A girl [delete] told a story at twig that night. She said Uncle Harry grabbed her and french kissed her with a big sloppy one.
I was grossed out and alarmed and the Limb leaders wife kept saying, "He just wanting her to feel like a woman."
I said, "how is an old man frenching her making the girl feel like a woman?" It would make me feel like mouth wash.
There was this whole hub bub over Harry's intentions being pure and honorable and nobody addressed how damm inappropriate it was or how this poor young girl felt.
Cover-up.
That may have been my first clue.
Top of the world
Those that left were taken out of pictures and films also.
I recall the tennis player's pic being removed when she left.
....sooooo good old uncle harry just wanted to bless HER....he simply wanted HER to feel like a woman.....it`s all HER fault that she wasn`t mature enough to accept the blessing that a man of God so generously bestowed...Bless his poor misunderstood heart .... shame on that girl for thinking evil of a man so incredibly generous :( ick ick ICK ........
I see it all so clearly now ....what is WRONG with us?
Those that left were taken out of pictures and films also.
I recall the tennis player's pic being removed when she left.
Ha Dot
You would think someone would have figured out not to splash these people across 100,000 PFAL brochures until they knew that they were going to be around long enough for the ink to dry.
Then again it was our money they were wasting so no big deal to them I suppose.....
....sooooo good old uncle harry just wanted to bless HER....he simply wanted HER to feel like a woman.....it`s all HER fault that she wasn`t mature enough to accept the blessing that a man of God so generously bestowed...Bless his poor misunderstood heart .... shame on that girl for thinking evil of a man so incredibly generous :( ick ick ICK ........
I see it all so clearly now ....what is WRONG with us?
What the fug was wrong with these old men to believe they were GOD'S GIFT gift to teach us how to FEEL LIKE A WOMAN??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Catcup.....I do not think that they believed this....I think that they were classic predators.....always blaming the victim...always making them feel like it was somehow their fault.
This was just cover up schpiel in my mind......they were dark evil people :(
quote: These people betrayed us ALL...even if we weren`t directly assaulted personally....even though we persanally were not driven to the point of suicide.....maybe not broken beyond repair.....twi leaders were DOING this to OUR innocent brothers and sisters unbeknownst to us with OUR support and living off of OUR contributions...their fresh new recruits supplied by OUR outreach and undershepherding.....we unknowingly led the victims to the slaughter
Their appearance at legitimacy and spiritual Godliness was provided entirely by OUR bible teachings OUR appearance of good character.....OUR integrety....
They hijacked peoples lives and even peoples ministries .... people who simply wanted to make a difference for God in this world.....and maliciously decieved them into promoting and supporting a very evil harmfull group...
They have betrayed EACH and every one ofUS...you and me.....anyone who ever presented scriptures to people desiring to help.....any of us who participated in or enrolled people in classes promising them all the answeres to life and Godliness.....anyone who ever invited people to fellowships or twi functions in good faith..... or ever supported twi financially....we did so under the belief that we were benefitting God and people.....we unkowingly provided the perfect camolflauge with our youthfull innocence for evil to reign unchecked.
You're doing it again. You're telling everybody how to think, what to feel, and what they were exposed to. It's like you're trying to upstage everybody who gave an eyewitness account. It's like you're trying to outdo the impact of those testimonies. You really don't need to do that; it just waters down the impact. Leave it alone. Let God decide who got betrayed, or who got answers to life and godliness. YOU do not decide that for ME!
quote: I dearly hope that there is to be a reckoning someday....I hope that there really IS a God and that there will be justice someday....
You HOPE there is a God??????? Excuse me but aren't you the same poster who, with authority, constantly refers to Galatians 5 about who is of the spirit and who isn't? Easy come easy go, huh?
Of course there will be a reckoning some day. Some now reject the VP teaching that if you're born again you're going to heaven and all hell can't stop you. But even if what he taught is true, aren't we supposed to get rewarded for our Christian service? So if somebody HINDERS your ability to serve, whether by abuse or negligence, shouldn't that person get penalized? There's a God, all right, and His ways really ARE higher than the world's ways. Man's justice is fraught with error, but God's isn't.
quote: I hope to HELL that we were taught in twi was wrong and that these people....these wolves ...false prophets are not going to slide by in the afterlife due to technicalities.
Like I said, let God worry about that. You'll be a lot more peaceful.
You're doing it again. You're telling everybody how to think, what to feel, and what they were exposed to. It's like you're trying to upstage everybody who gave an eyewitness account. It's like you're trying to outdo the impact of those testimonies. You really don't need to do that; it just waters down the impact. Leave it alone. Let God decide who got betrayed, or who got answers to life and godliness. YOU do not decide that for ME!
Sure took you long enough. That was almost 24 hours from the start
of a discussion of vile activity on the part of vpw and ha and lcm,
and the victims who suffered thru their predations,
before you thundered in to take the emphasis off the evil
premeditated actions of vpw and ha and lcm.
Ok, as to your comments..
You are able to think on your own and form your own opinion.
If you honestly want to take the emphasis off the premeditations,
the preparations vpw made, the plans to victimize the women whom
they carefully cultivated the trust of, hey, you are free to do so.
No one challenged your abilities to do so.
Neither did they claim you were or were not exposed to anything-
they made the OPPOSITE point, actually.
They didn't contradict the eyewitness accounts-they commented
on them. Such horrific events in the lives of people are WORTH
a little emotion and comment, most of us would agree.
They took nothing away from the accounts.
Making this about those who commented, however,
cheapens the accounts-as if it's not about the ruined lives
being rebuild after vpw, ha and lcm and others set aside
to treat God's wonderful children as disposable objects,
no more than a kleenex.
As you demonstrated, YOU decide for yourself what offends
you. That discussion of the offenses offends you when the
offenses do NOT strikes me as unusual, but it IS
your choice.
You HOPE there is a God??????? Excuse me but aren't you the same poster who, with authority, constantly refers to Galatians 5 about who is of the spirit and who isn't? Easy come easy go, huh?
Of course there will be a reckoning some day. Some now reject the VP teaching that if you're born again you're going to heaven and all hell can't stop you. But even if what he taught is true, aren't we supposed to get rewarded for our Christian service? So if somebody HINDERS your ability to serve, whether by abuse or negligence, shouldn't that person get penalized? There's a God, all right, and His ways really ARE higher than the world's ways. Man's justice is fraught with error, but God's isn't.
Like I said, let God worry about that. You'll be a lot more peaceful.
I just got back from a funeral.
During the entire proceedings, there were a number of discussions.
There were plenty of "talking-points" where I could have used
the matters discussed as a "springboard" to educate the attendees
as to the truth of Scripture concerning different things.
Having escaped both the physical and mental constructs of twi,
I did not do so.
In doing so, I would have felt like I demonstrated righteousness.
After all, I'm supposed to "expound the Scriptures more perfectly"
when I encounter error.
I chose to let the "opportunities" pass.
Was that because I'm a poor Christian.
(If so, I'll let God judge that.)
I made the conclusion that God would be better served if I
didn't treat His people like machines,
and instead treated them like people-
people that can suffer and hurt, people who can feel
pain and hesitations, people who bleed and breathe and
have mucus in their noses, people who, in short,
are human, imperfect, and nevertheless beloved of God.
I elected to allow people to feel their pain as normal,
and allow them to process it in ways that might have
been mathematically improved upon,
but were sufficient for the moment and WORKED.
Now then,
what did that have to do with this thread?
Simply this:
We're discussing suffering and victims.
There's tense emotions here.
When given the opportunity to mark off a checklist
on posts-
"you could have said this better", etc-
I elect to leave them alone.
These are humans, not machines, and the bigger
issues are of importance.
Now, then,
you can, personally, choose to consider their posts
inadequate or lacking in your own mind.
You can even choose to say so (and you did.)
However,
I'd recommend considering the net effect.
Did you minister grace to the hearers?
Have they grown in knowledge?
Or have you just demonstrated that hearts and lives
are incidental to you when there's the letter of the
Their appearance at legitimacy and spiritual Godliness was provided entirely by OUR bible teachings OUR appearance of good character.....OUR integrety....
John -- Thank you for that.
I had forgotten that it was our integrity that gave them credence.
What's interesting about a predator is, they usually have what is considered a "personal myth" which they use to justify their own behavior.
I believe for these men, they felt God had called them to do it, that they had a God-given right to our bodies: VPW's self-proclaimed role as "The Teacher" encompassed teaching all areas of life, including your sexuality. It was part of his personal myth.
I'm not saying God called them to do it, I'm saying that's quite probably the sick and bizarre reasoning VP used to justify his actions. The personal myth is part of the psychological disorder of sexual predation, along with a constellation of other related aspects.
What's interesting about a predator is, they usually have what is considered a "personal myth" which they use to justify their own behavior.
I believe for these men, they felt God had called them to do it.
Good point. The *predators* I have met in my life all had that *personal myth* that empowered them to pull the crap they did over me, and anyone else that happened into the path they were taking.
And I am speaking of the non-religious, as well as the religious ones.
quote: What would most people say when seeing your post?
Is that the message you MEANT to convey?
Yep! Consider 1 Thes. 4:13-18. It clearly says to comfort one another with THESE words, yet many church Christians deliberately reject THOSE words in favor of "he/she's in a better place" or "he/she's up there with Jesus". If the exact words in that scripture don't comfort them, then it's THEIR FAULT!!!!! It's not just about the letter of the law WW.
This "funeral" has been going on for 6 years.
quote: I made the conclusion that God would be better served if I
didn't treat His people like machines,
You don't think that endless suffering makes people into "pain machines"?
quote: elected to allow people to feel their pain as normal,
and allow them to process it in ways that might have
been mathematically improved upon,
but were sufficient for the moment and WORKED.
SIX YEARS!!! That is NOT "feeling pain as normal"!
I don`t know what *normal* is.....but I certainly don`t understand NOT being deeply offended and disgusted by these accounts here <_<
In back tracking, I don`t really see any difference in my posts and those of other people offended by these predators .......but somehow I seem to consistantly draw your fire....some times to the point of derailing some really good threads....
I will refrain from further comments to you about your feelings about me.....because this thread simply isn`t about us.....feel free to pm me if you want to continue and I will attempt to address your concerns about my spirituality and well being there where it is more appropriate.
I guess that you are right catcup....they really did seem to believe what they were selling.
But I wonder....if they believed it....if they believed that they were doing God`s will.....why did they so savage the lives and reputations of those that dissapointed them?
Why did they try to hurt people to the fullest extention of their power and influence?
I do not understand how they could figure that this would be a Godly or beneficial thing.
It takes something broken on the inside to want to hurt people like that....imo
I guess that you are right catcup....they really did seem to believe what they were selling.
But I wonder....if they believed it....if they believed that they were doing God`s will.....why did they so savage the lives and reputations of those that dissapointed them?
Why did they try to hurt people to the fullest extention of their power and influence?
I do not understand how they could figure that this would be a Godly or beneficial thing.
It takes something broken on the inside to want to hurt people like that....imo
When narcissism is blended into the toxic mix of what these men were about, you have a person who does not have a working conscience as you and I understand conscience. And without a conscience, they do not care who or how they hurt in order to elevate and please themselves.
You find it difficult to understand Rascal, because you've got one. A conscience, that is. Normal folks find it hard to understand, because the behavior is so far outside of what one would expect and the way a normal person thinks. And yes, there had to be something broken on the inside. Several things. Very, very broken.
That being said, it does not excuse what they did.
If you want to find out more about sexual predation and narcissism, I would recommend some APA journals if you are into deep reading. The on line journal site is http://www.apa.org/journals/homepage.html
However, you could google it, or check out an on-line encyclopedia like Wikipedia. But in my own personal observations I would think LCM and VPW were narcissistic in addition to other problems.
When narcissism is blended into the toxic mix of what these men were about, you have a person who does not have a working conscience as you and I understand conscience. And without a conscience, they do not care who or how they hurt in order to elevate and please themselves.
You find it difficult to understand Rascal, because you've got one. A conscience, that is. Normal folks find it hard to understand, because the behavior is so far outside of what one would expect and the way a normal person thinks. And yes, there had to be something broken on the inside. Several things. Very, very broken.
That being said, it does not excuse what they did.
It seems to me that narcissism is the ultimate end of the theology they taught (and apparently believed). If you take a fresh look at the Word-Faith movement started by Kenyon, with its idolatry of self, and take it to the ridiculous, you end up with the theology promoted by TWI. It's simply a faulty theology based on the self rather than on God (IIRC, we were given that ridiculous 'Christians Should Be Prosperous' book as part of the piffle class...and IIRC, didn't the piffle class itself start up with wierwolf bemoaning the lack of material abundance of Christians, using John 10:10 to justify a position that Christ came to give us abundance in temporal things?)
The point is that, while hearing the degree of the abuse is sickening and shocking, the fact that there was abuse (but omg not to that degree) is understandable if you look at the theology behind the organization.
IMO, to many, they were looking for Jesus and in the midst of hell God looked on their searching hearts and gave them the loving “good Way” that I was also a part. It was a time when we did function in a branch as one body and we were there for one another. I credit God for the love he let my little heart see. But the closer I got to HQS the more I saw the love was missing. Weird. So, back in the day when Joe G-arini, Eddie F-sher and others prayed for people and prayers were answered – they were great times. Yet, unbeknownst to me, trouble was brewing the whole time I sang from the blue book.
Imagine the shock, of going from a loving area into the heart of the ministry (HQS) and finding it to be dark, cold, and self-serving. It was shocking. Frankly, if someone told me of these “things” I would not have considered them to be truthful. But after years and years of people popping up all over with similar stories, I would have to be numb not to conclude that God was trying to set-me free from the WAY ministry and some how in that freedom get to know God better. What I had in the beginning of the Way was sweet. But now that I have been able to properly separate GOD from people who did dastardly deeds in his name, life is sweeter. The voice of God still whispers to me like pure water on a hot day and I have answers to prayer.
In April 2005, long after I saw VP for what he was, after I continued to seek a Lord of love, God spoke to my heart and told me a man with whom I was once in love was sick and I may want to write him. I hemmed a bit as I thought what do I say? But I wrote him and told him I had a feeling he was sick and had cancer. I wrote him about “us” and it was cathartic for me and freeing for him. My point? God still communicates with me -- long after The Way. God loves us. And to let go of “the fableized good legend of VP” did not take God from me, but opened my eyes and my heart for even more. Calling a spade a spade is not a bad thing. God still works in my life. This is not a criticism nor an attack, just conversation.
It seems to me, Jon- is saying pls don’t say things like we were all hurt, as he was not affected, in his manner of thinking. Rascal is speaking to those still sitting on the sidelines wondering what happened.
Her audience is wide, but does not address the few people who want to believe all was well with The Way because they were only touched by good things. Praise God Jon, that you were protected like that, I do not know why I wasn’t. I did not want to see VP naked or have him ask me things that I found insulting. It comes up again & again, in people trying to “put things together” and it does help them. This is not about you Jon, but more about the people who are still blown away by a group that could sing about the love of Jesus and display the selfish, harmful ways that Jesus was against.
I do not speak to have people be kind to me and say, “I am sorry for your pain.” I am in love with God and can call the devil the devil and his works his works and still love God. I am here for the pain that still encases others, and if visiting the history of that which has happened can do that, then I shall
I am not here for those who think it was sweet and no trouble lay a brew, I am here for the person who lost everything, or who is confused or guilty over perhaps nothing that is their fault, I am here for that guy and his sister, or his mother, or his son and daughter.
I believe that is the person to whom Rascal is speaking.
But the bigger point being made here, is deliverance to people who have wondered about Rochelle and others and what happened in a Bible Ministry to have suicides. I think this conversation/thread has answered some haunting questions. So, it is not about you said that in a way that offends me, we can be bigger, see God heal people from the pain of loss. See them find some understanding, isn't that the loving thing to do? Instead of finding away to make all this healing about "offending" you. Whomever "you" may be.
Dot that was fabulous and heart felt. Thank you and ex for having the courage to share a little bit of what happened to you. I know it isn't easy, but you never know who you may be helping in telling your story.
dot matrix saw your posts and others soooo, much pain u seem like a kind human being. justice where is the justice - is God dead??? is his son coming back??? ... alot of pain here shared; dot thanxs for posts Ive been on this earth and ive seen alot mean and cruel things in various countries - wellll lets just say i am weeeelll traveled, i have never heard nor seen such evil,dark,treacherous,sinister,guile,malice,cover ups, such as these accounts. Dot I wish u the very best. U are a true warrior... you can chew dirt with me anytime. I wont post that much here anymore, I am some one who is just trying to find answers. I will continue to view the threads and read the posts.
What's interesting about a predator is, they usually have what is considered a "personal myth" which they use to justify their own behavior.
I believe for these men, they felt God had called them to do it, that they had a God-given right to our bodies: VPW's self-proclaimed role as "The Teacher" encompassed teaching all areas of life, including your sexuality. It was part of his personal myth.
I'm not saying God called them to do it, I'm saying that's quite probably the sick and bizarre reasoning VP used to justify his actions. The personal myth is part of the psychological disorder of sexual predation, along with a constellation of other related aspects.
I would like to add something here. I keep thinking about the phrase, "Misery loves company." I think that saying could be extended to guilt, shame, avarice and any other evil. I truly believe that this predatorial behavior was systematically spread because it is very hard to call someone on the carpet if you are guilty of the same thing. Somewhere along the line someone was the first to witness vpw in his depravity. Doesn't it make sense that rather than try to convince that person that it was "just a one time thing." It was much easier to start some lie and get them involved in the same sin? Basically, I see how predators could have been raised up. Ordain them, give them houses, get them in paid positions where their liveliehoods and that of their families were dependant on their staying in the "good ole boys" club - and you have quite a system of sick and depraved error.
Like the sewer lines that run under our streets.... that is how I describe all the wrongs I have read here.
And jon - I hvae said more than once that twi didn't affect me the same as many of those who have posted here. That doesn't mean that it didn't happen, or that it isn't happening still. I knew a woman whose ordained husband was cheating on her. She nearly suffered a nervous breakdown because of the doubt that man instilled on her. And while he wasn't taking care of business at home he was wrecking believer's lives throughout the city- I became one of those casualities because I could have called him on the carpet - so he silenced me by declaring me as having left God and His word when in truth I had only left this man's group that he called a ministry. He even ORDAINED a woman that he had had an affair with because she demanded it in order to keep her silence! Now this woman goes around and announces that she is a WOG when all she is is a w#ore that turned the right trick at the right time.
People look at Auschwitz and reminisce over the wrongs done. They look at Pearl Harbor. Isn't it necessary to look at the past in order to keep from repeating the same mistakes in the future? ( I know there is a more eloquent quote - but I paraphased it anyway.)
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WhiteDove
Truer words have not been spoken. Too bad when it comes to major church denominations the sickness for some reason does not go to the whole core.
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Dot Matrix
A girl [delete] told a story at twig that night. She said Uncle Harry grabbed her and french kissed her with a big sloppy one.
I was grossed out and alarmed and the Limb leaders wife kept saying, "He just wanting her to feel like a woman."
I said, "how is an old man frenching her making the girl feel like a woman?" It would make me feel like mouth wash.
There was this whole hub bub over Harry's intentions being pure and honorable and nobody addressed how damm inappropriate it was or how this poor young girl felt.
Cover-up.
That may have been my first clue.
Top of the world
Those that left were taken out of pictures and films also.
I recall the tennis player's pic being removed when she left.
I guess all our research papers are also gone.
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rascal
....sooooo good old uncle harry just wanted to bless HER....he simply wanted HER to feel like a woman.....it`s all HER fault that she wasn`t mature enough to accept the blessing that a man of God so generously bestowed...Bless his poor misunderstood heart .... shame on that girl for thinking evil of a man so incredibly generous :( ick ick ICK ........
I see it all so clearly now ....what is WRONG with us?
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WhiteDove
Ha Dot
You would think someone would have figured out not to splash these people across 100,000 PFAL brochures until they knew that they were going to be around long enough for the ink to dry.
Then again it was our money they were wasting so no big deal to them I suppose.....
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bliss
If all innies knew and believed this, the Way would have nobody left.....
I stayed 5 years after the s@#t hit the fan in 2000, all because I (we) were willing to forgive the "one time affair" and move on.
We used to compare LCM's sin with David and Bathsheeba............................
How wrong we were!
David, when confronted, was sorrowful and wanted forgiveness.....and he still payed dearly for it!
Doc vic, LCM..........did more than just "get tempted" one time.
They were predators. Liars, Cheats, swindlers, and even molesters!
Never asked for forgiveness.
If it wasn't for the abuse stories on here, and the truth from the lawsuits on record, I'd still be in.
Unhappy and bored, but probably still there.
Thank God for my inquisitive mind..............
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Catcup
What the fug was wrong with these old men to believe they were GOD'S GIFT gift to teach us how to FEEL LIKE A WOMAN??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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rascal
Catcup.....I do not think that they believed this....I think that they were classic predators.....always blaming the victim...always making them feel like it was somehow their fault.
This was just cover up schpiel in my mind......they were dark evil people :(
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dmiller
AMEN!!
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johniam
quote: These people betrayed us ALL...even if we weren`t directly assaulted personally....even though we persanally were not driven to the point of suicide.....maybe not broken beyond repair.....twi leaders were DOING this to OUR innocent brothers and sisters unbeknownst to us with OUR support and living off of OUR contributions...their fresh new recruits supplied by OUR outreach and undershepherding.....we unknowingly led the victims to the slaughter
Their appearance at legitimacy and spiritual Godliness was provided entirely by OUR bible teachings OUR appearance of good character.....OUR integrety....
They hijacked peoples lives and even peoples ministries .... people who simply wanted to make a difference for God in this world.....and maliciously decieved them into promoting and supporting a very evil harmfull group...
They have betrayed EACH and every one ofUS...you and me.....anyone who ever presented scriptures to people desiring to help.....any of us who participated in or enrolled people in classes promising them all the answeres to life and Godliness.....anyone who ever invited people to fellowships or twi functions in good faith..... or ever supported twi financially....we did so under the belief that we were benefitting God and people.....we unkowingly provided the perfect camolflauge with our youthfull innocence for evil to reign unchecked.
You're doing it again. You're telling everybody how to think, what to feel, and what they were exposed to. It's like you're trying to upstage everybody who gave an eyewitness account. It's like you're trying to outdo the impact of those testimonies. You really don't need to do that; it just waters down the impact. Leave it alone. Let God decide who got betrayed, or who got answers to life and godliness. YOU do not decide that for ME!
quote: I dearly hope that there is to be a reckoning someday....I hope that there really IS a God and that there will be justice someday....
You HOPE there is a God??????? Excuse me but aren't you the same poster who, with authority, constantly refers to Galatians 5 about who is of the spirit and who isn't? Easy come easy go, huh?
Of course there will be a reckoning some day. Some now reject the VP teaching that if you're born again you're going to heaven and all hell can't stop you. But even if what he taught is true, aren't we supposed to get rewarded for our Christian service? So if somebody HINDERS your ability to serve, whether by abuse or negligence, shouldn't that person get penalized? There's a God, all right, and His ways really ARE higher than the world's ways. Man's justice is fraught with error, but God's isn't.
quote: I hope to HELL that we were taught in twi was wrong and that these people....these wolves ...false prophets are not going to slide by in the afterlife due to technicalities.
Like I said, let God worry about that. You'll be a lot more peaceful.
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WordWolf
Sure took you long enough. That was almost 24 hours from the start
of a discussion of vile activity on the part of vpw and ha and lcm,
and the victims who suffered thru their predations,
before you thundered in to take the emphasis off the evil
premeditated actions of vpw and ha and lcm.
Ok, as to your comments..
You are able to think on your own and form your own opinion.
If you honestly want to take the emphasis off the premeditations,
the preparations vpw made, the plans to victimize the women whom
they carefully cultivated the trust of, hey, you are free to do so.
No one challenged your abilities to do so.
Neither did they claim you were or were not exposed to anything-
they made the OPPOSITE point, actually.
They didn't contradict the eyewitness accounts-they commented
on them. Such horrific events in the lives of people are WORTH
a little emotion and comment, most of us would agree.
They took nothing away from the accounts.
Making this about those who commented, however,
cheapens the accounts-as if it's not about the ruined lives
being rebuild after vpw, ha and lcm and others set aside
to treat God's wonderful children as disposable objects,
no more than a kleenex.
As you demonstrated, YOU decide for yourself what offends
you. That discussion of the offenses offends you when the
offenses do NOT strikes me as unusual, but it IS
your choice.
I just got back from a funeral.
During the entire proceedings, there were a number of discussions.
There were plenty of "talking-points" where I could have used
the matters discussed as a "springboard" to educate the attendees
as to the truth of Scripture concerning different things.
Having escaped both the physical and mental constructs of twi,
I did not do so.
In doing so, I would have felt like I demonstrated righteousness.
After all, I'm supposed to "expound the Scriptures more perfectly"
when I encounter error.
I chose to let the "opportunities" pass.
Was that because I'm a poor Christian.
(If so, I'll let God judge that.)
I made the conclusion that God would be better served if I
didn't treat His people like machines,
and instead treated them like people-
people that can suffer and hurt, people who can feel
pain and hesitations, people who bleed and breathe and
have mucus in their noses, people who, in short,
are human, imperfect, and nevertheless beloved of God.
I elected to allow people to feel their pain as normal,
and allow them to process it in ways that might have
been mathematically improved upon,
but were sufficient for the moment and WORKED.
Now then,
what did that have to do with this thread?
Simply this:
We're discussing suffering and victims.
There's tense emotions here.
When given the opportunity to mark off a checklist
on posts-
"you could have said this better", etc-
I elect to leave them alone.
These are humans, not machines, and the bigger
issues are of importance.
Now, then,
you can, personally, choose to consider their posts
inadequate or lacking in your own mind.
You can even choose to say so (and you did.)
However,
I'd recommend considering the net effect.
Did you minister grace to the hearers?
Have they grown in knowledge?
Or have you just demonstrated that hearts and lives
are incidental to you when there's the letter of the
law is at stake?
What would most people say when seeing your post?
Is that the message you MEANT to convey?
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dmiller
John -- Thank you for that.
I had forgotten that it was our integrity that gave them credence.
David
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Catcup
What's interesting about a predator is, they usually have what is considered a "personal myth" which they use to justify their own behavior.
I believe for these men, they felt God had called them to do it, that they had a God-given right to our bodies: VPW's self-proclaimed role as "The Teacher" encompassed teaching all areas of life, including your sexuality. It was part of his personal myth.
I'm not saying God called them to do it, I'm saying that's quite probably the sick and bizarre reasoning VP used to justify his actions. The personal myth is part of the psychological disorder of sexual predation, along with a constellation of other related aspects.
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dmiller
Good point. The *predators* I have met in my life all had that *personal myth* that empowered them to pull the crap they did over me, and anyone else that happened into the path they were taking.
And I am speaking of the non-religious, as well as the religious ones.
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johniam
quote: What would most people say when seeing your post?
Is that the message you MEANT to convey?
Yep! Consider 1 Thes. 4:13-18. It clearly says to comfort one another with THESE words, yet many church Christians deliberately reject THOSE words in favor of "he/she's in a better place" or "he/she's up there with Jesus". If the exact words in that scripture don't comfort them, then it's THEIR FAULT!!!!! It's not just about the letter of the law WW.
This "funeral" has been going on for 6 years.
quote: I made the conclusion that God would be better served if I
didn't treat His people like machines,
You don't think that endless suffering makes people into "pain machines"?
quote: elected to allow people to feel their pain as normal,
and allow them to process it in ways that might have
been mathematically improved upon,
but were sufficient for the moment and WORKED.
SIX YEARS!!! That is NOT "feeling pain as normal"!
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rascal
I don`t know what *normal* is.....but I certainly don`t understand NOT being deeply offended and disgusted by these accounts here <_<
In back tracking, I don`t really see any difference in my posts and those of other people offended by these predators .......but somehow I seem to consistantly draw your fire....some times to the point of derailing some really good threads....
I will refrain from further comments to you about your feelings about me.....because this thread simply isn`t about us.....feel free to pm me if you want to continue and I will attempt to address your concerns about my spirituality and well being there where it is more appropriate.
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rascal
I guess that you are right catcup....they really did seem to believe what they were selling.
But I wonder....if they believed it....if they believed that they were doing God`s will.....why did they so savage the lives and reputations of those that dissapointed them?
Why did they try to hurt people to the fullest extention of their power and influence?
I do not understand how they could figure that this would be a Godly or beneficial thing.
It takes something broken on the inside to want to hurt people like that....imo
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Catcup
When narcissism is blended into the toxic mix of what these men were about, you have a person who does not have a working conscience as you and I understand conscience. And without a conscience, they do not care who or how they hurt in order to elevate and please themselves.
You find it difficult to understand Rascal, because you've got one. A conscience, that is. Normal folks find it hard to understand, because the behavior is so far outside of what one would expect and the way a normal person thinks. And yes, there had to be something broken on the inside. Several things. Very, very broken.
That being said, it does not excuse what they did.
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Catcup
If you want to find out more about sexual predation and narcissism, I would recommend some APA journals if you are into deep reading. The on line journal site is http://www.apa.org/journals/homepage.html
However, you could google it, or check out an on-line encyclopedia like Wikipedia. But in my own personal observations I would think LCM and VPW were narcissistic in addition to other problems.
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markomalley
It seems to me that narcissism is the ultimate end of the theology they taught (and apparently believed). If you take a fresh look at the Word-Faith movement started by Kenyon, with its idolatry of self, and take it to the ridiculous, you end up with the theology promoted by TWI. It's simply a faulty theology based on the self rather than on God (IIRC, we were given that ridiculous 'Christians Should Be Prosperous' book as part of the piffle class...and IIRC, didn't the piffle class itself start up with wierwolf bemoaning the lack of material abundance of Christians, using John 10:10 to justify a position that Christ came to give us abundance in temporal things?)
The point is that, while hearing the degree of the abuse is sickening and shocking, the fact that there was abuse (but omg not to that degree) is understandable if you look at the theology behind the organization.
At least IMHO.
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Dot Matrix
IMO, to many, they were looking for Jesus and in the midst of hell God looked on their searching hearts and gave them the loving “good Way” that I was also a part. It was a time when we did function in a branch as one body and we were there for one another. I credit God for the love he let my little heart see. But the closer I got to HQS the more I saw the love was missing. Weird. So, back in the day when Joe G-arini, Eddie F-sher and others prayed for people and prayers were answered – they were great times. Yet, unbeknownst to me, trouble was brewing the whole time I sang from the blue book.
Imagine the shock, of going from a loving area into the heart of the ministry (HQS) and finding it to be dark, cold, and self-serving. It was shocking. Frankly, if someone told me of these “things” I would not have considered them to be truthful. But after years and years of people popping up all over with similar stories, I would have to be numb not to conclude that God was trying to set-me free from the WAY ministry and some how in that freedom get to know God better. What I had in the beginning of the Way was sweet. But now that I have been able to properly separate GOD from people who did dastardly deeds in his name, life is sweeter. The voice of God still whispers to me like pure water on a hot day and I have answers to prayer.
In April 2005, long after I saw VP for what he was, after I continued to seek a Lord of love, God spoke to my heart and told me a man with whom I was once in love was sick and I may want to write him. I hemmed a bit as I thought what do I say? But I wrote him and told him I had a feeling he was sick and had cancer. I wrote him about “us” and it was cathartic for me and freeing for him. My point? God still communicates with me -- long after The Way. God loves us. And to let go of “the fableized good legend of VP” did not take God from me, but opened my eyes and my heart for even more. Calling a spade a spade is not a bad thing. God still works in my life. This is not a criticism nor an attack, just conversation.
It seems to me, Jon- is saying pls don’t say things like we were all hurt, as he was not affected, in his manner of thinking. Rascal is speaking to those still sitting on the sidelines wondering what happened.
Her audience is wide, but does not address the few people who want to believe all was well with The Way because they were only touched by good things. Praise God Jon, that you were protected like that, I do not know why I wasn’t. I did not want to see VP naked or have him ask me things that I found insulting. It comes up again & again, in people trying to “put things together” and it does help them. This is not about you Jon, but more about the people who are still blown away by a group that could sing about the love of Jesus and display the selfish, harmful ways that Jesus was against.
I do not speak to have people be kind to me and say, “I am sorry for your pain.” I am in love with God and can call the devil the devil and his works his works and still love God. I am here for the pain that still encases others, and if visiting the history of that which has happened can do that, then I shall
I am not here for those who think it was sweet and no trouble lay a brew, I am here for the person who lost everything, or who is confused or guilty over perhaps nothing that is their fault, I am here for that guy and his sister, or his mother, or his son and daughter.
I believe that is the person to whom Rascal is speaking.
But the bigger point being made here, is deliverance to people who have wondered about Rochelle and others and what happened in a Bible Ministry to have suicides. I think this conversation/thread has answered some haunting questions. So, it is not about you said that in a way that offends me, we can be bigger, see God heal people from the pain of loss. See them find some understanding, isn't that the loving thing to do? Instead of finding away to make all this healing about "offending" you. Whomever "you" may be.
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Catcup
Dot that was fabulous and heart felt. Thank you and ex for having the courage to share a little bit of what happened to you. I know it isn't easy, but you never know who you may be helping in telling your story.
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Orbot Commander Mighty
dot matrix saw your posts and others soooo, much pain u seem like a kind human being. justice where is the justice - is God dead??? is his son coming back??? ... alot of pain here shared; dot thanxs for posts Ive been on this earth and ive seen alot mean and cruel things in various countries - wellll lets just say i am weeeelll traveled, i have never heard nor seen such evil,dark,treacherous,sinister,guile,malice,cover ups, such as these accounts. Dot I wish u the very best. U are a true warrior... you can chew dirt with me anytime. I wont post that much here anymore, I am some one who is just trying to find answers. I will continue to view the threads and read the posts.
Mighty Orbots Rules
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Watered Garden
Dot, that was one of the best posts I ever read on GSC or anywhere else. Thank you so much.
WG
Dot, that was one of the best posts I ever read on GSC or anywhere else. Thank you so much.
WG
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doojable
I would like to add something here. I keep thinking about the phrase, "Misery loves company." I think that saying could be extended to guilt, shame, avarice and any other evil. I truly believe that this predatorial behavior was systematically spread because it is very hard to call someone on the carpet if you are guilty of the same thing. Somewhere along the line someone was the first to witness vpw in his depravity. Doesn't it make sense that rather than try to convince that person that it was "just a one time thing." It was much easier to start some lie and get them involved in the same sin? Basically, I see how predators could have been raised up. Ordain them, give them houses, get them in paid positions where their liveliehoods and that of their families were dependant on their staying in the "good ole boys" club - and you have quite a system of sick and depraved error.
Like the sewer lines that run under our streets.... that is how I describe all the wrongs I have read here.
And jon - I hvae said more than once that twi didn't affect me the same as many of those who have posted here. That doesn't mean that it didn't happen, or that it isn't happening still. I knew a woman whose ordained husband was cheating on her. She nearly suffered a nervous breakdown because of the doubt that man instilled on her. And while he wasn't taking care of business at home he was wrecking believer's lives throughout the city- I became one of those casualities because I could have called him on the carpet - so he silenced me by declaring me as having left God and His word when in truth I had only left this man's group that he called a ministry. He even ORDAINED a woman that he had had an affair with because she demanded it in order to keep her silence! Now this woman goes around and announces that she is a WOG when all she is is a w#ore that turned the right trick at the right time.
People look at Auschwitz and reminisce over the wrongs done. They look at Pearl Harbor. Isn't it necessary to look at the past in order to keep from repeating the same mistakes in the future? ( I know there is a more eloquent quote - but I paraphased it anyway.)
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