know you remember the girl from my college who had to go to HQ to "get healed" after she had a nervous breakdown after "being with" veepee and "howard' on one of their hunting trips
thankfully she didn't commit suicide but her life for years and years after that was not what i would call a "life"
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satori001
I'd like to echo excathedra's question, but ask it on my own terms:
How is it that certain sanctimonious, holier-and-heavier-than-thou "research" types, who cling for dear life to various "splinter groups" in a vain attempt to relive their glory daze, can hold Wierwille in such high esteem, when the man was a sociopathic megalomaniac, a sexual predator and abuser, a drunk, an adulterer...? and yet, even as I pose the question the answer becomes self-evident. It means living a contradiction, but it offers those paltry but essential compensations for which so many remain loyal to the mother cult.
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Catcup
I have no idea how anyone can know these things about Wierwille and still hold the man dear. And I use the term "man" loosely.
I certainly don't.
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Nottawayfer
It would be so easy for vp worshippers to say that he was a man, and he let us down, not God. Of course that is the truth. Then we would be blamed that we elevated vp higher than we should have. From the beginning we got involved in twi, vp was presented as almost infallible, that he and God were tight, that he was an apostle in his own time, that he was equivalent to the apostle Paul, and that he showed us the love of God like nobody else did. If we bought that hook, line, and sinker, it was a piece of cake from there to sucker us in to the rest of the BS. We were all vulnerable. Some were hurt and manipulated more than others, and that REALLY SUCKS!! I wish it were different.
We were scammed! We were used! We cannot let these arseholes who protect vp's "integrity" (if that's what you want to call it) convince us that we did everything of our own free will. When someone takes advantage of people in the guise that they are representing God, it is hard to see beyond it when you have been fed the foundation we were. It wasn't the Word. It wasn't God. It wasn't about love, although many of us tried our hardest to manifest that. It was admiration of MEN and protocol to leadership that we were taught.
I pray that God reaches in and heals the hurts as only He can. But don't let anyone let you think that the time it takes to heal your heart is too slow. That's between you and Him ONLY.
Love you all.
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ToadFriend
Wayfer Not said:
I pray that God reaches in and heals the hurts as only He can. But don't let anyone let you think that the time it takes to heal your heart is too slow. That's between you and Him ONLY.
That is certainly true. The important thing to remember is that all the while you are healing, God is still loving you and taking care of you every step along the way.
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Catcup
Maybe we elevated VP higher than we should have, but he knew it was happening, he allowed it to continue, and even encouraged it. After his death and the .fit hit the shan, I personally pointed that out to Craig Martindale and warned him against it, that this could not and should not continue.
I told Martindale that we do our people a huge disfavor by allowing them to believe in the infallibility of a human being, and outlined the many consequences of that belief, but chiefly: denial.
It was Craig's choice to continue the charade. He wanted everything VP had, and then some.
I couldn't stomach it. And learned later after leaving, how much worse the damage really was. These men left horrid unspeakable carnage in their wake and deserve to rot in hell.
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WordWolf
Catcup:
"Maybe we elevated VP higher than we should have, but he knew it was happening, he allowed it to continue, and even encouraged it."
========
I disagree.
You're suggesting it wasn't vpw's idea the ENTIRE TIME.
He PLANNED it,
he ORCHESTRATED it,
and people FELL for it.
vpw erased his sources and claimed his special connection to God
was the source for all his insight,
and not the use of a good xerox machine.
vpw called himself "THE Teacher" and expected special treatment
and people got chewed out when he didn't get it.
He supposedly had death threats and bodyguards,
a plane, and had "Hail to the Chief" played for himself.
He put forth that when he "suggested" something,
it was an "order".
And that's just off the top of my head.
This just didn't sneak up one day from the ranks.
vpw orchestrated it from Day 1.
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Tom Strange
Just wanted to make sure none of you missed that...
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dmiller
Well --- HERE it is, if you want to resurrect it. :)
(all 31 pages of it!!) :blink:
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johniam
quote: We were scammed! We were used! We cannot let these arseholes who protect vp's "integrity" (if that's what you want to call it) convince us that we did everything of our own free will.
Hmm. OK, there's 1500 registered members, and at least 1/3 of them probably post at least once a week. So of the 500 who post once a week, probably at LEAST 75% agree with the above quote and another 20% although they may reluctantly admit that they used their freedom of will to be in TWI, they presently have nothing good to say about VPW.
So that means that 5% (and that's definitely a high estimate) of us who "protect vp's integrity" are able to generate SO MUCH PRESSURE on GSC "public opinion" that those of you who agree with the quote are fighting for your lives?????? Reminds me of the Hall's Mentholiptus commercials where the pig people are in their brick house and the wolf boy is outside and when the wolf boy takes his Hall's then he can blow the brick house down. Not likely.
What's up with the birthday part of the bottom of the general forums page? Socks is 100 yrs old? Satori is 5? Methinks one of the moderators was dippin' in the eggnog.
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WordWolf
Lest we lose the context of that comment....
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justloafing
I know in the 15th Corps it was said many times and illustrated in a film clip. It was said that when "we were told to jump and not ask how high".
The film clip was a jet taking off from an aircraft carrier. Something happened to the jet and the pilot did not know there was something wrong with the jet. The pilot was told to eject and he did, then the jet blew up. The leadership of twi told us if the pilot had asked "why" he should eject he would have died.
The point of their (twi) story was. We were to follow and do whatever they(leadership) said without question and to KNOW it was from God.
Talk about opening a door for guilt trips when we either left or were kicked out. We had the seed planted in us that if we failed the leadership we failed God.
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Catcup
Wolfie
Forgive me if I was not clear, but I agree VP orchestrated the worship and in no way suggested VPW did not. I simply said he knew it was happening and allowed it to continue. I wholeheartedly agree with you. I was simply responding to Wayfernot's earlier post:
"It would be so easy for vp worshippers to say that he was a man, and he let us down, not God. Of course that is the truth. Then we would be blamed that we elevated vp higher than we should have. From the beginning we got involved in twi, vp was presented as almost infallible..."
VPW hurt people by taking on this air of infallibility and perpetuating it among them. We may have been deceived into attributing infallibility to this man, but that man KNEW EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS DOING.
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Nottawayfer
I think this deserves mentioning AGAIN. Lord! Our time in twi was about elevating men.
When I was a WOW, our 14th Corps family coordinator had a hard time being a leader. He was also the team coordinator of 4 WOW families in our town. He was a good guy, but he was kind of wimpy. The territory coordinator gave him a pep talk, and all of a sudden our WOW family had to stand for him every time he entered a room in our own damn house!!! His ego got stroked big time after he got used to being admired as a leader. He even had the same sexual frailties as he was a popular guy in the Corps and had a fling with my WOW sister. He even tried to start something with me in the guise of a back rub. When he started kissing my neck, I said I had enough and got up and walked out.
The fact the vpw encouraged his own elevation is something he will have to answer to God on IMHO. Even Rhoda W used to tell me he loved to be admired and that the hippie expansion of the ministry was a great time for him. Think about it. If you got in to twi before vp died, it was Dr. Wierwille this and Dr. Wierwille that. I heard it so much. People probably even heard it after he died. The big thing for a newbie at the ROA was to meet the one and only DR. WIERWILLE! It was like meeting Jesus Christ himself!
How about this? DR. WIERWILLE'S CORPS?? I was given the blessing of my territory coordinator to skip out on my commitment to be part of the 18th corps because he agreed that it was no longer DR. WIERWILLE'S CORPS! This was when Craig was trying to flop his way in the mud hole he and Geer created after POP was read.
Anything to be held good or of high honor was because it was sanctioned by DR. WIERWILLE! Tell me the ministry wasn't about him, and I'll say you are delusional.
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Dot Matrix
Ex
It was not a massage - it was more oral than that.
WG and Rascal - Rascal I know how you feel, the people that were telling you GOD loved you were now saying things like you dissappointed God -- and why? To cover their own sin.
WG- I am not sure about the 7th corps person, it rings a dull bell. But in the 6th (?) corps I know my limb leader came and told us that the "girl got possessed and killed herself" later I heard she drank something with VP and in a fog he "got her" then she was so wigged out about it she began to "talk" and they wanted her to SHUT UP.
They kept after her how she had devil spirits and to shut up, the MOG had choosen her she should be happy and shut up. If I recall I think VP even called her... Then she killed herself.
I do not know who it was -- anyone know?
In the book "The people of the Lie" by Peck he goes into people who push you into things and their responsibility in the pushing. A young boy's 16 year old brother killed himself by a bullet to the brain. On this younger kid's 16th birthday they gave him the gun and said we thought you might like the gun your brother used... or something like that.
Then, Peck went into the whole awful side of the obvious suggestion these parents were giving their 2nd son. Now, I gotta tell you the things VP and his zombies did were more blantant and packed more punch then the things I read from other arenas.
The People of the Lie ummmmmm Some of the people in the Way for sure.
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excathedra
i'm trying to remember, dot.... how very strange to think we let a lot of these things just pass us by..... god i hope we WERE brainwashed ! [delete]
***
justloafing, that's about the best description of the way corps program i've seen in a long time. thanks
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Dot Matrix
I know, that DAY! He was talking to a group of 9th and 11th corps girls, That one girl shared how she climbed a pole and had an orgasm. [snip] And we could not believe how all the girls were sitting and accepting what he just shared as "okay".
[cut]
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excathedra
[edit]
i forget the teaching point (gosh what a pun) but i know he said he had one
we've been through a lot, haven't we ?
sick mother
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Dot Matrix
That was what he said.
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excathedra
makes me sad all over again
hey today is george's birthday. he would have been 78
**
when my uncle did his thing, he said it was to "teach" or "help" my sister and me
then wierwille said the same thing
isn't that strange ?
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Dot Matrix
He was always telling girls "to stay sweet".
He asked me once what I did to stay sweet, I was unclear. Then, he says to me, "do you masterbate? Or what do you do to stay sweet?"
I don't recall if I answered I think I was just in shock thinking, "What the f?"
He asked my sister the same thing.
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excathedra
that term "stay sweet" is enough to make me gag a million times over
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Dot Matrix
Your neighbor George? I am sorry, he sounded like a nice guy, I am sure your son is upset.
You know the limb leader I speak of right? The one who spoke of the suicide? IT was the female 3rd corps girl who told me, were you there? First, I thought it was Marsh____. It wasn't praise God. But she went through h-ll with the same Rev. Pimp I did.
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excathedra
no my father
now i'll go read your post
are you talking about limb leader P M 's wife telling you ? sorry you know my memory.....
i know you remember the girl from my college who had to go to HQ to "get healed" after she had a nervous breakdown after "being with" veepee and "howard' on one of their hunting trips
thankfully she didn't commit suicide but her life for years and years after that was not what i would call a "life"
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Dot Matrix
[delete]
Anyway, my heart goes out to all those people who were having breakdowns and suicides. It is horrible.
[delete]
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