quote:Because Dr. Wierwille was such an wonderful man of God, the adversary was highly motivated to obscure the significance of these final instructions from our father in the Word.
our father who art in fountain....
mike he's not my father
darn, i thought you were going to come out with the greatest secret in the world today. you did prove there is nothing new under the sun.
I'm amazed at how impatient everyone is to get all this in a thumbnail. It reminds me of 1987, when there was almost no info flowing, but within months everyone had made up their mind which splinter (or not) to be a part of. With relatively no information decisions were made back then that have never been reexamined, only built on, or piled on. I'm glad I was taught to take it slower. It sad how much information was lost or never considered by those who crystallized their stand on emotion and/or whichever leader happened to tickled their fancy.
In those early days I would always shop around for info because I wanted to decide more carefully. I noticed that no one here in SD did that except for one other person. When JL from CES would blow into town once every year, me and that one other person would always attend. We two would always be the only people from the other major camp, the GeerSplinters here in SD, as we mostly attended those fellowships at that time. No CES people would talk to GeerSplinters, and no GeerSplinters would talk to CESers.
Everyone huddled into a quickly decided upon group, and them the leaders would tell them to M&A all other grad groups. The same applied to the Craigites here, but they were in much smaller numbers. The same applies to most GreaseSpotters in my opinion. Lots of digginto their positions, little knowledge of what the others are doing. I urge patience and info gathering.
Re your comment: "So, here are the topics I deliberately ignore now that I’ve made my decision based on careful consideration of the facts and the truths: sex scandals, plagiarism, weather reports.... the list goes on,"
Basically aren't you simply saying "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up"?
And as far as the losses in your life due to your abject adherence to Wierwillian dogma, I've known numerous people over the years who've lost at least as much due to their unthinking obediance to alcohol, heroin, pornography, or other debilitating vices. The fact that your addiction has a veneer of respectability doesn't mitigate the harmfulness of it.
Although I doubt you'll pay any attention to this advice whatsoever (you know the TRUTH after all).
Why not take a break from your "Prophet of the true MOG" status for a few months and see things from a little different perspective for awhile? The change just might do you some good.
You also wrote: "Why not take a break from your "Prophet of the true MOG" status for a few months and see things from a little different perspective for awhile? The change just might do you some good."
What makes you think I haven't already tried that? I did. For almost ten years. Been there, done that.
It's only factual that a lot of people report it as such. I don't believe the details of those reports. Sorry. There was a time when I did. Now I don't because I dug a little deeper.
If Dr. Wierwille's publications were "God-breathed," then God is the real plagiarist. The good news is Dr. Wierwille may be all those other things, but he beats the plagiarism rap.
"So, here are the topics I deliberately ignore now that I’ve made my decision based on careful consideration of the facts and the truths: sex scandals, plagiarism, weather reports.... the list goes on,"
The sex scandals: which prove that he had an ulterior motive in his doctrine on abortion and his teachings on sexuality in general.
The plagiarism: which calls into question his integrity as a researcher, and his honesty as a presenter of God's Word.
The weather reports, which prove his rampant dishonesty when it comes to matters regarding his calling as a man of God.
Yeah, once those are dismissed, it's easy to talk about the covenant between VPW and God.
Most folks here have considered a lot more than you think they have. "All this" is nothing new.
Your whole spiel is premised on Wierwille's tale of God speaking to him audibly in 1942. If that happened as Wierwille described, then what you say could have some merit. If it didn't, then Wierwille was not only a lier and a fraud, but also A FALSE PROPHET, which is a pretty big deal to anyone who believes the Bible. Even if the tale were true, that would not mean that Wierwille didn't become a fraud and a false prophet afterwards.
You haven't offered a single reason for anyone to think that Wierwille's tale was true. The Bible offers a lot of reasons for Bible believers to think that Wierwille was a false prophet.
Mike, I feel compelled to make an observation that you might not agree with but might be worth considering, even though I'm committed to letting you say your piece and wind this out. I'm not sure how much contact you have with actual, living former PFAL grads, so bear with me for a sec.
"Mastering" PFAL isn't an impossible task nor is it one that has never been accomplished. Over the years it's taken on a somewhat mystical and vague "spiritual plateau" kind of aura. VP's instructions notwithstanding, any thinking person needs to really look at that honestly and clearly before embarking on a journey to accomplish it if that's what they want to do.
(VP states in your last lost teaching that is what people should do. I personally think that his perspective on how and what people were doing with his teaching was in reality somewhat clouded his final years, warped slightly by his perceptions that the ministry he had invested his life in had abandoned the precepts of what he felt important. He wasn't entirely in touch with the ministry as a whole, by any means, and had many unresolved issues with his own top leadership. That's not a criticism on face value, just a very general way of saying that VP was fighting a battle that was very much his own as well as his ministry's...Now, that's all debatable, but I'm not entering that to argue it, just to site that's my background opinion. To you this teaching represents some kind of clarity, but to me it's much like what he said over and over again over the years.)
PFAL, the series of 3 classes including Intermediate and Advanced, (although VP himself said oftentimes that everything was included in the Foundational PFAL) was a class on "Keys". He said he didn't intend to teach the bible from Genesis to Revelation, rather to teach the keys and principles that would open the bible to the student and allow them to learn and walk themselves.
As far as the CONTENT of PFAL, it's knowable. It seems huge the first time through, but anyone who made a reasonable effort soon realized that it was 12 sessions, each about 3 hours long, and with a few hours a month even at the minimum, it was learnable and knowable. The basic ideas, concepts and techniques aren't terribly difficult to learn. I think some of the ideas and conclusions don't add up quite the way he presented them, but that's another topic. Overall, he covered a lot of bible and got me reading it.
"Mastering" has different definitions, depending on the content. If learning the books of the bible is part of mastering it, then once memorized, you're done. Speaking in tongues, the same. Once you learn what it is and manifest, mastering it is to simply continue doing it. "Mastery" of S.I.T. was and is as easy to achieve as any of the things of God. It's not a grunt and groan "look what I did" kind of thing.
So please consider this: the difference between learning and mastering.
We see through a glass darkly and will NEVER "master" walking with God because 1) we won't know as we are known till we are gathered or raised with Christ, and 2) life isn't a mastery of anything, it's an ongoing process of growth and learning. Today we know as much as we can, tomorrow, the same and hopefully a little more.
He who becomes the "master" in his mind, is the slave of his own knowledge because he's stopped learning.
I'm fully aware that there are people "out there" who feel like you and are struggling with their own inner battles over "what happend and what went wrong". I can see how each must take their own course, and each will do that.
Just consider this - to many, the understanding of PFAL as a thing to master and maintain was an early part of the growth curve. Ultimately, one of the primary initiatives presented by VP was to take what he offered, learn it, and take it even further-do something with it, apply it somehow. Unfortunately, he didn't allow for the fact that such a "mastery" might include drastic change. But then, he was just a man like you and I.
I'm not trying to be egotistical, just offering this perspective. Give it a whirl.
----------------------
Is the time/space meter needle supposed to be jumping around like that? *tap-tap*...sqwrkltpzfttt@#$%^&!!!!!!.....
It's only factual that a lot of people report it as such. I don't believe the details of those reports. Sorry. There was a time when I did. Now I don't because I dug a little deeper.
I forget who first said this, but it's so worth repeating here:
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts. Wierwille's abuses, lies and indiscretions are facts. You may decide whether they outweigh his preaching and teaching ministry, but you are not entitled to decide whether or not they are facts. They are. Facts.
Go to the "Articles" section and read what Donald E. Dicks Master's thesis has to say. It is in PDF format, so you will need Adobe Acrobat. I'll attempt to convert my download of the paper and share snipets when and where needed.
This is part of what Mr. Dicks has to say about Wierwille's work in print. This is pertinent to your discussion of the "print/tape" record you are so fond about.
quote: APPENDIX C
DECHOMAI AND LAMBANO
This discussion is secondary to salvation because
Wierwille does acknowledge that someone may be born-againwithout speaking in tongues. However, by speaking intongues, one knows absolutely and objectively that God dwells in them and that they are saved.
Wierwille sees a distinction between a subjective
receiving and an objective receiving. On page three of Receiving the Holy Spirit Today he says:
Have you received the holy spirit, the power from on high? Many Christians believe that pneuma hagion , holy spirit, is automatically received at the time of salvation. They believe that when a person confesses Jesus Christ as his personal lord and savior, he receives
eternal life which is pneuma hagion , holy spirit.
This is not the whole truth. Apparently there is something more after salvation for the Christian to receive, lambano , into manifestation.
The objective reception is noted by means of speaking in tongues.
The major problem with Wierwille's argument for the distinction between dechomai and lambano is Wierwille's apparent limited knowledge of Greek. He defines dechomai as a subjective reception of holy spirit. Though he does not state the reason for his definitions, it may be because dechomai is a verb in the passive voice.
As H.E. Dana and J.R. Mantey in their Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament on page 161 state: "The passive voice is that use
of the verb which denotes the subject as receiving the action ." Thus, Wierwille may be defining dechomai as a passive, subjective, non-objective, personal verb based on its being in the passive voice.
What Wierwille fails to note, or know, is that
dechomai is a deponent verb. Deponent verbs are passive in voice, but active in meaning. From page 163 of their Grammar, Dana and Mantey explain:
Deponent verbs are those with middle or passive form, but active in meaning...The distinctive fact about the deponent verb is that its voice form is different from its voice function. Thus [ dechomai ] means I receive, and not I receive myself or I am received.
In other words, dechomai is a verb of action.
Lambano is in the active voice and is a verb of
action also. Both lambano and dechomai mean to receive or to take. To define one as a subjective reception and the other as an objective reception is an unwarranted distinction.
In Appendix I of Receiving the Holy Spirit Today , Wierwille lists "every reference in the New Testament where the roots dechomai and lambano are found." In truth,
Wierwille's lists are far from complete.
If Wierwille's PFAL series is in fact as stated by another? poster other than you then I think that God has lost His mind.
quote: "Some that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed."
"None that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed."
The second sentence is rather strained grammar and logic. It also
radically contradicts what Dr. wrote on page 34 of the Green Book: "...you
will find that every word I have written to you is true." I believe for
these and other reasons it must be rejected in favor of the first sentence.
Mike, for your own good, and those who love you, my advice is simple: Worship God and love Him, put Jesus Christ and his Father in the central part of your heart. Wierwille is NOT God.
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T-Bone
Great posts Rocky & Waysider ! Sometimes wierwille apologetics make me think of an Old Testament passage: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and
Bolshevik
He tells them to be joyful. Doesn't explain how. The Word says be joyful *POOF* you are now joyful. Like when claiming verses. Craftily disconnects the motive from the action. . . .
WordWolf
Yes. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master
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excathedra
our father who art in fountain....
mike he's not my father
darn, i thought you were going to come out with the greatest secret in the world today. you did prove there is nothing new under the sun.
i'm gonna let God sort all this stuff out, okay?
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Mike
Exy - I'm not done yet. Be patient. There's TONS more info to lay out.
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excathedra
yikey mikey i can't go thru all this shtuff
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MATILDA
...run like the wind and warn the village...
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Mike
I'm amazed at how impatient everyone is to get all this in a thumbnail. It reminds me of 1987, when there was almost no info flowing, but within months everyone had made up their mind which splinter (or not) to be a part of. With relatively no information decisions were made back then that have never been reexamined, only built on, or piled on. I'm glad I was taught to take it slower. It sad how much information was lost or never considered by those who crystallized their stand on emotion and/or whichever leader happened to tickled their fancy.
In those early days I would always shop around for info because I wanted to decide more carefully. I noticed that no one here in SD did that except for one other person. When JL from CES would blow into town once every year, me and that one other person would always attend. We two would always be the only people from the other major camp, the GeerSplinters here in SD, as we mostly attended those fellowships at that time. No CES people would talk to GeerSplinters, and no GeerSplinters would talk to CESers.
Everyone huddled into a quickly decided upon group, and them the leaders would tell them to M&A all other grad groups. The same applied to the Craigites here, but they were in much smaller numbers. The same applies to most GreaseSpotters in my opinion. Lots of digginto their positions, little knowledge of what the others are doing. I urge patience and info gathering.
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George Aar
Mike,
Re your comment: "So, here are the topics I deliberately ignore now that I’ve made my decision based on careful consideration of the facts and the truths: sex scandals, plagiarism, weather reports.... the list goes on,"
Basically aren't you simply saying "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up"?
And as far as the losses in your life due to your abject adherence to Wierwillian dogma, I've known numerous people over the years who've lost at least as much due to their unthinking obediance to alcohol, heroin, pornography, or other debilitating vices. The fact that your addiction has a veneer of respectability doesn't mitigate the harmfulness of it.
Although I doubt you'll pay any attention to this advice whatsoever (you know the TRUTH after all).
Why not take a break from your "Prophet of the true MOG" status for a few months and see things from a little different perspective for awhile? The change just might do you some good.
geo.
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Mike
No, George. If you read my posts more carefully you'll see I'm saying:
"Don't waste my time and yours with the facts. I've already seen them all, long before you did, and I've FINALLY made up my mind."
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QamiQazi
Matilda, you are way too funny!
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Mike
George,
You also wrote: "Why not take a break from your "Prophet of the true MOG" status for a few months and see things from a little different perspective for awhile? The change just might do you some good."
What makes you think I haven't already tried that? I did. For almost ten years. Been there, done that.
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excathedra
listen, if i find out in heaven that you are right, i promise i'll eat my halo
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George Aar
So the fact that VPW was a blatant plagiarist, serial rapist, liar, conman, and egomaniacal psychopath, is all simply irrelevent?
geo.
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QamiQazi
excathedra, just don't tell me if it tastes like chicken.
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Mike
May I grind some pepper for you, mam?
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Mike
George, that's an OPINION not a fact.
It's only factual that a lot of people report it as such. I don't believe the details of those reports. Sorry. There was a time when I did. Now I don't because I dug a little deeper.
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QamiQazi
If Dr. Wierwille's publications were "God-breathed," then God is the real plagiarist. The good news is Dr. Wierwille may be all those other things, but he beats the plagiarism rap.
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Mike
QQ - You're getting closer to the truth. Keep thinking through the details, but take off you Grease brain.
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George Aar
Mike,
Re:"I don't believe the details of those reports"
See my first post.
geo.
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Raf
Actually, let's look at those topics again...
"So, here are the topics I deliberately ignore now that I’ve made my decision based on careful consideration of the facts and the truths: sex scandals, plagiarism, weather reports.... the list goes on,"
The sex scandals: which prove that he had an ulterior motive in his doctrine on abortion and his teachings on sexuality in general.
The plagiarism: which calls into question his integrity as a researcher, and his honesty as a presenter of God's Word.
The weather reports, which prove his rampant dishonesty when it comes to matters regarding his calling as a man of God.
Yeah, once those are dismissed, it's easy to talk about the covenant between VPW and God.
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LG
Mike,
Most folks here have considered a lot more than you think they have. "All this" is nothing new.
Your whole spiel is premised on Wierwille's tale of God speaking to him audibly in 1942. If that happened as Wierwille described, then what you say could have some merit. If it didn't, then Wierwille was not only a lier and a fraud, but also A FALSE PROPHET, which is a pretty big deal to anyone who believes the Bible. Even if the tale were true, that would not mean that Wierwille didn't become a fraud and a false prophet afterwards.
You haven't offered a single reason for anyone to think that Wierwille's tale was true. The Bible offers a lot of reasons for Bible believers to think that Wierwille was a false prophet.
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QamiQazi
Mike, your remarks do not absolve you of the responsibility to answer honest questions honestly, if you can. Can you? Probably not.
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socks
Mike, I feel compelled to make an observation that you might not agree with but might be worth considering, even though I'm committed to letting you say your piece and wind this out. I'm not sure how much contact you have with actual, living former PFAL grads, so bear with me for a sec.
"Mastering" PFAL isn't an impossible task nor is it one that has never been accomplished. Over the years it's taken on a somewhat mystical and vague "spiritual plateau" kind of aura. VP's instructions notwithstanding, any thinking person needs to really look at that honestly and clearly before embarking on a journey to accomplish it if that's what they want to do.
(VP states in your last lost teaching that is what people should do. I personally think that his perspective on how and what people were doing with his teaching was in reality somewhat clouded his final years, warped slightly by his perceptions that the ministry he had invested his life in had abandoned the precepts of what he felt important. He wasn't entirely in touch with the ministry as a whole, by any means, and had many unresolved issues with his own top leadership. That's not a criticism on face value, just a very general way of saying that VP was fighting a battle that was very much his own as well as his ministry's...Now, that's all debatable, but I'm not entering that to argue it, just to site that's my background opinion. To you this teaching represents some kind of clarity, but to me it's much like what he said over and over again over the years.)
PFAL, the series of 3 classes including Intermediate and Advanced, (although VP himself said oftentimes that everything was included in the Foundational PFAL) was a class on "Keys". He said he didn't intend to teach the bible from Genesis to Revelation, rather to teach the keys and principles that would open the bible to the student and allow them to learn and walk themselves.
As far as the CONTENT of PFAL, it's knowable. It seems huge the first time through, but anyone who made a reasonable effort soon realized that it was 12 sessions, each about 3 hours long, and with a few hours a month even at the minimum, it was learnable and knowable. The basic ideas, concepts and techniques aren't terribly difficult to learn. I think some of the ideas and conclusions don't add up quite the way he presented them, but that's another topic. Overall, he covered a lot of bible and got me reading it.
"Mastering" has different definitions, depending on the content. If learning the books of the bible is part of mastering it, then once memorized, you're done. Speaking in tongues, the same. Once you learn what it is and manifest, mastering it is to simply continue doing it. "Mastery" of S.I.T. was and is as easy to achieve as any of the things of God. It's not a grunt and groan "look what I did" kind of thing.
So please consider this: the difference between learning and mastering.
We see through a glass darkly and will NEVER "master" walking with God because 1) we won't know as we are known till we are gathered or raised with Christ, and 2) life isn't a mastery of anything, it's an ongoing process of growth and learning. Today we know as much as we can, tomorrow, the same and hopefully a little more.
He who becomes the "master" in his mind, is the slave of his own knowledge because he's stopped learning.
I'm fully aware that there are people "out there" who feel like you and are struggling with their own inner battles over "what happend and what went wrong". I can see how each must take their own course, and each will do that.
Just consider this - to many, the understanding of PFAL as a thing to master and maintain was an early part of the growth curve. Ultimately, one of the primary initiatives presented by VP was to take what he offered, learn it, and take it even further-do something with it, apply it somehow. Unfortunately, he didn't allow for the fact that such a "mastery" might include drastic change. But then, he was just a man like you and I.
I'm not trying to be egotistical, just offering this perspective. Give it a whirl.
----------------------
Is the time/space meter needle supposed to be jumping around like that? *tap-tap*...sqwrkltpzfttt@#$%^&!!!!!!.....
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Raf
I forget who first said this, but it's so worth repeating here:
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts. Wierwille's abuses, lies and indiscretions are facts. You may decide whether they outweigh his preaching and teaching ministry, but you are not entitled to decide whether or not they are facts. They are. Facts.
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Sudo
Hey guys,
Click HERE!.. anybody want more of the same??
[This message was edited by Sudo on December 27, 2002 at 12:28.]
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firebee
Here is a site that might interest you Mike.
http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/w17.html
Go to the "Articles" section and read what Donald E. Dicks Master's thesis has to say. It is in PDF format, so you will need Adobe Acrobat. I'll attempt to convert my download of the paper and share snipets when and where needed.
This is part of what Mr. Dicks has to say about Wierwille's work in print. This is pertinent to your discussion of the "print/tape" record you are so fond about.
If Wierwille's PFAL series is in fact as stated by another? poster other than you then I think that God has lost His mind.
Mike, for your own good, and those who love you, my advice is simple: Worship God and love Him, put Jesus Christ and his Father in the central part of your heart. Wierwille is NOT God.
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